Time Nick Message 00:37 MTDiscord Is this an official organization of the Minetest dev team? https://github.com/minetest-game-mods 00:40 sfan5 no 00:41 MTDiscord ? 00:49 MTDiscord I should be able to use the content manager as long as curl was enabled in my build shouldn't I? Its not retrieving any content. 00:52 MTDiscord no, @《cURL》 has one thats actually kept up to date tho 00:53 MTDiscord @AntumDeluge https://github.com/minetest-game 00:54 MTDiscord That's official? 00:54 MTDiscord no, but actually kept up to date unlike the other 00:56 MTDiscord Who maintains it? BuckarooBanzay? I see he/she created a script for separating the mods: https://github.com/minetest-game/repo_slicer 00:57 MTDiscord yes 00:57 MTDiscord its useful if you want specific mtg mods as a submodule for a modpack/game 00:57 MTDiscord Official enough then. ? 00:59 MTDiscord I was confused at first because in my comment just before this one I mentioned "curl". So I thought you were referring to it. 01:00 MTDiscord thats nicks for ya 01:01 MTDiscord I was going to ask "I'm guessing that @《cURL》 is BuckarooBanzay?". But I see now that the profile image is the same. 01:02 MTDiscord So why wouldn't my desktop client build be able to access content.minetest.net? Is it because it is a dev build? 01:04 MTDiscord how old is it? i think nrz broke one of the dev builds a while back 01:05 MTDiscord It's built from master Git branch. 01:05 MTDiscord he also broke copying a while back 01:06 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest/tree/c47313db6 01:08 MTDiscord I disabled leveldb, luajit, & redis. But none of those have anything to do with network connections do they? 01:15 MTDiscord interesting, can find the copy paste issue (was fixed) but not the content one atm 01:17 MTDiscord here we go https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11245/files 01:20 MTDiscord There is a recent commit about curl_timeout, but that is probably not related: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/b56a028d6bc101cb01f5bdfe07053ac1af9fb016 07:26 independent56 i think this captures the spirit of the slow lowlands perfectly: http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/detail.php?id=human_areas%3Aslow_lowlands&media=buildings:sl:viaduct_spaghetti.png 08:06 independent56 wait... NOW you're telling me i cant host a minetest server in a minetest server? https://imgur.com/a/zgH2Pfa 10:45 definitely_a hello, everytime I try to create a world in MTG, it generates with no grass or dirt layer. Any idea what could cause this, please? Minetest 5.5.0. Thanks 10:47 sfan5 sounds like you have mapgen settings wrong in your minetest.conf 10:48 definitely_a Probably, lemme check. 10:52 definitely_a Somehow I had managed to disable biomes... it's fixed thanks a lot. 11:46 erlehmann he also broke copying a while back 11:47 erlehmann Jonathon, copying? 11:47 erlehmann he also broke copying a while back 11:48 erlehmann is it possible to get the minetest version of the server via a lua command? 11:52 sfan5 minetest.get_version() 12:02 specing I wish we could place_node with arbitrary rotation via CSM (by varying above/under), but it seems that the only result if I change above/under is the position where the node is placed. And this happens only if I change the z coordinate (with viewport (1,0,0)), else the node is simply not placed D: 12:07 entuland above and under should relate to the face you're aiming at - under should always be the occupied position, owning the face you are aiming at, and above should be the free one, right in front of that face regardless of the orientation 12:08 entuland comparing the coordinates of above and under you can tell the orientation of the aiming and perform the placement somewhere else according to that 12:08 entuland at least that's my recollection about the last time I had to deal with that (and that's a while ago) 12:10 entuland some nodes can't be placed in arbitrary rotations or positions (doors, for instance, require 2 free positions on the vertical and can't be placed sideways) 12:11 specing I was testing with furnces mid-air, so space shouldn't have been a problem 12:11 specing furnaces* 12:12 specing Perhaps air is the problem, but those +-z test placements worked mid-air, so... 12:13 entuland I'm a bit confused about the above/under thing if you're placing nodes in arbitrary positions - you should be free to place anything in any position, provided it's free, the above/under should come into play only when there is a player interaction (place callbacks, punch callbacks or the alike) 12:13 entuland perhaps I'm failing to see your exact context 12:18 erlehmann entuland so CSMs can place upside down corner stairs just so? 12:19 entuland corner stairs are probably a special case due to some automatic system that renders them as corners instead of regular stairs 12:19 entuland but you can rotate stairs upside down IIRC 12:19 entuland let me do one test 12:19 specing There's no indication of that being possible 12:20 specing entuland: yes you can, with a screwdriver 12:20 entuland oh I mean rotating a _corner_ stair 12:22 entuland actually, do we even have corner stairs in MTG? 12:22 specing entuland: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/ea7da386/ 12:22 entuland I may be mixing things up with other games 12:23 entuland erlehmann, how do you get corner stairs in MTG? 12:24 entuland I know I can place and rotate stuff cause I did that with my wesh and rhotator mods, so I can place stairs upside down or sideways just fine, but I can't find corners 12:24 erlehmann entuland no idea i was thinking of more blocks and stuff 12:24 specing corner stairs are in stairs: mod 12:25 entuland okay, let me try that 12:28 entuland moreblocks corner stairs are normal blocks that can be placed upside down directly just by aiming at the ceiling: https://i.imgur.com/6qvmQPl.png 12:29 entuland specing, the code you shared looks like trying to place the node in the first free position around where the player aimed, I'm not sure what's the intended purpose and what is failing there, if anything is failig 12:30 entuland failing* 12:34 specing entuland: not in first free, but one furnace every 2 nodes 12:35 specing (in the (1,0,0) direction) 12:35 entuland okay, I'm not that good with spatial placement reading code :P 12:35 entuland how is that code failing? 12:35 specing It only places 2/6 furnaces, and only when z varies 12:36 entuland okay, another query - normal mods should be able to do that, but you mentioned CSM, which if I am not mistaken are a different type of mods 12:36 entuland is that the case? 12:36 specing And they are placed side-by-side in the z axis. Not sure how that happens, since they should be spaced 2 nodes apart in the x direction... 12:36 specing entuland: yes, client side mods 12:37 entuland I have never messed with client side mods, no idea even how they differ from normal mods 12:38 entuland uhm... 12:38 entuland you're using timeouts or something to run the placement functions 12:38 entuland but you're using the same pos table 12:39 entuland maybe the actual table is the same and you're getting bitten by the table being altered "under the callback's feet" so to speak? 12:39 specing No, just spacing the placements 1 second apart to prevent potential server-side place spedd ratelimiter from affecting this test 12:39 entuland some kind of race condition 12:39 specing I thought about that, but I'm defining a new table every time by copying the numbers 12:40 specing Hmm 12:40 entuland attach is a different object, yes, but pos is not 12:40 entuland and you're passing both 12:40 specing it should be (vector.add makes a new one(?)) 12:40 entuland not sure how that works 12:40 specing Anyway, I'll try doing it more manually 12:40 entuland try using completely different names for each position 12:41 entuland pos1, attach1 and so forth 12:41 erlehmann anyone of you experienced in debugging the minetest protocol using wireshark etc.? 12:41 erlehmann i wanna figure out sources of lag 12:41 entuland just for paranoia 12:41 specing Yes, I'll do that 12:46 erlehmann anyone of you experienced in debugging the minetest protocol using wireshark etc.? 12:46 erlehmann i wanna figure out sources of lag 13:03 specing entuland: I guess that was partially the problem. Results: https://wtf.roflcopter.fr/pics/8OpOOrUS/CM5NQGm6.png (left is when pos and attach are swapped in code) code: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/7eb68bcc/ 13:03 specing No matter how I place, param2 is always 1 13:05 entuland uhm 13:05 entuland place_node takes (pos, node) according to the API 13:06 entuland so not sure I get that swapping 13:09 entuland_ there is no trace of param2 handling in the snippet you've shared, you're using it to change the orientation? 13:20 specing I guess this is not possible, so I either have to teach it to use a screwdriver or make it pathfind around and place (mega harder) 13:23 entuland_ how so? the screwdrivers rotate blocks exactly by altering param2 13:24 entuland_ you don't have to use any screwdriver, you just have to know which values to assign to param2 when you're placing the nodes 13:24 entuland_ it's somewhat tricky because param2 is used for more than just orientation, so you need to do some integer mask juggling, but it's not that hard 13:26 entuland_ for instance, here is one bit where I deal with param2 in my rhotator mod: https://github.com/entuland/rhotator/blob/master/init.lua#L451-L453 13:26 independent_ sorry if my server has lost half of the map, the cat walked on the server keyboars 13:26 independent_ now i get why real servers have a remote keyboard 13:27 entuland independent56, even just a screen lock could solve that issue out if you have cats around :P 13:27 independent56 lol yeah 13:27 entuland also, kudos to your cat, they must be knowledgeable if they could screw up your map like that 13:27 independent56 but without risk of losing your progress, life isnt worth living 13:27 entuland it's not easy to issue valid commands by randomly mashing the keyboard :P 13:28 independent56 easy "sudo rm -r / #wjkqfbiqbi93b 3 bd379" 13:28 independent56 but isnt that what movie hackers do? 13:29 entuland if that's what really happened, you issued that command yourself to have it in the history 13:29 entuland or you were typing it in the shell and left it incomplete and also left the server unattended with a known offender around :P 13:30 independent56 oh god yeah, i did that and did ^c to do a risky cleanup. cat must have done "up+up+up+up+enter" 13:50 independent_ what is the advantage of the "carpathian" mapgen? 13:50 erlehmann rivers 13:51 independent_ and other things? why would i use it over v7? 13:52 entuland erlehmann, no experience with wireshark, you could though try disabling mods one by one to find the offender (if that's the case) 13:54 erlehmann entuland no i could ot 13:54 erlehmann not 13:55 entuland you may try providing more details about the symptoms, maybe someone can chip in after understanding the situation better 14:03 erlehmann entuland symptoms: i want to see what goes over the wire 14:03 erlehmann entuland while i play the game 14:04 erlehmann entuland in real time 14:04 entuland I mean what happens that you are defining lags 14:04 entuland the frequency of the lags or what you're doing when they happen or how they manifest themselves, those are the symptoms I refer to 14:05 entuland the lag / freezes may be client side and not due to anything related to the server at all 14:06 entuland lagging and latency are also different things - you may not have the client freeze at all but some of your actions may not get a timely response from the server, and that would count as latency 14:07 erlehmann entuland lag spikes on server 14:07 erlehmann entuland every connected client has lag 14:08 specing erlehmann: then you should be debugging the server? 14:08 erlehmann entuland and sometimes some clients get sent *way* more metadata 14:08 erlehmann i mean 14:08 erlehmann map data 14:08 erlehmann o rwhatever 14:08 erlehmann who knows?! 14:08 erlehmann entuland i recently accidentally almost bookbanned myself 14:08 specing Reduce number of active blocks? 14:08 erlehmann no no i want to know what causes *traffic* 14:08 erlehmann and inspect that traffic 14:11 entuland the amount of map data a client receives depends on the view range 14:11 entuland maybe someone is just going nuts with their view range and causes huge requests "on purpose"? 14:15 entuland as for bookbanning, you may as well have some player doing sketchy things and overloading the server - how to go about hunting / troubleshooting these things, though, I have no idea 14:22 erlehmann entuland a player was standing still and minetest was using like 6 times normal traffic 14:22 erlehmann and it was laggy 14:23 entuland where is the server running? 14:23 entuland is it on a remote machine or on your computer? 16:50 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Message for empty list output in /haspriv & /mods (#11149) 13dc165fe https://git.io/JZSeA (152021-06-12T16:48:21Z) 16:50 MinetestBot 02[git] 04benrob0329 -> 03minetest/minetest: falling.lua - Fix Meshnodes Being Too Big (#11307) 13fbcf0fa https://git.io/JZSep (152021-06-12T16:48:14Z) 16:51 Pexin entuland specing: I may have missed some of the conversation above, but isn't it impossible for CSM to place nodes? 17:20 specing Pexin: in default minetest yep 17:37 independent56 leaked photo shows 56i's crappy server http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=server_1.jpg 17:43 MTDiscord almost on par with the EEEEEEE PC 17:47 independent56 i don get it 17:49 independent56 oh yeah now i do XD 17:54 * independent56 aiting for worldedit to copy a 165 K block skyscraper 17:55 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/hudzFSV 17:58 * independent56 still waiting 18:04 sfan5 if it says copied then it should already be done 18:04 wsor4035 erlehmann: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11273#issuecomment-842670087 18:05 independent56 oh cool 18:05 independent56 but it hasnt done. i am still waiting for the building to appear 18:08 entuland uh 18:08 entuland copying and pasting should be different things, isn't it? 18:09 entuland (never used worldedit myself) 18:10 sfan5 independent56: then something went wrong, when copy says it's done it is 18:12 independent56 entuland, it does them both for you. you specify directon to copy, like "x 10" or "y 5" for skyscraper floors. it does the pasting for you. 18:12 entuland okay 18:16 independent56 well fuck, i did "y 5" instead of "y 50" making a broken skyscraper 18:17 independent56 sorry, i lied. i did "z 30". i thought it was too close and that they had merged, but they hadnt. 18:17 entuland eheheh 18:17 entuland pebkac 18:18 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/gpMGTbT 18:18 MTDiscord looks ugly 18:18 entuland ahahah 18:18 entuland moral support :P 18:19 entuland at least you can jump from one to the other 18:19 independent56 XD yeah 18:19 independent56 it is council housing. 18:20 independent56 i mean, the slow lowlands landscape is ugly. ugly buildings go in ugly landscapes 18:28 independent56 3 flats built within 30 minutes 18:46 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/fAcIONi 18:46 independent56 council buildings 18:47 Krock is that minetest r34 content? 18:47 Krock jokes aside, good structure for a start 18:48 independent56 yeah... i just only built one floor, then used worldedit to copy that floor into hell 18:48 independent56 up, sideways, and soon, bakcwards 18:50 independent56 that is 5 skyscrapers in the slow lowlands, excluding the http://2.26.38.198/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=buildings:sl:pathetiscraper 19:02 erlehmann wsor4035 why did you link me that? 19:11 MTDiscord because you pinged me earlier 19:12 MTDiscord he also broke copying a while back @wsor copying? he also broke copying a while back 19:15 erlehmann ah 19:15 erlehmann now i understand 19:15 erlehmann sorry 19:16 independent56 how to start a minetest server using the command line: "up+up+up+down+down+up+enter" 19:17 specing I'm not sure if that's going to work. It's missing a rm -rf / invocation 19:17 independent56 XD 19:19 entuland cat not included 19:26 independent56 XDXD 21:36 erlehmann rubenwardy my friend Li0n actually used the wrong technical name for the MNT reform mod (“mnt_reform”) and told me the field can not be changed afterwards. the mod does not work if you download it. the technical name should actually be “mntreform”, without the underscore. 21:36 erlehmann rubenwardy could you please change the value? also, I think it might make sense to make obvious that “technical name” means “folder name” 21:37 erlehmann rubenwardy also I think a human approved it, but at least on my computer the mod does not work. 21:39 MTDiscord 1. Not only rubenwardy can make those changes. 2. Could delete the mod from cdb and reupload 21:39 MTDiscord please dont do #2 21:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood 21:39 MTDiscord 3. You can change it locally on your computer in the meantime 21:39 MTDiscord Also: lol 21:40 MTDiscord also, you do realize that mod.conf has a name field for the actual mod name? 21:40 erlehmann 3. You can change it locally on your computer in the meantime 21:40 rubenwardy An editor can rename 21:40 erlehmann that won't fix it for people who dl it 21:40 rubenwardy I'm busy right now 21:40 erlehmann hmmm 21:41 rubenwardy Not that changing the name changes the id, and so breaks update s 21:41 rubenwardy *note 21:41 MTDiscord easiest way is just add a name to mod.conf 21:41 MTDiscord and let people update 21:42 erlehmann but right now the mod does not work at all 21:42 MTDiscord yeah, and? 21:42 erlehmann that means breaking the mod for everyone who downloaded it is not a problem i think 21:42 Li0n mods on contentdb should and this one doesnt 21:42 erlehmann or is it? 21:43 Li0n how did a non-working mod get approved? you literally cannot start the game with it 21:43 MTDiscord wth, mod.config? its mod.conf 21:43 erlehmann well i was able to, but it broke the mineclone2 interface in half 21:44 erlehmann i was not able to start with it earlier though, no idea why it worked now 21:44 erlehmann maybe different versions of the engine 21:44 erlehmann (different computers) 21:46 MTDiscord >minetest-mod-mntreform-lawsuit-free ? 21:49 MTDiscord i could just un approve it for now 21:53 MTDiscord wth is this, yeah on 5.4 it broke a lot, and even on restart is still screwed 21:54 MTDiscord unapproved 21:57 MTDiscord it looks like normal node registrations ? 21:59 erlehmann uh, by unapproving the mod the comment that Li0n wrote about it not working 21:59 erlehmann was rejected 22:00 MTDiscord i fail to see the issue there 22:00 MTDiscord its not publicly listed anymore 22:02 erlehmann https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/items/nodes_items_crafting.html#item-names 22:02 erlehmann > Every item has an item name used to refer to it, which should be in the following format: 22:02 erlehmann > modname:itemname 22:03 erlehmann similar for nodes, i think 22:03 MTDiscord yeah, im well aware 22:03 erlehmann so in this case, the mod source code contains the prefix mntreform, but the folder is mnt_reform 22:03 MTDiscord im more curious how the mod hosed over the world 22:03 erlehmann is that enough to break it? 22:04 erlehmann oh, what is broken in your world? 22:04 MTDiscord in theory if modname xyz, and you register zzz:item, the engine will error at you 22:05 erlehmann oh lol it did break which mods are loaded 22:05 MTDiscord yeah, and broke it even after the fact 22:06 erlehmann uh 22:06 erlehmann here too 22:06 erlehmann wtf 22:06 MTDiscord Name stupid:stupid does not follow naming conventions: "modname" or ":" prefix required 22:06 MTDiscord if you make a mod that doesnt follow standards 22:08 MTDiscord not relevant at all, but this mods coding style is terrible 22:08 erlehmann Jonathon i know how it breaks this world 22:09 MTDiscord oh? 22:09 Li0n jonathon, what is wrong with the book? it follows rubenwardys coding book standard 22:09 Li0n I mean wrong with the mod 22:10 erlehmann Jonathon the mod depends on mesecons, but somehow it breaking leads to the world saving mesecons as a dependency, which then breaks redstone and everything depending on it. 22:10 erlehmann because mesecons inside mineclone2 is basically redstone 22:10 MTDiscord yeah, i got that much 22:11 MTDiscord im just not sure why the engine isnt complaining that the mod doesnt following the name standards 22:11 MTDiscord unless mods from cdb get special treatment 22:11 MTDiscord you know, let me clone this and see what happens 22:14 Li0n normally it does complain 22:14 erlehmann > unless mods from cdb get special treatment 22:14 erlehmann that would be extremely weird 22:17 MTDiscord ooooh, hold on 22:17 erlehmann maybe it has something to do with the mod.json? 22:17 erlehmann Jonathon did you find the smoking gun? 22:17 MTDiscord do you have the mesecons mod installed in your /mods folder? 22:18 erlehmann yes 22:18 MTDiscord his mod depends on mesecons, and when you go to enable it the engine auto enables mesecons from your /mods folder. i have seen this before 22:18 MTDiscord its a mixture of the engines fault? if you consider that behavior bad, and mineclone2 devs for being stupid and not renaming the mod to something else 22:19 MTDiscord disable mesecons from the gui in the mesecons modpack 22:19 MTDiscord and then the engine will give the wrong format error 22:20 MTDiscord and if you disable mesecons, your mc2 world will load normally 22:20 MTDiscord yet another reason mineclone2 is trash 22:21 MTDiscord even if you rename the mod correctly, technically the possiblity will still exist for people to blow up there worlds 22:21 MTDiscord for any mod for mc2 that needs to depend on mesecons 22:24 Li0n yes I should make it depend on Mineclonia instead 22:24 erlehmann which is not on contentdb 22:24 erlehmann yet 22:25 Li0n oh right 22:25 MTDiscord TLDR: the engine trys to hold your hand when enabling mods with dependencies and favors ones in /mods over games(which probably isnt a bad thing.). mineclone2 used mesecons and extensively modified it(i.e. didnt respect namespaces themselves) and left it the same name 22:26 erlehmann so i wonder: can you make a mod depend on mineclone2 or mineclonia? those are basically the same, except that mineclone2 has a bunch of game-breaking bugs. 22:26 MTDiscord do what farming redo depending mods do 22:26 Li0n in hindsight I did the dependencies a bit wrong in the config folders 22:27 erlehmann Jonathon uh, what do they do? 22:27 erlehmann any example for such a mod? 22:27 MTDiscord farming redo has a string that mtg farming doesn't and mods depened on farming, then they do a check for that string 22:27 Li0n I will have to make a new release 22:27 MTDiscord also, farming redo 100 percent supports mtg farmings functions, unlike what the mineclone2 did which is stupid 22:28 MTDiscord erlehmann: https://notabug.org/TenPlus1/farming/src/master/init.lua#L8-L19 22:29 erlehmann thx 22:29 MTDiscord also the engine allows you to enable mods in /mods with the same name as mods provided by a game as a way to override them 22:29 erlehmann Jonathon good to know that its someone elses fault 22:29 MTDiscord well yes and no 22:30 Li0n it is everyones fault 22:30 Li0n we all failed each other 22:30 erlehmann yeah, no one is right, everyone is wrong 22:31 MTDiscord ultimately its mineclone2 fault mainly for being dumb, the approver for missing a _ in the names, and those two combined creating a big mess 22:31 Li0n if I had not made certain mistakes, it would have been fine. if contentdb had not made certain mistakes, it would have been fine. if mineclone2 had not made certain mistakes, it would have been fine 22:31 erlehmann the catastrophe only happens if you manage to hold up a dozen swiss cheese slices and the holes randomly line up to let the bug through 22:31 MTDiscord LOL, yes this 22:31 Li0n lmao yes 22:32 erlehmann it's great, i am literally the only one talking right now who is totally free of blame! 22:32 erlehmann :D 22:32 MTDiscord i didnt approve that package ? 22:32 Li0n I can't help but think about those 89 downloads my mod has. there may be up to 89 people now with a broken minetest 22:32 erlehmann well, a broken world 22:33 erlehmann minetest should really not automatically enable a mod from outside a game that exists in a game 22:33 erlehmann if the game is that base game for the world 22:33 MTDiscord mineclonia still has the same issues 22:33 erlehmann that seems wrong 22:33 MTDiscord it uses names it technically doesnt on 22:33 MTDiscord *own 22:33 erlehmann Jonathon and guess what, we are locked in into that 22:33 Li0n well I may have made a mistake in the dependencies saying it depends on mesecons instead of mineclone2 22:33 MTDiscord "minetest should really not automatically enable a mod from outside a game that exists in a game" yes, it should, its a way to override whole mods, just like : overrides nodes 22:34 erlehmann i have somethign funny: i *think* that the mod works with both mesecons 22:34 erlehmann the one from mcl2/mineclonia and the standalone one 22:34 MTDiscord erlehmann: not really, i think its fixable 22:34 erlehmann ah 22:34 erlehmann but you can not craft the laptop actually 22:35 erlehmann inside the game, without mineclone dyes 22:35 MTDiscord just whoever fixes it will hate there life if they want to backwords supports stuff 22:35 erlehmann so it does depend on more than redstone/mesecons 22:35 MTDiscord oh wait, you could just change the name, and add : in front of all registrations, easily fixng this, no aliases needed 22:35 erlehmann uh? 22:35 erlehmann i don't get it 22:36 Li0n what a mess I've created 22:36 MTDiscord change all your mesecon mods names to mcl_modname, then in places that register stuff, just add a : in front 22:36 Li0n here I was thinking minetest modding was entry level coding 22:36 erlehmann Li0n the correct way is "uncovered". the emperor had no clothes the whole time! 22:36 MTDiscord Li0n: it is, till your depending on others mistakes 22:37 MTDiscord also: they will only have a broken world if they had mesecons in there /mods 22:37 Li0n ah 22:37 Li0n if they did not have mesecons in their mods then the mod probably still would not have run 22:37 MTDiscord while my suggested fix is not ideal, its the easiest for backwords compat, and keeping ones sanity 22:38 MTDiscord this also means that no one can depend on mesecons safely now at all 22:38 MTDiscord im really suprised no one has blowen this up before 22:39 MTDiscord considering its a popular mod and subgame 22:43 MTDiscord so anyways, im not really sure what to do, i would say mineclone2/mineclonia need to fix themselves first tbh