Time Nick Message 00:09 Viper Hi, converted player backed to sqlite, now on startup i get ==> /!\ You are using old auth file backend. This backend is deprecated and will be removed in a future release /!\ 00:12 MisterE so i run a newly build minetest on openbsd 00:12 MisterE I get this error 00:12 MisterE 2021-04-07 17:10:54: ERROR[Main]: Failed to get paths by executable location, trying cwd 00:12 MisterE 2021-04-07 17:10:54: ERROR[Main]: Game specified in default_game [minetest] is invalid. 00:12 MisterE 2021-04-07 17:10:55: ERROR[Main]: ServerError: Supplied invalid gamespec 00:12 MisterE and the server doesnt run 00:16 Viper MisterE: what is folder name in minetest/games/????? <== 00:16 MisterE actually, I just figured it out 00:17 MisterE The other errors are not a big deal; I had to specify a gameid 00:17 MisterE Thank you :) 00:17 Viper yw MisterE 09:33 MTDiscord Are the floatlands enabled in v7 mapgen yet? 10:39 Andrew__ what does staff of light in ethereal do 10:57 RetroBoy64 Hello everyone, how do I make it so more mobs spawn on the world? 10:58 RetroBoy64 I have mods installed by the way 11:12 Andrew__ RetroBoy64: They just spawn. Note that the "mobs" mod only provides a API for mobs, you need something like "mobs_monster" to make the actual mob entities. 11:22 RetroBoy64 I have mobs animals as well 11:23 RetroBoy64 But I rarely ever see them on the world, it's not like mod doesn't work either, becaue on the creative mod I can spawn mods all day 11:23 Andrew__ hmm weird 11:23 Andrew__ whats your worldgen 11:26 RetroBoy64 let me take a look 11:27 RetroBoy64 how do I view the world gen (seed)? There is no visible option on the menu 11:31 RetroBoy64 They are a bit more common on water but I almost never see them on land 11:39 RetroBoy64 Should I come back later andrew? 12:17 Andrew__ idk :\ 12:37 Andrew__ I have a problem with 185.57.229.162 who is trying to hack my server 13:30 MTDiscord Is it one of those auto bots that try to brute force access via ssh? 13:31 Andrew__ No, they accessed via MT not ssh 13:33 MTDiscord How do you know this? It's much more likely that one of your mods is missing some kind of check if you mean the world was modified or admin items/commands were used 17:46 ar10ch in a formspec, can field values be locked so that only privileged users can change them? like by pressing a button to lock / unlock and checking player privs at that stage? 17:50 MTDiscord I'm pretty sure you get to decide what formspec elements to send to a player and can determine which fields to make actually editable at that time. 17:51 MTDiscord Keep in mind that players can modify formspec responses arbitrarily, including completely forging entire responses, so you can't trust them and need to fully validate them when received server-side. 17:54 ar10ch Warr1024: ok thanks, it occurs to me to have a button to a "2nd page" and check the privs at that point 17:54 Sokomine ar10ch: you can send a specific formspec to each user. in that you can offer whatever options you want. but: never trust what the user sends to the server. always check user input 17:54 Sokomine oh. warr1024 replied already 17:55 ar10ch Sokomine: thanks :) 17:55 Sokomine well. question of my own: has a mod for "chatting" with npc (rpg-like dialogs) be written by now? i planned to do so - but had very little time (still trying to catch up with the forum) 17:56 MTDiscord Using the "formspec" metadata on a node does not give you the opportunity to do the checks, but you can do things like handling the right-click server-side in that case. I think there MAY be a network delay cost to that, but I would think that should be rarely an issue in practice. 17:58 Sokomine yes, if you set the metadata and let the client do all the showing of the formspec then it's usually faster - but you have no choice as to what to show to the specific user. what is better depends on the situation. if it has to be specific, send a specific formspec to the user. otherwise don't. i'm still highly unpleased about the change where locked chests got made "secret" and thus got horribly slow 17:58 Sokomine and unusable for me on many servers 17:58 DS-minetest Sokomine: I've seen npc chatting on the Your Land server 17:58 Sokomine oh. that sounds nice. havn't visited that one 18:00 ar10ch A while ago I thought about using robots as "tutors", picking out keywords in input strings, so something along the lines of npc-chatting sounds great. 18:01 ar10ch I dont know how to send "personalised" formspecs yet, but if it works - then probably hiding the fields part of the formspec behind a priv-checking button should suit the use-case 18:02 Sokomine i'm thinking more along the line of old point and click adventures where you can select one option. not them spamming chat or trying to react to freely typed sentences 18:02 ar10ch ah ok 18:02 ar10ch Ah i know what u mean now 18:03 MTDiscord I had briefly toyed with the idea of formspec dialog, but I really hated the way it blocked the 3D scene behind it, I had rather little control over how formspecs were laid out on screen dependent on dimensions, and controlling the scene was problematic in general. 18:04 MTDiscord Some time I might want to play around with a formspec-less approach though, e.g. using tangible items or ents in 3D space for speaking, and maybe just floating ents or even waypoint HUDs for listening... 18:05 Sokomine warr1024: the blocking out of the 3d scene will remain. there's a bit more control over how formspecs are laid out now. it became possible to write such chats some time ago 18:12 erlehmann hey i just want your attention. in every version of mesecons you can put a button at the world border to crash the server. https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/1494 18:12 erlehmann the issue contains a fix 18:12 Hawk777 Maybe that should be reported to Mesecons? 18:13 erlehmann i reported it to mineclone2 18:13 Hawk777 Also, is it only buttons, or anything else? 18:13 erlehmann but it was marked as UNCONFIRMED 18:13 Hawk777 And two hours later someone confirmed it. 18:13 erlehmann no, one developer of minclone2 (jordan4ibanez) now uses it to crash servers instead of fixing it 18:13 erlehmann he uploaded a video to youtube even of repeatedly crashing a server people are on 18:14 erlehmann he just put a button on the world border and kept pressing it 18:14 erlehmann the issue is still unconfirmed 18:14 DS-minetest link or it didn't happen 18:14 Hawk777 Sure the unconfirmed *label* is there, but the confirmation message from cora is also *only three hours old*. 18:15 sfan5 I guess fast travel is viable in MCL2 since getting to the world border via normal means is quite a feat in MTG? 18:15 erlehmann sfan5, 7 minutes via nether 18:15 erlehmann https://youtub.be/IR44kDUxSQQ (from their discord) 18:16 sfan5 !title 18:16 MinetestBot urllib.error.URLError: (file "/usr/lib/python3.6/urllib/request.py", line 1327, in do_open) 18:16 sfan5 uh oh 18:16 sfan5 weird 18:16 erlehmann sorry 18:16 erlehmann it is this https://youtu.be/IR44kDUxSQQ 18:16 erlehmann typo 18:16 erlehmann so yeah 18:16 erlehmann this developer in particular has commit rights to master branch 18:16 erlehmann and *could* review the fix 18:16 DS-minetest !title 18:16 MinetestBot No title found. 18:17 DS-minetest !title https://youtu.be/IR44kDUxSQQ 18:17 MinetestBot No title found. 18:17 sfan5 yeah it's broken 18:17 erlehmann so i just want to warn all of you 18:17 erlehmann if you have mesecons or mineclone2 18:17 erlehmann pull the fix 18:17 Hawk777 Is there a reason you don’t want to report the issue to Mesecons? 18:17 MTDiscord https://xkcd.com/242/ 18:17 erlehmann and DO NOT rely on mcl2 devs to fix it 18:17 erlehmann Hawk777 i have reported the issue to a project and devs started abusing it instead of fixing it 18:18 Hawk777 Well if you don’t report the issue to Mesecons, how can you expect the Mesecons devs to fix it? 18:18 MTDiscord If the devs wanted to be able to exploit their own code instead of fixing it, you'd think they could have just added an actual back-door anyway. 18:19 ar10ch yeah but do the mineclone "redstone" buttons do the same thing? 18:19 erlehmann look whatever you report it 18:19 erlehmann its a fork with different skins 18:19 erlehmann so don't worry 18:20 Hawk777 I’m busy right now. I’m not going to take the time to try and repro the bug to check whether it happens with Mesecons or only Mineclone, and then make a ticket about it. It sounded like you cared a lot about the issue, so I thought you would care enough to report it to Mesecons (especially if Mineclone just forks Mesecons, it would be easier on both parties if the fix came from upstream). 18:22 DS-minetest I find it quite sad that every attempt to replicate redstone in minetest that I've seen so far just uses mesecons and changes the textures. afaik mesecons and redstone are very different, redstone doesn't even have the same concept of conductors 18:22 MTDiscord Chances are good there are related bugs as well, like different kinds of input controls or devices that cause crashes near the map border, too. It's awfully rare to run into a "forgot that ignores can be within reach of players" kinds of bugs that's not part of a whole class of bugs... 18:22 Hawk777 Maybe if I remember on the weekend I might try it out. Or I might forget about it by then. 18:23 Hawk777 It doesn’t really affect me personally; I play on a closed-group server and we’re nowhere near the map border anyway. 18:23 MTDiscord Said jordan4ibanez actually had a rather impressively redstone-esque redstone remake of his own in Crafter... 18:24 DS-minetest ah, right, I've forgot that one. though I've never seen it in-game, and I found it weird how it modified the abm timer settings, urgh. 18:24 MTDiscord NodeCore's nc_optics does a decent job capturing the original spirit of MC's redstone but the actual mechanics of it are quite different. 18:25 MTDiscord You can't really do something quite like redstone using ABMs anyway. The original stuff ran on a 20Hz fixed step. NC optics run at 12Hz. Most of the rest that I've seen do stuff either instantaneously or after like a full second delay. 18:26 DS-minetest I guess I should try out nc in creative then some time. on that one nc server, I only came so far to produce glass, no more 18:26 MTDiscord producing glass is very close to what you need to do optics 18:26 MTDiscord i.e. you just need to produce the right kind of glass (depends on how you cool it) and then chip/chop that glass into optic components. 18:27 DS-minetest yeah, the chip/chop thing is the problematic part here 18:27 erlehmann look 18:27 erlehmann there is only one single bug 18:27 MTDiscord you'd need fairly high-tier tools for it at least. 18:27 erlehmann the function that depowers the world border 18:27 erlehmann does not check for getting nil 18:27 erlehmann from the ignore blocks at the border 18:27 erlehmann bc whoever wrote it thought they could forceload all the blocks 18:27 DS-minetest "there is only one single bug" lmao xD 18:27 erlehmann to depower them 18:27 erlehmann so it happens every time you depower the world border 18:28 erlehmann regardless how you do it 18:28 MTDiscord I mean, it's possible for one true underlying bug to have a ton of presentations/symptoms; it just depends on how you count bugs. 18:28 erlehmann if you want to be evil, put a mob that can jump in an enclosure and put a pressure plate under it 18:28 MTDiscord Like, "the creator of this web service clearly doesn't know a damn thing about SQL injection" is "just one" bug too :-) 18:28 erlehmann then try to keep the part of the map where it is in active via some mens 18:28 erlehmann means 18:30 DS-minetest yeah, but I think it's quite hard to adequately summarize all bugs in all minetest related stuff, or at least only those from mesecons, to one bug 18:33 ar10ch on the matter of world borders: is it possible to reduce the worlds radius? would this achieve any improvement in performance (less to load / generate) ? 18:34 DS-minetest FYI, I haven't managed to cause a crash at world boarder by turning anything off there 18:34 DS-minetest maybe something weird in the mineclone mesecons fork calls mesecon.turnoff somewhere 18:36 erlehmann ah cool 18:36 erlehmann DS-minetest, good to know 18:36 erlehmann DS-minetest, i am relieved 18:37 DS-minetest there are easier ways to crash a server using mesecons anyway 18:37 MTDiscord You can reduce the size of a world by setting mapgen_limit, before the areas in question get generated. 18:37 erlehmann ok! 18:37 erlehmann thank you 18:37 MTDiscord This does not prevent players from reaching the world border, it just makes that border be closer to the center. 18:38 MTDiscord it does help reduce the disk space that a world can occupy, which is really helpful if you want to offer downloads or keep rotating backups 18:38 DS-minetest erlehmann: it is possible that I didn't try hard enough or just did something wrong (I didn't find clear reproduction instructions). it would be better if you tested it yourself, too 18:38 MTDiscord And you can also raise the mapgen_limit later if you decide you do want to expand, and it will generate the new terrain just fine as far as I've seen. 18:39 ar10ch Warr1024: that's great, thanks! I was just about to ask the last bit too lol 18:39 erlehmann DS-minetest, it would be easier to check if mesecons actually had the fix i think 18:40 MTDiscord If you set it in minetest.conf, then any new world you create will inherit the mapgen_limit setting, but it's "baked" into worlds in I think map_meta.txt, so that's where you'd have to change it if you want to modify existing worlds. 18:40 DS-minetest erlehmann: what fix are you referring to? 18:40 erlehmann DS-minetest, the issue contains a fix for the mcl2 code to make it not crash by checking for nil when forceloading a node to depower it 18:40 erlehmann maybe mesecons already does this 18:41 MTDiscord I think you can also set mapgen_limit insanely low on an existing world, like lower it to 128 nodes or something, and it will de facto mean "anywhere already explored is fine, but no new mapgen anywhere else". The ungenerated areas will have "ignores" in them and you can't walk into those places. 18:41 DS-minetest erlehmann: but how would this help in reproduction attempts? 18:41 erlehmann you can actually very easily get into these places, the hard part is getting out again 18:41 erlehmann DS-minetest, it shows exactly what to trigger, a depowering of the world border 18:42 erlehmann i will test it! 18:43 DS-minetest erlehmann: not really exact. it just shows a diff in .turnoff. a stack trace would be more helpful 18:55 erlehmann DS-minetest, i have confirmed the bug is not in mesecons. but i found a hilarious dupe in the process. 19:00 erlehmann DS-minetest, MTDiscord sorry for overreacting that much 19:00 erlehmann you can still crash all mcl2 servers with this 19:00 Hawk777 IMO still worth reporting the dupe bug to Mesecons. It’s less serious but should still be fixed. 19:01 Hawk777 And I’m sorry if I came off as dismissive; I just found it frustrating that it looked like there was an important bug in Mesecons but you didn’t seem to want to report it to Mesecons. 19:02 Hawk777 Good to hear it’s not actually there though. 19:08 MTDiscord Might be interesting to dig through the mesecons history, or check the blame on that bit of code, and see if they actually found and fixed the same bug pre-fork. 19:10 DS-minetest as said before, a stack trace would be helpful. normally you don't call .turnoff for a non-mesecons node, afaik 19:12 DS-minetest edit: forget it, I'm stupid 19:12 erlehmann oh wow 19:13 erlehmann its even worse 19:13 erlehmann the asshole developer made redstone machines at the world border blow up instead of merging the fix 19:15 DS-minetest hm, just checked the history, the ignore check was always there in mesecons, so mcl2's faul 19:20 ar10ch tbh i only tested the mcl game i downloaded way back very briefly but things seem to work - the server ive been on has been messed with horribly. the boat sinks, the protected doors/chests cannot be removed and mcl_weather causes so much lag that the game becomes unplayable. I dont know how many versions of mcl2 are being run on servers, but if theyre all like that then more bugs are little surprise 19:32 MTDiscord so i have some questions: 1. who made player_api? 2. is it okay to use it in my game as long as i credit the creator and not violate the rules of the license? 19:34 Krock @Danil_2461 it originates from "default" 19:34 Krock many people worked on it 19:35 Krock but since it's licensed as MIT you only have to attribute the source, and if it refers to a git history, it also documents the authors 19:35 Krock I'd say just copypaste it. 19:38 MTDiscord Player_api from mtg is lgplv2 19:38 Krock weird 19:39 MTDiscord Aka only use it if you want gpl virus in your work 19:39 specing LGPLv2 and GPL virus? What are you smoking? 19:40 Krock I wonder why I thought that it's MIT 19:40 Krock well then. you gotta need a LGPL2.1+ compatible license 19:41 Krock mtg_craftguide is sublicensed as MIT 19:41 Krock s/sub// 19:41 Krock binoculars too 19:42 Krock actually most of it is MIT 19:43 MTDiscord Mit is nice since others can use a "higher" license if they want without being forced to 19:46 MTDiscord I merged your fix erlhemann, I'm still new to being a core member of the project, cut me a break 19:46 DS-minetest why does .item_place_node not use core.set_last_run_mod when calling callbacks? 19:46 DS-minetest züh züh züh 19:52 MTDiscord But I just reverted it, so that someone else can merge it properly, fixed 20:10 MTDiscord Making machines explode instead of work as expected is a perfectly valid way to address the problem too 20:11 MTDiscord I guess the "as expected" part sort of depends on whether you're the type of developer wherein people should be expecting explosions 20:12 DS-minetest the problem with explosions is that they shouldn't violate protection of other players 20:13 MTDiscord Sure, though again, that depends on what you're going for design-wise. 20:14 MTDiscord I had this debate in another forum already, but it seems that people seem to think "protection should render my creation completely inert except for changes of my own volition", which is fine for like a creative-type game. 20:15 MTDiscord For more survival-focused gameplay though, either protection may still subject players to the game's mechanics and consequences thereof, or protection support might not even be a priority. 20:15 MTDiscord If it's MCL2 it's a bit of a hard problem since my understanding of that game is that it's really targeting a mix of play styles. 20:29 erlehmann Making machines explode instead of work as expected is a perfectly valid way to address the problem too 20:29 erlehmann that is wrong 20:30 erlehmann Warr1024 the explosion might actually trigger another depowering, reccursively exploding until the lua stack overflows 20:31 erlehmann i am not sure how much redstone you would need for it 20:31 erlehmann but it does not really matter 20:31 erlehmann bc if i understand it right mesecons keeps all mapblocks active where there is something 20:32 erlehmann Warr1024 there can be issues where explosion is the correct thing 20:32 erlehmann but in this case i think it was just “haha i am a dev and a griefer” 20:38 ar10ch Yay - got me "personalised" priv-based formspecs 20:40 ar10ch only thing I have not done is save the inputs, but I'm guessing they get saved as meta strings? 21:02 Hawk777 erlehmann, it used to keep a lot of mapblocks active, but for about 4½ years, Mesecons proper has used voxelmanipulators instead so that long wires can run through inactive mapblocks (I actually wrote that code)—the mapblocks will be loaded, but not activated. I don’t know whether Mineclone has that change or not. 21:04 erlehmann Hawk777, ah ok! 21:04 erlehmann i see 21:05 erlehmann Hawk777, could you maybe look at the proposed fix here? https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/1494 21:05 Hawk777 It was this PR . 21:06 erlehmann Hawk777, query 21:06 Hawk777 I’m not sure why you call “get_node_force” twice rather than just checking “if n ~= nil”. 21:10 specing Hawk777: Has any thought been put into storing wiring/machine networks separately from block data? 21:13 Hawk777 Certainly. See the extensive discussions on and . The resolution was that it would probably improve performance but also be a huge amount of work to get right (including in the face of server crashes half way through updating data structures), and nobody has done it. 21:14 specing thanks 21:17 Hawk777 erlehmann: one other thing, get_node_force in older versions (where it used active blocks instead of voxelmanipulators) could sometimes return nil even for legitimate parts of the world, specifically if there aren’t enough force-activation slots available (I forget what they’re actually called, equivalent to what Minecraft calls chunkloading tickets I think). There was some logic somewhere about deferring wire updates to a lat 21:17 Hawk777 ck in that situation (which is no longer present in current Mesecons because, with voxelmanipulators, it’s unnecessary), but it’s worth thinking through if your proposed change would mean that, in that situation, you could hit that and have part of a wire be on and part be off. Although that code as written looks like it would previously have just crashed in that situation, so probably no worse? 21:17 Hawk777 I’m not actually certain *why* current Mesecons doesn’t crash under the circumstances you described. 21:18 erlehmann I’m not sure why you call “get_node_force” twice rather than just checking “if n ~= nil”. 21:18 erlehmann see that is why i wanted a code review 22:41 ar10ch what is formname? If i label my formspec as "form1", what does formname do? Is it a sub of the formspec? 22:42 MTDiscord its for when you use minetest.register_on_player_receive_fields 22:42 ar10ch ah 22:42 MTDiscord see receiving formspec submissions https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/players/formspecs.html 22:44 ar10ch i had a working formspec with buttons and input fields. Teleportation was a simple test. Then I added a priv-check and since then 2 different formspecs show for privileged / unprivileged users but the buttons no longer work. Gutted! Had hoped formname would be the key 22:55 ar10ch Hmm.. what about minetest.show_formspec? I want to show my formspec in the event that the condition is met, so what is formname then? 22:56 MTDiscord Kind of makes me wonder why form name even needs to be a thing in the API; you could just as easily embed a hidden field in the form anyway to identify it, and the work you have to do to figure out if it's the form you want is more or less the same either way. 22:57 MTDiscord basically for formname, just make up a reasonable name for it, though prefixing it with your mod's technical name might be a good way to make sure it doesn't collide with anybody else's name. 22:59 ar10ch I set it to various things - it usually works, but yeah I should follow a naming convention before I finish this exercise. I think I'll accept my progress so far until tomo and figure out why adding the priv-check feature until then 23:00 ar10ch *why adding the priv feature broke it lol 23:00 MTDiscord minetest.get_current_modname() .. ":whatever" is usually one of the safer ways to go for naming stuff. 23:04 ar10ch The idea that prompted me toward this exercise was that I was teleporting players with their chests (intact) but the point of that was to be something to aim for as a reward on a tough survival server, So I thought a formspec and privs had to be added 23:05 MTDiscord teleporting players without chests would be awkward 23:06 MTDiscord lotta important organs in there 23:06 ar10ch haha 23:06 ar10ch that took me a min 23:06 MTDiscord though I guess if you're going for "tough survival" then trying to do it without heart/lungs is about as tough as it gets 23:08 DS-minetest hmmm, you are giving me ideas 23:08 ar10ch yeah knife-project the player model in blender 23:09 ar10ch walk around like a polo mint 23:09 ar10ch a square polo mint 23:10 * DS-minetest likes to implement weird mod ideas (https://github.com/Desour/crying_obsydian) 23:12 MTDiscord Haha, I like that 23:12 MTDiscord Crying obsidian is a callback to an MC feature that was never properly implemented, got removed, and then got readded later, right? 23:12 ar10ch Just reading thru - looks interesting 23:12 MTDiscord It looks like that mod adds sound to it... :-) 23:13 DS-minetest umm, it's crying obsidian 23:13 ar10ch haha 23:13 DS-minetest idk, what it has to do with mc 23:13 DS-minetest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 23:14 Hawk777 MC does have something with the same name, not at all the same thing though. https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Crying_Obsidian 23:14 MTDiscord https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Crying_Obsidian#Trivia 23:15 MTDiscord I remember when it was added the first time, and I think I remember it being removed 23:15 MTDiscord it had never actually been used at the time though. I didn't know what the plans they had for it were. 23:15 MTDiscord I suppose they caved to fan pressure to add it in later though 23:16 MTDiscord They added it back in last year ... only about 7 years too late for me to try it out in MC. 23:21 ar10ch hold on my brain cells are trying to regroup - hiding somewhere in a corner... 23:23 ar10ch will anyone be offended if i paste my working code, with a hope to seeing how to add the priv check? I can paste the broken-button version after too 23:25 DS-minetest use a pastebin service 23:26 ar10ch yup 23:26 ar10ch https://pastebin.pl/view/5b4a60e2 23:29 DS-minetest (node meta is typically set on_construct) 23:30 ar10ch the code shown works fine - its just as i add the priv check that the buttons stop working. 23:30 ar10ch hold on 23:30 ar10ch ill paste 23:30 DS-minetest if you want to have different formspecs depending on the player, you have to send the formspec string every time when the node's form is accessed. => use .show_formspec in on_rightclick and not formspec in meta 23:33 ar10ch this works (to show different formspecs for privileged / unprivileged players) but the buttons are broken 23:33 ar10ch https://pastebin.pl/view/ee36ef0d 23:35 ar10ch ah... maybe i get what ur saying - so no meta string for formspec? 23:37 ar10ch oh wait - is it broken because they all have the same names? oh duh 23:39 Hawk777 That pastebin site is dead for me. 23:40 ar10ch the last one? 23:40 Hawk777 Yeah. 23:40 Hawk777 Actually both now I think. For me all of pastebin.pl seems to be dead. Was working a few minutes ago. 23:41 ar10ch yeah i 404'd. Think I broke pastebin. Sorry :( 23:45 Hawk777 Looks like it’s back now. 23:53 ar10ch https://pastebin.pl/view/578099cd 23:54 ar10ch https://pastebin.pl/view/f644776d