Time  Nick       Message
03:56 Verticen   Is there any way to play minetest in simple sterioscopic 3d? Just a simple side-by-side screen split would be fine - I can handle the rest. Is there a mod out there that can do this?
04:37 minduser00 Verticen: look at the minetest settings, menu Client/Graphics/Inside game/advanced/
04:39 minduser00 there is a setting 3d-mode
04:55 Verticen   <minduser00> Thank you!
06:56 tango_     Calinou: for moreblocks there is actually one more old recipe that needs updating, that would be the rails one. However the changes in default are considerably more extensive, so it probably needs more reasoning on how to “expand” it for moreblocks. shall I open an issue about this on github?
11:10 Helenah    I don't like the way the authentication systems work on Minetest.
11:10 Helenah    It's horrible when I want to control who can be a member and who can't.
11:10 Helenah    One can simply click "Register", type their password in again and voila...
11:10 Helenah    I installed NoNew mod, but it isn't the solution I want.
11:11 Helenah    I don't want one to create an account, the server kick them then purge their account, I don't see this as secure but rather hacky.
11:12 Helenah    What I'm wanting to do is disable the registration function in its entirety and I manually add users to a database. You see, my minetest server isn't for the public, it's for my club members to play with each other.
11:12 tango_     Helenah: there are a couple of solutions
11:12 tango_     Helenah: one way to do it is to set a default password
11:12 tango_     then new users would have to know that password, or they will be rejected
11:12 tango_     then you can either give the default password to your club members, or add them manually
11:14 Helenah    tango_: So... user foo types "foo" install the username field and bar into the password field where bar is always the default password that was set?
11:14 tango_     Helenah: they can change their password afterwards
11:15 tango_     or if you add them manually just give them a different password and they'll login with that
11:15 tango_     my friends are I are using this mechanism
11:15 Helenah    tango_: I want to add them manually.
11:15 tango_     then don't give them the default password
11:15 Helenah    Okay
11:17 Helenah    tango_: What is rollback recording?
11:18 tango_     Helenah: whtat?
11:18 tango_     what?
11:19 Helenah    tango_: A config option called enable_rollback_recording
11:20 tango_     Helenah: not sure about the details, but it basically records the actions taken so that they can be rolled back in case of failures
11:20 Helenah    oh nice
11:21 tango_     Helenah: eh, depends on which mods you use,
11:21 tango_     see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2335 and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6577
11:25 Helenah    tango_: Read
11:28 Helenah    tango_: I might have put it in the wrong place, but minetest.conf has ignored "default_password
11:28 Helenah    I was able to get onto the server
11:29 Helenah    Oh, actually it works! So accounts are still created even with NoNew?! That's bad... that mod is gone now anyway.
11:29 tango_     good
11:30 Helenah    tango_: How do I remove an account? I've found out how to create one.
11:30 tango_     Helenah: no idea
11:32 Helenah    tango_: Apparently I've to edit auth.sqlite :/
11:33 Helenah    I might write something
11:34 Helenah    I don't wanna manually mess around with a database... that's crazy.
11:35 Helenah    I found something that looked interesting though, a function to make minetest use a custom authentication handler.
12:13 rubenwardy [11:11] <558b2fHelenah> I don't want one to create an account, the server kick them then purge their account, I don't see this as secure but rather hacky
12:13 rubenwardy This isn't how it worked. The account is never created
12:14 rubenwardy [11:12] <Helenah> What I'm wanting to do is disable the registration function in its entirety and I manually add users to a database. You see, my minetest server isn't for the public, it's for my club members to play with each other.
12:14 rubenwardy You can do this with a custom authentication handler
12:14 rubenwardy Rejecting a player in Prejoin will mean their account is never created
12:14 rubenwardy Although, they still see the form I guess
12:15 rubenwardy With a custom auth handler, you would prevent them from seeing that form
12:16 rubenwardy See register_auth_handler in lua_api
12:17 rubenwardy Also, don't put your server on the serverlist if it's not for the public
12:18 rubenwardy Sauth is an example of a custom auth handler backed by an sqlite database
12:19 rubenwardy Actually, setting a default password would probably have a similar effect to this whilst keeping the existing database
12:24 rubenwardy Ok, it may actually create an auth row for the user but not a profile when rejected
12:33 Helenah    If I was to write a better authentication system for minetest, would you accept it?
12:34 specing    > Helenah | I don't wanna manually mess around with a database... that's crazy.
12:34 specing    well, actually
12:34 specing    you could make a nice webapp for manually adding users
12:34 specing    or an IRC bot
12:35 Helenah    specing: Yeah, I was thinking of writing something like that.
12:35 Helenah    rubenwardy: I've looked into the register_auth_handler already, it's nice.
12:36 specing    and, since it uses a db, you should be able to do it without touching MT source at all
12:37 Helenah    specing: Well for one, the auth system tells people why they were rejected ie "invalid password", you know that's a security vulnerability, right?
12:38 Helenah    That hints the person what to bruteforce allowing them to know they entered an existing username.
12:38 Helenah    This is bad.
12:38 rubenwardy That's called user enumeration
12:38 Helenah    It should be changed to "access denied" or something like that
12:38 Helenah    That way they've to guess whether the username or the password is incorrect.
12:38 rubenwardy You can usually user enumerate using user registration
12:39 rubenwardy If that's possible, then there's no need to protect against username enumeration on login
12:39 rubenwardy Well, registration could be disabled
12:40 Helenah    rubenwardy: Thing is... I set a default password but now I'm having to change the message to "access denied" cause when a user tries to register, they get "invalid password" and I don't want them figuring out what I did...
12:40 Helenah    rubenwardy: So how do I simply disable it?
12:40 Helenah    It isn't actually disabled when a default password is set.
12:40 specing    Helenah: How is that a vulnerability?
12:40 specing    it's not
12:40 Helenah    specing: How is it not?
12:40 Helenah    You are telling the person "invalid password" which is true.
12:41 specing    Helenah: you can scrape the master server list for usernames, and then bruteforce them when they are not logged in
12:41 Helenah    Surely you don't tell your attacker they got a password wrong but leave them in the lurk wondering what they did wrong.
12:41 sfan5      it's a vulnerability if your scenario is to deny new users without leaking the info that they require a password
12:41 Helenah    sfan5: That's the point
12:41 sfan5      ..but that's not a common scenario
12:41 Helenah    and will be the point for a lot of people wanting a closed up server.
12:41 Helenah    Surely
12:42 Helenah    Lets say you got a website and a login feature, surely you don't tell the person attempting to sign in where they went wrong but rather just deny them and tell them they were denied but not why they were denied.
12:42 rubenwardy Depends
12:42 Helenah    rubenwardy: On what?
12:42 Calinou    tango_: sure :)
12:42 rubenwardy What information you're protecting against
12:43 Helenah    rubenwardy: The information I'm protecting against ofc!
12:43 Helenah    It's that simple
12:43 rubenwardy ContentDB tells you if your username doesn't exist because you can already enumerate usernames publically
12:43 Helenah    surely
12:43 Helenah    rubenwardy: So allow them to think "Oh I need to enumerate"
12:44 Helenah    Don't like hint them into doing so as they might have not thought "Lets enumerate"
12:44 rubenwardy With minetest accounts, you can enumerate if registration is enabled
12:44 specing    I wish there was a common auth db shared to all servers
12:44 Calinou    to be fair, the message could be changed to "invalid username or password"
12:44 specing    so I didn't have to register in every new server
12:44 Calinou    but I wouldn't go further than that
12:44 Helenah    specing: If people want it them yes
12:44 rubenwardy I don't think it's a good idea to reduce user experience for the sake of security theatre
12:44 Helenah    But that should be a choice for the person hosting the server
12:44 Helenah    Not enforced
12:45 specing    Helenah: it should be enforced
12:45 Helenah    ...
12:45 Calinou    I doubt anyone will go through the length of enumerating usernames to bruteforce their passwords on a game where no money is involved
12:45 rubenwardy "ivalid username or password" makes sense if registration is disabled, which is something you want to support
12:45 specing    you log-in to the lobby, and then the lobby auths you to servers
12:45 Calinou    this isn't Steam account cracking, it's an open source game with no paid in-game items
12:46 Helenah    Why are we bringing open source vs proprietary vs real money into the discussion?
12:46 rubenwardy The Minetest login system does need to change to separate register and login, because currently it's confusing
12:51 Helenah    rubenwardy: Also allow for a server to not accept registrations.
12:51 Helenah    With that, you'd hit the Register feature for that server within the client.
12:52 Helenah    *hide
12:52 rubenwardy Exactly, you require that separation in order to properly disable it
12:52 Helenah    Now onto what specing was saying...
12:53 Helenah    If someone wants their server to be a member of a public lobby of servers
12:53 Helenah    Then they've to set it I think
12:54 Helenah    One example is I like to log into Minetest servers as "Helenah"
12:54 Helenah    but I noticed on some of them, that username is taken cause of how simple it is.
12:54 Helenah    So I choose another one for those particular servers.
12:54 specing    I also wish for rules to be published somewhere before you register/login
12:55 specing    maybe as another json tag in the master list
12:55 Helenah    specing: Surely rules should be down to the admins of the server.
12:55 Helenah    Not the minetest community
12:55 specing    yes
12:55 specing    What I meant was a way for the rules to be published on the server list
12:55 Helenah    Ah, sorry I may have misunderstood that part.
12:55 Helenah    Yes, that would be good
12:56 Helenah    You register, and you've to agree to rules, like how WoW does it with their TOS and EULA but in this case, it would be server rules.
12:56 Calinou    "real money" is a big incentive for people cracking into accounts
12:56 Helenah    I'm for that feature
12:56 Calinou    it's why it's heavily advised to use 2FA for a Steam account :)
12:56 specing    Helenah: it could/should be before registration
12:56 Calinou    even Minecraft accounts aren't that cheap, with the game being sold for €26
12:57 Helenah    specing: Yeah, that's a good point actually.
12:57 specing    Helenah: there was a server that presented me with a rules formspec when I joined. It even kicked me when I pressed disagree :P
12:57 Calinou    in other words, trust in https://xkcd.com/538
12:59 rubenwardy I use such a formspec
13:02 Helenah    rubenwardy: Which formspec are you using?
13:02 rubenwardy https://github.com/mt-ctf/rules
13:06 Helenah    "1. No swearing, dating, or other inappriopriate behaviour.",
13:06 Helenah    Lol "dating" haha
13:06 Helenah    Sorry.. I should laugh...
13:06 Helenah    Anyway, thank you for linking me to that rubenwardy :)
13:06 rubenwardy Immature kids pretend to date
13:06 Helenah    *shouldn't
13:06 rubenwardy It's annoying to everyone, so banned
13:06 Helenah    Ah
13:08 Helenah    rubenwardy: What's wrong with a bit of play though?
13:08 Helenah    I'm a kitty cat on my server!
13:09 specing    It's a dating sandbox!
13:10 Helenah    rubenwardy: Theres even the "courtyard of cock"
13:10 Helenah    Is there an offtopic channel?
13:10 * Helenah  checks topic
13:10 Helenah    No, there isn't, but I'll stop saying things like this.
13:11 tango_     Calinou: https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreblocks/issues/162 tried to gather all the info I could
13:11 rubenwardy This channel is basically offtopic
13:11 rubenwardy It's unmoderated
13:11 Helenah    Oh phew
13:11 Helenah    phew
13:11 rubenwardy Well, as in not a moderated strict chat. There are still moderators
13:12 Helenah    Anyway, outside the tower for trapping maidens, theres a signs adverting a job offer for anyone who wants to provide their titties.
13:14 tango_     which is perfectly fine if that's what you want your server to be about
13:14 tango_     otoh I can see why rubenwardy wouldn't want shenanigans on theirs
13:15 rubenwardy The rules on CTF were quite lax to begin with, but then I had a few parents complain
13:17 Helenah    rubenwardy: Well that's fair enough if you intend for peoples kids to go on there as well as adults.
13:17 Helenah    Though mine is a private server and there will be no unauthorised people on there
13:17 specing    rubenwardy: parents? really?
13:17 Helenah    and the way my principles are is... we shouldn't be hiding children away from things so even if a 2 year old went on there and a parent complained to me that there was swearing or sex or whatever, I'd ignore it.
13:20 rubenwardy I don't really play CTF, the rules and general management are handled by other people now
13:23 rubenwardy If I were to make a new server, I wouldn't cater to kids quite so much - I'd still ban sexual behaviour and stuff but swearing is a big part of communication
13:24 rubenwardy You could also make the server less appealing to them. CTF is peak for that, given the trend for PvP
13:24 Helenah    rubenwardy: Yeah, as a 4 year old, I knew of terms like "fuck" and "shit" and "pedophile" and through knowing these terms as I young age I was then taught boundaries which I have as an adult.
13:24 rubenwardy The code behind CTF was originally written to be used in a kingdom Vs kingdom game, where players make different castles or whatever
13:25 Helenah    If we hid children from this stuff until they were 18, they would be vulgar.
13:25 Helenah    Cause they'd have no boundaries with it.
13:25 rubenwardy I don't think it's about hiding so much as not normalising quite so much
15:18 lmat       I'm making a road way up in the sky. How should I make the offramps? I see that I can make roads:asphault_stairs, but galvanized fencing doesn't follow the steps down... any ideas?
16:20 Helenah    How do I convert technic HV to MV and to LV?
16:20 Helenah    o.o
16:20 Helenah    It seems... transformers are built into the machines...
16:20 Helenah    But I don't wanna have to run all three cable types everywhere...
16:21 SwissalpS  converters is what they are called, iirc. input on top and output at bottom
16:21 Helenah    Oh, supply converter.
16:21 Helenah    SwissalpS: Can it... convert HV to LV?
16:21 SwissalpS  you can convert LV to HV too, yes that way too
16:21 Helenah    Sorry, there isn't much documentation.
16:22 SwissalpS  what some forget is to put switching station on both networks
16:23 Helenah    Wait...
16:23 Helenah    So lets say...
16:23 Helenah    I have an HV network and an LV network connected together, I've to put a switching station on both? o.o
16:24 SwissalpS  yes, one for HV and one for LV. The converters 'connect'
16:24 Helenah    So, converter between the two switching stations?
16:25 SwissalpS  I say converters bc mostly you want more than one. each can convert max 10kEU
16:25 SwissalpS  one SS on HV cable which is on top of converters, one SS on LV cable which is on bottom of converters
16:38 Helenah    How do I pick up a mobs_animal?
16:38 Helenah    The documentation says they can be "picked up" but doesn't say "how".
16:39 Helenah    Oh it has to be tamed, right
16:39 SwissalpS  I've set up an extensive mobs tutorial on pandorabox.io
16:40 SwissalpS  oc only the mobs used there
16:45 Helenah    SwissalpS: Appareciated, I wanted to say the documentation is poor but I held back.
16:47 SwissalpS  yeah, kinda why I made an in-game tutorial
18:15 Helenah    Why is the AI in mobs_redo soo stupid?
18:16 MTDiscord  <11J​onathon> give mobkit a chance?
18:16 Helenah    Okies
18:17 Helenah    Jonathon, mobs don't spawn in front of you and then despawn when you turn around, right?
18:18 rubenwardy because it's naively implemented
18:18 rubenwardy mobkit looks better, although the API is a mess
18:20 Helenah    rubenwardy: What about the behaviour of the AI?
18:20 Helenah    Does it stay spawned when you are around?
18:21 rubenwardy the behaviour seems to be better
18:21 Helenah    I mean the other day I watched a crocodile turn into a shark, turned my back on it, it vanished...
18:21 rubenwardy as for staying spawned, that's may be the engine killing mapblocks too quickly
18:21 rubenwardy you can try increasing the active range
18:21 rubenwardy it could also just be mobs redo
18:23 Helenah    rubenwardy: When I turned my back, I didn't mean I walked away, I mean I just turned
18:23 Helenah    so why would the mapblock become unloaded?
18:23 rubenwardy I understand that - the engine uses your look direction to increase the load distance in that direction
18:23 rubenwardy but that shouldn't unload things near you
18:24 Helenah    rubenwardy: I'd say the shark was 5 blocks away from me
18:24 Helenah    So it's probably mobs_redo then
18:39 Helenah    Jonathon: mobkit sounds to be incomplete.
18:39 Helenah    rubenwardy: ^
18:39 rubenwardy yes
18:39 rubenwardy everything is incomplete
18:40 rubenwardy mobkit is also just an API, there's mods that use it:  https://content.minetest.net/metapackages/mobkit/
19:48 hecks      So how do you skin item slots in forms and the hud? Is that even possible?
19:52 sfan5      gui_hotbar.png gui_hotbar_selected.png, dunno to which extent those are configurable
19:57 hecks      recommended size?
19:58 hecks      gui_hotbar provided by the game is somehow ignored
20:04 hecks      oh it's api
20:04 hecks      hud_set_hotbar_image
21:47 perrier    mob_chance_multiplier do higher numbers mean less mobs or more?
22:13 tango_     cripes, getting rid of flowing water underwater is nontrivial
22:14 perrier    I think the update to unified inventory this morning deleted my bag.
23:54 SwissalpS  perrier: it's 1 out of x chance
23:55 SwissalpS  so x = 1 would mean every time