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IRC log for #minetest, 2021-03-15

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01:27 DivideByZero I found a typing error on https://wiki.minetest.net/MinetestEDU
01:27 DivideByZero "Automatically assing players to an individual construction area "
01:28 DivideByZero I don't think it's supposed to say 'assing players' on an educational focused page.
01:28 DivideByZero Someone might want to fix that up.
02:38 Calinou DivideByZero: fixed :)
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05:39 DivideByZero Calinou: *thumbs up*
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06:20 Extexo How do I use io.open to open a text file as a lua string?
06:22 Extexo Oh nvm I'm stupid lol
06:22 Extexo That's what io.open does
06:22 Extexo Nevermind
06:22 Extexo Nobody say this
06:23 Extexo saw*
06:23 Extexo Lol
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09:15 MinetestBot [git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: Devtest: Fix missing log level in minetest.log (#11068) 88f514a https://git.io/JqSDD (2021-03-15T09:13:15Z)
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12:02 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Only apply uptime penalty on repeated restarts 5d5f31d https://git.io/JqH2v (2021-03-15T11:35:02Z)
12:02 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Avoid unnecesary disk writes a9ecf55 https://git.io/JqH2f (2021-03-15T10:38:49Z)
12:02 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Adjust server ranking 9f144f3 https://git.io/JqH2k (2021-03-15T10:27:38Z)
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15:45 LoneWolfHT Sweet
15:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Why are we explicitly penalizing servers that support both v4 and v5?  Why not just penalize servers supporting v4 regardless of whether they're dual or v4-only?  That would seem to be more in line with the stated goal in the commit log.
15:52 LoneWolfHT Servers that support v4 only go to the bottom of the client serverlist and are greyed out
15:52 LoneWolfHT On the 5.x versions
15:52 sfan5 those two are effectively the same since clients only see servers that support v5 (or v4) anyway
15:52 rubenwardy exactly ^
15:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I guess I just figured it'd be simpler not to check proto max, if it's all the same otherwise.
15:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also, we don't necessarily want to look like we're singling out multicraft or anything... :-|
15:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i mean, thats effectively what its doing
15:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ironic that a 4x only server is #5 on the list rn lol
15:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5 -- Fixed key names so the key set menu now works. by adamnew123456
15:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That's fine, but I think the principle of the change stands on its own regardless of what effect it may or may not have on a specific project.
15:57 rubenwardy Worth noting that Multicraft also has its own server list that shows only v4+5 servers. So they use their own clients to boost their servers
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16:38 MTDiscord <appguru> Extexo: no, that's not what io.open does
16:38 MTDiscord <appguru> io.open applies a file handle, much like a stream, on which you can call seek, write or read depending on mode
16:39 MTDiscord <appguru> returns*
16:42 hlqkj don't know if it's appropriate to ask here here, sorry in case. i have a question: seems that copying text from read-only textareas doesn't work anymore on the 5.4 client, is that wanted or a regression?
16:43 rubenwardy Linux?
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16:44 hlqkj win-64
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17:16 hlqkj about the serverlist and 0.4 vs 5 thing, i'd like to drop a small point to ponder on. please forgive if i got something wrong in how the ranking works, can still be the case. but since the number of players is taken into account when scoring a server popularity, after the MT community decision to drop the old protocol it's undeniable that servers allowing both 0.4 and 5.x clients in have imho an unfair advantage: just consider the amount unofficial
17:16 hlqkj clients that are still stuck on 0.4 and that we don't have an official iOS client (or do we?)
17:17 hlqkj i know that guests are considered like 1/8 iirc? but 1/8*80 avg players is still having a weight compared to 1*10 avg players. also, the average client count score doesn't do distinction between guests and non-guests names, is it?
17:18 hlqkj like it is now, imho, it is penalizing admins who use the official mt and updated their servers to 5, and as time passes the spread gets worse: who has a high rank get more advertised hence having a chance to rank up, while those who lie at the bottom will likely stay there for time...
17:36 numzero what’s wrong with “unofficial” clients and servers? MT core devs stated pretty well they have nothing against these
17:36 numzero by using LGPL instead of AGPL
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17:38 hlqkj i didn't said there is something wrong with them! but if players count is taken into account, then also the availability of clients must be taken into account imho
17:38 VanessaE certain *cough* forks flood the server list with server entries that I guess work only with their branded client rather than just the generic Minetest client
17:38 hlqkj if an official mt is only allow 5.x clients, and the whole iOS community doesn't have a client to connect to it, the rank would not be so... impartial
17:38 hlqkj just my opinion though
17:39 hlqkj letting aside that, knowing how the ranking algo works, i could easily recompile my mt to "tell the serverlist what it is expecting to rank me up"
17:41 hlqkj small, insignificant example. we updated a 0.4 to 5, lost at least half a dozen of players that were using an unofficial app on iPads. half a dozen are our average player count
17:41 hlqkj is that the server lost gameplay quality because we decided it was finally time to update?
17:42 numzero what does ranking has to do with gameplay quality?
17:42 numzero popularity is measureable. gameplay quality isn’t
17:42 numzero and is different for different people
17:42 VanessaE gameplay quality is dictated not just by the game content, but by its community
17:43 VanessaE if you lose valuable, good players, your game quality will decline even if the content remains unchanged.
17:43 VanessaE or to put it another way:
17:43 VanessaE if you lose good players, your ratio of good to crap players drops.  you have fewer good players to offset the crap players that are also there.
17:44 VanessaE thus, the quality of everyones' interactions declines.
17:44 VanessaE 'course, that's assuming all those lost in a protocol transition are good players.
17:44 hlqkj that's good to me, wasn't my point actually...
17:44 VanessaE (which v0.4 vs v5.x is)
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17:45 VanessaE that said, if they're on iOS, they're probably all hoity-toity, I'm-better-than-you players anyway :)
17:46 VanessaE you know, typical Apple clientele :)
17:46 numzero yet they were *all* on iOS
17:46 numzero so were *good* players for each other, weren’t they?
17:46 hlqkj not all of them, some are great ones but have parents that are like you say :)
17:47 VanessaE but there's another aspect to the whole loss thing:  if player count drops too much, a server may become not worth maintaining.
17:47 VanessaE numzero: I am joking you know :)
17:47 sofar I'm not a fan of solving symptoms while leaving the underlying problem alone -> ios need a v5 client
17:48 numzero what I’m trying to say is that the meaning of “good” and “crap” players is not strictly defined
17:48 hlqkj players comes and goes, that is normal. the point i was trying to say (forgive if im not so clear, english isn't my main language) is that sorting a list is by definition based on something that must be measurable
17:49 hlqkj the way you get new players, is by having them noticing a server, which should be easier for servers that are up in the list
17:49 hlqkj on this, i think everyone could agree, isn't it?
17:49 sofar the serverlist isn't "one" list per se - it's a list with many different lists embedded inherently
17:49 VanessaE hlqkj: well the original idea behind the ranking algo was to promote servers with good quality interaction based on things that themselves tend to promote that, like requiring users to create real accounts with passwords, versus a million "guest" accounts
17:49 hlqkj that i suppose is why "parameters" like, ping, up-time, average players, non-guest clients count have been taken into account
17:50 hlqkj that is what i meant with "game quality"
17:50 VanessaE or if a server reboots periodically, it's reasonable to assume they're doing so to make regular backupsl. things like that.
17:50 hlqkj exactly
17:50 sofar the other side of the issue is that the serverlist is being used differently by some clients
17:52 VanessaE sofar: I presume you mean something other than Mineclone flooding the list?
17:53 hlqkj this easily falls into a "political"-like discussion, lol, which i didn't wanted to
17:53 sofar multicraft clients don't see non-multicraft servers
17:54 hlqkj if that's the case, why minetest sees multicraft servers?
17:54 sofar you can play on them with v5
17:55 hlqkj that is, again, not the point i wanted to mark
17:55 VanessaE er yeah, I meant multicraft, not mineclone.
17:55 hlqkj i can play whatever i want... but a new player who opens minetest.. will or will not stop in the first, say 3 or 4 pages? on average i mean
17:56 hlqkj i don't actually care after all, i don't own a server myself and the ones i'm into, would be well far down in the list anyways
17:56 hlqkj but it just didn't seemed right to my eyes, that's it
17:57 VanessaE I don't imagine a new player will bother with more than the first couple of pages, assuming they don't use the search feature.
17:57 hlqkj last example, hope this time i'll explain well.
17:57 hlqkj i decide to develop an android app, and my dev community decide to target only android 10 and up
17:58 hlqkj but, my own app store allows apps from android 4 and up...
17:58 hlqkj where do you think my app will be?
17:58 VanessaE I couldn't say
17:58 hlqkj *considering the current version distribution across the existing user base
17:58 VanessaE which one is more likely to be found by everyone else?
17:59 numzero considering how fast Android versions obsolete... targeting latest (at the time) version sounds reasonable
17:59 hlqkj if you just rank it by amount of users, the larger the user base, the upper it will be
18:00 Krock is 6.0 obsolete already?
18:00 Krock thinking of it.. it's been a long time since I received system updates
18:00 hlqkj it's been time we got 5.x out, yet (for mt community decision) a fairly large part of the mt user base is under unofficial clients
18:00 hlqkj if those clients doesn't support 5.x servers
18:01 hlqkj and if in the same server list someone accepts both 0.4 and 5
18:01 hlqkj flood will occur for sure
18:01 numzero probably
18:01 numzero yet...
18:02 Krock F towards those hybrid servers. many optimizations are missing there
18:02 numzero assume that client updates to 5.x
18:02 hlqkj then there'll be no more unfairness
18:02 Krock 0.4.x is somewhat outdated by now, and except on iOS there's at least one binary for every common platform
18:03 numzero um, wait
18:03 numzero multicraft doesn’t allow connection to non-multicraft servers, does it?
18:03 numzero that’s not due to protocol difference
18:03 numzero more like moderation
18:03 VanessaE curation, if anything
18:04 VanessaE and even that word is a poor descriptor..
18:04 Krock weird. I saw those a while back on the server list
18:04 Krock but now they're apparently gone
18:04 VanessaE there are 16 of them at the moment
18:04 hlqkj that idk and render things actually worst to me
18:04 VanessaE they still show in the master list on http://servers.minetest.net/
18:04 VanessaE no excuse me, not 16
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18:05 VanessaE 11 of them
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18:06 hlqkj idk, just explain that in the last 2 years of me playing mt every day, by some chance the first page have  always been mc ones
18:06 hlqkj explain how*
18:06 MTDiscord <Jordach> I wonder if there’s fake users judging by what the App Store allows these days when it comes to bullshit
18:07 MTDiscord <Jordach> See shovel ware
18:07 VanessaE some of my servers used to grace the top 10, even had one or another at #1 a number of times.  I have no idea why they've fallen-off.
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18:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
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18:07 hlqkj VanessaE: i've been told i missed a lot, by joining minetest too late :)
18:08 numzero hlqkj: probably because Multicraft attracts A LOT of players?
18:08 numzero probably because it has such a shiny wrapping MT lacks?
18:08 hlqkj but why so? (not on debating now, pure curiosity)
18:08 hlqkj i never actually tried it
18:08 MTDiscord <Jordach> It’s probably App Store shovelware
18:09 numzero rather, Google Play
18:09 numzero I can’t know the actual reasons but I see visible things:
18:09 hlqkj would be interesting to know how much of their user base is using the official mt client app
18:09 numzero MC is attractive for those who prefers to click “install” and then “play”
18:10 hlqkj bc we can connect to them, but the opposite isn't true
18:10 hlqkj and we allow our users to see their servers, while they (i take this from here, i didn't know) don't
18:10 MTDiscord <Jordach> All I’m hearing is remove multicraft from the list
18:10 hlqkj not from me
18:11 hlqkj more like, take more params into account.. like protocol version
18:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> If they can’t use MT servers why even bother letting them use the MT list
18:11 hlqkj because, mt users can use their servers
18:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> Why should we accommodate Multi users when they’re unable to use MT servers
18:12 VanessaE I favor ejecting multicraft servers from the list.
18:12 VanessaE or deranking the hell out of them
18:12 VanessaE put them at the bottom.
18:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> It’s even a hostile fork because they simply won’t let users out of the bucket their in
18:12 hlqkj i agree
18:13 hlqkj not that, you're free to keep your users. unfair to steal other's
18:13 MTDiscord <Jordach> They could be playing far better games like CTF or what not
18:13 numzero would they?
18:13 hlqkj agree with what VE said*
18:15 MTDiscord <Jordach> Yes and the problem is that MT servers are effectively non connectable on the multicraft client despite using the same server list
18:16 hlqkj it's not a problem of mt in my vision
18:16 MTDiscord <Jordach> It is actually
18:16 hlqkj when mt dropped the old protocol, someone managed to patch their code to accept both 0.4 and 5
18:17 MTDiscord <Jordach> Because it’s technically telling users they can only play what the fork developer chooses
18:17 hlqkj don't you see some (legit) tactic in that?
18:17 numzero that’s not a problem but a political decision
18:17 numzero I restate: Multicraft’s maintainer *will not* let his users connect to the servers he can’t moderate
18:17 numzero as he tells, to keep the age rating low
18:18 MTDiscord <Jordach> What is content not rated by ESRB and similar
18:18 MTDiscord <Jordach> Or even online interactions as most released titles have that
18:18 numzero https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10188#issuecomment-751342218
18:18 numzero I might have read that a bit wrongly
18:18 MTDiscord <Jordach> Parents using parental controls properly
18:19 MTDiscord <Jordach> LMAO
18:19 MTDiscord <Jordach> That has never fucking happened in the history of tablets
18:19 hlqkj lol
18:19 sofar it's fine that he limits the client
18:19 sofar he should just run his own master server instead
18:19 numzero so you see, he *does* want to moderate the servers
18:20 numzero sofar: exactly
18:20 sofar the tools are available for him to do so
18:20 hlqkj the whole thing isn't about what mc decides to do, though
18:20 sofar they're free and OSS
18:20 rubenwardy <sofar> he should just run his own master server instead
18:20 rubenwardy he does
18:20 rubenwardy http://servers.multicraft.world/
18:20 MTDiscord <Jordach> I lack the required English to articulate what so far said
18:20 numzero he also runs a metric ton of miniservers not listed anywhere
18:20 sofar do his servers announce on multiple lists?
18:21 rubenwardy Either that, or that serverlist filters from the main list
18:21 sofar ask him to host his own serverlist then
18:21 numzero but basically, server *software* doesn’t matter much IMO
18:21 numzero it’s the game that matters, doesn’t it?
18:22 numzero are these 90+players servers all running Multicraft *game*?
18:22 sofar unfair market competition is unfair market competition
18:22 hlqkj then why this <numzero> what does ranking has to do with gameplay quality?
18:22 MTDiscord <Jordach> Games don’t matter when it’s dogshit ads placed everywhere
18:22 hlqkj that was what i tried to say at first
18:22 sofar he's using his market power to draw more clients
18:22 rubenwardy numzero: no
18:22 rubenwardy there's on with a different game
18:22 hlqkj sofar: precisely
18:22 sofar it's anticompetitive in nature and effect
18:23 hlqkj now the (political?) question is, are all the mt community ok with this?
18:23 MTDiscord <Jordach> Most app devs who have ads are snakes and will only change from extreme social pressure
18:24 MTDiscord <Jordach> They’re not in it to contribute back
18:24 rubenwardy monte has contributed back, however
18:24 rubenwardy that's not a very fair statement. Ad homiem
18:24 MTDiscord <Jordach> This community was built on that back in 2011
18:24 hlqkj i started this debate with the word "fair". i download mt, and see mc atop the list. good servers, totally ok to me. but if i download mc, will i see ctf, or one of VE server, or whatever?
18:25 rubenwardy no
18:25 hlqkj ok, so.. just find a way to balance things.. a bit more?
18:25 rubenwardy That's precisely the problem - their apps unfairly boost their servers
18:26 VanessaE then why are we arguing about this?  just de-rank or ban multicraft servers and be done with it
18:26 rubenwardy former is done. Later may be a bit too far imo
18:26 hlqkj ^ ^ ^
18:26 VanessaE no it isn't, rubenwardy
18:26 MTDiscord <Jordach> What annoys me most is server owners ignore desktop users in favour of the plentiful mobile users
18:26 MTDiscord <Jordach> Which result in MT staying shit
18:27 hlqkj not again
18:27 VanessaE check the master list, three of the top 10 are multicraft.  4 in the top 20.
18:27 hlqkj a desktop user will be attracted to a MC server the same way a mobile will
18:27 rubenwardy Well, I can't check the server list currently  :D
18:27 VanessaE well 3 only, now.  it varies.
18:28 VanessaE rubenwardy: no browser?
18:28 hlqkj if things keeps going on this way, the tendency will be mt loosing all of its user base?
18:28 rubenwardy oh right, it's just HTTP that's broken. HTTPS works
18:28 hlqkj here it works, but friends telling me it's off for them
18:28 MTDiscord <Jordach> I’ve been working on a game with now reaching 10sloc
18:28 VanessaE http works for me just fine
18:28 MTDiscord <Jordach> 10k SLOC
18:29 numzero rubenwardy: all 4 servers with 40+ players right now are Multicraft
18:29 rubenwardy a whole 10 lines? Holy crap
18:29 numzero Multicraft *game*
18:29 numzero among 7 servers with 20+ players, 6 are Multicraft
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18:30 numzero so I can offer what I wanted to offer
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18:31 numzero grouping/filtering servers by game
18:32 numzero in the GUI
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18:34 numzero Jordach: and MT core devs ignore mobile users in favour of desktop users
18:35 MTDiscord <Jordach> Yeet
18:35 guestabc I'm just here to write that there are few servers who use multicraft as a way for getting players on both old and new MT clients to play in one same server, but are not listed in multicraft serverlist because they're not targetting multicraft users
18:36 guestabc you can compare multicraft serverlist and minetest serverlist side by side, not all multicraft servers are on multicraft list
18:36 numzero guestabc: do you mean Multicraft *game* or Multicraft *server*?
18:36 VanessaE we know, guestabc.
18:37 numzero (the distinction inherited from Minetest btw)
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18:40 DivideByZero What does this mean? "sfan5 -> minetest/serverlist: Only apply uptime penalty on repeated restarts"  There is going to be some penalty for restarting a server?
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18:41 rubenwardy DivideByZero: there was a penalty for restarting a server
18:41 hlqkj so... i speak here 1st time, i cause a debate and the collapse of the whole minetest server list? LOL
18:41 rubenwardy now the penalty only applies if you restart enough times in one go - this aims to detect crash loops
18:41 MTDiscord <Jordach> The website is pointless
18:41 hlqkj it's been unreachable for clients for 1h+
18:41 MTDiscord <Jordach> Because clients rank by player count
18:42 DivideByZero What is "the penalty"?
18:42 VanessaE huh, he's right.  website loads fine, but my client can't reach it
18:43 rubenwardy server list ranking
18:43 * hlqkj is always fine. UwU
18:43 DivideByZero So lower rank on the list?
18:43 rubenwardy yeah
18:43 rubenwardy but only for a short time, if there's lots of restarts
18:43 DivideByZero So if I am testing out a new mod and need to restart a few times should I change the send to server list to false to avoid being penalized?
18:44 rubenwardy you should probably test out locally
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18:44 rubenwardy you could do that though
18:44 DivideByZero ok, thanks for the info.
18:45 rubenwardy OK, the penalty applies if you have more than one restart in the last 2 hours
18:45 hlqkj seems fair
18:45 rubenwardy and then it's up to 8 point deducted, depending on how recently
18:45 rubenwardy up to an hour
18:45 rubenwardy so no penalty once you reach an hour
18:45 DivideByZero Oh, I've restarted more times than that in 10 minutes before.
18:46 TommyTreasure so, what if i have a mod on an automatic update, and it causes my server start script to loop?
18:46 rubenwardy before, it applied to all server - so the only change here is that it only applies if it's restarted twice, rather than once
18:46 rubenwardy Then the penalty is correctly applied
18:46 guestabc numzero: multicraft *server*, there are multicraft server running non-multicraft_game that you can see appearing from time to time (including one that says minetest, probably using minetest game) and the giveaway that server is multicraft because the version number is 2.0.0 or similar instead of 5.x or 0.4.x
18:47 hlqkj never auto-update a mod, imho
18:47 DivideByZero minetest.net uses an invalid security certificate.
18:47 DivideByZero
18:47 DivideByZero The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed.
18:47 rubenwardy www.minetest.net not minetest.net
18:47 rubenwardy complain to c55
18:48 numzero guestabc: so there is no problem in my suggestion
18:48 guestabc *inb4 uses wildcard cert*
18:48 numzero btw I have been suggesting that a long time ago, in a menu redesign debate
18:48 DivideByZero He should set up a forwarder to forward minetest.net to www.minetest.net, easy to do,
18:48 rubenwardy he did
18:48 rubenwardy it uses a self signed cert
18:49 numzero I mean, filtering by game, or just showing a game icon in the list
18:49 DivideByZero He could get a free Let's Encrypt certificiate instead.
18:50 DivideByZero Or not use encryption at all, a forwarder doesnt seem it should really need encryption, and the site being forwarded to has it already.
18:51 DivideByZero oh, the site being forwarded too does not have encryption.
18:51 TommyTreasure so, what's going on with the server list. i have both 0.4 and 5.4 clients running, and nothing in the list
18:51 DivideByZero so, why would the forwarder>
18:51 numzero that would help players wanting to try something new (aka anything other that the most popular game in the list, be that multicraft, or minetest in the case of multicraft ban/derank)
18:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/32 given this issue, funny how your targeting multicraft servers now i really like Nerzhil comment "you will only make them being rogue inside the server list" pretty much gave forks a reason to go rouge on the serverlist
18:51 TommyTreasure its been almost an hour
18:51 rubenwardy http://minetest.net forwards as well
18:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> given this comment "Allowing forks to use the server list (provided they behave) is very much in the spirit of FOSS. Disallowing forks in general would unnecessarily fragment the Minetest player base while bringing few advantages. Besides, the majority of forks (or variants) don't do anything we would consider undesirable." does that mean multicraft servers are not behaving then?
18:54 DivideByZero web sites that didn't accept payments didn't use to need security certificates, but thanks to Google's power of control, they are trying to push everyone into getting one.
18:54 VanessaE DivideByZero: https also keeps crap ISPs from inserting ads.
18:54 numzero VanessaE: WTF?
18:54 VanessaE and spying on the content in general
18:54 VanessaE numzero: what>
18:54 numzero where are there on the globe ISPs inserting ads?
18:54 DivideByZero or perhaps makes it slightly more difficuly for the government to spy on what people are doing, but they can still do it anyways.
18:55 MTDiscord <Jordach> Intel ME and AMD PSP lookin like
18:55 VanessaE numzero: I don't know if anyone's still doing it now, but in the past it has been seen on a few "local" ISPs
18:55 numzero also to prevent spying one needs to make sure the cert owner is the website owner
18:55 numzero but the browser will happily accept *any* cert signed by some “trusted authority”
18:56 DivideByZero ISP still spy on your DNS requests, and still know where you are going, unless you use al alternate DNS like DOH or one of the other safer types. But even still when you use DOH now you put your DNS into some other companies hands that can now spy on you.
18:56 Hawk777 “local” like Comcast? https://gizmodo.com/comcast-is-injecting-ads-right-into-web-pages-at-its-pu-1632327503 I thought they were pretty major (not that I live in the US, so I don’t really know much about them).
18:57 Hawk777 Though that was years ago now.
18:57 TommyTreasure ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Failure when receiving data from the peer) (response code 0)
18:58 hlqkj yup. been like this for some time...
18:58 FeXoR joined #minetest
18:59 TommyTreasure if i posted that error as often as it appears in my logs, be considered as spamming?  LOL
19:00 DivideByZero My humble opinion: I don't like that the server list now only shows the top few servers and for the rest you have to click 'see more'.
19:00 DivideByZero So basically if you aren't at the top of the list your server is now very easy to ignore or never even see.
19:00 VanessaE DivideByZero: er, I can just scroll?
19:01 numzero DivideByZero: what is the client you are using?
19:01 DivideByZero Vanessa: only after you click 'see more'
19:01 VanessaE no
19:01 VanessaE not here.
19:01 VanessaE https://imgur.com/DQnoXLK.png
19:01 DivideByZero sorry 'show more' not 'see more'
19:01 DivideByZero That's what I am seeing using Firefox.
19:01 VanessaE firefox??
19:02 VanessaE um
19:02 VanessaE minetest doesn't go through a browser.
19:02 DivideByZero The server list does, and that's what I am referring to.
19:02 hlqkj VE: meaning the client is updating the server list for you?
19:02 DivideByZero http://www.minetest.net/servers/
19:02 VanessaE hlqkj: yeah, that ^ is just now.
19:02 VanessaE DivideByZero: wrong url
19:02 hlqkj uhm, still nothing here...
19:02 VanessaE https://servers.minetest.net/
19:02 VanessaE is the correct url
19:03 TommyTreasure @DivideByZero, it's a known fact that people don't 'scroll' past the first page.  especially children
19:03 numzero VanessaE: no
19:03 DivideByZero Oh, that list looks better. But then I have the question, why is there two?
19:03 numzero the URL is correct
19:03 VanessaE numzero: no, it isn't.
19:03 VanessaE the URL I just gave is the master list.
19:03 VanessaE the other one is not. :)
19:03 numzero I see both
19:03 Krock one embeds the other
19:03 DivideByZero Having two server lists seems to just add to the confusion.
19:03 numzero Krock: exactly
19:03 VanessaE exactly, Krock
19:03 Krock good
19:03 VanessaE one is just a wrapper around the other.
19:04 Krock so we've settled this
19:04 numzero but the wrapper is nicer and has a link to the full list
19:04 VanessaE use the URL I gave.  it's what clients see.
19:04 numzero it should be labelled correspondingly though
19:04 VanessaE they do NOT use the paged list.
19:04 TommyTreasure Krock, please load a client and see for yourself.  there is not server list displayed in the client. and the default entry for server's minetest.conf, points to "servers.minetest.net"
19:04 numzero VanessaE: but on the website, the link leads to https://www.minetest.net/servers/
19:04 hlqkj try googling "minetest serverlist" and see which one is the first result
19:05 DivideByZero TommyTreasure: That's probably why Facebook created the 'infinite scroll'.
19:05 hlqkj sadly, the fancy one with the "Show more" link
19:05 VanessaE numzero: I repeat.  clients do not use the paged list.  they use the one I linked to.
19:05 * TommyTreasure ignores dumb excuses if they refer to faceboodk
19:11 awell joined #minetest
19:11 VanessaE TommyTreasure: I just did, it works now.
19:11 numzero VanessaE: clients use https://servers.minetest.net/list
19:11 Krock TommyTreasure: yes, that's the announcement URL
19:11 numzero AFAIK
19:11 VanessaE numzero: which is just a json-encoded version of what's on the main URL>
19:11 Krock and that link from numzero just now is in fact the json that's used by the client
19:11 VanessaE it is not paged.
19:11 hlqkj my client is still not downloading it
19:11 TommyTreasure not here
19:11 TommyTreasure 2021-03-15 12:06:00: ERROR[CurlFetch]: servers.minetest.net/announce not found (Timeout was reached) (response code 0)
19:11 Krock TommyTreasure: increase curl timeout
19:11 TommyTreasure that's PDT btw
19:11 Krock response code 0 means that there's no connection
19:11 Krock otherwise you'd get a DNS error, or server status error, whatsoever
19:11 TommyTreasure it has worked fine for 4 years, why all of a sudden do i need to change MY config
19:11 Krock also consider nslookup to ensure that you can connect to it
19:11 hlqkj ruben said about http not working while https yes... perhaps that?
19:11 I_am_Grid joined #minetest
19:11 Krock TommyTreasure: you don't. perhaps the server is slow at processing. give it some more time.
19:11 Krock hlqkj: CURL should handle both the same way without a blink
19:11 TommyTreasure neither of my client apps are showing anything on the join tab.  0.4.17.1 and 5.4.0
19:11 hlqkj yet my client doesn't load it since 1+h ago
19:11 Krock that indicates a network problem. what does nslookup show, TommyTreasure ?
19:11 TommyTreasure sorry, only my favorites, and the 'Joining...'
19:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> @Bastranoob dont you also have issues with the serverlist from time to time?
19:11 hlqkj nslookup does fine
19:11 Krock server list works fine here
19:11 Krock (web and minetest client)
19:11 hlqkj ping does too
19:11 TommyTreasure Non-authoritative answer:
19:11 TommyTreasure Name:    kitsunemimi.pw
19:11 TommyTreasure Addresses:  2a00:1768:6001:a::f
19:11 TommyTreasure 185.107.80.107
19:11 TommyTreasure Aliases:  servers.minetest.net
19:11 hlqkj and adding https:// to my minetest.conf did the trick
19:11 Krock that looks good
19:11 hlqkj so, as rubenwardy said, on server-side somewthing is wrong with http
19:11 DivideByZero I'm seeing a message "Try reenabling public serverlist and check your internet connection."
19:11 Krock same addresses from my side
19:11 TommyTreasure again, why do i need to edit a default installation of minetest
19:11 Krock why not
19:11 TommyTreasure this is from the client
19:11 hlqkj you don't need to -- just pointing out what the problem is
19:11 BakerPri- joined #minetest
19:11 DivideByZero If my internet wasn't working I wouldn't be talking on IRC. :P
19:11 bulld0zer joined #minetest
19:11 VanessaE I don't even have the serverlist URL set in my .conf
19:11 Krock DivideByZero: wait where's that?
19:11 Edgy17 joined #minetest
19:11 VanessaE might be why it's working noe
19:11 VanessaE now*
19:11 DivideByZero Krock: I see it in the place the server description would normally be, in the client, and using the latest dev client from github.
19:11 TommyTreasure ok, let me see if i understand this correctly.  2 hours ago, all loaded fine.  in the past hour, none of the servers show on the join, unless they're in my favorites.  however, i can still join any in my favorites, so the connection is fine.
19:11 Krock o.O
19:11 DivideByZero After my favorites it shows "Loading..."
19:11 TommyTreasure exactly
19:12 DivideByZero and it's in the description for that.
19:12 VanessaE TommyTreasure: so something broke in the master server list itself..  what's the big deal?
19:12 I_am_Grid joined #minetest
19:12 Krock from builtin/mainmenu/serverlistmgr.lua
19:12 VanessaE it'll be fixed I'm sure
19:12 hlqkj ^ ^ ^
19:12 TommyTreasure the big deal is being asked to change my config for someone else's error, rather than just giving an answer to my question
19:13 Krock DivideByZero: that's a default value which is usually replaced by the actual server list as soon it's loaded
19:13 VanessaE well there's your answer. :)  something broke
19:13 TommyTreasure something has been broken in minetest, ever since i started using 04.14  :)
19:13 hlqkj lol
19:13 Krock building minetest master now
19:13 DivideByZero Krock: Ok, but it's not being loaded anymore, so the message is there semi-permanently now, until someone fixes the issue.
19:13 hlqkj could be the time to set the default setting to use https perhaps!
19:14 Krock DivideByZero: you could see a timeout error in debug.txt when the 4 seconds (IIRC default) are exceeded
19:14 cheapie joined #minetest
19:14 DivideByZero BRB, AFK for like 5 minutes.
19:15 Krock minetest master works just fine
19:15 AndDT joined #minetest
19:15 Krock must be a network issue or the server list blocked your IP
19:16 TommyTreasure if it's blocked my ip, its using 2 different ways to identify me.  i'm in the USA, and my server isn't
19:16 SX joined #minetest
19:16 hlqkj (facepalm)
19:17 erstazi joined #minetest
19:17 Krock AI is taking over!
19:17 Krock duck and run
19:17 TommyTreasure i wonder if i still have an old backup copy of my doom server.  at least that ran
19:18 TommyTreasure and i'd probably get the same amount of joins with doom, as i do with mt.  ZERO
19:19 hlqkj Krock: would you try this:  curl http://servers.minetest.net  (http, without -s) and see if it works for you?
19:19 Krock hlqkj: works just fine
19:19 hlqkj sorry  ** /list missing
19:19 VanessaE works for me
19:20 VanessaE with and without /list
19:20 hlqkj bc here, it doesn't work
19:20 Hawk777 Without /list, works for me; with /list, takes a few seconds and then returns data.
19:20 Krock http list does not
19:20 VanessaE though it does delay for a second or so before it loadfs.
19:20 VanessaE -f
19:20 TommyTreasure so the entire US west coast is blocked?
19:20 hlqkj whereas https does instantly
19:20 hlqkj im in EU so guess we're blocked too... GDPR again? LOL
19:20 Krock "curl http://servers.minetest.net/list"  just stalls for a while and eventually returns something
19:20 DivideByZero back
19:21 TommyTreasure world record!  Minetest blocks the world  LOL
19:21 Hawk777 HTTPS seems to be faster for me, about 1 second, while HTTP takes 3–6 seconds.
19:21 hlqkj curl: (7) Failed to connect to servers.minetest.net port 80: Timed out
19:21 TommyTreasure Hawk777, and others.  in a default setup, minetest doesn't look for the servers via https
19:21 Hawk777 I am aware of that. I was providing data. I was not making claims.
19:21 hlqkj yeah, that was my concern too
19:21 Hawk777 As you might see I also provided data for HTTP connections.
19:23 DivideByZero Does anyone use 'xp_redo' on their servers or is there an alternate mod for xp?  It seems to be broken.
19:23 DivideByZero But I'd really like to have xp on my server, for added fun.
19:23 TommyTreasure what would really be nice, would to get an informative response from the server list maintainer, about an estimated time for normal operation
19:23 Krock windows xp
19:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ask sfan5
19:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> however people have lives and he may be busy atm
19:23 DivideByZero Krock: wrong xp, but that was likely a joke.
19:23 TommyTreasure doesn't sfan5 monitor this channel?
19:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >"however people have lives and he may be busy atm"
19:24 Krock yes sure they monitor it 24/7 even in sleep
19:24 hlqkj lol
19:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^also this lol
19:24 DivideByZero joke: People have lives outside of Minetest during coronavirus?
19:24 Krock so mentioning your issue more often results in way better results and the issue will be resolved in an instant
19:24 TommyTreasure everybody seems to start telling others how to "get around the problem" rather than  letting those in charge make an annoncement
19:24 Krock (jk don't do it)
19:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or pms
19:25 TommyTreasure the instant has been lingering for over an hour :)
19:25 MTDiscord <Jonathon> a typically wok day is 8hrs here, are they only a hour where your at?
19:25 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *a typical work
19:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also since when did krock, a minetest core dev, not count as "in charge"?
19:26 TommyTreasure you obviously have never been self employed
19:26 DivideByZero Johnathan work days here died out over a year ago when everything was shutdown for the plandemic.
19:26 TommyTreasure since when did Jonathon become my master
19:27 Krock > plandemic
19:27 TommyTreasure for sure!
19:27 Krock suspiciously panned
19:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> > According to data from the International Labour Organization, only 12.4 percent of workers are self-employed on average in high-income economies while in low-income economies, this figure rises to 81.9 percent. interesting
19:27 Krock *planed
19:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> planed for panning the virus? :p
19:28 DivideByZero *planned, and yes.
19:28 hlqkj congrats! ^^^
19:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> lol
19:28 hlqkj lol
19:28 VanessaE yeah, that's gonna stop right now.
19:28 homthack joined #minetest
19:29 Krock SIGSEGV also stops quite fast
19:29 VanessaE heh
19:29 DivideByZero I'm self employed, at least I was before coronavirus.
19:30 Krock DivideByZero: until your employer fired you. tough personalities....
19:30 VanessaE Krock: mind merging https://github.com/minetest-mods/skinsdb/pull/59 so I can close the browser tab? :)
19:30 TommyTreasure self-employed means you oinly have to work half a day, and you get to pick which half
19:30 Krock VanessaE: uuh well
19:30 Krock how about bell? are they no longer active?
19:31 Krock a few commits in the last weeks
19:31 VanessaE *shrug*
19:31 DivideByZero Self employed can often mean you work all day without pay on some days.
19:31 Krock oh well -.- maybe tomorrow
19:32 Krock seeing all those constants makes me almost try
19:32 Krock s/try/cry/
19:32 VanessaE heh
19:32 MTDiscord <luk3yx> Was their any attempt to reach out to MultiCraft to tell them to change their server promotion before applying https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3?
19:32 VanessaE can't really be helped :)
19:32 Krock sfx() https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1pAlrFDTu8
19:33 MTDiscord <Jonathon> luk: not that i saw at all, nothing in issues or PR's
19:34 Kray joined #minetest
19:34 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems sfan5 just did it
19:35 MTDiscord <Jonathon> of the 3, only one i can find a issue for is https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/37
19:36 DivideByZero Servers that still support v 4 are also being penalized? "specificially, penalize servers that support both v4 and v5 Reasoning: We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version."
19:38 TommyTreasure minetest is being penalized
19:40 kamdard joined #minetest
19:41 DivideByZero "# reduction to 40% for servers that support both legacy (v4) and v5 clients"
19:41 rubenwardy doesn't effect servers that just support v4, only multicraft servers
19:41 somtalgutoo joined #minetest
19:42 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so basically it targeted a fork
19:42 DivideByZero 40% what?
19:42 VanessaE Jonathon a fork that doesn't play fairly to begin with.
19:43 DivideByZero So multicraft will be placed lower on the server list?
19:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> VanessaE: https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/issues/32
19:43 VanessaE DivideByZero: in theory but they're still showing a few in the top 10
19:43 VanessaE off and on
19:44 luk3yx So the answer to my question is no?
19:44 VanessaE what was the question?
19:44 TommyTreasure and i'll bet that an apple store will never put up a sign claiming the top 3 phones are androids.  :)
19:44 VanessaE Jonathon not relevant.
19:45 VanessaE Jonathon multicraft servers only work with their own client or something like that.
19:45 VanessaE whilst showing up in regular clients' lists
19:45 luk3yx <luk3yx> Was their any attempt to reach out to MultiCraft to tell them to change their server promotion before applying https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3?
19:45 DivideByZero Vanessa: Are you sure? I've played Multicraft with the Minetest client before.
19:45 VanessaE maybe it's the other way around then
19:45 VanessaE I don't rememebr
19:46 DivideByZero I've never used the Multicraft client.
19:46 DivideByZero While we are kind of on this subject, yesterday I came across a website claming to have "Minetest-final"
19:47 VanessaE no
19:47 DivideByZero Wasn't really sure what that was all about, maybe some other fork?
19:47 MTDiscord <Jonathon> no
19:47 VanessaE get the hell away from that site.
19:47 DivideByZero I prefer to use the official anyways.
19:47 TommyTreasure i thought Multicraft was actually a hosting service for MineCraft servers -- https://multicraft.org/
19:47 DivideByZero It did look a bit sketchy.
19:47 luk3yx And can't MultiCraft servers just start pretending to be 5.X on the MT serverlist?
19:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or if they split there listing couldnt the restriction be bypassed?
19:48 DivideByZero Tommy on that page you just shared it says "The Complete Minecraft Server Hosting Solution and Control Panel".  Minecraft vs Minetest ??
19:49 TommyTreasure wouldn't that indicate an infringement on either trademark and/or copyright of a MineCraft service?
19:50 GreenXenith joined #minetest
19:50 luk3yx Hi
19:51 DivideByZero Vanessa: the url for that site is: https://minetest.org/
19:52 VanessaE GTFO
19:52 VanessaE get out of here with that site
19:52 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> whats going on with the serverlist? First, minetest doesnt seem to be showing the serverlist anymore, second, it looks like on https://servers.minetest.net/ all multicraft servers are gone?
19:52 TommyTreasure i totally agree!!!!!!!!!~
19:52 luk3yx No saying the link here
19:52 Krock VanessaE: http://minetest.com/
19:53 DivideByZero If it's a scam site why doesn't it get shut down?  It claims that it's built by one of the oldest senoir devs of Minetest, named OldCoder
19:53 luk3yx MultiCraft servers are penalised now
19:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> use https, and see https://github.com/minetest/serverlist/commit/9f144f3e3c40a52ee423466f19f8eff37f859111
19:53 DivideByZero And the site refers to Minetest 5 as 'Old Minetest 5' lol.
19:53 DivideByZero "There are two major versions of Minetest: Old Minetest 5 and Final Minetest."
19:54 TommyTreasure DivideByZero, you're not making any friends with that information
19:54 DivideByZero "Old Minetest 5 isn't backwards compatible with old clients or modsets. The fork is run by hostile and largely anonymous parties. It's not a group that most parents and schools would choose to be involved with."
19:54 DivideByZero was kicked by VanessaE: DivideByZero
19:55 TommyTreasure i would also suggest you use a TOR browser to visit that site
19:55 DivideByZero joined #minetest
19:55 DivideByZero Why did you kick me for simply sharing information Vanessa?
19:56 DivideByZero I was alerting to the site, not promoting it.
19:56 VanessaE Krock: at least minetest.com is just an old fan-promotional site and doesn't point people to fake sites :)
19:56 luk3yx DivideByZero: You said the website
19:56 luk3yx People here don't like that website being mentioned
19:56 VanessaE DivideByZero: because I said to get out of here with it.
19:56 DivideByZero Wow!
19:56 DivideByZero So much for an open community to be safe to safe information.
19:56 DivideByZero safe to share*
19:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Thats the thing: Its not a safe site.
19:57 VanessaE that guy has a long history of lying, trashing people.
19:57 TommyTreasure you're pouring salt on an open wound
19:57 grumble DivideByZero maybe if you read your private messages you wouldnt run into awkward situations like this
19:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> >people responding to DMs or /msg
19:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> i know a few people like that
19:57 DivideByZero I didn't notice I had a message from you until you just told me to check.
19:58 luk3yx https://xkcd.com/1357/
19:58 VanessaE get a better IRC client that doesn't hide your /msgs :)
19:58 DivideByZero Getting kicked for mentioning a site seems like this channel is turning into a dictatorship, or a communist party. You could have politely explained your issue with it.
19:58 MTDiscord <Jordach> that would fall under technical competencies VE
19:59 VanessaE DivideByZero: getting kicked for mentioning it, then being told NOT to mention it, then mentioning it again.
19:59 VanessaE to be clear.
19:59 TommyTreasure DBZ that's worse than my insults to the dev team.  i suggest you drop the subject
19:59 MTDiscord <Jordach> Minetest has always been a republic dictatorship
19:59 calcul0n_ yeah, biggest problem with dictators is when they kick people from irc :p
19:59 DivideByZero To be clear you didn't say don't mention that site, you said "get out of here with that site".
20:00 VanessaE um
20:00 DivideByZero And explaination of why you feel that way would have been helpful.
20:00 TommyTreasure and you insist on talking about it
20:00 DivideByZero and an* ..
20:00 VanessaE doesn't it follow that if someone says get out, that talking further about it is kinda a bad idea?
20:00 DivideByZero And as I also said, if it is such a sore spot, why don't you all get the site shut down? Then no one could mention it.
20:01 VanessaE we have no control over it.
20:01 MTDiscord <Jordach> don't you think we've already  t r i e d that
20:01 DivideByZero "Cease and desist order"
20:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Well
20:01 MTDiscord <Jordach> if it's a stupid question, we've already answered it years ago
20:01 TommyTreasure dvz, with that theory, why don't you get freenode shutdown for allowing someone to kick you
20:01 DivideByZero Is Minetest trademarked?
20:01 VanessaE it's a scam website run by a hostile user who has no connection to Minetest anymore.
20:01 DivideByZero If it's trademarked you have rights.
20:01 VanessaE no it isn't.  and in fact HE tried to trademark it, or threatened to.
20:02 VanessaE so just stop talking about it
20:02 DivideByZero Well Trademark it then.
20:02 DivideByZero Then you have the crontrol back.
20:02 MTDiscord <Jordach> >open source
20:02 MTDiscord <Jordach> >money
20:02 MTDiscord <Jordach> KEK
20:02 TommyTreasure i would never use he in caps in reference to him
20:02 VanessaE TommyTreasure: emphasis only.
20:02 DivideByZero Trademarking only costs around $400. I trademark my brand names.
20:02 MTDiscord <Jordach> these next words are from someone with experience in here
20:02 MTDiscord <appguru> DivideByZero: OldCoder drama is best left in the past, no point in stirring a long overcooked pot.
20:03 MTDiscord <Jordach> shut your mouth before it bites you on the arse
20:03 luk3yx Hi appguru
20:03 luk3yx Any progress with modlib?
20:03 MTDiscord <appguru> Hi luk
20:03 MTDiscord <appguru> heh
20:03 MTDiscord <Jordach> "progress" lmao
20:04 DivideByZero https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks
20:04 MTDiscord <appguru> progress.
20:04 MTDiscord <appguru> that's quite narrow minded -nan
20:05 MTDiscord <appguru> the world isn't the US
20:05 MTDiscord <Eggy1> pretty sure he filed in Australia
20:05 DivideByZero US trademarking helps to protect your marks in some other countries as well.
20:05 MTDiscord <Eggy1> I never heard how that went
20:05 MTDiscord <appguru> Back to topic, why is the serverlist so sluggish? Could it be that someone is DDOSing it?
20:05 DivideByZero China excluded for sure.
20:05 MTDiscord <Jordach> i wonder why
20:05 MTDiscord <Jordach> 🤔
20:05 TommyTreasure its been down for about 3 hours now
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20:07 MTDiscord <Eggy1> LOL, oldcoder should have filed trademark in China
20:08 DivideByZero Tommy: Why keep complaining? They already said someone will fix it ..eventually.
20:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Down? I woulnd't say down. Slow, perhaps.
20:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> wouldnt*
20:08 TommyTreasure are you also my master?
20:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> No, I am your father.
20:08 MTDiscord <Jordach> we aren't slaves or at ransom to random shits like you btw
20:08 MTDiscord <Eggy1> +1
20:08 TommyTreasure that would make you at leas 100 years old  LOL
20:08 DivideByZero I get kicked for mentioning a server, maybe you should get a kick for excessive complaining?
20:08 MTDiscord <Jordach> how about read the room and or staff
20:08 VanessaE you got kicked for mentioning a hostile person and his work after being told not to
20:08 MTDiscord <Eggy1> zero calm down
20:08 TommyTreasure dvd, do it!
20:08 TommyTreasure dvz, that is
20:08 VanessaE so just stop before someone makes it more permanent.
20:09 TommyTreasure you should research things before you make dumb comments
20:09 jess whoa whats going on here
20:09 rubenwardy trademarking costs $400, and taking down a .org site with a trademark costs $1500
20:09 rubenwardy it's not worth it
20:09 DivideByZero Vanessa: You didn't actually tell me not to, but if that's you opinion I'm not going to argue with your position of authority and be repeatedly kicked, banned, or abused. I'll just accept that you are correct and leave it at that.
20:09 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> @rubenwardy It's free if you know which path to take :]
20:09 VanessaE good.
20:09 MTDiscord <appguru> Abused?
20:09 MTDiscord <appguru> Are you trolling?
20:09 VanessaE because no one here will say I'm wrong :)
20:09 MTDiscord <appguru> I don't see how anyone is abusing you here
20:10 MTDiscord <appguru> Stop abusing the english language
20:10 MTDiscord <Eggy1> start a gofundme
20:11 MTDiscord <Eggy1> you might get enough
20:12 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> Also MT needs to be a LLC or similar legal entity in order to trademark anything AFAIK
20:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> hold my beer
20:12 DivideByZero Ihr: that's not true.
20:12 VanessaE appguru, well do remember what they say about the English language:  other languages grow and evolve.  English follows them down dark alleys, beats them senselesss, an rifles through their pockets for new vocabulary. :)
20:12 MTDiscord <Eggy1> gtg
20:12 sofar trademarks can be registered to a person
20:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> also this
20:12 MTDiscord <appguru> Reasoning: We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version.
20:12 MTDiscord <appguru> Sounds reasonable
20:12 VanessaE appguru which is to say, English is already abusive, so to abuse it in response isn't so horrible :P
20:12 MTDiscord <appguru> lol
20:13 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> Reasoning: Hmm... now, #3 on the serverlist is a 0.4.x server...
20:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault
20:13 MTDiscord <appguru> #3 on the serverlist doesn't matter at all
20:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3 -- Furnace segfault
20:13 MTDiscord <appguru> 5.x clients put it at the end of the serverlist anyways
20:13 VanessaE a 0.4.x server is fine on its own..
20:13 MTDiscord <appguru> And let's be honest here, nobody uses the web serverlist
20:14 MTDiscord <appguru> And if we do, we just filter out 0.4.x
20:14 VanessaE a server that claims to support both protocols by definition needs to limit the 5.0 side to features 0.4 supports
20:14 Hawk777 > We, as a project, have no interest in promoting servers that intentionally restrict themselves to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version.
20:14 Hawk777 A server running actual 0.4 has exactly the same problem, does it not? It is restricting itself to the feature set of an old, potentially buggy version?
20:15 MTDiscord <appguru> TBH I'd penalize 0.4 servers as well
20:15 rubenwardy doesn't make a different
20:18 rubenwardy it's functionally the same to clients, as clients push versions they don't support to the bottom
20:18 MTDiscord <appguru> Yeah
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20:19 MTDiscord <appguru> Seeing as Multicraft appears to be hiding Minetest servers on Multicraft clients, it is probably fair to penalize their servers on Minetest clients
20:20 MTDiscord <appguru> Not to mention other questionable affiliations of the MuC-using network...
20:20 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> If a server can make a game that works with the features of 0.4, whats wrong with that?
20:22 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> if they can reach a wider audience, Id say more publicity, the better
20:22 MTDiscord <appguru> People have to be incentivized to upgrade
20:22 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> why?
20:24 MTDiscord <appguru> Because supporting 0.4.x is a PITA for all involved.
20:24 MTDiscord <appguru> And upgrading isn't a remotely comparable PITA.
20:24 Telesight Hello all ... Is something going on with the serverlist?
20:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> well yes, but stuff like FS51 make it easy
20:24 MTDiscord <appguru> 0.4.x is EOL, people should stop using it
20:24 MTDiscord <appguru> TBF the serverlist might even stop showing 0.4.x servers entirely IMO
20:24 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> hmm... Id point out that the default linux packages are still on 0.4 for many OSs
20:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^valid point
20:24 MTDiscord <appguru> Use the snap.
20:24 DivideByZero Debian still offers 0.4
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20:36 Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.4.0 (2021-02-23) | General, player and modder discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest
20:36 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> So a "simple switch" is definitely not viable for MT
20:36 MTDiscord <MisterE, Modder of Sorts> ok... well, I see that even with the serverlist changes, Multicraft is still near the top, and I am satisfied with that.
20:36 MTDiscord <appguru> DivideByZero: Check. Your. Sources. "Since Ubuntu version 16.04, the spyware search facility is now disabled by default. It appears that the campaign of pressure launched by this article has been partly successful."
20:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i assume multicraft2 still supports minimum protocol version
20:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so that would be a "switch"
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21:00 Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.4.0 (2021-02-23) | General, player and modder discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest
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21:38 Topic for #minetest is now The official Minetest channel | Latest version: 5.4.0 (2021-02-23) | General, player and modder discussion is on-topic. If in doubt, post here | Responses may take a while, be patient | Rules: https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: https://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest
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22:20 Panquesito7 Is Texmex (tacotexmex) available here?
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22:40 ar10ch Right, I know it can be done - it's like: U trundle along, u hit something, going forward no longer works but player is still pressing forward, so we'll go up. UNLESS player chooses sneak, because they've found a way around.... Yeah I wanna make a Star Wars style landspeeder that detects the ground in front of it and adjusts its altitude accordingly. But if something similar has already been done then, pls, point me to it, i
22:40 ar10ch dont wanna reinvent the wheel! Sorry for the long description but not sorry - sick of hearing RTFM. Thanks.
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22:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't think there's any risk of reinventing the wheel if it's a landspeeder.
22:45 VanessaE camo modpack has hovercraft but they don't work well (moving one moves others)

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