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| 01:27 |
DivideByZero |
I found a typing error on https://wiki.minetest.net/MinetestEDU |
| 01:27 |
DivideByZero |
"Automatically assing players to an individual construction area " |
| 01:28 |
DivideByZero |
I don't think it's supposed to say 'assing players' on an educational focused page. |
| 01:28 |
DivideByZero |
Someone might want to fix that up. |
| 02:38 |
Calinou |
DivideByZero: fixed :) |
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DivideByZero |
Calinou: *thumbs up* |
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Extexo |
How do I use io.open to open a text file as a lua string? |
| 06:22 |
Extexo |
Oh nvm I'm stupid lol |
| 06:22 |
Extexo |
That's what io.open does |
| 06:22 |
Extexo |
Nevermind |
| 06:22 |
Extexo |
Nobody say this |
| 06:23 |
Extexo |
saw* |
| 06:23 |
Extexo |
Lol |
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| 09:15 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: Devtest: Fix missing log level in minetest.log (#11068) 88f514a https://git.io/JqSDD (2021-03-15T09:13:15Z) |
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| 12:02 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Only apply uptime penalty on repeated restarts 5d5f31d https://git.io/JqH2v (2021-03-15T11:35:02Z) |
| 12:02 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Avoid unnecesary disk writes a9ecf55 https://git.io/JqH2f (2021-03-15T10:38:49Z) |
| 12:02 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Adjust server ranking 9f144f3 https://git.io/JqH2k (2021-03-15T10:27:38Z) |
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| 15:45 |
LoneWolfHT |
Sweet |
| 15:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Why are we explicitly penalizing servers that support both v4 and v5? Why not just penalize servers supporting v4 regardless of whether they're dual or v4-only? That would seem to be more in line with the stated goal in the commit log. |
| 15:52 |
LoneWolfHT |
Servers that support v4 only go to the bottom of the client serverlist and are greyed out |
| 15:52 |
LoneWolfHT |
On the 5.x versions |
| 15:52 |
sfan5 |
those two are effectively the same since clients only see servers that support v5 (or v4) anyway |
| 15:52 |
rubenwardy |
exactly ^ |
| 15:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I guess I just figured it'd be simpler not to check proto max, if it's all the same otherwise. |
| 15:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also, we don't necessarily want to look like we're singling out multicraft or anything... :-| |
| 15:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean, thats effectively what its doing |
| 15:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ironic that a 4x only server is #5 on the list rn lol |
| 15:57 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5 -- Fixed key names so the key set menu now works. by adamnew123456 |
| 15:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That's fine, but I think the principle of the change stands on its own regardless of what effect it may or may not have on a specific project. |
| 15:57 |
rubenwardy |
Worth noting that Multicraft also has its own server list that shows only v4+5 servers. So they use their own clients to boost their servers |
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| 16:38 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Extexo: no, that's not what io.open does |
| 16:38 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> io.open applies a file handle, much like a stream, on which you can call seek, write or read depending on mode |
| 16:39 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> returns* |
| 16:42 |
hlqkj |
don't know if it's appropriate to ask here here, sorry in case. i have a question: seems that copying text from read-only textareas doesn't work anymore on the 5.4 client, is that wanted or a regression? |
| 16:43 |
rubenwardy |
Linux? |
| 16:43 |
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| 16:44 |
hlqkj |
win-64 |
| 17:13 |
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| 17:16 |
hlqkj |
about the serverlist and 0.4 vs 5 thing, i'd like to drop a small point to ponder on. please forgive if i got something wrong in how the ranking works, can still be the case. but since the number of players is taken into account when scoring a server popularity, after the MT community decision to drop the old protocol it's undeniable that servers allowing both 0.4 and 5.x clients in have imho an unfair advantage: just consider the amount unofficial |
| 17:16 |
hlqkj |
clients that are still stuck on 0.4 and that we don't have an official iOS client (or do we?) |
| 17:17 |
hlqkj |
i know that guests are considered like 1/8 iirc? but 1/8*80 avg players is still having a weight compared to 1*10 avg players. also, the average client count score doesn't do distinction between guests and non-guests names, is it? |
| 17:18 |
hlqkj |
like it is now, imho, it is penalizing admins who use the official mt and updated their servers to 5, and as time passes the spread gets worse: who has a high rank get more advertised hence having a chance to rank up, while those who lie at the bottom will likely stay there for time... |
| 17:36 |
numzero |
what’s wrong with “unofficial” clients and servers? MT core devs stated pretty well they have nothing against these |
| 17:36 |
numzero |
by using LGPL instead of AGPL |
| 17:37 |
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| 17:38 |
hlqkj |
i didn't said there is something wrong with them! but if players count is taken into account, then also the availability of clients must be taken into account imho |
| 17:38 |
VanessaE |
certain *cough* forks flood the server list with server entries that I guess work only with their branded client rather than just the generic Minetest client |
| 17:38 |
hlqkj |
if an official mt is only allow 5.x clients, and the whole iOS community doesn't have a client to connect to it, the rank would not be so... impartial |
| 17:38 |
hlqkj |
just my opinion though |
| 17:39 |
hlqkj |
letting aside that, knowing how the ranking algo works, i could easily recompile my mt to "tell the serverlist what it is expecting to rank me up" |
| 17:41 |
hlqkj |
small, insignificant example. we updated a 0.4 to 5, lost at least half a dozen of players that were using an unofficial app on iPads. half a dozen are our average player count |
| 17:41 |
hlqkj |
is that the server lost gameplay quality because we decided it was finally time to update? |
| 17:42 |
numzero |
what does ranking has to do with gameplay quality? |
| 17:42 |
numzero |
popularity is measureable. gameplay quality isn’t |
| 17:42 |
numzero |
and is different for different people |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
gameplay quality is dictated not just by the game content, but by its community |
| 17:43 |
VanessaE |
if you lose valuable, good players, your game quality will decline even if the content remains unchanged. |
| 17:43 |
VanessaE |
or to put it another way: |
| 17:43 |
VanessaE |
if you lose good players, your ratio of good to crap players drops. you have fewer good players to offset the crap players that are also there. |
| 17:44 |
VanessaE |
thus, the quality of everyones' interactions declines. |
| 17:44 |
VanessaE |
'course, that's assuming all those lost in a protocol transition are good players. |
| 17:44 |
hlqkj |
that's good to me, wasn't my point actually... |
| 17:44 |
VanessaE |
(which v0.4 vs v5.x is) |
| 17:45 |
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| 17:45 |
VanessaE |
that said, if they're on iOS, they're probably all hoity-toity, I'm-better-than-you players anyway :) |
| 17:46 |
VanessaE |
you know, typical Apple clientele :) |
| 17:46 |
numzero |
yet they were *all* on iOS |
| 17:46 |
numzero |
so were *good* players for each other, weren’t they? |
| 17:46 |
hlqkj |
not all of them, some are great ones but have parents that are like you say :) |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
but there's another aspect to the whole loss thing: if player count drops too much, a server may become not worth maintaining. |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
numzero: I am joking you know :) |
| 17:47 |
sofar |
I'm not a fan of solving symptoms while leaving the underlying problem alone -> ios need a v5 client |
| 17:48 |
numzero |
what I’m trying to say is that the meaning of “good” and “crap” players is not strictly defined |
| 17:48 |
hlqkj |
players comes and goes, that is normal. the point i was trying to say (forgive if im not so clear, english isn't my main language) is that sorting a list is by definition based on something that must be measurable |
| 17:49 |
hlqkj |
the way you get new players, is by having them noticing a server, which should be easier for servers that are up in the list |
| 17:49 |
hlqkj |
on this, i think everyone could agree, isn't it? |
| 17:49 |
sofar |
the serverlist isn't "one" list per se - it's a list with many different lists embedded inherently |
| 17:49 |
VanessaE |
hlqkj: well the original idea behind the ranking algo was to promote servers with good quality interaction based on things that themselves tend to promote that, like requiring users to create real accounts with passwords, versus a million "guest" accounts |
| 17:49 |
hlqkj |
that i suppose is why "parameters" like, ping, up-time, average players, non-guest clients count have been taken into account |
| 17:50 |
hlqkj |
that is what i meant with "game quality" |
| 17:50 |
VanessaE |
or if a server reboots periodically, it's reasonable to assume they're doing so to make regular backupsl. things like that. |
| 17:50 |
hlqkj |
exactly |
| 17:50 |
sofar |
the other side of the issue is that the serverlist is being used differently by some clients |
| 17:52 |
VanessaE |
sofar: I presume you mean something other than Mineclone flooding the list? |
| 17:53 |
hlqkj |
this easily falls into a "political"-like discussion, lol, which i didn't wanted to |
| 17:53 |
sofar |
multicraft clients don't see non-multicraft servers |
| 17:54 |
hlqkj |
if that's the case, why minetest sees multicraft servers? |
| 17:54 |
sofar |
you can play on them with v5 |
| 17:55 |
hlqkj |
that is, again, not the point i wanted to mark |
| 17:55 |
VanessaE |
er yeah, I meant multicraft, not mineclone. |
| 17:55 |
hlqkj |
i can play whatever i want... but a new player who opens minetest.. will or will not stop in the first, say 3 or 4 pages? on average i mean |
| 17:56 |
hlqkj |
i don't actually care after all, i don't own a server myself and the ones i'm into, would be well far down in the list anyways |
| 17:56 |
hlqkj |
but it just didn't seemed right to my eyes, that's it |
| 17:57 |
VanessaE |
I don't imagine a new player will bother with more than the first couple of pages, assuming they don't use the search feature. |
| 17:57 |
hlqkj |
last example, hope this time i'll explain well. |
| 17:57 |
hlqkj |
i decide to develop an android app, and my dev community decide to target only android 10 and up |
| 17:58 |
hlqkj |
but, my own app store allows apps from android 4 and up... |
| 17:58 |
hlqkj |
where do you think my app will be? |
| 17:58 |
VanessaE |
I couldn't say |
| 17:58 |
hlqkj |
*considering the current version distribution across the existing user base |
| 17:58 |
VanessaE |
which one is more likely to be found by everyone else? |
| 17:59 |
numzero |
considering how fast Android versions obsolete... targeting latest (at the time) version sounds reasonable |
| 17:59 |
hlqkj |
if you just rank it by amount of users, the larger the user base, the upper it will be |
| 18:00 |
Krock |
is 6.0 obsolete already? |
| 18:00 |
Krock |
thinking of it.. it's been a long time since I received system updates |
| 18:00 |
hlqkj |
it's been time we got 5.x out, yet (for mt community decision) a fairly large part of the mt user base is under unofficial clients |
| 18:00 |
hlqkj |
if those clients doesn't support 5.x servers |
| 18:01 |
hlqkj |
and if in the same server list someone accepts both 0.4 and 5 |
| 18:01 |
hlqkj |
flood will occur for sure |
| 18:01 |
numzero |
probably |
| 18:01 |
numzero |
yet... |
| 18:02 |
Krock |
F towards those hybrid servers. many optimizations are missing there |
| 18:02 |
numzero |
assume that client updates to 5.x |
| 18:02 |
hlqkj |
then there'll be no more unfairness |
| 18:02 |
Krock |
0.4.x is somewhat outdated by now, and except on iOS there's at least one binary for every common platform |
| 18:03 |
numzero |
um, wait |
| 18:03 |
numzero |
multicraft doesn’t allow connection to non-multicraft servers, does it? |
| 18:03 |
numzero |
that’s not due to protocol difference |
| 18:03 |
numzero |
more like moderation |
| 18:03 |
VanessaE |
curation, if anything |
| 18:04 |
VanessaE |
and even that word is a poor descriptor.. |
| 18:04 |
Krock |
weird. I saw those a while back on the server list |
| 18:04 |
Krock |
but now they're apparently gone |
| 18:04 |
VanessaE |
there are 16 of them at the moment |
| 18:04 |
hlqkj |
that idk and render things actually worst to me |
| 18:04 |
VanessaE |
they still show in the master list on http://servers.minetest.net/ |
| 18:04 |
VanessaE |
no excuse me, not 16 |
| 18:05 |
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| 18:05 |
VanessaE |
11 of them |
| 18:06 |
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| 18:06 |
hlqkj |
idk, just explain that in the last 2 years of me playing mt every day, by some chance the first page have always been mc ones |
| 18:06 |
hlqkj |
explain how* |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> I wonder if there’s fake users judging by what the App Store allows these days when it comes to bullshit |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> See shovel ware |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
some of my servers used to grace the top 10, even had one or another at #1 a number of times. I have no idea why they've fallen-off. |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:07 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:07 |
hlqkj |
VanessaE: i've been told i missed a lot, by joining minetest too late :) |
| 18:08 |
numzero |
hlqkj: probably because Multicraft attracts A LOT of players? |
| 18:08 |
numzero |
probably because it has such a shiny wrapping MT lacks? |
| 18:08 |
hlqkj |
but why so? (not on debating now, pure curiosity) |
| 18:08 |
hlqkj |
i never actually tried it |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> It’s probably App Store shovelware |
| 18:09 |
numzero |
rather, Google Play |
| 18:09 |
numzero |
I can’t know the actual reasons but I see visible things: |
| 18:09 |
hlqkj |
would be interesting to know how much of their user base is using the official mt client app |
| 18:09 |
numzero |
MC is attractive for those who prefers to click “install” and then “play” |
| 18:10 |
hlqkj |
bc we can connect to them, but the opposite isn't true |
| 18:10 |
hlqkj |
and we allow our users to see their servers, while they (i take this from here, i didn't know) don't |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> All I’m hearing is remove multicraft from the list |
| 18:10 |
hlqkj |
not from me |
| 18:11 |
hlqkj |
more like, take more params into account.. like protocol version |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> If they can’t use MT servers why even bother letting them use the MT list |
| 18:11 |
hlqkj |
because, mt users can use their servers |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Why should we accommodate Multi users when they’re unable to use MT servers |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
I favor ejecting multicraft servers from the list. |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
or deranking the hell out of them |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
put them at the bottom. |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> It’s even a hostile fork because they simply won’t let users out of the bucket their in |
| 18:12 |
hlqkj |
i agree |
| 18:13 |
hlqkj |
not that, you're free to keep your users. unfair to steal other's |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> They could be playing far better games like CTF or what not |
| 18:13 |
numzero |
would they? |
| 18:13 |
hlqkj |
agree with what VE said* |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Yes and the problem is that MT servers are effectively non connectable on the multicraft client despite using the same server list |
| 18:16 |
hlqkj |
it's not a problem of mt in my vision |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> It is actually |
| 18:16 |
hlqkj |
when mt dropped the old protocol, someone managed to patch their code to accept both 0.4 and 5 |
| 18:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Because it’s technically telling users they can only play what the fork developer chooses |
| 18:17 |
hlqkj |
don't you see some (legit) tactic in that? |
| 18:17 |
numzero |
that’s not a problem but a political decision |
| 18:17 |
numzero |
I restate: Multicraft’s maintainer *will not* let his users connect to the servers he can’t moderate |
| 18:17 |
numzero |
as he tells, to keep the age rating low |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> What is content not rated by ESRB and similar |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Or even online interactions as most released titles have that |
| 18:18 |
numzero |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10188#issuecomment-751342218 |
| 18:18 |
numzero |
I might have read that a bit wrongly |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Parents using parental controls properly |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> LMAO |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> That has never fucking happened in the history of tablets |
| 18:19 |
hlqkj |
lol |
| 18:19 |
sofar |
it's fine that he limits the client |
| 18:19 |
sofar |
he should just run his own master server instead |
| 18:19 |
numzero |
so you see, he *does* want to moderate the servers |
| 18:20 |
numzero |
sofar: exactly |
| 18:20 |
sofar |
the tools are available for him to do so |
| 18:20 |
hlqkj |
the whole thing isn't about what mc decides to do, though |
| 18:20 |
sofar |
they're free and OSS |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
<sofar> he should just run his own master server instead |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
he does |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
http://servers.multicraft.world/ |
| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> I lack the required English to articulate what so far said |
| 18:20 |
numzero |
he also runs a metric ton of miniservers not listed anywhere |
| 18:20 |
sofar |
do his servers announce on multiple lists? |
| 18:21 |
rubenwardy |
Either that, or that serverlist filters from the main list |
| 18:21 |
sofar |
ask him to host his own serverlist then |
| 18:21 |
numzero |
but basically, server *software* doesn’t matter much IMO |
| 18:21 |
numzero |
it’s the game that matters, doesn’t it? |
| 18:22 |
numzero |
are these 90+players servers all running Multicraft *game*? |
| 18:22 |
sofar |
unfair market competition is unfair market competition |
| 18:22 |
hlqkj |
then why this <numzero> what does ranking has to do with gameplay quality? |
| 18:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Games don’t matter when it’s dogshit ads placed everywhere |
| 18:22 |
hlqkj |
that was what i tried to say at first |
| 18:22 |
sofar |
he's using his market power to draw more clients |
| 18:22 |
rubenwardy |
numzero: no |
| 18:22 |
rubenwardy |
there's on with a different game |
| 18:22 |
hlqkj |
sofar: precisely |
| 18:22 |
sofar |
it's anticompetitive in nature and effect |
| 18:23 |
hlqkj |
now the (political?) question is, are all the mt community ok with this? |
| 18:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Most app devs who have ads are snakes and will only change from extreme social pressure |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> They’re not in it to contribute back |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
monte has contributed back, however |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
that's not a very fair statement. Ad homiem |
| 18:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> This community was built on that back in 2011 |
| 18:24 |
hlqkj |
i started this debate with the word "fair". i download mt, and see mc atop the list. good servers, totally ok to me. but if i download mc, will i see ctf, or one of VE server, or whatever? |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
no |
| 18:25 |
hlqkj |
ok, so.. just find a way to balance things.. a bit more? |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
That's precisely the problem - their apps unfairly boost their servers |
| 18:26 |
VanessaE |
then why are we arguing about this? just de-rank or ban multicraft servers and be done with it |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy |
former is done. Later may be a bit too far imo |
| 18:26 |
hlqkj |
^ ^ ^ |
| 18:26 |
VanessaE |
no it isn't, rubenwardy |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> What annoys me most is server owners ignore desktop users in favour of the plentiful mobile users |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Which result in MT staying shit |
| 18:27 |
hlqkj |
not again |
| 18:27 |
VanessaE |
check the master list, three of the top 10 are multicraft. 4 in the top 20. |
| 18:27 |
hlqkj |
a desktop user will be attracted to a MC server the same way a mobile will |
| 18:27 |
rubenwardy |
Well, I can't check the server list currently :D |
| 18:27 |
VanessaE |
well 3 only, now. it varies. |
| 18:28 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: no browser? |
| 18:28 |
hlqkj |
if things keeps going on this way, the tendency will be mt loosing all of its user base? |
| 18:28 |
rubenwardy |
oh right, it's just HTTP that's broken. HTTPS works |
| 18:28 |
hlqkj |
here it works, but friends telling me it's off for them |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> I’ve been working on a game with now reaching 10sloc |
| 18:28 |
VanessaE |
http works for me just fine |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> 10k SLOC |
| 18:29 |
numzero |
rubenwardy: all 4 servers with 40+ players right now are Multicraft |
| 18:29 |
rubenwardy |
a whole 10 lines? Holy crap |
| 18:29 |
numzero |
Multicraft *game* |
| 18:29 |
numzero |
among 7 servers with 20+ players, 6 are Multicraft |
| 18:30 |
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| 18:30 |
numzero |
so I can offer what I wanted to offer |
| 18:31 |
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| 18:31 |
numzero |
grouping/filtering servers by game |
| 18:32 |
numzero |
in the GUI |
| 18:33 |
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| 18:34 |
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| 18:34 |
numzero |
Jordach: and MT core devs ignore mobile users in favour of desktop users |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Yeet |
| 18:35 |
guestabc |
I'm just here to write that there are few servers who use multicraft as a way for getting players on both old and new MT clients to play in one same server, but are not listed in multicraft serverlist because they're not targetting multicraft users |
| 18:36 |
guestabc |
you can compare multicraft serverlist and minetest serverlist side by side, not all multicraft servers are on multicraft list |
| 18:36 |
numzero |
guestabc: do you mean Multicraft *game* or Multicraft *server*? |
| 18:36 |
VanessaE |
we know, guestabc. |
| 18:37 |
numzero |
(the distinction inherited from Minetest btw) |
| 18:38 |
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| 18:40 |
DivideByZero |
What does this mean? "sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Only apply uptime penalty on repeated restarts" There is going to be some penalty for restarting a server? |
| 18:40 |
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| 18:41 |
rubenwardy |
DivideByZero: there was a penalty for restarting a server |
| 18:41 |
hlqkj |
so... i speak here 1st time, i cause a debate and the collapse of the whole minetest server list? LOL |
| 18:41 |
rubenwardy |
now the penalty only applies if you restart enough times in one go - this aims to detect crash loops |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> The website is pointless |
| 18:41 |
hlqkj |
it's been unreachable for clients for 1h+ |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Because clients rank by player count |
| 18:42 |
DivideByZero |
What is "the penalty"? |
| 18:42 |
VanessaE |
huh, he's right. website loads fine, but my client can't reach it |
| 18:43 |
rubenwardy |
server list ranking |
| 18:43 |
* hlqkj |
is always fine. UwU |
| 18:43 |
DivideByZero |
So lower rank on the list? |
| 18:43 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 18:43 |
rubenwardy |
but only for a short time, if there's lots of restarts |
| 18:43 |
DivideByZero |
So if I am testing out a new mod and need to restart a few times should I change the send to server list to false to avoid being penalized? |
| 18:44 |
rubenwardy |
you should probably test out locally |
| 18:44 |
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| 18:44 |
rubenwardy |
you could do that though |
| 18:44 |
DivideByZero |
ok, thanks for the info. |
| 18:45 |
rubenwardy |
OK, the penalty applies if you have more than one restart in the last 2 hours |
| 18:45 |
hlqkj |
seems fair |
| 18:45 |
rubenwardy |
and then it's up to 8 point deducted, depending on how recently |
| 18:45 |
rubenwardy |
up to an hour |
| 18:45 |
rubenwardy |
so no penalty once you reach an hour |
| 18:45 |
DivideByZero |
Oh, I've restarted more times than that in 10 minutes before. |
| 18:46 |
TommyTreasure |
so, what if i have a mod on an automatic update, and it causes my server start script to loop? |
| 18:46 |
rubenwardy |
before, it applied to all server - so the only change here is that it only applies if it's restarted twice, rather than once |
| 18:46 |
rubenwardy |
Then the penalty is correctly applied |
| 18:46 |
guestabc |
numzero: multicraft *server*, there are multicraft server running non-multicraft_game that you can see appearing from time to time (including one that says minetest, probably using minetest game) and the giveaway that server is multicraft because the version number is 2.0.0 or similar instead of 5.x or 0.4.x |
| 18:47 |
hlqkj |
never auto-update a mod, imho |
| 18:47 |
DivideByZero |
minetest.net uses an invalid security certificate. |
| 18:47 |
DivideByZero |
|
| 18:47 |
DivideByZero |
The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed. |
| 18:47 |
rubenwardy |
www.minetest.net not minetest.net |
| 18:47 |
rubenwardy |
complain to c55 |
| 18:48 |
numzero |
guestabc: so there is no problem in my suggestion |
| 18:48 |
guestabc |
*inb4 uses wildcard cert* |
| 18:48 |
numzero |
btw I have been suggesting that a long time ago, in a menu redesign debate |
| 18:48 |
DivideByZero |
He should set up a forwarder to forward minetest.net to www.minetest.net, easy to do, |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
he did |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
it uses a self signed cert |
| 18:49 |
numzero |
I mean, filtering by game, or just showing a game icon in the list |
| 18:49 |
DivideByZero |
He could get a free Let's Encrypt certificiate instead. |
| 18:50 |
DivideByZero |
Or not use encryption at all, a forwarder doesnt seem it should really need encryption, and the site being forwarded to has it already. |
| 18:51 |
DivideByZero |
oh, the site being forwarded too does not have encryption. |
| 18:51 |
TommyTreasure |
so, what's going on with the server list. i have both 0.4 and 5.4 clients running, and nothing in the list |
| 18:51 |
DivideByZero |
so, why would the forwarder> |
| 18:51 |
numzero |
that would help players wanting to try something new (aka anything other that the most popular game in the list, be that multicraft, or minetest in the case of multicraft ban/derank) |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/32 given this issue, funny how your targeting multicraft servers now i really like Nerzhil comment "you will only make them being rogue inside the server list" pretty much gave forks a reason to go rouge on the serverlist |
| 18:51 |
TommyTreasure |
its been almost an hour |
| 18:51 |
rubenwardy |
http://minetest.net forwards as well |
| 18:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> given this comment "Allowing forks to use the server list (provided they behave) is very much in the spirit of FOSS. Disallowing forks in general would unnecessarily fragment the Minetest player base while bringing few advantages. Besides, the majority of forks (or variants) don't do anything we would consider undesirable." does that mean multicraft servers are not behaving then? |
| 18:54 |
DivideByZero |
web sites that didn't accept payments didn't use to need security certificates, but thanks to Google's power of control, they are trying to push everyone into getting one. |
| 18:54 |
VanessaE |
DivideByZero: https also keeps crap ISPs from inserting ads. |
| 18:54 |
numzero |
VanessaE: WTF? |
| 18:54 |
VanessaE |
and spying on the content in general |
| 18:54 |
VanessaE |
numzero: what> |
| 18:54 |
numzero |
where are there on the globe ISPs inserting ads? |
| 18:54 |
DivideByZero |
or perhaps makes it slightly more difficuly for the government to spy on what people are doing, but they can still do it anyways. |
| 18:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Intel ME and AMD PSP lookin like |
| 18:55 |
VanessaE |
numzero: I don't know if anyone's still doing it now, but in the past it has been seen on a few "local" ISPs |
| 18:55 |
numzero |
also to prevent spying one needs to make sure the cert owner is the website owner |
| 18:55 |
numzero |
but the browser will happily accept *any* cert signed by some “trusted authority” |
| 18:56 |
DivideByZero |
ISP still spy on your DNS requests, and still know where you are going, unless you use al alternate DNS like DOH or one of the other safer types. But even still when you use DOH now you put your DNS into some other companies hands that can now spy on you. |
| 18:56 |
Hawk777 |
“local” like Comcast? https://gizmodo.com/comcast-is-injecting-ads-right-into-web-pages-at-its-pu-1632327503 I thought they were pretty major (not that I live in the US, so I don’t really know much about them). |
| 18:57 |
Hawk777 |
Though that was years ago now. |
| 18:57 |
TommyTreasure |
ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Failure when receiving data from the peer) (response code 0) |
| 18:58 |
hlqkj |
yup. been like this for some time... |
| 18:58 |
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| 18:59 |
TommyTreasure |
if i posted that error as often as it appears in my logs, be considered as spamming? LOL |
| 19:00 |
DivideByZero |
My humble opinion: I don't like that the server list now only shows the top few servers and for the rest you have to click 'see more'. |
| 19:00 |
DivideByZero |
So basically if you aren't at the top of the list your server is now very easy to ignore or never even see. |
| 19:00 |
VanessaE |
DivideByZero: er, I can just scroll? |
| 19:01 |
numzero |
DivideByZero: what is the client you are using? |
| 19:01 |
DivideByZero |
Vanessa: only after you click 'see more' |
| 19:01 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 19:01 |
VanessaE |
not here. |
| 19:01 |
VanessaE |
https://imgur.com/DQnoXLK.png |
| 19:01 |
DivideByZero |
sorry 'show more' not 'see more' |
| 19:01 |
DivideByZero |
That's what I am seeing using Firefox. |
| 19:01 |
VanessaE |
firefox?? |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
um |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
minetest doesn't go through a browser. |
| 19:02 |
DivideByZero |
The server list does, and that's what I am referring to. |
| 19:02 |
hlqkj |
VE: meaning the client is updating the server list for you? |
| 19:02 |
DivideByZero |
http://www.minetest.net/servers/ |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
hlqkj: yeah, that ^ is just now. |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
DivideByZero: wrong url |
| 19:02 |
hlqkj |
uhm, still nothing here... |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
https://servers.minetest.net/ |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
is the correct url |
| 19:03 |
TommyTreasure |
@DivideByZero, it's a known fact that people don't 'scroll' past the first page. especially children |
| 19:03 |
numzero |
VanessaE: no |
| 19:03 |
DivideByZero |
Oh, that list looks better. But then I have the question, why is there two? |
| 19:03 |
numzero |
the URL is correct |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
numzero: no, it isn't. |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
the URL I just gave is the master list. |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
the other one is not. :) |
| 19:03 |
numzero |
I see both |
| 19:03 |
Krock |
one embeds the other |
| 19:03 |
DivideByZero |
Having two server lists seems to just add to the confusion. |
| 19:03 |
numzero |
Krock: exactly |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
exactly, Krock |
| 19:03 |
Krock |
good |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
one is just a wrapper around the other. |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
so we've settled this |
| 19:04 |
numzero |
but the wrapper is nicer and has a link to the full list |
| 19:04 |
VanessaE |
use the URL I gave. it's what clients see. |
| 19:04 |
numzero |
it should be labelled correspondingly though |
| 19:04 |
VanessaE |
they do NOT use the paged list. |
| 19:04 |
TommyTreasure |
Krock, please load a client and see for yourself. there is not server list displayed in the client. and the default entry for server's minetest.conf, points to "servers.minetest.net" |
| 19:04 |
numzero |
VanessaE: but on the website, the link leads to https://www.minetest.net/servers/ |
| 19:04 |
hlqkj |
try googling "minetest serverlist" and see which one is the first result |
| 19:05 |
DivideByZero |
TommyTreasure: That's probably why Facebook created the 'infinite scroll'. |
| 19:05 |
hlqkj |
sadly, the fancy one with the "Show more" link |
| 19:05 |
VanessaE |
numzero: I repeat. clients do not use the paged list. they use the one I linked to. |
| 19:05 |
* TommyTreasure |
ignores dumb excuses if they refer to faceboodk |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
TommyTreasure: I just did, it works now. |
| 19:11 |
numzero |
VanessaE: clients use https://servers.minetest.net/list |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
TommyTreasure: yes, that's the announcement URL |
| 19:11 |
numzero |
AFAIK |
| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
numzero: which is just a json-encoded version of what's on the main URL> |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
and that link from numzero just now is in fact the json that's used by the client |
| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
it is not paged. |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
my client is still not downloading it |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
not here |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
2021-03-15 12:06:00: ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Timeout was reached) (response code 0) |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
TommyTreasure: increase curl timeout |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
that's PDT btw |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
response code 0 means that there's no connection |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
otherwise you'd get a DNS error, or server status error, whatsoever |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
it has worked fine for 4 years, why all of a sudden do i need to change MY config |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
also consider nslookup to ensure that you can connect to it |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
ruben said about http not working while https yes... perhaps that? |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
Krock |
TommyTreasure: you don't. perhaps the server is slow at processing. give it some more time. |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
hlqkj: CURL should handle both the same way without a blink |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
neither of my client apps are showing anything on the join tab. 0.4.17.1 and 5.4.0 |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
yet my client doesn't load it since 1+h ago |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
that indicates a network problem. what does nslookup show, TommyTreasure ? |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
sorry, only my favorites, and the 'Joining...' |
| 19:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @Bastranoob dont you also have issues with the serverlist from time to time? |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
nslookup does fine |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
server list works fine here |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
(web and minetest client) |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
ping does too |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
Non-authoritative answer: |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
Name: kitsunemimi.pw |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
Addresses: 2a00:1768:6001:a::f |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
185.107.80.107 |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
Aliases: servers.minetest.net |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
and adding https:// to my minetest.conf did the trick |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
that looks good |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
so, as rubenwardy said, on server-side somewthing is wrong with http |
| 19:11 |
DivideByZero |
I'm seeing a message "Try reenabling public serverlist and check your internet connection." |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
same addresses from my side |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
again, why do i need to edit a default installation of minetest |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
why not |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
this is from the client |
| 19:11 |
hlqkj |
you don't need to -- just pointing out what the problem is |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
DivideByZero |
If my internet wasn't working I wouldn't be talking on IRC. :P |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
I don't even have the serverlist URL set in my .conf |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
DivideByZero: wait where's that? |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
might be why it's working noe |
| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
now* |
| 19:11 |
DivideByZero |
Krock: I see it in the place the server description would normally be, in the client, and using the latest dev client from github. |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
ok, let me see if i understand this correctly. 2 hours ago, all loaded fine. in the past hour, none of the servers show on the join, unless they're in my favorites. however, i can still join any in my favorites, so the connection is fine. |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
o.O |
| 19:11 |
DivideByZero |
After my favorites it shows "Loading..." |
| 19:11 |
TommyTreasure |
exactly |
| 19:12 |
DivideByZero |
and it's in the description for that. |
| 19:12 |
VanessaE |
TommyTreasure: so something broke in the master server list itself.. what's the big deal? |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:12 |
Krock |
from builtin/mainmenu/serverlistmgr.lua |
| 19:12 |
VanessaE |
it'll be fixed I'm sure |
| 19:12 |
hlqkj |
^ ^ ^ |
| 19:12 |
TommyTreasure |
the big deal is being asked to change my config for someone else's error, rather than just giving an answer to my question |
| 19:13 |
Krock |
DivideByZero: that's a default value which is usually replaced by the actual server list as soon it's loaded |
| 19:13 |
VanessaE |
well there's your answer. :) something broke |
| 19:13 |
TommyTreasure |
something has been broken in minetest, ever since i started using 04.14 :) |
| 19:13 |
hlqkj |
lol |
| 19:13 |
Krock |
building minetest master now |
| 19:13 |
DivideByZero |
Krock: Ok, but it's not being loaded anymore, so the message is there semi-permanently now, until someone fixes the issue. |
| 19:13 |
hlqkj |
could be the time to set the default setting to use https perhaps! |
| 19:14 |
Krock |
DivideByZero: you could see a timeout error in debug.txt when the 4 seconds (IIRC default) are exceeded |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:14 |
DivideByZero |
BRB, AFK for like 5 minutes. |
| 19:15 |
Krock |
minetest master works just fine |
| 19:15 |
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| 19:15 |
Krock |
must be a network issue or the server list blocked your IP |
| 19:16 |
TommyTreasure |
if it's blocked my ip, its using 2 different ways to identify me. i'm in the USA, and my server isn't |
| 19:16 |
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| 19:16 |
hlqkj |
(facepalm) |
| 19:17 |
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| 19:17 |
Krock |
AI is taking over! |
| 19:17 |
Krock |
duck and run |
| 19:17 |
TommyTreasure |
i wonder if i still have an old backup copy of my doom server. at least that ran |
| 19:18 |
TommyTreasure |
and i'd probably get the same amount of joins with doom, as i do with mt. ZERO |
| 19:19 |
hlqkj |
Krock: would you try this: curl http://servers.minetest.net (http, without -s) and see if it works for you? |
| 19:19 |
Krock |
hlqkj: works just fine |
| 19:19 |
hlqkj |
sorry ** /list missing |
| 19:19 |
VanessaE |
works for me |
| 19:20 |
VanessaE |
with and without /list |
| 19:20 |
hlqkj |
bc here, it doesn't work |
| 19:20 |
Hawk777 |
Without /list, works for me; with /list, takes a few seconds and then returns data. |
| 19:20 |
Krock |
http list does not |
| 19:20 |
VanessaE |
though it does delay for a second or so before it loadfs. |
| 19:20 |
VanessaE |
-f |
| 19:20 |
TommyTreasure |
so the entire US west coast is blocked? |
| 19:20 |
hlqkj |
whereas https does instantly |
| 19:20 |
hlqkj |
im in EU so guess we're blocked too... GDPR again? LOL |
| 19:20 |
Krock |
"curl http://servers.minetest.net/list" just stalls for a while and eventually returns something |
| 19:20 |
DivideByZero |
back |
| 19:21 |
TommyTreasure |
world record! Minetest blocks the world LOL |
| 19:21 |
Hawk777 |
HTTPS seems to be faster for me, about 1 second, while HTTP takes 3–6 seconds. |
| 19:21 |
hlqkj |
curl: (7) Failed to connect to servers.minetest.net port 80: Timed out |
| 19:21 |
TommyTreasure |
Hawk777, and others. in a default setup, minetest doesn't look for the servers via https |
| 19:21 |
Hawk777 |
I am aware of that. I was providing data. I was not making claims. |
| 19:21 |
hlqkj |
yeah, that was my concern too |
| 19:21 |
Hawk777 |
As you might see I also provided data for HTTP connections. |
| 19:23 |
DivideByZero |
Does anyone use 'xp_redo' on their servers or is there an alternate mod for xp? It seems to be broken. |
| 19:23 |
DivideByZero |
But I'd really like to have xp on my server, for added fun. |
| 19:23 |
TommyTreasure |
what would really be nice, would to get an informative response from the server list maintainer, about an estimated time for normal operation |
| 19:23 |
Krock |
windows xp |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ask sfan5 |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> however people have lives and he may be busy atm |
| 19:23 |
DivideByZero |
Krock: wrong xp, but that was likely a joke. |
| 19:23 |
TommyTreasure |
doesn't sfan5 monitor this channel? |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> >"however people have lives and he may be busy atm" |
| 19:24 |
Krock |
yes sure they monitor it 24/7 even in sleep |
| 19:24 |
hlqkj |
lol |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^also this lol |
| 19:24 |
DivideByZero |
joke: People have lives outside of Minetest during coronavirus? |
| 19:24 |
Krock |
so mentioning your issue more often results in way better results and the issue will be resolved in an instant |
| 19:24 |
TommyTreasure |
everybody seems to start telling others how to "get around the problem" rather than letting those in charge make an annoncement |
| 19:24 |
Krock |
(jk don't do it) |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> or pms |
| 19:25 |
TommyTreasure |
the instant has been lingering for over an hour :) |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> a typically wok day is 8hrs here, are they only a hour where your at? |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *a typical work |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> also since when did krock, a minetest core dev, not count as "in charge"? |
| 19:26 |
TommyTreasure |
you obviously have never been self employed |
| 19:26 |
DivideByZero |
Johnathan work days here died out over a year ago when everything was shutdown for the plandemic. |
| 19:26 |
TommyTreasure |
since when did Jonathon become my master |
| 19:27 |
Krock |
> plandemic |
| 19:27 |
TommyTreasure |
for sure! |
| 19:27 |
Krock |
suspiciously panned |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> > According to data from the International Labour Organization, only 12.4 percent of workers are self-employed on average in high-income economies while in low-income economies, this figure rises to 81.9 percent. interesting |
| 19:27 |
Krock |
*planed |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> planed for panning the virus? :p |
| 19:28 |
DivideByZero |
*planned, and yes. |
| 19:28 |
hlqkj |
congrats! ^^^ |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> lol |
| 19:28 |
hlqkj |
lol |
| 19:28 |
VanessaE |
yeah, that's gonna stop right now. |
| 19:28 |
|
homthack joined #minetest |
| 19:29 |
Krock |
SIGSEGV also stops quite fast |
| 19:29 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 19:29 |
DivideByZero |
I'm self employed, at least I was before coronavirus. |
| 19:30 |
Krock |
DivideByZero: until your employer fired you. tough personalities.... |
| 19:30 |
VanessaE |
Krock: mind merging https://github.com/minetest-mods/skinsdb/pull/59 so I can close the browser tab? :) |
| 19:30 |
TommyTreasure |
self-employed means you oinly have to work half a day, and you get to pick which half |
| 19:30 |
Krock |
VanessaE: uuh well |
| 19:30 |
Krock |
how about bell? are they no longer active? |
| 19:31 |
Krock |
a few commits in the last weeks |
| 19:31 |
VanessaE |
*shrug* |
| 19:31 |
DivideByZero |
Self employed can often mean you work all day without pay on some days. |
| 19:31 |
Krock |
oh well -.- maybe tomorrow |
| 19:32 |
Krock |
seeing all those constants makes me almost try |
| 19:32 |
Krock |
s/try/cry/ |
| 19:32 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luk3yx> Was their any attempt to reach out to MultiCraft to tell them to change their server promotion before applying https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3? |
| 19:32 |
VanessaE |
can't really be helped :) |
| 19:32 |
Krock |
sfx() https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1pAlrFDTu8 |
| 19:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> luk: not that i saw at all, nothing in issues or PR's |
| 19:34 |
|
Kray joined #minetest |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> seems sfan5 just did it |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> of the 3, only one i can find a issue for is https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/37 |
| 19:36 |
DivideByZero |
Servers that still support v 4 are also being penalized? "specificially, penalize servers that support both v4 and v5 Reasoning: We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version." |
| 19:38 |
TommyTreasure |
minetest is being penalized |
| 19:40 |
|
kamdard joined #minetest |
| 19:41 |
DivideByZero |
"# reduction to 40% for servers that support both legacy (v4) and v5 clients" |
| 19:41 |
rubenwardy |
doesn't effect servers that just support v4, only multicraft servers |
| 19:41 |
|
somtalgutoo joined #minetest |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> so basically it targeted a fork |
| 19:42 |
DivideByZero |
40% what? |
| 19:42 |
VanessaE |
Jonathon a fork that doesn't play fairly to begin with. |
| 19:43 |
DivideByZero |
So multicraft will be placed lower on the server list? |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> VanessaE: https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/32 |
| 19:43 |
VanessaE |
DivideByZero: in theory but they're still showing a few in the top 10 |
| 19:43 |
VanessaE |
off and on |
| 19:44 |
luk3yx |
So the answer to my question is no? |
| 19:44 |
VanessaE |
what was the question? |
| 19:44 |
TommyTreasure |
and i'll bet that an apple store will never put up a sign claiming the top 3 phones are androids. :) |
| 19:44 |
VanessaE |
Jonathon not relevant. |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
Jonathon multicraft servers only work with their own client or something like that. |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
whilst showing up in regular clients' lists |
| 19:45 |
luk3yx |
<luk3yx> Was their any attempt to reach out to MultiCraft to tell them to change their server promotion before applying https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3? |
| 19:45 |
DivideByZero |
Vanessa: Are you sure? I've played Multicraft with the Minetest client before. |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
maybe it's the other way around then |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
I don't rememebr |
| 19:46 |
DivideByZero |
I've never used the Multicraft client. |
| 19:46 |
DivideByZero |
While we are kind of on this subject, yesterday I came across a website claming to have "Minetest-final" |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 19:47 |
DivideByZero |
Wasn't really sure what that was all about, maybe some other fork? |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> no |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
get the hell away from that site. |
| 19:47 |
DivideByZero |
I prefer to use the official anyways. |
| 19:47 |
TommyTreasure |
i thought Multicraft was actually a hosting service for MineCraft servers -- https://multicraft.org/ |
| 19:47 |
DivideByZero |
It did look a bit sketchy. |
| 19:47 |
luk3yx |
And can't MultiCraft servers just start pretending to be 5.X on the MT serverlist? |
| 19:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> or if they split there listing couldnt the restriction be bypassed? |
| 19:48 |
DivideByZero |
Tommy on that page you just shared it says "The Complete Minecraft Server Hosting Solution and Control Panel". Minecraft vs Minetest ?? |
| 19:49 |
TommyTreasure |
wouldn't that indicate an infringement on either trademark and/or copyright of a MineCraft service? |
| 19:50 |
|
GreenXenith joined #minetest |
| 19:50 |
luk3yx |
Hi |
| 19:51 |
DivideByZero |
Vanessa: the url for that site is: https://minetest.org/ |
| 19:52 |
VanessaE |
GTFO |
| 19:52 |
VanessaE |
get out of here with that site |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> whats going on with the serverlist? First, minetest doesnt seem to be showing the serverlist anymore, second, it looks like on https://servers.minetest.net/ all multicraft servers are gone? |
| 19:52 |
TommyTreasure |
i totally agree!!!!!!!!!~ |
| 19:52 |
luk3yx |
No saying the link here |
| 19:52 |
Krock |
VanessaE: http://minetest.com/ |
| 19:53 |
DivideByZero |
If it's a scam site why doesn't it get shut down? It claims that it's built by one of the oldest senoir devs of Minetest, named OldCoder |
| 19:53 |
luk3yx |
MultiCraft servers are penalised now |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> use https, and see https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3e3c40a52ee423466f19f8eff37f859111 |
| 19:53 |
DivideByZero |
And the site refers to Minetest 5 as 'Old Minetest 5' lol. |
| 19:53 |
DivideByZero |
"There are two major versions of Minetest: Old Minetest 5 and Final Minetest." |
| 19:54 |
TommyTreasure |
DivideByZero, you're not making any friends with that information |
| 19:54 |
DivideByZero |
"Old Minetest 5 isn't backwards compatible with old clients or modsets. The fork is run by hostile and largely anonymous parties. It's not a group that most parents and schools would choose to be involved with." |
| 19:54 |
|
DivideByZero was kicked by VanessaE: DivideByZero |
| 19:55 |
TommyTreasure |
i would also suggest you use a TOR browser to visit that site |
| 19:55 |
|
DivideByZero joined #minetest |
| 19:55 |
DivideByZero |
Why did you kick me for simply sharing information Vanessa? |
| 19:56 |
DivideByZero |
I was alerting to the site, not promoting it. |
| 19:56 |
VanessaE |
Krock: at least minetest.com is just an old fan-promotional site and doesn't point people to fake sites :) |
| 19:56 |
luk3yx |
DivideByZero: You said the website |
| 19:56 |
luk3yx |
People here don't like that website being mentioned |
| 19:56 |
VanessaE |
DivideByZero: because I said to get out of here with it. |
| 19:56 |
DivideByZero |
Wow! |
| 19:56 |
DivideByZero |
So much for an open community to be safe to safe information. |
| 19:56 |
DivideByZero |
safe to share* |
| 19:57 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Thats the thing: Its not a safe site. |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
that guy has a long history of lying, trashing people. |
| 19:57 |
TommyTreasure |
you're pouring salt on an open wound |
| 19:57 |
grumble |
DivideByZero maybe if you read your private messages you wouldnt run into awkward situations like this |
| 19:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> >people responding to DMs or /msg |
| 19:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i know a few people like that |
| 19:57 |
DivideByZero |
I didn't notice I had a message from you until you just told me to check. |
| 19:58 |
luk3yx |
https://xkcd.com/1357/ |
| 19:58 |
VanessaE |
get a better IRC client that doesn't hide your /msgs :) |
| 19:58 |
DivideByZero |
Getting kicked for mentioning a site seems like this channel is turning into a dictatorship, or a communist party. You could have politely explained your issue with it. |
| 19:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> that would fall under technical competencies VE |
| 19:59 |
VanessaE |
DivideByZero: getting kicked for mentioning it, then being told NOT to mention it, then mentioning it again. |
| 19:59 |
VanessaE |
to be clear. |
| 19:59 |
TommyTreasure |
DBZ that's worse than my insults to the dev team. i suggest you drop the subject |
| 19:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> Minetest has always been a republic dictatorship |
| 19:59 |
calcul0n_ |
yeah, biggest problem with dictators is when they kick people from irc :p |
| 19:59 |
DivideByZero |
To be clear you didn't say don't mention that site, you said "get out of here with that site". |
| 20:00 |
VanessaE |
um |
| 20:00 |
DivideByZero |
And explaination of why you feel that way would have been helpful. |
| 20:00 |
TommyTreasure |
and you insist on talking about it |
| 20:00 |
DivideByZero |
and an* .. |
| 20:00 |
VanessaE |
doesn't it follow that if someone says get out, that talking further about it is kinda a bad idea? |
| 20:00 |
DivideByZero |
And as I also said, if it is such a sore spot, why don't you all get the site shut down? Then no one could mention it. |
| 20:01 |
VanessaE |
we have no control over it. |
| 20:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> don't you think we've already t r i e d that |
| 20:01 |
DivideByZero |
"Cease and desist order" |
| 20:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Well |
| 20:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> if it's a stupid question, we've already answered it years ago |
| 20:01 |
TommyTreasure |
dvz, with that theory, why don't you get freenode shutdown for allowing someone to kick you |
| 20:01 |
DivideByZero |
Is Minetest trademarked? |
| 20:01 |
VanessaE |
it's a scam website run by a hostile user who has no connection to Minetest anymore. |
| 20:01 |
DivideByZero |
If it's trademarked you have rights. |
| 20:01 |
VanessaE |
no it isn't. and in fact HE tried to trademark it, or threatened to. |
| 20:02 |
VanessaE |
so just stop talking about it |
| 20:02 |
DivideByZero |
Well Trademark it then. |
| 20:02 |
DivideByZero |
Then you have the crontrol back. |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> >open source |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> >money |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> KEK |
| 20:02 |
TommyTreasure |
i would never use he in caps in reference to him |
| 20:02 |
VanessaE |
TommyTreasure: emphasis only. |
| 20:02 |
DivideByZero |
Trademarking only costs around $400. I trademark my brand names. |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> these next words are from someone with experience in here |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> DivideByZero: OldCoder drama is best left in the past, no point in stirring a long overcooked pot. |
| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> shut your mouth before it bites you on the arse |
| 20:03 |
luk3yx |
Hi appguru |
| 20:03 |
luk3yx |
Any progress with modlib? |
| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Hi luk |
| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> heh |
| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> "progress" lmao |
| 20:04 |
DivideByZero |
https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks |
| 20:04 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> progress. |
| 20:04 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> that's quite narrow minded -nan |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> the world isn't the US |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> pretty sure he filed in Australia |
| 20:05 |
DivideByZero |
US trademarking helps to protect your marks in some other countries as well. |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> I never heard how that went |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Back to topic, why is the serverlist so sluggish? Could it be that someone is DDOSing it? |
| 20:05 |
DivideByZero |
China excluded for sure. |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i wonder why |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> ? |
| 20:05 |
TommyTreasure |
its been down for about 3 hours now |
| 20:05 |
|
z812 joined #minetest |
| 20:05 |
|
z812 joined #minetest |
| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> LOL, oldcoder should have filed trademark in China |
| 20:08 |
DivideByZero |
Tommy: Why keep complaining? They already said someone will fix it ..eventually. |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Down? I woulnd't say down. Slow, perhaps. |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> wouldnt* |
| 20:08 |
TommyTreasure |
are you also my master? |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> No, I am your father. |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> we aren't slaves or at ransom to random shits like you btw |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> +1 |
| 20:08 |
TommyTreasure |
that would make you at leas 100 years old LOL |
| 20:08 |
DivideByZero |
I get kicked for mentioning a server, maybe you should get a kick for excessive complaining? |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> how about read the room and or staff |
| 20:08 |
VanessaE |
you got kicked for mentioning a hostile person and his work after being told not to |
| 20:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> zero calm down |
| 20:08 |
TommyTreasure |
dvd, do it! |
| 20:08 |
TommyTreasure |
dvz, that is |
| 20:08 |
VanessaE |
so just stop before someone makes it more permanent. |
| 20:09 |
TommyTreasure |
you should research things before you make dumb comments |
| 20:09 |
jess |
whoa whats going on here |
| 20:09 |
rubenwardy |
trademarking costs $400, and taking down a .org site with a trademark costs $1500 |
| 20:09 |
rubenwardy |
it's not worth it |
| 20:09 |
DivideByZero |
Vanessa: You didn't actually tell me not to, but if that's you opinion I'm not going to argue with your position of authority and be repeatedly kicked, banned, or abused. I'll just accept that you are correct and leave it at that. |
| 20:09 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> @rubenwardy It's free if you know which path to take :] |
| 20:09 |
VanessaE |
good. |
| 20:09 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Abused? |
| 20:09 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Are you trolling? |
| 20:09 |
VanessaE |
because no one here will say I'm wrong :) |
| 20:09 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> I don't see how anyone is abusing you here |
| 20:10 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Stop abusing the english language |
| 20:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> start a gofundme |
| 20:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> you might get enough |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Also MT needs to be a LLC or similar legal entity in order to trademark anything AFAIK |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> hold my beer |
| 20:12 |
DivideByZero |
Ihr: that's not true. |
| 20:12 |
VanessaE |
appguru, well do remember what they say about the English language: other languages grow and evolve. English follows them down dark alleys, beats them senselesss, an rifles through their pockets for new vocabulary. :) |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Eggy1> gtg |
| 20:12 |
sofar |
trademarks can be registered to a person |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> also this |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Reasoning: We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version. |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Sounds reasonable |
| 20:12 |
VanessaE |
appguru which is to say, English is already abusive, so to abuse it in response isn't so horrible :P |
| 20:12 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> lol |
| 20:13 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> Reasoning: Hmm... now, #3 on the serverlist is a 0.4.x server... |
| 20:13 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault |
| 20:13 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> #3 on the serverlist doesn't matter at all |
| 20:13 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault |
| 20:13 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> 5.x clients put it at the end of the serverlist anyways |
| 20:13 |
VanessaE |
a 0.4.x server is fine on its own.. |
| 20:13 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> And let's be honest here, nobody uses the web serverlist |
| 20:14 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> And if we do, we just filter out 0.4.x |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
a server that claims to support both protocols by definition needs to limit the 5.0 side to features 0.4 supports |
| 20:14 |
Hawk777 |
> We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version. |
| 20:14 |
Hawk777 |
A server running actual 0.4 has exactly the same problem, does it not? It is restricting itself to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version? |
| 20:15 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> TBH I'd penalize 0.4 servers as well |
| 20:15 |
rubenwardy |
doesn't make a different |
| 20:18 |
rubenwardy |
it's functionally the same to clients, as clients push versions they don't support to the bottom |
| 20:18 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Yeah |
| 20:19 |
|
Telesight joined #minetest |
| 20:19 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Seeing as Multicraft appears to be hiding Minetest servers on Multicraft clients, it is probably fair to penalize their servers on Minetest clients |
| 20:20 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Not to mention other questionable affiliations of the MuC-using network... |
| 20:20 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> If a server can make a game that works with the features of 0.4, whats wrong with that? |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> if they can reach a wider audience, Id say more publicity, the better |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> People have to be incentivized to upgrade |
| 20:22 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> why? |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Because supporting 0.4.x is a PITA for all involved. |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> And upgrading isn't a remotely comparable PITA. |
| 20:24 |
Telesight |
Hello all ... Is something going on with the serverlist? |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> well yes, but stuff like FS51 make it easy |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> 0.4.x is EOL, people should stop using it |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> TBF the serverlist might even stop showing 0.4.x servers entirely IMO |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> hmm... Id point out that the default linux packages are still on 0.4 for many OSs |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^valid point |
| 20:24 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Use the snap. |
| 20:24 |
DivideByZero |
Debian still offers 0.4 |
| 20:36 |
|
loggingbot_ joined #minetest |
| 20:36 |
|
Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.4.0 (2021-02-23) | General, player and modder discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest |
| 20:36 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> So a "simple switch" is definitely not viable for MT |
| 20:36 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE, Modder of Sorts> ok... well, I see that even with the serverlist changes, Multicraft is still near the top, and I am satisfied with that. |
| 20:36 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> DivideByZero: Check. Your. Sources. "Since Ubuntu version 16.04, the spyware search facility is now disabled by default. It appears that the campaign of pressure launched by this article has been partly successful." |
| 20:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i assume multicraft2 still supports minimum protocol version |
| 20:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> so that would be a "switch" |
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Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.4.0 (2021-02-23) | General, player and modder discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest |
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Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.4.0 (2021-02-23) | General, player and modder discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest |
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Panquesito7 |
Is Texmex (tacotexmex) available here? |
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| 22:40 |
ar10ch |
Right, I know it can be done - it's like: U trundle along, u hit something, going forward no longer works but player is still pressing forward, so we'll go up. UNLESS player chooses sneak, because they've found a way around.... Yeah I wanna make a Star Wars style landspeeder that detects the ground in front of it and adjusts its altitude accordingly. But if something similar has already been done then, pls, point me to it, i |
| 22:40 |
ar10ch |
dont wanna reinvent the wheel! Sorry for the long description but not sorry - sick of hearing RTFM. Thanks. |
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| 22:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think there's any risk of reinventing the wheel if it's a landspeeder. |
| 22:45 |
VanessaE |
camo modpack has hovercraft but they don't work well (moving one moves others) |
