Time Nick Message 01:27 DivideByZero I found a typing error on https://wiki.minetest.net/MinetestEDU 01:27 DivideByZero "Automatically assing players to an individual construction area " 01:28 DivideByZero I don't think it's supposed to say 'assing players' on an educational focused page. 01:28 DivideByZero Someone might want to fix that up. 02:38 Calinou DivideByZero: fixed :) 05:39 DivideByZero Calinou: *thumbs up* 06:20 Extexo How do I use io.open to open a text file as a lua string? 06:22 Extexo Oh nvm I'm stupid lol 06:22 Extexo That's what io.open does 06:22 Extexo Nevermind 06:22 Extexo Nobody say this 06:23 Extexo saw* 06:23 Extexo Lol 09:15 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Devtest: Fix missing log level in minetest.log (#11068) 1388f514a https://git.io/JqSDD (152021-03-15T09:13:15Z) 12:02 MinetestBot 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/serverlist: Only apply uptime penalty on repeated restarts 135d5f31d https://git.io/JqH2v (152021-03-15T11:35:02Z) 12:02 MinetestBot 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/serverlist: Avoid unnecesary disk writes 13a9ecf55 https://git.io/JqH2f (152021-03-15T10:38:49Z) 12:02 MinetestBot 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/serverlist: Adjust server ranking 139f144f3 https://git.io/JqH2k (152021-03-15T10:27:38Z) 15:45 LoneWolfHT Sweet 15:50 MTDiscord Why are we explicitly penalizing servers that support both v4 and v5? Why not just penalize servers supporting v4 regardless of whether they're dual or v4-only? That would seem to be more in line with the stated goal in the commit log. 15:52 LoneWolfHT Servers that support v4 only go to the bottom of the client serverlist and are greyed out 15:52 LoneWolfHT On the 5.x versions 15:52 sfan5 those two are effectively the same since clients only see servers that support v5 (or v4) anyway 15:52 rubenwardy exactly ^ 15:55 MTDiscord I guess I just figured it'd be simpler not to check proto max, if it's all the same otherwise. 15:56 MTDiscord Also, we don't necessarily want to look like we're singling out multicraft or anything... :-| 15:56 MTDiscord i mean, thats effectively what its doing 15:57 MTDiscord ironic that a 4x only server is #5 on the list rn lol 15:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5 -- Fixed key names so the key set menu now works. by adamnew123456 15:57 MTDiscord That's fine, but I think the principle of the change stands on its own regardless of what effect it may or may not have on a specific project. 15:57 rubenwardy Worth noting that Multicraft also has its own server list that shows only v4+5 servers. So they use their own clients to boost their servers 16:38 MTDiscord Extexo: no, that's not what io.open does 16:38 MTDiscord io.open applies a file handle, much like a stream, on which you can call seek, write or read depending on mode 16:39 MTDiscord returns* 16:42 hlqkj don't know if it's appropriate to ask here here, sorry in case. i have a question: seems that copying text from read-only textareas doesn't work anymore on the 5.4 client, is that wanted or a regression? 16:43 rubenwardy Linux? 16:44 hlqkj win-64 17:16 hlqkj about the serverlist and 0.4 vs 5 thing, i'd like to drop a small point to ponder on. please forgive if i got something wrong in how the ranking works, can still be the case. but since the number of players is taken into account when scoring a server popularity, after the MT community decision to drop the old protocol it's undeniable that servers allowing both 0.4 and 5.x clients in have imho an unfair advantage: just consider the amount unofficial 17:16 hlqkj clients that are still stuck on 0.4 and that we don't have an official iOS client (or do we?) 17:17 hlqkj i know that guests are considered like 1/8 iirc? but 1/8*80 avg players is still having a weight compared to 1*10 avg players. also, the average client count score doesn't do distinction between guests and non-guests names, is it? 17:18 hlqkj like it is now, imho, it is penalizing admins who use the official mt and updated their servers to 5, and as time passes the spread gets worse: who has a high rank get more advertised hence having a chance to rank up, while those who lie at the bottom will likely stay there for time... 17:36 numzero what’s wrong with “unofficial” clients and servers? MT core devs stated pretty well they have nothing against these 17:36 numzero by using LGPL instead of AGPL 17:38 hlqkj i didn't said there is something wrong with them! but if players count is taken into account, then also the availability of clients must be taken into account imho 17:38 VanessaE certain *cough* forks flood the server list with server entries that I guess work only with their branded client rather than just the generic Minetest client 17:38 hlqkj if an official mt is only allow 5.x clients, and the whole iOS community doesn't have a client to connect to it, the rank would not be so... impartial 17:38 hlqkj just my opinion though 17:39 hlqkj letting aside that, knowing how the ranking algo works, i could easily recompile my mt to "tell the serverlist what it is expecting to rank me up" 17:41 hlqkj small, insignificant example. we updated a 0.4 to 5, lost at least half a dozen of players that were using an unofficial app on iPads. half a dozen are our average player count 17:41 hlqkj is that the server lost gameplay quality because we decided it was finally time to update? 17:42 numzero what does ranking has to do with gameplay quality? 17:42 numzero popularity is measureable. gameplay quality isn’t 17:42 numzero and is different for different people 17:42 VanessaE gameplay quality is dictated not just by the game content, but by its community 17:43 VanessaE if you lose valuable, good players, your game quality will decline even if the content remains unchanged. 17:43 VanessaE or to put it another way: 17:43 VanessaE if you lose good players, your ratio of good to crap players drops. you have fewer good players to offset the crap players that are also there. 17:44 VanessaE thus, the quality of everyones' interactions declines. 17:44 VanessaE 'course, that's assuming all those lost in a protocol transition are good players. 17:44 hlqkj that's good to me, wasn't my point actually... 17:44 VanessaE (which v0.4 vs v5.x is) 17:45 VanessaE that said, if they're on iOS, they're probably all hoity-toity, I'm-better-than-you players anyway :) 17:46 VanessaE you know, typical Apple clientele :) 17:46 numzero yet they were *all* on iOS 17:46 numzero so were *good* players for each other, weren’t they? 17:46 hlqkj not all of them, some are great ones but have parents that are like you say :) 17:47 VanessaE but there's another aspect to the whole loss thing: if player count drops too much, a server may become not worth maintaining. 17:47 VanessaE numzero: I am joking you know :) 17:47 sofar I'm not a fan of solving symptoms while leaving the underlying problem alone -> ios need a v5 client 17:48 numzero what I’m trying to say is that the meaning of “good” and “crap” players is not strictly defined 17:48 hlqkj players comes and goes, that is normal. the point i was trying to say (forgive if im not so clear, english isn't my main language) is that sorting a list is by definition based on something that must be measurable 17:49 hlqkj the way you get new players, is by having them noticing a server, which should be easier for servers that are up in the list 17:49 hlqkj on this, i think everyone could agree, isn't it? 17:49 sofar the serverlist isn't "one" list per se - it's a list with many different lists embedded inherently 17:49 VanessaE hlqkj: well the original idea behind the ranking algo was to promote servers with good quality interaction based on things that themselves tend to promote that, like requiring users to create real accounts with passwords, versus a million "guest" accounts 17:49 hlqkj that i suppose is why "parameters" like, ping, up-time, average players, non-guest clients count have been taken into account 17:50 hlqkj that is what i meant with "game quality" 17:50 VanessaE or if a server reboots periodically, it's reasonable to assume they're doing so to make regular backupsl. things like that. 17:50 hlqkj exactly 17:50 sofar the other side of the issue is that the serverlist is being used differently by some clients 17:52 VanessaE sofar: I presume you mean something other than Mineclone flooding the list? 17:53 hlqkj this easily falls into a "political"-like discussion, lol, which i didn't wanted to 17:53 sofar multicraft clients don't see non-multicraft servers 17:54 hlqkj if that's the case, why minetest sees multicraft servers? 17:54 sofar you can play on them with v5 17:55 hlqkj that is, again, not the point i wanted to mark 17:55 VanessaE er yeah, I meant multicraft, not mineclone. 17:55 hlqkj i can play whatever i want... but a new player who opens minetest.. will or will not stop in the first, say 3 or 4 pages? on average i mean 17:56 hlqkj i don't actually care after all, i don't own a server myself and the ones i'm into, would be well far down in the list anyways 17:56 hlqkj but it just didn't seemed right to my eyes, that's it 17:57 VanessaE I don't imagine a new player will bother with more than the first couple of pages, assuming they don't use the search feature. 17:57 hlqkj last example, hope this time i'll explain well. 17:57 hlqkj i decide to develop an android app, and my dev community decide to target only android 10 and up 17:58 hlqkj but, my own app store allows apps from android 4 and up... 17:58 hlqkj where do you think my app will be? 17:58 VanessaE I couldn't say 17:58 hlqkj *considering the current version distribution across the existing user base 17:58 VanessaE which one is more likely to be found by everyone else? 17:59 numzero considering how fast Android versions obsolete... targeting latest (at the time) version sounds reasonable 17:59 hlqkj if you just rank it by amount of users, the larger the user base, the upper it will be 18:00 Krock is 6.0 obsolete already? 18:00 Krock thinking of it.. it's been a long time since I received system updates 18:00 hlqkj it's been time we got 5.x out, yet (for mt community decision) a fairly large part of the mt user base is under unofficial clients 18:00 hlqkj if those clients doesn't support 5.x servers 18:01 hlqkj and if in the same server list someone accepts both 0.4 and 5 18:01 hlqkj flood will occur for sure 18:01 numzero probably 18:01 numzero yet... 18:02 Krock F towards those hybrid servers. many optimizations are missing there 18:02 numzero assume that client updates to 5.x 18:02 hlqkj then there'll be no more unfairness 18:02 Krock 0.4.x is somewhat outdated by now, and except on iOS there's at least one binary for every common platform 18:03 numzero um, wait 18:03 numzero multicraft doesn’t allow connection to non-multicraft servers, does it? 18:03 numzero that’s not due to protocol difference 18:03 numzero more like moderation 18:03 VanessaE curation, if anything 18:04 VanessaE and even that word is a poor descriptor.. 18:04 Krock weird. I saw those a while back on the server list 18:04 Krock but now they're apparently gone 18:04 VanessaE there are 16 of them at the moment 18:04 hlqkj that idk and render things actually worst to me 18:04 VanessaE they still show in the master list on http://servers.minetest.net/ 18:04 VanessaE no excuse me, not 16 18:05 VanessaE 11 of them 18:06 hlqkj idk, just explain that in the last 2 years of me playing mt every day, by some chance the first page have always been mc ones 18:06 hlqkj explain how* 18:06 MTDiscord I wonder if there’s fake users judging by what the App Store allows these days when it comes to bullshit 18:07 MTDiscord See shovel ware 18:07 VanessaE some of my servers used to grace the top 10, even had one or another at #1 a number of times. I have no idea why they've fallen-off. 18:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome 18:07 hlqkj VanessaE: i've been told i missed a lot, by joining minetest too late :) 18:08 numzero hlqkj: probably because Multicraft attracts A LOT of players? 18:08 numzero probably because it has such a shiny wrapping MT lacks? 18:08 hlqkj but why so? (not on debating now, pure curiosity) 18:08 hlqkj i never actually tried it 18:08 MTDiscord It’s probably App Store shovelware 18:09 numzero rather, Google Play 18:09 numzero I can’t know the actual reasons but I see visible things: 18:09 hlqkj would be interesting to know how much of their user base is using the official mt client app 18:09 numzero MC is attractive for those who prefers to click “install” and then “play” 18:10 hlqkj bc we can connect to them, but the opposite isn't true 18:10 hlqkj and we allow our users to see their servers, while they (i take this from here, i didn't know) don't 18:10 MTDiscord All I’m hearing is remove multicraft from the list 18:10 hlqkj not from me 18:11 hlqkj more like, take more params into account.. like protocol version 18:11 MTDiscord If they can’t use MT servers why even bother letting them use the MT list 18:11 hlqkj because, mt users can use their servers 18:12 MTDiscord Why should we accommodate Multi users when they’re unable to use MT servers 18:12 VanessaE I favor ejecting multicraft servers from the list. 18:12 VanessaE or deranking the hell out of them 18:12 VanessaE put them at the bottom. 18:12 MTDiscord It’s even a hostile fork because they simply won’t let users out of the bucket their in 18:12 hlqkj i agree 18:13 hlqkj not that, you're free to keep your users. unfair to steal other's 18:13 MTDiscord They could be playing far better games like CTF or what not 18:13 numzero would they? 18:13 hlqkj agree with what VE said* 18:15 MTDiscord Yes and the problem is that MT servers are effectively non connectable on the multicraft client despite using the same server list 18:16 hlqkj it's not a problem of mt in my vision 18:16 MTDiscord It is actually 18:16 hlqkj when mt dropped the old protocol, someone managed to patch their code to accept both 0.4 and 5 18:17 MTDiscord Because it’s technically telling users they can only play what the fork developer chooses 18:17 hlqkj don't you see some (legit) tactic in that? 18:17 numzero that’s not a problem but a political decision 18:17 numzero I restate: Multicraft’s maintainer *will not* let his users connect to the servers he can’t moderate 18:17 numzero as he tells, to keep the age rating low 18:18 MTDiscord What is content not rated by ESRB and similar 18:18 MTDiscord Or even online interactions as most released titles have that 18:18 numzero https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10188#issuecomment-751342218 18:18 numzero I might have read that a bit wrongly 18:18 MTDiscord Parents using parental controls properly 18:19 MTDiscord LMAO 18:19 MTDiscord That has never fucking happened in the history of tablets 18:19 hlqkj lol 18:19 sofar it's fine that he limits the client 18:19 sofar he should just run his own master server instead 18:19 numzero so you see, he *does* want to moderate the servers 18:20 numzero sofar: exactly 18:20 sofar the tools are available for him to do so 18:20 hlqkj the whole thing isn't about what mc decides to do, though 18:20 sofar they're free and OSS 18:20 rubenwardy he should just run his own master server instead 18:20 rubenwardy he does 18:20 rubenwardy http://servers.multicraft.world/ 18:20 MTDiscord I lack the required English to articulate what so far said 18:20 numzero he also runs a metric ton of miniservers not listed anywhere 18:20 sofar do his servers announce on multiple lists? 18:21 rubenwardy Either that, or that serverlist filters from the main list 18:21 sofar ask him to host his own serverlist then 18:21 numzero but basically, server *software* doesn’t matter much IMO 18:21 numzero it’s the game that matters, doesn’t it? 18:22 numzero are these 90+players servers all running Multicraft *game*? 18:22 sofar unfair market competition is unfair market competition 18:22 hlqkj then why this what does ranking has to do with gameplay quality? 18:22 MTDiscord Games don’t matter when it’s dogshit ads placed everywhere 18:22 hlqkj that was what i tried to say at first 18:22 sofar he's using his market power to draw more clients 18:22 rubenwardy numzero: no 18:22 rubenwardy there's on with a different game 18:22 hlqkj sofar: precisely 18:22 sofar it's anticompetitive in nature and effect 18:23 hlqkj now the (political?) question is, are all the mt community ok with this? 18:23 MTDiscord Most app devs who have ads are snakes and will only change from extreme social pressure 18:24 MTDiscord They’re not in it to contribute back 18:24 rubenwardy monte has contributed back, however 18:24 rubenwardy that's not a very fair statement. Ad homiem 18:24 MTDiscord This community was built on that back in 2011 18:24 hlqkj i started this debate with the word "fair". i download mt, and see mc atop the list. good servers, totally ok to me. but if i download mc, will i see ctf, or one of VE server, or whatever? 18:25 rubenwardy no 18:25 hlqkj ok, so.. just find a way to balance things.. a bit more? 18:25 rubenwardy That's precisely the problem - their apps unfairly boost their servers 18:26 VanessaE then why are we arguing about this? just de-rank or ban multicraft servers and be done with it 18:26 rubenwardy former is done. Later may be a bit too far imo 18:26 hlqkj ^ ^ ^ 18:26 VanessaE no it isn't, rubenwardy 18:26 MTDiscord What annoys me most is server owners ignore desktop users in favour of the plentiful mobile users 18:26 MTDiscord Which result in MT staying shit 18:27 hlqkj not again 18:27 VanessaE check the master list, three of the top 10 are multicraft. 4 in the top 20. 18:27 hlqkj a desktop user will be attracted to a MC server the same way a mobile will 18:27 rubenwardy Well, I can't check the server list currently :D 18:27 VanessaE well 3 only, now. it varies. 18:28 VanessaE rubenwardy: no browser? 18:28 hlqkj if things keeps going on this way, the tendency will be mt loosing all of its user base? 18:28 rubenwardy oh right, it's just HTTP that's broken. HTTPS works 18:28 hlqkj here it works, but friends telling me it's off for them 18:28 MTDiscord I’ve been working on a game with now reaching 10sloc 18:28 VanessaE http works for me just fine 18:28 MTDiscord 10k SLOC 18:29 numzero rubenwardy: all 4 servers with 40+ players right now are Multicraft 18:29 rubenwardy a whole 10 lines? Holy crap 18:29 numzero Multicraft *game* 18:29 numzero among 7 servers with 20+ players, 6 are Multicraft 18:30 numzero so I can offer what I wanted to offer 18:31 numzero grouping/filtering servers by game 18:32 numzero in the GUI 18:34 numzero Jordach: and MT core devs ignore mobile users in favour of desktop users 18:35 MTDiscord Yeet 18:35 guestabc I'm just here to write that there are few servers who use multicraft as a way for getting players on both old and new MT clients to play in one same server, but are not listed in multicraft serverlist because they're not targetting multicraft users 18:36 guestabc you can compare multicraft serverlist and minetest serverlist side by side, not all multicraft servers are on multicraft list 18:36 numzero guestabc: do you mean Multicraft *game* or Multicraft *server*? 18:36 VanessaE we know, guestabc. 18:37 numzero (the distinction inherited from Minetest btw) 18:40 DivideByZero What does this mean? "sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Only apply uptime penalty on repeated restarts" There is going to be some penalty for restarting a server? 18:41 rubenwardy DivideByZero: there was a penalty for restarting a server 18:41 hlqkj so... i speak here 1st time, i cause a debate and the collapse of the whole minetest server list? LOL 18:41 rubenwardy now the penalty only applies if you restart enough times in one go - this aims to detect crash loops 18:41 MTDiscord The website is pointless 18:41 hlqkj it's been unreachable for clients for 1h+ 18:41 MTDiscord Because clients rank by player count 18:42 DivideByZero What is "the penalty"? 18:42 VanessaE huh, he's right. website loads fine, but my client can't reach it 18:43 rubenwardy server list ranking 18:43 * hlqkj is always fine. UwU 18:43 DivideByZero So lower rank on the list? 18:43 rubenwardy yeah 18:43 rubenwardy but only for a short time, if there's lots of restarts 18:43 DivideByZero So if I am testing out a new mod and need to restart a few times should I change the send to server list to false to avoid being penalized? 18:44 rubenwardy you should probably test out locally 18:44 rubenwardy you could do that though 18:44 DivideByZero ok, thanks for the info. 18:45 rubenwardy OK, the penalty applies if you have more than one restart in the last 2 hours 18:45 hlqkj seems fair 18:45 rubenwardy and then it's up to 8 point deducted, depending on how recently 18:45 rubenwardy up to an hour 18:45 rubenwardy so no penalty once you reach an hour 18:45 DivideByZero Oh, I've restarted more times than that in 10 minutes before. 18:46 TommyTreasure so, what if i have a mod on an automatic update, and it causes my server start script to loop? 18:46 rubenwardy before, it applied to all server - so the only change here is that it only applies if it's restarted twice, rather than once 18:46 rubenwardy Then the penalty is correctly applied 18:46 guestabc numzero: multicraft *server*, there are multicraft server running non-multicraft_game that you can see appearing from time to time (including one that says minetest, probably using minetest game) and the giveaway that server is multicraft because the version number is 2.0.0 or similar instead of 5.x or 0.4.x 18:47 hlqkj never auto-update a mod, imho 18:47 DivideByZero minetest.net uses an invalid security certificate. 18:47 DivideByZero 18:47 DivideByZero The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed. 18:47 rubenwardy www.minetest.net not minetest.net 18:47 rubenwardy complain to c55 18:48 numzero guestabc: so there is no problem in my suggestion 18:48 guestabc *inb4 uses wildcard cert* 18:48 numzero btw I have been suggesting that a long time ago, in a menu redesign debate 18:48 DivideByZero He should set up a forwarder to forward minetest.net to www.minetest.net, easy to do, 18:48 rubenwardy he did 18:48 rubenwardy it uses a self signed cert 18:49 numzero I mean, filtering by game, or just showing a game icon in the list 18:49 DivideByZero He could get a free Let's Encrypt certificiate instead. 18:50 DivideByZero Or not use encryption at all, a forwarder doesnt seem it should really need encryption, and the site being forwarded to has it already. 18:51 DivideByZero oh, the site being forwarded too does not have encryption. 18:51 TommyTreasure so, what's going on with the server list. i have both 0.4 and 5.4 clients running, and nothing in the list 18:51 DivideByZero so, why would the forwarder> 18:51 numzero that would help players wanting to try something new (aka anything other that the most popular game in the list, be that multicraft, or minetest in the case of multicraft ban/derank) 18:51 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/32 given this issue, funny how your targeting multicraft servers now i really like Nerzhil comment "you will only make them being rogue inside the server list" pretty much gave forks a reason to go rouge on the serverlist 18:51 TommyTreasure its been almost an hour 18:51 rubenwardy http://minetest.net forwards as well 18:53 MTDiscord given this comment "Allowing forks to use the server list (provided they behave) is very much in the spirit of FOSS. Disallowing forks in general would unnecessarily fragment the Minetest player base while bringing few advantages. Besides, the majority of forks (or variants) don't do anything we would consider undesirable." does that mean multicraft servers are not behaving then? 18:54 DivideByZero web sites that didn't accept payments didn't use to need security certificates, but thanks to Google's power of control, they are trying to push everyone into getting one. 18:54 VanessaE DivideByZero: https also keeps crap ISPs from inserting ads. 18:54 numzero VanessaE: WTF? 18:54 VanessaE and spying on the content in general 18:54 VanessaE numzero: what> 18:54 numzero where are there on the globe ISPs inserting ads? 18:54 DivideByZero or perhaps makes it slightly more difficuly for the government to spy on what people are doing, but they can still do it anyways. 18:55 MTDiscord Intel ME and AMD PSP lookin like 18:55 VanessaE numzero: I don't know if anyone's still doing it now, but in the past it has been seen on a few "local" ISPs 18:55 numzero also to prevent spying one needs to make sure the cert owner is the website owner 18:55 numzero but the browser will happily accept *any* cert signed by some “trusted authority” 18:56 DivideByZero ISP still spy on your DNS requests, and still know where you are going, unless you use al alternate DNS like DOH or one of the other safer types. But even still when you use DOH now you put your DNS into some other companies hands that can now spy on you. 18:56 Hawk777 “local” like Comcast? https://gizmodo.com/comcast-is-injecting-ads-right-into-web-pages-at-its-pu-1632327503 I thought they were pretty major (not that I live in the US, so I don’t really know much about them). 18:57 Hawk777 Though that was years ago now. 18:57 TommyTreasure ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Failure when receiving data from the peer) (response code 0) 18:58 hlqkj yup. been like this for some time... 18:59 TommyTreasure if i posted that error as often as it appears in my logs, be considered as spamming?  LOL 19:00 DivideByZero My humble opinion: I don't like that the server list now only shows the top few servers and for the rest you have to click 'see more'. 19:00 DivideByZero So basically if you aren't at the top of the list your server is now very easy to ignore or never even see. 19:00 VanessaE DivideByZero: er, I can just scroll? 19:01 numzero DivideByZero: what is the client you are using? 19:01 DivideByZero Vanessa: only after you click 'see more' 19:01 VanessaE no 19:01 VanessaE not here. 19:01 VanessaE https://imgur.com/DQnoXLK.png 19:01 DivideByZero sorry 'show more' not 'see more' 19:01 DivideByZero That's what I am seeing using Firefox. 19:01 VanessaE firefox?? 19:02 VanessaE um 19:02 VanessaE minetest doesn't go through a browser. 19:02 DivideByZero The server list does, and that's what I am referring to. 19:02 hlqkj VE: meaning the client is updating the server list for you? 19:02 DivideByZero http://www.minetest.net/servers/ 19:02 VanessaE hlqkj: yeah, that ^ is just now. 19:02 VanessaE DivideByZero: wrong url 19:02 hlqkj uhm, still nothing here... 19:02 VanessaE https://servers.minetest.net/ 19:02 VanessaE is the correct url 19:03 TommyTreasure @DivideByZero, it's a known fact that people don't 'scroll' past the first page.  especially children 19:03 numzero VanessaE: no 19:03 DivideByZero Oh, that list looks better. But then I have the question, why is there two? 19:03 numzero the URL is correct 19:03 VanessaE numzero: no, it isn't. 19:03 VanessaE the URL I just gave is the master list. 19:03 VanessaE the other one is not. :) 19:03 numzero I see both 19:03 Krock one embeds the other 19:03 DivideByZero Having two server lists seems to just add to the confusion. 19:03 numzero Krock: exactly 19:03 VanessaE exactly, Krock 19:03 Krock good 19:03 VanessaE one is just a wrapper around the other. 19:04 Krock so we've settled this 19:04 numzero but the wrapper is nicer and has a link to the full list 19:04 VanessaE use the URL I gave. it's what clients see. 19:04 numzero it should be labelled correspondingly though 19:04 VanessaE they do NOT use the paged list. 19:04 TommyTreasure Krock, please load a client and see for yourself.  there is not server list displayed in the client. and the default entry for server's minetest.conf, points to "servers.minetest.net" 19:04 numzero VanessaE: but on the website, the link leads to https://www.minetest.net/servers/ 19:04 hlqkj try googling "minetest serverlist" and see which one is the first result 19:05 DivideByZero TommyTreasure: That's probably why Facebook created the 'infinite scroll'. 19:05 hlqkj sadly, the fancy one with the "Show more" link 19:05 VanessaE numzero: I repeat. clients do not use the paged list. they use the one I linked to. 19:05 * TommyTreasure ignores dumb excuses if they refer to faceboodk 19:11 VanessaE TommyTreasure: I just did, it works now. 19:11 numzero VanessaE: clients use https://servers.minetest.net/list 19:11 Krock TommyTreasure: yes, that's the announcement URL 19:11 numzero AFAIK 19:11 VanessaE numzero: which is just a json-encoded version of what's on the main URL> 19:11 Krock and that link from numzero just now is in fact the json that's used by the client 19:11 VanessaE it is not paged. 19:11 hlqkj my client is still not downloading it 19:11 TommyTreasure not here 19:11 TommyTreasure 2021-03-15 12:06:00: ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Timeout was reached) (response code 0) 19:11 Krock TommyTreasure: increase curl timeout 19:11 TommyTreasure that's PDT btw 19:11 Krock response code 0 means that there's no connection 19:11 Krock otherwise you'd get a DNS error, or server status error, whatsoever 19:11 TommyTreasure it has worked fine for 4 years, why all of a sudden do i need to change MY config 19:11 Krock also consider nslookup to ensure that you can connect to it 19:11 hlqkj ruben said about http not working while https yes... perhaps that? 19:11 Krock TommyTreasure: you don't. perhaps the server is slow at processing. give it some more time. 19:11 Krock hlqkj: CURL should handle both the same way without a blink 19:11 TommyTreasure neither of my client apps are showing anything on the join tab.  0.4.17.1 and 5.4.0 19:11 hlqkj yet my client doesn't load it since 1+h ago 19:11 Krock that indicates a network problem. what does nslookup show, TommyTreasure ? 19:11 TommyTreasure sorry, only my favorites, and the 'Joining...' 19:11 MTDiscord @Bastranoob dont you also have issues with the serverlist from time to time? 19:11 hlqkj nslookup does fine 19:11 Krock server list works fine here 19:11 Krock (web and minetest client) 19:11 hlqkj ping does too 19:11 TommyTreasure Non-authoritative answer: 19:11 TommyTreasure Name:    kitsunemimi.pw 19:11 TommyTreasure Addresses:  2a00:1768:6001:a::f 19:11 TommyTreasure 185.107.80.107 19:11 TommyTreasure Aliases:  servers.minetest.net 19:11 hlqkj and adding https:// to my minetest.conf did the trick 19:11 Krock that looks good 19:11 hlqkj so, as rubenwardy said, on server-side somewthing is wrong with http 19:11 DivideByZero I'm seeing a message "Try reenabling public serverlist and check your internet connection." 19:11 Krock same addresses from my side 19:11 TommyTreasure again, why do i need to edit a default installation of minetest 19:11 Krock why not 19:11 TommyTreasure this is from the client 19:11 hlqkj you don't need to -- just pointing out what the problem is 19:11 DivideByZero If my internet wasn't working I wouldn't be talking on IRC. :P 19:11 VanessaE I don't even have the serverlist URL set in my .conf 19:11 Krock DivideByZero: wait where's that? 19:11 VanessaE might be why it's working noe 19:11 VanessaE now* 19:11 DivideByZero Krock: I see it in the place the server description would normally be, in the client, and using the latest dev client from github. 19:11 TommyTreasure ok, let me see if i understand this correctly.  2 hours ago, all loaded fine.  in the past hour, none of the servers show on the join, unless they're in my favorites.  however, i can still join any in my favorites, so the connection is fine. 19:11 Krock o.O 19:11 DivideByZero After my favorites it shows "Loading..." 19:11 TommyTreasure exactly 19:12 DivideByZero and it's in the description for that. 19:12 VanessaE TommyTreasure: so something broke in the master server list itself.. what's the big deal? 19:12 Krock from builtin/mainmenu/serverlistmgr.lua 19:12 VanessaE it'll be fixed I'm sure 19:12 hlqkj ^ ^ ^ 19:12 TommyTreasure the big deal is being asked to change my config for someone else's error, rather than just giving an answer to my question 19:13 Krock DivideByZero: that's a default value which is usually replaced by the actual server list as soon it's loaded 19:13 VanessaE well there's your answer. :) something broke 19:13 TommyTreasure something has been broken in minetest, ever since i started using 04.14  :) 19:13 hlqkj lol 19:13 Krock building minetest master now 19:13 DivideByZero Krock: Ok, but it's not being loaded anymore, so the message is there semi-permanently now, until someone fixes the issue. 19:13 hlqkj could be the time to set the default setting to use https perhaps! 19:14 Krock DivideByZero: you could see a timeout error in debug.txt when the 4 seconds (IIRC default) are exceeded 19:14 DivideByZero BRB, AFK for like 5 minutes. 19:15 Krock minetest master works just fine 19:15 Krock must be a network issue or the server list blocked your IP 19:16 TommyTreasure if it's blocked my ip, its using 2 different ways to identify me.  i'm in the USA, and my server isn't 19:16 hlqkj (facepalm) 19:17 Krock AI is taking over! 19:17 Krock duck and run 19:17 TommyTreasure i wonder if i still have an old backup copy of my doom server.  at least that ran 19:18 TommyTreasure and i'd probably get the same amount of joins with doom, as i do with mt.  ZERO 19:19 hlqkj Krock: would you try this: curl http://servers.minetest.net (http, without -s) and see if it works for you? 19:19 Krock hlqkj: works just fine 19:19 hlqkj sorry ** /list missing 19:19 VanessaE works for me 19:20 VanessaE with and without /list 19:20 hlqkj bc here, it doesn't work 19:20 Hawk777 Without /list, works for me; with /list, takes a few seconds and then returns data. 19:20 Krock http list does not 19:20 VanessaE though it does delay for a second or so before it loadfs. 19:20 VanessaE -f 19:20 TommyTreasure so the entire US west coast is blocked? 19:20 hlqkj whereas https does instantly 19:20 hlqkj im in EU so guess we're blocked too... GDPR again? LOL 19:20 Krock "curl http://servers.minetest.net/list" just stalls for a while and eventually returns something 19:20 DivideByZero back 19:21 TommyTreasure world record!  Minetest blocks the world  LOL 19:21 Hawk777 HTTPS seems to be faster for me, about 1 second, while HTTP takes 3–6 seconds. 19:21 hlqkj curl: (7) Failed to connect to servers.minetest.net port 80: Timed out 19:21 TommyTreasure Hawk777, and others.  in a default setup, minetest doesn't look for the servers via https 19:21 Hawk777 I am aware of that. I was providing data. I was not making claims. 19:21 hlqkj yeah, that was my concern too 19:21 Hawk777 As you might see I also provided data for HTTP connections. 19:23 DivideByZero Does anyone use 'xp_redo' on their servers or is there an alternate mod for xp? It seems to be broken. 19:23 DivideByZero But I'd really like to have xp on my server, for added fun. 19:23 TommyTreasure what would really be nice, would to get an informative response from the server list maintainer, about an estimated time for normal operation 19:23 Krock windows xp 19:23 MTDiscord ask sfan5 19:23 MTDiscord however people have lives and he may be busy atm 19:23 DivideByZero Krock: wrong xp, but that was likely a joke. 19:23 TommyTreasure doesn't sfan5 monitor this channel? 19:24 MTDiscord >"however people have lives and he may be busy atm" 19:24 Krock yes sure they monitor it 24/7 even in sleep 19:24 hlqkj lol 19:24 MTDiscord ^also this lol 19:24 DivideByZero joke: People have lives outside of Minetest during coronavirus? 19:24 Krock so mentioning your issue more often results in way better results and the issue will be resolved in an instant 19:24 TommyTreasure everybody seems to start telling others how to "get around the problem" rather than  letting those in charge make an annoncement 19:24 Krock (jk don't do it) 19:24 MTDiscord or pms 19:25 TommyTreasure the instant has been lingering for over an hour :) 19:25 MTDiscord a typically wok day is 8hrs here, are they only a hour where your at? 19:25 MTDiscord *a typical work 19:26 MTDiscord also since when did krock, a minetest core dev, not count as "in charge"? 19:26 TommyTreasure you obviously have never been self employed 19:26 DivideByZero Johnathan work days here died out over a year ago when everything was shutdown for the plandemic. 19:26 TommyTreasure since when did Jonathon become my master 19:27 Krock > plandemic 19:27 TommyTreasure for sure! 19:27 Krock suspiciously panned 19:27 MTDiscord > According to data from the International Labour Organization, only 12.4 percent of workers are self-employed on average in high-income economies while in low-income economies, this figure rises to 81.9 percent. interesting 19:27 Krock *planed 19:27 MTDiscord planed for panning the virus? :p 19:28 DivideByZero *planned, and yes. 19:28 hlqkj congrats! ^^^ 19:28 MTDiscord lol 19:28 hlqkj lol 19:28 VanessaE yeah, that's gonna stop right now. 19:29 Krock SIGSEGV also stops quite fast 19:29 VanessaE heh 19:29 DivideByZero I'm self employed, at least I was before coronavirus. 19:30 Krock DivideByZero: until your employer fired you. tough personalities.... 19:30 VanessaE Krock: mind merging https://github.com/minetest-mods/skinsdb/pull/59 so I can close the browser tab? :) 19:30 TommyTreasure self-employed means you oinly have to work half a day, and you get to pick which half 19:30 Krock VanessaE: uuh well 19:30 Krock how about bell? are they no longer active? 19:31 Krock a few commits in the last weeks 19:31 VanessaE *shrug* 19:31 DivideByZero Self employed can often mean you work all day without pay on some days. 19:31 Krock oh well -.- maybe tomorrow 19:32 Krock seeing all those constants makes me almost try 19:32 Krock s/try/cry/ 19:32 VanessaE heh 19:32 MTDiscord Was their any attempt to reach out to MultiCraft to tell them to change their server promotion before applying https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3? 19:32 VanessaE can't really be helped :) 19:32 Krock sfx() https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1pAlrFDTu8 19:33 MTDiscord luk: not that i saw at all, nothing in issues or PR's 19:34 MTDiscord seems sfan5 just did it 19:35 MTDiscord of the 3, only one i can find a issue for is https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/37 19:36 DivideByZero Servers that still support v 4 are also being penalized? "specificially, penalize servers that support both v4 and v5 Reasoning: We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version." 19:38 TommyTreasure minetest is being penalized 19:41 DivideByZero "# reduction to 40% for servers that support both legacy (v4) and v5 clients" 19:41 rubenwardy doesn't effect servers that just support v4, only multicraft servers 19:42 MTDiscord so basically it targeted a fork 19:42 DivideByZero 40% what? 19:42 VanessaE Jonathon a fork that doesn't play fairly to begin with. 19:43 DivideByZero So multicraft will be placed lower on the server list? 19:43 MTDiscord VanessaE: https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/32 19:43 VanessaE DivideByZero: in theory but they're still showing a few in the top 10 19:43 VanessaE off and on 19:44 luk3yx So the answer to my question is no? 19:44 VanessaE what was the question? 19:44 TommyTreasure and i'll bet that an apple store will never put up a sign claiming the top 3 phones are androids.  :) 19:44 VanessaE Jonathon not relevant. 19:45 VanessaE Jonathon multicraft servers only work with their own client or something like that. 19:45 VanessaE whilst showing up in regular clients' lists 19:45 luk3yx Was their any attempt to reach out to MultiCraft to tell them to change their server promotion before applying https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3? 19:45 DivideByZero Vanessa: Are you sure? I've played Multicraft with the Minetest client before. 19:45 VanessaE maybe it's the other way around then 19:45 VanessaE I don't rememebr 19:46 DivideByZero I've never used the Multicraft client. 19:46 DivideByZero While we are kind of on this subject, yesterday I came across a website claming to have "Minetest-final" 19:47 VanessaE no 19:47 DivideByZero Wasn't really sure what that was all about, maybe some other fork? 19:47 MTDiscord no 19:47 VanessaE get the hell away from that site. 19:47 DivideByZero I prefer to use the official anyways. 19:47 TommyTreasure i thought Multicraft was actually a hosting service for MineCraft servers -- https://multicraft.org/ 19:47 DivideByZero It did look a bit sketchy. 19:47 luk3yx And can't MultiCraft servers just start pretending to be 5.X on the MT serverlist? 19:48 MTDiscord or if they split there listing couldnt the restriction be bypassed? 19:48 DivideByZero Tommy on that page you just shared it says "The Complete Minecraft Server Hosting Solution and Control Panel". Minecraft vs Minetest ?? 19:49 TommyTreasure wouldn't that indicate an infringement on either trademark and/or copyright of a MineCraft service? 19:50 luk3yx Hi 19:51 DivideByZero Vanessa: the url for that site is: https://minetest.org/ 19:52 VanessaE GTFO 19:52 VanessaE get out of here with that site 19:52 MTDiscord whats going on with the serverlist? First, minetest doesnt seem to be showing the serverlist anymore, second, it looks like on https://servers.minetest.net/ all multicraft servers are gone? 19:52 TommyTreasure i totally agree!!!!!!!!!~ 19:52 luk3yx No saying the link here 19:52 Krock VanessaE: http://minetest.com/ 19:53 DivideByZero If it's a scam site why doesn't it get shut down? It claims that it's built by one of the oldest senoir devs of Minetest, named OldCoder 19:53 luk3yx MultiCraft servers are penalised now 19:53 MTDiscord use https, and see https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3e3c40a52ee423466f19f8eff37f859111 19:53 DivideByZero And the site refers to Minetest 5 as 'Old Minetest 5' lol. 19:53 DivideByZero "There are two major versions of Minetest: Old Minetest 5 and Final Minetest." 19:54 TommyTreasure DivideByZero, you're not making any friends with that information 19:54 DivideByZero "Old Minetest 5 isn't backwards compatible with old clients or modsets. The fork is run by hostile and largely anonymous parties. It's not a group that most parents and schools would choose to be involved with." 19:55 TommyTreasure i would also suggest you use a TOR browser to visit that site 19:55 DivideByZero Why did you kick me for simply sharing information Vanessa? 19:56 DivideByZero I was alerting to the site, not promoting it. 19:56 VanessaE Krock: at least minetest.com is just an old fan-promotional site and doesn't point people to fake sites :) 19:56 luk3yx DivideByZero: You said the website 19:56 luk3yx People here don't like that website being mentioned 19:56 VanessaE DivideByZero: because I said to get out of here with it. 19:56 DivideByZero Wow! 19:56 DivideByZero So much for an open community to be safe to safe information. 19:56 DivideByZero safe to share* 19:57 MTDiscord Thats the thing: Its not a safe site. 19:57 VanessaE that guy has a long history of lying, trashing people. 19:57 TommyTreasure you're pouring salt on an open wound 19:57 grumble DivideByZero maybe if you read your private messages you wouldnt run into awkward situations like this 19:57 MTDiscord >people responding to DMs or /msg 19:57 MTDiscord i know a few people like that 19:57 DivideByZero I didn't notice I had a message from you until you just told me to check. 19:58 luk3yx https://xkcd.com/1357/ 19:58 VanessaE get a better IRC client that doesn't hide your /msgs :) 19:58 DivideByZero Getting kicked for mentioning a site seems like this channel is turning into a dictatorship, or a communist party. You could have politely explained your issue with it. 19:58 MTDiscord that would fall under technical competencies VE 19:59 VanessaE DivideByZero: getting kicked for mentioning it, then being told NOT to mention it, then mentioning it again. 19:59 VanessaE to be clear. 19:59 TommyTreasure DBZ that's worse than my insults to the dev team.  i suggest you drop the subject 19:59 MTDiscord Minetest has always been a republic dictatorship 19:59 calcul0n_ yeah, biggest problem with dictators is when they kick people from irc :p 19:59 DivideByZero To be clear you didn't say don't mention that site, you said "get out of here with that site". 20:00 VanessaE um 20:00 DivideByZero And explaination of why you feel that way would have been helpful. 20:00 TommyTreasure and you insist on talking about it 20:00 DivideByZero and an* .. 20:00 VanessaE doesn't it follow that if someone says get out, that talking further about it is kinda a bad idea? 20:00 DivideByZero And as I also said, if it is such a sore spot, why don't you all get the site shut down? Then no one could mention it. 20:01 VanessaE we have no control over it. 20:01 MTDiscord don't you think we've already t r i e d that 20:01 DivideByZero "Cease and desist order" 20:01 MTDiscord Well 20:01 MTDiscord if it's a stupid question, we've already answered it years ago 20:01 TommyTreasure dvz, with that theory, why don't you get freenode shutdown for allowing someone to kick you 20:01 DivideByZero Is Minetest trademarked? 20:01 VanessaE it's a scam website run by a hostile user who has no connection to Minetest anymore. 20:01 DivideByZero If it's trademarked you have rights. 20:01 VanessaE no it isn't. and in fact HE tried to trademark it, or threatened to. 20:02 VanessaE so just stop talking about it 20:02 DivideByZero Well Trademark it then. 20:02 DivideByZero Then you have the crontrol back. 20:02 MTDiscord >open source 20:02 MTDiscord >money 20:02 MTDiscord KEK 20:02 TommyTreasure i would never use he in caps in reference to him 20:02 VanessaE TommyTreasure: emphasis only. 20:02 DivideByZero Trademarking only costs around $400. I trademark my brand names. 20:02 MTDiscord these next words are from someone with experience in here 20:02 MTDiscord DivideByZero: OldCoder drama is best left in the past, no point in stirring a long overcooked pot. 20:03 MTDiscord shut your mouth before it bites you on the arse 20:03 luk3yx Hi appguru 20:03 luk3yx Any progress with modlib? 20:03 MTDiscord Hi luk 20:03 MTDiscord heh 20:03 MTDiscord "progress" lmao 20:04 DivideByZero https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks 20:04 MTDiscord progress. 20:04 MTDiscord that's quite narrow minded -nan 20:05 MTDiscord the world isn't the US 20:05 MTDiscord pretty sure he filed in Australia 20:05 DivideByZero US trademarking helps to protect your marks in some other countries as well. 20:05 MTDiscord I never heard how that went 20:05 MTDiscord Back to topic, why is the serverlist so sluggish? Could it be that someone is DDOSing it? 20:05 DivideByZero China excluded for sure. 20:05 MTDiscord i wonder why 20:05 MTDiscord ? 20:05 TommyTreasure its been down for about 3 hours now 20:07 MTDiscord LOL, oldcoder should have filed trademark in China 20:08 DivideByZero Tommy: Why keep complaining? They already said someone will fix it ..eventually. 20:08 MTDiscord Down? I woulnd't say down. Slow, perhaps. 20:08 MTDiscord wouldnt* 20:08 TommyTreasure are you also my master? 20:08 MTDiscord No, I am your father. 20:08 MTDiscord we aren't slaves or at ransom to random shits like you btw 20:08 MTDiscord +1 20:08 TommyTreasure that would make you at leas 100 years old  LOL 20:08 DivideByZero I get kicked for mentioning a server, maybe you should get a kick for excessive complaining? 20:08 MTDiscord how about read the room and or staff 20:08 VanessaE you got kicked for mentioning a hostile person and his work after being told not to 20:08 MTDiscord zero calm down 20:08 TommyTreasure dvd, do it! 20:08 TommyTreasure dvz, that is 20:08 VanessaE so just stop before someone makes it more permanent. 20:09 TommyTreasure you should research things before you make dumb comments 20:09 jess whoa whats going on here 20:09 rubenwardy trademarking costs $400, and taking down a .org site with a trademark costs $1500 20:09 rubenwardy it's not worth it 20:09 DivideByZero Vanessa: You didn't actually tell me not to, but if that's you opinion I'm not going to argue with your position of authority and be repeatedly kicked, banned, or abused. I'll just accept that you are correct and leave it at that. 20:09 MTDiscord @rubenwardy It's free if you know which path to take :] 20:09 VanessaE good. 20:09 MTDiscord Abused? 20:09 MTDiscord Are you trolling? 20:09 VanessaE because no one here will say I'm wrong :) 20:09 MTDiscord I don't see how anyone is abusing you here 20:10 MTDiscord Stop abusing the english language 20:10 MTDiscord start a gofundme 20:11 MTDiscord you might get enough 20:12 MTDiscord Also MT needs to be a LLC or similar legal entity in order to trademark anything AFAIK 20:12 MTDiscord hold my beer 20:12 DivideByZero Ihr: that's not true. 20:12 VanessaE appguru, well do remember what they say about the English language: other languages grow and evolve. English follows them down dark alleys, beats them senselesss, an rifles through their pockets for new vocabulary. :) 20:12 MTDiscord gtg 20:12 sofar trademarks can be registered to a person 20:12 MTDiscord also this 20:12 MTDiscord Reasoning: We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version. 20:12 MTDiscord Sounds reasonable 20:12 VanessaE appguru which is to say, English is already abusive, so to abuse it in response isn't so horrible :P 20:12 MTDiscord lol 20:13 MTDiscord Reasoning: Hmm... now, #3 on the serverlist is a 0.4.x server... 20:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault 20:13 MTDiscord #3 on the serverlist doesn't matter at all 20:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault 20:13 MTDiscord 5.x clients put it at the end of the serverlist anyways 20:13 VanessaE a 0.4.x server is fine on its own.. 20:13 MTDiscord And let's be honest here, nobody uses the web serverlist 20:14 MTDiscord And if we do, we just filter out 0.4.x 20:14 VanessaE a server that claims to support both protocols by definition needs to limit the 5.0 side to features 0.4 supports 20:14 Hawk777 > We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version. 20:14 Hawk777 A server running actual 0.4 has exactly the same problem, does it not? It is restricting itself to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version? 20:15 MTDiscord TBH I'd penalize 0.4 servers as well 20:15 rubenwardy doesn't make a different 20:18 rubenwardy it's functionally the same to clients, as clients push versions they don't support to the bottom 20:18 MTDiscord Yeah 20:19 MTDiscord Seeing as Multicraft appears to be hiding Minetest servers on Multicraft clients, it is probably fair to penalize their servers on Minetest clients 20:20 MTDiscord Not to mention other questionable affiliations of the MuC-using network... 20:20 MTDiscord If a server can make a game that works with the features of 0.4, whats wrong with that? 20:22 MTDiscord if they can reach a wider audience, Id say more publicity, the better 20:22 MTDiscord People have to be incentivized to upgrade 20:22 MTDiscord why? 20:24 MTDiscord Because supporting 0.4.x is a PITA for all involved. 20:24 MTDiscord And upgrading isn't a remotely comparable PITA. 20:24 Telesight Hello all ... Is something going on with the serverlist? 20:24 MTDiscord well yes, but stuff like FS51 make it easy 20:24 MTDiscord 0.4.x is EOL, people should stop using it 20:24 MTDiscord TBF the serverlist might even stop showing 0.4.x servers entirely IMO 20:24 MTDiscord hmm... Id point out that the default linux packages are still on 0.4 for many OSs 20:24 MTDiscord ^valid point 20:24 MTDiscord Use the snap. 20:24 DivideByZero Debian still offers 0.4 20:36 MTDiscord So a "simple switch" is definitely not viable for MT 20:36 MTDiscord ok... well, I see that even with the serverlist changes, Multicraft is still near the top, and I am satisfied with that. 20:36 MTDiscord DivideByZero: Check. Your. Sources. "Since Ubuntu version 16.04, the spyware search facility is now disabled by default. It appears that the campaign of pressure launched by this article has been partly successful." 20:36 MTDiscord i assume multicraft2 still supports minimum protocol version 20:36 MTDiscord so that would be a "switch" 22:20 Panquesito7 Is Texmex (tacotexmex) available here? 22:40 ar10ch Right, I know it can be done - it's like: U trundle along, u hit something, going forward no longer works but player is still pressing forward, so we'll go up. UNLESS player chooses sneak, because they've found a way around.... Yeah I wanna make a Star Wars style landspeeder that detects the ground in front of it and adjusts its altitude accordingly. But if something similar has already been done then, pls, point me to it, i 22:40 ar10ch dont wanna reinvent the wheel! Sorry for the long description but not sorry - sick of hearing RTFM. Thanks. 22:44 MTDiscord I don't think there's any risk of reinventing the wheel if it's a landspeeder. 22:45 VanessaE camo modpack has hovercraft but they don't work well (moving one moves others)