Time Nick Message 06:30 ghoti Is it possible to have multiple minetest processes using the same postgresql back end without corrupting the world? 09:51 hecks So why was the IRC moved? 09:52 VanessaE google "freenode imploded: 09:52 VanessaE " 09:53 VanessaE you'll find out all you need to know 09:53 hecks :o 09:53 hecks haha what the hell 09:53 VanessaE but in short, hostile takeover, original staff resigned, this network came into prominence, and here we are 09:54 VanessaE and the original freenode more or less went offline entirely several days ago 10:09 sfan5 ghoti: if thy use different table/db names sure 10:39 independent56 ok, i have banned "server", "admin", and "56i". misleading nicknames, go away! 11:19 pGXcAyUuIfTH 5ePaRAtI5m kI1l5 1RC, dO not beTr4Y fre3NodE 11:20 EGvhlXiribcP SeP4r4TisM K1L15 1RC, d0 not betR4y frE3nODE 11:25 JMSYcEyNoEZz Join fREENod3 SIdE, wE HAv3 c00KIE5&freE bnC 11:25 uTOIxtpjKmNU lur1N9 FReENOD3 u53rS hEr3 IS 1mpUdeNt thEFt 11:28 entuland "free bnc" what is even that ahahha 11:33 hecks can we like 11:34 hecks make all those admins fight to the death in the arena for our amusement instead of making us put up with this 11:57 entuland +1 11:57 entuland but just those on the other side, among each other 12:02 ghoti sfan5: I was thinking more of using the *same* tables, i.e. making multiple minetest front-end servers using a common postgresql back end. 12:07 ghoti As for free BNC... My guess is that it's a desperate attempt to win back market share for 10BASE2, which of course is just as likely to resurge as Freenode. :P 12:11 entuland so BNC there stands for a type of cable? 12:16 specing entuland: freenode started providing free bouncers to everyone 12:17 entuland oh that makes more sense 12:18 hecks and free spam 12:18 hecks but what if it's the libera admins false flagging... i trust neither, ok? 12:38 shrikant Hello! How is `uses` working with tool when tool used as weapon? 12:46 sfan5 punch_attack_uses controls that 12:46 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/stable-5/doc/lua_api.txt#L7248-L7254 13:09 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/s5OLq4E 13:09 independent56 why isn't my TNT working properly, and not destroying this part of the tower? 13:13 specing Tbh with all the logging happening via matrix, irc and personal bouncers, it'd be stupid to not implement the IRC history extension and providing that to everyone 13:13 sfan5 https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory btw 13:14 Krock specing: what? https://irc.minetest.net/ 13:14 shrikant sfan5: thank you 13:14 erlehmann specing xmpp is the only protocol where i have seen interoperable history actually 13:15 erlehmann everything else seems to be either too old if open standard or some company that thinks you could … gasp … go somewhere else 13:15 erlehmann i mean the freenode story kinda proves that it's really really hard to alienate users and keeping them 13:16 erlehmann if they only need to change a server address and can keep using their software stack 13:16 erlehmann Is it possible to have multiple minetest processes using the same postgresql back end without corrupting the world? 13:16 erlehmann ghoti what exactly are you trying to do? 13:17 ghoti erlehmann: I am trying to write a lua script that will be executed by cron, and will read the data inside xban.db. 13:18 erlehmann uh oh 13:18 erlehmann no idea then 13:18 erlehmann i thought maybe it could be side stepped 13:19 ghoti Oh wait, I am having multiple conversations here. Sorry, wrong one. 13:20 ghoti erlehmann: re the multiple server thing, I want to have a small collection of minetest servers sharing a world to help scale to accommodate load. 13:21 ghoti It's just an idea though, it could be foiled by record locking or non-transactional db updates or any number of things. 13:21 sfan5 you picked a hard if not impossible problem 13:21 sfan5 unless the area of the world active would never overlap but then why share it? 13:21 ghoti The xban.db issue is entirely separate, and I'm asking about that in #lua. :-) 13:23 ghoti sfan5: I am still learning about what parts of a minetest server tax what parts of a system or network. If CPU or memory becomes a problem, clamping down on the number of users seems to be the current best practice. 13:23 erlehmann ghoti which mod are you using that generates so much load? 13:24 ghoti erlehmann: none at all, this is theoretical. 13:24 sfan5 the main bottleneck is certainly the single threaded mainloop of the server 13:24 sfan5 however there's almost always some moderately easy optimization potential in mods 13:25 ghoti That's what I was thinking, and the migration to postgres definitely bought a performance boost for me. 13:25 sfan5 if you know where to look 13:26 ghoti As I said, I am not trying to solve a problem that I am currently having. Just exploring how things might be done in the future. I will experiment a little. 13:26 ghoti I'm thinking that if, for example. two people mine a block, they are affecting a memory object that has been copied to the client, and when the client completes an action it sends an update to the server to record the change to the world. 13:27 ghoti If the client were to *lock* the affected node when digging begins, it would increase traffic, but allow for a second server not to permit actions on the affected block. 13:27 ghoti er, I mean node, not block (which i realize has another meaning) 13:28 sfan5 what matters is the block though 13:28 sfan5 it's the smallest unit stored in the db and thereforce the minimum you'd have to lock 13:29 ghoti Ah, okay. So at best, I could expect one person's activity in a block to lock out other people in the same block. 13:30 entuland yep, looks like something that could screw things up or slow them down it two players happen to be handled by two different servers and building in the same mapblock 13:30 sfan5 but there's much bigger synchronization issues: cached map blocks, inventory, lua state, entities, ... 13:32 ghoti True. Perhaps a future goal might be a "multi-server" option that turns on the high traffic synchronization for all of these things as a server option. 13:32 ghoti ButI I understand there would not be huge demand for this. 13:34 specing Eh, this isn't a problem. Even if you have a protected area you can still dig the node client-side, the server will just "place it back immidiately" (deny the dig) and you wont get the lump/node in your inventory 13:34 specing In the case of two people digging, it just gives the node to the first one or something 13:35 ghoti .. and appears as "lag" to the second player? 13:35 specing ghoti: note that digging is actually two commands: START_DIGGING and DIGGING_COMPLETE 13:35 ghoti specing: is each of those commands sent to the server when it is triggered in the client? 13:36 specing I think so. At least I have to send both from CSM if I want the node dug 13:36 ghoti Perhaps this *will* be possible without major server surgery. I will experiment. 13:36 ghoti Thanks very much, both of you. 13:37 specing As for the "lag", if minetest was serious about CSMs, you could have a local mod that interfaces with areas server mod and prevent the dig animation to even happen for protected areas 13:38 ghoti Ooh, true, I always forget about CSMs. 13:38 specing I suppose you could do the same to cancel digging nodes that someone else is already working on 13:38 ghoti I like that idea. 13:38 specing but I don't think it's worthwhile, most of the tools used are crazy fast 13:39 specing Actually, I think this is doable in the official client already, at least the register_on_punchnode is ppart of official API 13:39 specing as are modchannels 13:40 specing so you can have a CSM that receives area info from server via modchannel and then returns true in on_punchnode if local player is not on the list 13:42 specing and same CSM could also receive data about nodes being dug in close proximity 13:42 specing and could perhaps even animate them as being dug (with a more advanced client) 13:42 specing so they aren't just disappearing 13:44 ghoti That sounds great. 13:45 ghoti I will explore, thanks. 14:00 shrikant https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/tools.html there are two termins - rating of node in groupcap and level of node in groupcap. Are node rating and node level different termins? 14:31 BigBear shrikant - level is not the same as rating. e.g. {cracky = 3 , level = 2} might be on a node, but i havn't experimented with level much myself. 14:43 shrikant BigBear: is cracky = 3 - rating? 14:44 BigBear yes 14:48 BigBear so cracky=3 will dig fairly quickly/easily with pickaxe, but the level=2 means you still can't dig it at all with a stone pickaxe because it is maxlevel = 1. 14:48 BigBear (i think) 14:49 BigBear the timings combine the level and the rating (cracky) values in combination with the tool timings 14:50 shrikant Can i brake pickaxe when digging only N blocks of stone faster, then digging N nodes level=1? 14:58 shrikant BigBear: thank you 15:00 BigBear the higher the max level of the tool, compared to the level of the node, the more 'uses' you get out of it. So higher level nodes wear tool more. 15:01 shrikant hmm... Interesting 15:02 shrikant There is no one count of durability. 15:04 BigBear yeah, so with one pickaxe you can dig more blocks of stone than blocks of obsidian before breaking. 15:04 shrikant But how this minetest's "durability" store in world? 15:05 shrikant in files 15:10 BigBear so the durability is the 'uses' on the tool definition, but i think you might be asking about *wear* which is stored against the tool - similar to param1 and param2 on nodes i guess 15:15 calcul0n__ wear is stored in item's metadata 15:15 calcul0n__ (iirc) 15:17 calcul0n__ ho i'm wrong, that's a specific feature: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/items/inventories.html#wear 15:19 BigBear yeah i noticed it had its own 'set_wear' , wasn't sure about actual under-the-bonnet implimentation though. 15:20 independent56 ugh, can the aincent civilisatioins who built dungeons build better? i am sick and tired of rennovating dungeons and finding weird walls. 15:21 BigBear bit late, they are long dead i think :p, weird how? 15:34 independent56 hmm 15:35 independent56 yeah, should jave used past tense. and wow... they spread all over the map 0_0 15:35 independent56 why were they so much better at conquering then me? 15:36 hecks that's why they're dead, they got stuck in their cobble homes after forgetting to build stairs 15:39 BigBear you know i remember seeing on tv the oldest known organised human civilisations, and they didn't have individual houses, they had their homes as a warren of small rooms all built together, and they would climb out the roof to enter and leave, and walk over the flat roof to get anywhere 15:40 independent56 XD 15:40 independent56 anyways, does anyone recognise the playername "talex"? this is the second time he played on my server. 15:41 hecks why, did he do something? 15:41 independent56 joined for a second time. 15:41 shrikant lol 15:41 independent56 i ave only had visitors, who play once and say "latency :face_vomiting:" 15:42 BigBear lol 15:42 shrikant independent56: he want to say it twice :D 15:42 independent56 XD 15:43 independent56 then explain this: 15:43 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/o8xuHyb 15:48 independent56 wb ywang 15:51 independent56 the advtrains issue is fixed by just not using the broken track section. (maybe i shouldn't say fixed, maybe i should say "hacked") 16:05 GNUHacker hi 16:10 BigBear do you think anyone actually plays minetest with the Lojban locale? 16:12 independent56 yes. i use it. english is too vouge 16:16 BigBear vague? or vogue? English is an awful language, but if the purpose of language is to communicate to actual people... 16:16 BigBear adoption is kinda important 16:18 BigBear like ip4 16:28 independent56 haha 16:29 Krock BigBear: so apparently there's exactly one person :P 16:30 SwissalpS one person still on ipv4 or what? 16:31 Krock context. Lojban language. 16:31 SwissalpS sorry, I need to go read the log before asking :/ 17:54 independent56 so... you're telling me that the freenode network, wich has lived 26 good years has died? oh my god... 17:55 independent56 fuck this andrew guy. 18:04 specing independent56: no, freenode just changed the name to libera 18:05 specing ugh, the discord bridge is back, time to stop chatting 18:05 entuland eheheh 18:05 independent56 phew... oh wait 18:05 hecks we're still on freenode, some rich korean just stole the name, that's all 18:07 independent56 haha oh yeah 18:12 independent56 what is //deleteblocks but for strictly the selection, and not the mapblock? 18:20 MTDiscord umm.. deleteblocks regenrates an area and removes every modification happened after the server was first created.. thats what i know 18:20 MTDiscord (in the selected area) 18:20 MTDiscord (and that area is bigger than the place you select with //1 and //2) 18:22 independent56 i know that. and it was a pain. i want to remove the blocks, but make the landscape come back. i am doing this right next to a building. 18:23 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/855875378279219250/Screenshot_2021-06-19-21-25-55.png 18:23 MTDiscord Its desicription ^ 18:24 MTDiscord Works according to mapblocks so if you selected a bit from the next mapblock it will delete the whole mapblock 18:26 MTDiscord Well deleteblocks isnt safe near buildings but you can try that (not 100% safe) going 17 blocks away in the direction of the area you want to delete and select the pos1 and 2 as 1 block and do the command 18:26 independent56 i want //deleteblocks, but it would remove the blocks and regrow natre in the section. something liek "//clear" or "//removeblocks" 18:27 MTDiscord well you can set the place to air if you need "//removeblocks" 18:27 MTDiscord That will not regen the area tho 18:29 sfan5 it would be possible to have the mapgen regenerate the section on a copy of the map and only copy the wanted parts back 18:29 sfan5 but such thing do not exist right now 18:33 independent56 sad 18:37 independent56 have you any poor experience with "maja3"? they joined my server 18:47 independent56 how do i disable ABM logging? 18:48 independent56 http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/htdocs/view/56b49f19 18:59 independent56 oh and also, we have these inconsistencies like "enable_setting_thing = true" and "setting_thing = true" and "disable_setting_thing = true". why do we do this? it is inconsistency! 19:02 MTDiscord the only thing consistent about minetest is its inconsistencies 19:03 independent56 XD 19:13 Krock open an issue about it 19:13 Krock nobody will care 19:14 sfan5 even with an open issue it's not worth changing 19:14 Krock you can disable the ABM logs by modifying the source or setting the log level to ERROR 19:15 Krock or better: optimize them so that they're not triggered in first place 19:23 independent56 hmm... if only my world.mt was'nt 30 mb 19:24 Krock why is your world.mt 30 mb? 19:29 specing in unrelated news, independent56 figures out that running a server isn't a piece of cake 19:29 independent56 XD 19:30 independent56 i actually like all this shit wich computers throw at me. it's much better then IRL shit. 19:30 independent56 or maybe i have stockholm syndrome :thinking: 19:37 independent56 crap 19:37 independent56 must be the minetest server hogging all network 19:37 independent56 shutting down the server 19:38 independent56 *minetest server 19:42 entuland independent56, there seems to be just too much stuff accessible on that server of yours 19:42 independent56 like what? 0_0 19:42 entuland I can't tell how much of that is on purpose or not, but you may want to prevent file listing and accessing ini files and the alike 19:43 entuland http://2.26.38.198/Stikked/docker/ 19:43 independent56 oh god! i never know that existed 0_0 19:43 * independent56 searches up how to disable file browsing XAMPP 19:45 y5nw since it uses apache I think .htaccess should be enough 19:45 MTDiscord lol 19:45 specing lol 19:45 specing indepwned56 19:46 independent56 i know... i am trying to solve the error, but i am slow 19:52 Krock the blog is kinda cringe 19:53 Krock and the main page spells "dokuwiki" wrong 19:53 Krock hence 404 error 19:55 independent56 oh fuck 19:55 Krock hey entuland add yourself to the wiki before it's too late 8) 19:56 independent56 idrc about my blog. my server, so i choose what i put on it. 19:56 * entuland giggles 19:56 Krock :D 19:57 entuland gotta love UTF-8: "You have reached 56i’s IP address" 19:58 independent56 the page isn't protected because it is a //wiki//. it is for public editing 19:58 Krock noooo 19:58 Krock somebody removed it 19:59 independent56 i did 19:59 independent56 and i disabled editing 19:59 independent56 i am an admin, so i do what i like on my servrr 19:59 Krock entuland: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=top_secret_hideout_place 19:59 Krock but don't share pls 19:59 entuland ahahahah 20:00 entuland let's start an edit fight 20:00 Krock well it's game over 20:00 entuland already? oh my 20:00 Krock i56 doesn't think that it's funny 20:00 entuland I should have PMed everyone but i56 :P 20:00 independent56 >:-> 20:00 Krock :3 20:01 independent56 admins will always win. i learnt the hard way 20:01 Krock until we get admin privs 20:01 independent56 *restores yesterday's backup* 20:01 Krock *deletes backups* 20:01 entuland http://gph.is/2gE3XZv 20:02 Krock https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_cloud.png 20:02 independent56 yeah... i should stop keeping my password as "123456" 20:03 independent56 XDXD that joke is funny 20:03 independent56 http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=server 20:03 independent56 have a look 20:03 independent56 i might as well disable port forwading 20:04 independent56 404 XD 20:04 Krock https://i.postimg.cc/WpgHGxj2/why.png 20:04 Krock 123456 is not working 20:05 independent56 did you think i was that stupid? 20:05 Krock perhaps 20:05 MTDiscord no, but its probably something similarly stupid 20:05 Alias Try "raspberry" 20:06 MTDiscord hunter2 20:06 independent56 *disables wireless networking on the webbook* 20:06 Krock Alias: not working. Benrob: not working, already tried 20:06 independent56 one command - "nmcli radio wifi off" 20:08 independent56 portforwarding disabled 20:09 MTDiscord "there is this weird channel on the Minetest Discord where dozens of bots interact with each other all the time, and they kinda make some sort of sense sometimes, the AI there is flexing some serious ML" 20:10 MTDiscord ? 20:10 Krock your server is offline 20:11 Krock and I just found another possible exploit 20:11 Krock please i56 start it again 20:11 MTDiscord the cable passes through a guillotine hole connected to a big fat red button 20:12 Krock why not to a lego? you're more likely to hit that 20:12 Krock with your feet at least 20:12 independent56 ok... fine. just HTTPS port forwarding this time 20:12 Krock rip SSH 20:12 entuland oh nice, 1-1 20:13 Krock hmmm http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=do_not_open_this_image.png 20:14 Krock is this supposed to be there 20:14 independent56 will be removed as soon as i am able to 20:14 MTDiscord Hahaha 20:14 independent56 probably using the guilotine method of ssh rm 20:14 independent56 *sudo rm 20:15 Krock I could upload Minetest there 20:15 Krock yep 20:16 entuland independent56, just for the records, when you have such a pierced system the best thing you can do is probably put it immediately offline to be thoroughly checked (it's not like you're getting sued for interruption of service) 20:16 Krock guys there's now a somewhat trustworthy official Minetest mirror: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?ns=mods%3A&image=mods%3Aminetest-5.4.1-win64.zip&do=media&tab_files=files&tab_details=view 20:16 Krock *cough* /s 20:16 entuland someone else may have spotted such issues before I did days ago 20:16 independent56 XD nah 20:16 entuland that's your call 20:16 entuland your system may have a few dozen backdoors installed already 20:16 independent56 yeah... i need to fix that. time for more sysadmin work 20:16 Krock hey. the page is down again 20:17 independent56 i took it down 20:17 Krock I hope you've got that Minetest copy 20:18 MTDiscord and pray tell what fun and games did you put in it? 20:19 Krock none. I just grabbed the 5.4.1 Win64 build 20:20 MTDiscord shame 20:20 Krock the file limit was 128 MB so I could've uploaded a development build with pointer sanity checks built-in. 30.3 MB for the executable alone 20:21 independent56 ok, i am making a tiddlywiki note so i can fix these problems. 20:22 Krock but make sure nobody can edit that note 20:22 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/uGG20e6 20:22 independent56 it is on a local file, on my main computer. it has no port forwarding rules enabled 20:22 independent56 im adding "run by 14 yr old on first peak of dunning-kruger" 20:28 entuland eheheh, nice one 20:29 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/oVurkgq 20:29 independent56 note made 20:33 MTDiscord In case anyone is wondering: yes, taking wuzzy's old mods and trying to get them running in recent MT versions is tedious. But the programming style is not that bad 20:36 independent56 i'll take it back online when the issues get fixed. 20:53 MTDiscord Honestly TiddlyWiki makes for a decent website in general, especially with the Github and Gitlab back ends that push a commit to the repo 20:58 independent56 i love tiddlywiki. i wouldnt use it online, but i would use it as a personal notebook 20:58 independent56 and i do 21:29 independent56 wiki is now fixed 21:31 mckayshirou wich is the chance that 100 differently-coded/themed mods would crash, collide? 21:31 mckayshirou (dreambuiilder pack, homedecor-xdecor etc, many mobs mods, and custom shadows) 21:31 independent56 you might hit the 36 K node limit 21:31 independent56 ~ 21:36 MTDiscord 32K* 21:36 mckayshirou i mean, wich lua error can happen 21:37 independent56 file listing disabled 21:37 mckayshirou at runtime ¬_¬ 21:41 independent56 entuland, do you think it is a good idea to open my server up again? 21:43 independent56 Krock, i will open up the sever. 21:47 entuland can't tell, I'm not a security expert and I have no idea of what you have patched among the potential flaws 21:47 independent56 expectable 21:48 independent56 http://2.26.38.198/wordpress/2021/06/19/breakdown/ 21:53 independent56 can't be bothered being awake, port forwarding disabled 21:55 specing lol 21:55 independent56 well goodnight, i have just realised how little i know, 21:56 mckayshirou gonna run 1 hundred mods on 1gb ram... praying to god 21:56 MTDiscord that's a good base to increase your knowledge, don't worry