Time  Nick        Message
00:00 specing     I prefer TechPack
00:01 Gustavo6046 ?
00:01 Gustavo6046 iamweasel: ah
00:01 Gustavo6046 specing: don't let Vanny know
00:01 Gustavo6046 :P
00:02 Gustavo6046 There were those wide plains of sand and silver sand mixed. But there was no desert sand or desert stone, nor were there cacti. They were not deserts?
00:03 specing     I think she suspects from my bug reports
00:04 Gustavo6046 lol
00:05 Gustavo6046 if I have the guts to learn Minetest's Lua API (not the first time I mention that condition), I will fork it and makeitgood :D
00:05 Gustavo6046 Disregard the very obscure Re-Volt reference, but still
00:08 specing     I did just that
00:13 Gustavo6046 :o ?
00:14 Gustavo6046 I want to know that
00:38 Hawk777     I was wondering, I know there has been some talk about moving away from Minetest Game being considered “the default”. At this point, my distro package manager provides Minetest but not MTG. However, MTG is also not available for download from contentdb, with the comment “Because minetest game is currently distributed with the client, and so we don't want users to download it”. Is it intended that MTG should be shipped alon
00:38 Hawk777     h MT still, or is it intended to be “just another game”? If the former, it seems it ought to be in a distro package. If the latter, it seems it ought to be in contentdb.
00:38 Hawk777     Of course I can grab it from git, but it seems like this situation is missing some pieces.
00:40 Hawk777     This is not meant as an accusation of anything missing at the devs—merely a question of which packaging method is *intended* to be used.
01:11 iamweasel   i would double-check you distro does not have mtg in repo, and then just git or dowload tarball matching your engine version
01:11 iamweasel   what distro is it, i am curious?
01:16 specing     Gustavo6046: https://framagit.org/specing/minetest + https://framagit.org/specing/csm  enjoy
01:17 Gustavo6046 specing: ooh
01:17 Gustavo6046 wait, is it a native mod?
01:18 Gustavo6046 like does it require your fork of minetest?
01:18 Gustavo6046 I was referring to forking pipeworks
01:19 specing     Yes, it requires my engine
01:19 specing     it's a collection of CSMs
01:19 Gustavo6046 Ah
01:19 Gustavo6046 Meh
01:20 Gustavo6046 Interesting!
04:09 Gustavo6046 If an ore cluster spawns partially into a bunch of gravel, is it possible for the parts that try to spawn into it to wind up spawning in the other side?
04:09 Gustavo6046 Like the first stone in a breadth-first floodfill
04:16 Sokomine    Gustavo6046: yes, exactly, dms do fire fireballs. i think it's a misbehaviour. mobs ought to be friendly towards players :-) (even if we invade their territory and steal their property)
04:17 Gustavo6046 Ah
04:17 Gustavo6046 lol :P
06:12 iamweasel   Sokomine: i was looking for a mod that has the magic wand or whatnot to fire the same fireballs, but couldn't find one :)
06:12 iamweasel   must be a 3-liner
06:14 iamweasel   yeah, how about that? like a wand and and expensive catalyst, non-stackable, to fire a dm fireball?
06:14 iamweasel   ten+1 implemented burbon just cuz i whined, i think if i submit a pull request, it's a slam dunk :D
10:16 daiNoZord   find_node_near seems to behave until it finds first instance of specified node, rtn pos of found node. but then returns pos every time placed.... i've found a couple of examples but cant quite get it to work
10:18 sfan5       you can exclude the center position from the search if you need to
10:19 daiNoZord   am i right in thinking that it's pos, radius, node name?
10:24 daiNoZord   it gets upset if i take away its arguments
10:27 sfan5       !api
10:27 MinetestBot Someone thinks you should read the API docs, please go to: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
10:27 sfan5       pos, radius, node names yes
10:27 sfan5       and as an optional fourth argument you can tell it not to search the center position
10:27 daiNoZord   ok thanks
10:34 daiNoZord   false by default
10:35 sfan5       oh indeed
10:37 daiNoZord   i was reading a conversation a while ago that must have predated the option to enable
13:53 Calinou     More Blocks 2.1.0 released: https://github.com/minetest-mods/moreblocks/releases/tag/v2.1.0
13:54 rubenwardy  and ContentDB is broke
13:56 Calinou     it seems ContentDB is trying to do automatic import
13:56 Calinou     not sure if it'll work
13:57 Calinou     yeah, it's not working: "fatal: update_ref failed for ref 'HEAD': cannot update ref 'refs/heads/master"
13:57 Calinou     how do I manually configure a release once it was created automatically?
13:57 Calinou     do I have to create a new one?
13:57 Calinou     or delete the previous ne
13:58 Calinou     yeah, I removed the old one and created a new one
13:58 Calinou     it's still failing to fetch it though
14:00 tango_      woohoo
14:04 rubenwardy  I think it's the same bug as this: https://github.com/minetest/contentdb/issues/249
14:04 rubenwardy  The Git stuff in ContentDB is easily the most unreliable part
14:27 daiNoZord   if somebody doesn't ban me soon, I can't promise I won't ask another question...!
14:27 daiNoZord   unless i go and learn latin instead. I might find that easier
15:38 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> what?
15:40 rubenwardy  unless i go and learn latin instead. I might find that easier
15:45 Helenah     VanessaE: Is HDX texture pack out of date?
15:45 Helenah     It seems to have textures in there which I assume are incorrectly named.
15:52 VanessaE    it needs some updates
15:52 VanessaE    kinda outdated now yeah
16:35 Helenah     VanessaE: I'm assuming I just need to simply rename some of the files.
16:35 Helenah     I can see there are textures available which aren't being applied, while other available textures are being applied.
16:36 VanessaE    yeah, that's all that would be needed
16:36 VanessaE    pull requests welcome btw
16:37 VanessaE    I don't know what all has changed since I don't have much opportunity to use HDX anyway
16:37 VanessaE    (MT doesn't run well on my machine, never has, and HDX just kills what little FPS I do have)
16:43 Helenah     Ah :3
16:47 tango_      rubenwardy: rememebr when you suggested that a PR to improve placement could be considered maintenance and I was skeptical?
16:48 tango_      I should have bet money ;-) https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2797
16:48 tango_      and this is the simple one
16:48 tango_      no way I'm going to submit the moreblock enhancement while paramat is around
16:53 VanessaE    fire him :P
16:55 tango_      eh 8-)
16:55 tango_      VanessaE: I'm just going with a friendly fork with that stuff
16:55 VanessaE    you'll be playing into his hands
16:56 VanessaE    sorry to be bitter here, but the whole point of closing off future feature dev in mtg was to encourage forks
16:56 VanessaE    which I disagree with intensely.
16:56 tango_      me too
16:56 tango_      but we could do a single fork 8-)
16:57 sfan5       I actually planned to do that but haven't come around to it
16:58 tango_      sfan5: do the fork?
16:58 sfan5       yes
16:59 tango_      I'm more than happy with somebody else taking over
16:59 VanessaE    every time someone's tried to fork MT or mtg it's always ended up as a dead project.
16:59 tango_      my intention was to keep it friendly, not a full fork
16:59 VanessaE    (well apart from some android forks which seem to persist)
16:59 tango_      so kept in sync with the maintenance of the “official” mtg
16:59 sfan5       VanessaE: *or* merged into MTG
16:59 tango_      VanessaE: OTOH, the mtg we have now was a fork once
17:00 tango_      from the last time this BS happened
17:00 VanessaE    fair point, both
17:00 VanessaE    but now paramat has closed that avenue, sfan5
17:00 tango_      at least for now
17:00 tango_      this is why I think it's important to stick to ONE friendly fork
17:01 tango_      it imports maintenance fixes from the frozen MTG, but provides room for improvements
17:01 VanessaE    maybe I should transition Dreambuilder back to a full game distro :)
17:01 tango_      I'm calling it MTG+, but I suck at logos https://github.com/Oblomov/minetest_game/tree/mtg-plus
17:01 VanessaE    (it started as a fork of mtg, then became a modpack as that was easier to maintain)
17:02 tango_      well, a modback is actually easier to maintain with a frozen base
17:02 tango_      modpack
17:02 rubenwardy  VanessaE: MTG was frozen in 2013, and then thawed in 2014 ish after a fork was merged into it
17:02 tango_      e.g. you don't have to worry about recipes changing upstrem
17:02 rubenwardy  it's happened before
17:02 VanessaE    rubenwardy: sure I remember that, but that wasn't a permanent freeze.
17:02 rubenwardy  years roughly wrong
17:02 tango_      VanessaE: see e.g. the changes I made recently to moreblocks, to resync some of the recipes
17:02 rubenwardy  neither is this one, VanessaE
17:03 VanessaE    rubenwardy: er, you better check again
17:03 tango_      this is just until paramat gets bored and drops out of the project ;-)
17:03 VanessaE    I'm pretty sure paramat intends to kill it.
17:03 rubenwardy  it's no more permanent than the previous freeze - there wasn't a duration or end date in either case
17:03 tango_      somebody please find something interesting to do for paramat
17:04 sfan5       there is no certainty that MTG won't be unfrozen but discontinuing it entirely is meant to encourage different games and stop people from only focusing on MTG
17:04 sfan5       so from that angle you're correct
17:04 rubenwardy  yeah
17:04 rubenwardy  plus no one wants to work on MTG currently, it's basically been dead for years
17:04 VanessaE    rubenwardy: "Because we need to move on from MTG, which is holding MT back. There is still too much focus on MTG, core dev and contributor time is better spent elsewhere on new games."
17:05 rubenwardy  same for the previous freeze
17:05 VanessaE    hard to read that as anything other than "mtg is dead".
17:05 rubenwardy  the previous freeze was to encourage modding
17:06 rubenwardy  in any case, people need to work on games and escape the design-by-committee that plagues MTG
17:08 VanessaE    design by committee?  hah
17:08 VanessaE    a committee of one, maybe :P
17:08 specing     I find the whole game idea silly
17:08 rubenwardy  well, it's practically the same problem - it's trying to fulfill conflicting problems without satisfying everyone
17:09 specing     a game is a collection of mods, which are picked by server hosts and that define the game that is played
17:09 specing     I don't think MTG should exist at all
17:10 VanessaE    rubenwardy: your comment  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2710#issuecomment-655705075  still holds true, imho
17:12 VanessaE    I mean think about it
17:12 sfan5       it still is true, MTG eventually needs a replacement
17:12 VanessaE    take MTG, remove that which you don't like, add new mods until it's right, publish
17:13 VanessaE    (by remove I could also mean to add config options to disable those things)
17:14 VanessaE    and that's what every server owner out there does (if you s/publish/go live/)
17:15 tango_      rubenwardy: the problem with the “maintenance only” is that what consitutes a feature and what consitutes a maintenance action is entirely subjective
17:15 VanessaE    since to the engine, a game mod is no different from an add-on mod, apart from load order/dependency resolution.
17:15 tango_      rubenwardy: I created two PRs that are maintenance-only (make lava reproduction optional and ladder placement improvements) and they are considered “new features”
17:16 tango_      I'd say that the issue isn't the design by committee, it's who's on that committee
17:16 tango_      that being said, I do agree that having a design document would be a good idea
17:16 tango_      (also restructuring default so that it's considerably more sensible)
17:17 VanessaE    ^ the idea of making default into a "meta" mod is good
17:18 VanessaE    gives modders time to alter their projects to depend on only the bare essentials, before said "meta mod" ceases to exist.
17:18 VanessaE    but then that raises the question:
17:18 VanessaE    how would you divvy it all up?
17:18 tango_      I also honestly doubt that MTG is “holding MT back” for any real meaning of the expression
17:18 tango_      it's not like “oh my god we are so busy on MTG that we don't have time to work on MT”
17:19 rubenwardy  it's not that, it's the fact that MTG is so terrible and the reliance on it is bad
17:19 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> TBH builtin is crappier than MT as most of it hasn't been touched in a while
17:19 tango_      rubenwardy: how does that limit MT?
17:20 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> Why do all games start out with pulverize, clearinv etc. for example?
17:20 VanessaE    (I might tend to split things up by node type -- chests in some kind of "storage" mod, furnaces in a "smelting-cooking" mod along with the proposed blast furnaces, stone and stone-like in another, lighting in another, and so on)
17:20 tango_      VanessaE: and it should be devised in such a way that combining the elements doesn't require 200 lines of scripting
17:20 VanessaE    tango_: how do you mean?
17:21 rubenwardy  I prefer organisation based on dependencies rather than node types - but that's the same for those examples. Chests in `chests` and furnace in `furnace`
17:21 tango_      VanessaE: a lot of mods provide stuff done with different materials, but “assembling” that stuff is not easy
17:21 tango_      VanessaE: think e.g. stairs
17:21 VanessaE    oh and of course my basic_materials mod ought to be included in mtg ;)
17:21 rubenwardy  no
17:21 tango_      VanessaE: lol
17:21 rubenwardy  maybe if it lazy loaded resources
17:21 VanessaE    inb4 "it's another default"
17:22 VanessaE    rubenwardy: [meme: "Ackshually..."]
17:22 VanessaE    I had intended something along those lines but never got around to it
17:22 tango_      rubenwardy: OTOH, these kind of stress tests are good to point out deficiencies in the engine
17:22 rubenwardy  having a mod like that only fixes the problem for those materials. It also confuses players by having resources that are never used
17:22 VanessaE    and the materials are split into groups already
17:22 tango_      rubenwardy: so if anything overloading MTG would be a push to improve MT
17:22 tango_      rubenwardy: this is what I suggested, actually
17:23 VanessaE    rubenwardy: but can you be clear what you mean by "lazy" here?>
17:23 tango_      make MTG the testbed for all features, pushing the limits
17:23 rubenwardy  lazy loading is when you only load something if it is used
17:23 rubenwardy  so if no mods use plastic, then plastic isn't registered
17:23 tango_      rubenwardy: shouldn't that be an engine feature though?
17:23 VanessaE    rubenwardy: ok, but apart from mods depending on those resources via mod.conf, how else could it be done?
17:23 rubenwardy  yeah, exactly
17:24 rubenwardy  which is why I don't think basic_materials solves the problem well enough
17:24 rubenwardy  VanessaE:   API calls, like    basic_materials.use("plastic")
17:24 VanessaE    rubenwardy: I am willing to refine it but like others I kinda need a direction here..
17:24 rubenwardy  the engine should fix this anyway
17:24 VanessaE    but that's impossibel
17:24 VanessaE    le*
17:25 tango_      rubenwardy: the problem with that is chicken and egg
17:25 VanessaE    there's no way for the engine to just "activate" a new mod (or nodes/items) after it's up and running
17:25 tango_      you would have apii calls to require some usages, but also api calls to give some providers, but what if there's circular dependencies
17:26 tango_      rubenwardy: consider the case of a stairs mod that does “for every material, provide stairs of that material”
17:26 tango_      rubenwardy: the set of materials is undefined if you need registering
17:26 VanessaE    rubenwardy: either way, the best solution without such a thing would be to split-up basic_materials into several smaller mods, by material type.  That's trivial and I could do it in about 20 minutes.
17:27 tango_      or, you would need to define everything in call backs
17:27 tango_      VanessaE: well, you should do that anyway 8-)
17:27 VanessaE    but I'll only do that if the results are worth it e.g. if it ends up in mtg for example
17:27 tango_      and make each material group a mod option
17:27 VanessaE    tango_: just so.
17:28 VanessaE    they're grouped as metals, plastics, electrical, and misc at the moment
17:29 VanessaE    (though a few "misc" items like the gear and lock could be separated into say "mechanical")
17:30 tango_      (definitely)
17:30 VanessaE    (the concrete, stuff to make it, along with terracotta base, could go into another mod, "construction" maybe)
17:34 tango_      I'm not familiar with your mod, but I think one possibility per rubenwardy's suggestion, aside from mod configuration options to toggle individual classes or materials, would be to provide hooks for registering “providers” and “consumers” of the material
17:34 VanessaE    it's here if you care to look, https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=21000
17:34 tango_      so for example a “consumer” could say I want to use material X if possible, and it would be possible only if (1) it's enable and (2) there is some provider for it
17:35 tango_      but there's obviously the issue with mod registration order
17:35 VanessaE    well the engine has no concept of "providers"
17:35 VanessaE    closest is node groups
17:35 tango_      VanessaE: no that would be at your mod api level
17:35 VanessaE    if items could also have groups, that would solve the issue
17:36 tango_      as in: a mod says basic_material.register_provider("some material")
17:36 Sokomine    no :-( i don't think paramat wants to kill mtg. just has no time for it. it would be great if mtg could become a community effort. in my view it's a standard - a base to write mods for
17:36 tango_      and you know that that mod will have nodes or mechanism that providethe material
17:36 VanessaE    so you're suggesting basic_materials ought to work something like biome_lib or signs_lib then
17:36 tango_      Sokomine: if paramat has no time for it, then they shouldn't gatekeep changes to it
17:36 tango_      but this is not what they are doing
17:37 tango_      VanessaE: I'm not entirely sure how biome_lib or sign_lib work 8-P but I trust your word on it
17:37 Sokomine    the assumtion that any mod has to be written for *just one* particular "game" is very alien to me. my mods are not built and designed that way. they ought to be usable wherever the player/game designer wants to. i frown upon deliberate incompatibility
17:37 VanessaE    tango_: they're APIs other mods hook into to create new things, in essence.
17:38 tango_      VanessaE: that sounds more or less like what we're talking about then, yes
17:38 VanessaE    I could make basic_materials do that too, but I don't see much point in doing so when 99% of what's really wanted could be solved with finert-grained dependencies in the same way as we're talking of breaking-up the monopoly that is `default`.
17:42 Sokomine    what i truely want is a collection of easy-to-use-apis which are already there and can be used without having to install extra mods
17:44 daiNoZord   Aww crap I'm still here! Oh well for what it may have been worth - I wasn't just trying to learn the bare minimum to get a new "toy" for my world or whatever. I don't play games much. I can take or leave it. If I was interested in just "playing" then I can use any old mod, perhaps with some tweaking. My son plays though, he loves minetest and the time we spend building together, and I thought that it would be a great way
17:44 daiNoZord   to get into programming. Therefore I set myself small goals to understand things such as physics as they pertain to the game. That said, "lua.api.txt" is not a bible. It's not some great resource for a beginner, but it is a pretty crap place to signpost someone to when they're trying to get their head around an entirely new thing (Insult to injury when it's already open in one of about 20 browser tabs linked to the
17:44 daiNoZord   question). I get that this is not a "programming advice" room, but the subject appears to be "minetest", and I had hoped for "discussion" around the one or various ways to accomplish any arbitrary goal pertaining to that subject. As it is, however, I will formally request a ban, so I'm not tempted in future to change my mind and bother people any further with my "noob" nonsense, and subsequently I can focus my attention
17:44 daiNoZord   on better documented and resourced learning endeavours.
17:45 Sokomine    tango_: your stairs example works to some degree. usually such a mod would wait for a second or so and then iterate over the materials registered by other mods in the meantime and add stairs for them. a more convenient way to do this might be good
17:45 tango_      Sokomine: exactly
17:46 tango_      Sokomine: but this requires either a change in the way mods are loaded and/or provide features, or to do everything in callbacks
17:46 tango_      but then again this isn't an MTG issue per-se
17:46 tango_      although MTG could be used as testbed for this feature
17:53 tango_      Sokomine: the problem is that the dependency tree can be nontrivial to manage
17:54 tango_      Sokomine: I had such an example recently when adding some variants to moreblocks. doing all combos has exponential complexity growth
18:09 Sokomine    tango_: oh yes. moreblocks is very difficult in that regard
18:10 Sokomine    i'd rather like to see it...divided: into the blocks it provided and the stairsplus mod it comes with
18:11 Sokomine    "normal" mtg would then still have its stairs mod with its api. if you want more - like the nice stair shapes in moreblocks - you'd replace the mtg-stairs-api with the moreblocks-stairs-api - ideally without having to change any api calls
18:14 tango_      Sokomine: I see what you mean about the API thing
18:15 tango_      Sokomine: but that's actually the general idea behind mods
18:17 tango_      unrelated question, but does the latest MTG master work with 5.3 or is 5.4-dev-only?
18:18 MTDiscord   <11J​onathon> 5.4-dev i believe
18:19 MTDiscord   <09w​war> 5.4 isnt up for android
18:21 gerugri     hi all, i would set up a little server on my school for not so much clients (10-20)...someone has this tipe of experience?
18:23 gerugri     i mean, do i need some particular hardware or a normal pc is it enough?
18:24 VanessaE    tango_, rubenwardy anyway if it'll get basic_materials merged into mtg, I may be willing to make it into something more like an API, provided it still works with MT 5.3.0 and wouldn't need a ton of updates to the mods that depend on it.
18:26 tango_      VanessaE: given the current attitude from paramat, I wouldn't bother, if inclusion in MTG would be your only reason to do it
18:27 tango_      OTOH, working on the API so that mods can start to adapt to it might be a good idea anyway
18:27 tango_      and of course you can provide a config option (default true, for the time being) where all stuff gets registered anyway
18:34 VanessaE    tango_: well like I said, I kinda need a direction too
18:36 VanessaE    I mean sure, it's simple enough to have some mod that needs a material call a function to declare that need, but since everything has to be registered at startup anyway, about the mod could do is log all such calls, and then after a while, force-*UN*register everything that wasn't asked for
18:36 VanessaE    and that's....messy
18:36 VanessaE    about all the*
18:38 VanessaE    so until then, the most logical solution is to break it up into multiple smaller components like what I did with Homedecor ages ago, and gradually adapt mods that use it to be more fine-grained in their usag.
18:38 VanessaE    +e
18:39 VanessaE    come to think of it, are modpacks allowed within a game?
18:40 VanessaE    i.e. minetest_game/mods/basic_materials_modpack/basic_materials_[foo, bar, baz, ...]/
18:40 sfan5       gerugri: no, normal pc hardware is fine doesn't need to be particularily new either
18:43 * tango_    has no idea what a modpack is
18:44 tango_      VanessaE: I'm thinking that maybe registration could be delayed and made inside a callback, but I don't know if that's allowed
18:44 VanessaE    literally a handful of mods contained in a top-level folder, with an empty file 'modpack.txt' included.  that's it.
18:45 VanessaE    (though normally those mods are gathered together to form a theme of some kind)
18:55 specing     gerugri: it depends on the mods
18:55 specing     e.g. petz might require a 20 GHz machine at 20 clients
18:56 sfan5       no such thing ;)
18:57 specing     exactly
19:04 MTDiscord   <11I​hrFussel> Many mods just aren't optimized much for server gameplay...I disable some intensive parts of mods when there are too many lag spikes for example
19:07 MinetestBot 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: Revert "GUIFormSpecMenu: Shift+Click listring workaround for MacOS" 13f2c8c6b https://git.io/JLLiz (152020-12-14T19:05:24Z)
19:10 VanessaE    rubenwardy, tango_ would you guys mind filing an issue on basic_materials about all this?  maybe we can come to some consensus on a direction?  or at least, just so it's not forgotten
19:25 Sokomine    tango_: right now mods are mostly standalone things. apis exist, but it's rare that anyone but the creator ever uses them due to the libs not beeing provided with the "standard" game
19:29 tango_      Sokomine: but that's up to the mod creators though, isn't it? this isn't something for the minetest devs to decide
19:29 Sokomine    VanessaE: hm. a mt.requires("plastic") call...it sounds a bit complicated. might be easier to check i.e. recipes at registration and have such a call when there's additional need
19:29 tango_      Sokomine: for example for my experimental dowsing mod I did provide sort-of an API, but again it's up to me
19:29 Sokomine    tango_: the lib situation won't improve until they're more easily available
19:29 tango_      VanessaE: I tend not to open issues for stuff I don't personally use, sorry 8-P
19:30 Hawk777     TBH, a plethora of games scares me a bit, as an ordinary user. Right now I know that most mods work with MTG. If there are a lot of base games, sounds like an easy way to have no standardization, fragmentation, and then the mod community also fragments into mods that work on game A, mods that work on game B, and so on, and now I can’t have all the nice things at once. Seems like a lot of effort and a worse experience for players
19:30 Hawk777     e should that happen.
19:30 tango_      Hawk777: that has been discussed in the “freeze mtg” issue
19:33 VanessaE    tango_: do it anyway ;) your input could be useful.  Sokomine's too
19:38 Hawk777     Yeah, it was, but not AFAICT with any conclusion. AFAICT the answer is to keep MTG as a modding base, but then… what? Either all the mods build on top of MTG (in which case all the new fancy wonderful games that people want to replace it with are kind of fail because you can’t use any mods in them), or else one of the new wonderful fancy games wins (in which case the world is fragmented into the old mods that work with MTG, an
19:38 Hawk777     new mods that work with New Fancy Game, and they can’t be used together).
19:38 Hawk777     Even if the new games are just forks of MTG, as soon as they add a new feature that some mod might want to use, the same fragmentation happens.
19:40 Hawk777     If some fork of MTG wins the popularity contest and essentially all the mods work with it (either because they’re old, depend on MTG, and the fork retained compat, or because they’re new and built on the popular winner) then great, but until that winner emerges, feels like a mess.
19:41 Hawk777     Shrug. I don’t like forks in general for this reason.
19:42 Hawk777     Not like I have any choice, the devs will do what they do, just… scary.
19:42 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> I have recently started yet another fork
19:42 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> Just to merge my two PRs hehe
19:53 tango_      appguru: that makes two of us
19:54 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> what have you merged in your fork?
19:54 MTDiscord   <08a​ppguru> I might merge it too
19:55 tango_      https://github.com/Oblomov/minetest_game/tree/mtg-plus it's basically master plus my (currently two) branches intended for MTG plus a branch to add an icon with a big red plus and a rename of the game
19:56 tango_      https://github.com/Oblomov/minetest_game/commits/mtg-plus shows the branches merged
19:56 tango_      renewable lava and improved ladder placement
19:58 tango_      they are trivial, PR pending, paramat objected because according to them it's “new features”
19:58 tango_      but at least the PRs are not closed yet
20:01 Bombo       !tell Bombo /grantme all
20:01 MinetestBot You can tell that to yourself
20:02 Bombo       pffh
20:02 tango_      I mean the bot is not wrong 8-D
20:02 Bombo       thought it would tell me more ;)
20:03 tango_      Bombo: probably does the same for anyone who's already in chat
20:03 tango_      !tell Bombo look at this
20:03 MinetestBot tango_: I'll pass that on when Bombo is around
20:03 tango_      ah no
20:03 tango_      then it's stupid 8-D
20:03 tango_      I mean, it's a bot 8-)
20:04 tango_      maybe when you speak then?
20:23 tango_      not the biggest fan of squashed merges, TBH
21:07 rubenwardy  Calinou: I've fixed the release bug and added 2.1.0 to CDB
21:07 Calinou     thanks! :)
21:37 tango_      Calinou: about the glass texture: when you have a cube of glass, you cannot see “the other side” of the cube
21:37 tango_      is this a general rendering limitation of minetest, or specific to the (clean) glass texture?
21:38 tango_      it's funny because you can see the surface of the adjacent blocks, but not e.g. the opposite edge through the glass
21:38 tango_      not sure if I'm being clear
21:46 Calinou     tango_: it's a rendering limitation, it could be lifted by adding a new drawtype in C++ but it's not really worth it
21:46 Calinou     (one that has backface culling disabled)
21:47 Calinou     alternatively, you could have a nodebox that's a cube with very thin hollow faces
21:47 tango_      says you 8-D
21:47 tango_      (on the worthness)
21:47 Calinou     the nodebox approach would only work for leaves, not glass since you want adjacent faces to disappear
21:47 tango_      not entirely sure I understand
21:48 tango_      doesn't the disappearing or not depend on that infamous client-side option?
21:48 tango_      oh but still it would need to be supported
21:48 tango_      hm
22:02 Gustavo6046 Do you think Lua lacking any sort of type-checking or safety features whatsoever could be a detriment and an inconvenience to modders?
22:04 sfan5       perhaps
22:05 Gustavo6046 Lua is tedious to write, difficult to debug, and convoluted. It's kind of obsolete nowadays, which shows in the form of its community slowly shrinking -- it's noticeably less active today than it was ages past. It is the main reason I proposed an alternative JS API. JS does almost everything Lua does, and it's both easier to write and to fix, and it's also easier to understand.
22:05 Gustavo6046 JS is also easy to embed, thanks to projects like Duktape and QuickJS which are basically small and portable JavaScript VMs written in C.
22:07 rubenwardy  Lua  has safety features - it has stronger typing than JS, and there's LuaCheck
22:08 sfan5       JS "we know what the programmer meant" dynamic typing is worse than Lua's. I contest the "easier to understand" point too, core language features of both are pretty simple. And "difficult to write" or "convoluted" are subjective.
22:08 rubenwardy  I like JS, and it's awesome with typescript
22:08 sfan5       more importantly, how's the speed of embeddable js interpreters compared to luajit?
22:08 rubenwardy  V8 has beaten LuaJIT for many years
22:08 rubenwardy  not sure how large that is
22:09 sfan5       I know, but V8 doesn't seem realistically embeddable
22:10 rubenwardy  I'd be surprised given how browsers embed it. I'd also be surprised if it's not massive
22:25 Gustavo6046 rubenwardy: Lua has no typing at all
22:25 Gustavo6046 I don't know what you mean
22:25 Gustavo6046 And V8 is not very embeddable
22:25 Gustavo6046 Luajit is superfast, so that's a plus
22:25 rubenwardy  False, it has booleans, numbers, functions, tables, and userdata
22:26 Gustavo6046 But quickjs offers pretty decent performance, for a portable embedded language interpreter anyway
22:26 rubenwardy  There's less weird casting like in JS - you can't add an array to a number
22:26 rubenwardy  That makes it have stronger typing
22:26 rubenwardy  It's just not statically typed
22:26 Gustavo6046 rubenwardy: I think JS weird casting is irrelevant
22:26 Gustavo6046 it's more of a quirk than a point that matters
22:26 Gustavo6046 If you ask me, anyway
22:27 Gustavo6046 And Lua tables and userdata are kind of idiosyncrasies
22:27 Gustavo6046 I prefer JS's object syntax, with the C-like dot notation
22:28 Gustavo6046 What, why can't I add diacritics to vowels in chat or in Travelnet box names?
22:28 Gustavo6046 If I use deadkeys, it looks like "^a", not â
22:29 Gustavo6046 and if I try pasting (at least in the latter case), it just brings up an abnormally big space
22:31 sfan5       input bug with irrlicht likely
22:37 Gustavo6046 Ah
22:37 Gustavo6046 Also, I see what seems to be a desert -- big, relatively flat plains of desert sand with a massive layer of desert stone underneath --, but no cacti :(
22:44 Hawk777     I don’t see why it makes any sense for the core devs to spend a zillion hours integrating a Javascript engine when any decent programmer can learn a language they don’t know without too much trouble, and personally I found Lua to be a particularly easy language to learn. I’d rather they spend their limited time on something with a higher bang-for-buck ratio.
22:50 Gustavo6046 Hawk777: it's easy to integrate, depending on the "engine"
22:50 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Zughy -> 03minetest/minetest: Semi-transparent background for nametags (#10152) 134d41ed0 https://git.io/JLtWN (152020-12-14T22:49:30Z)
22:50 Gustavo6046 and Lua is troubling, yes
22:50 Gustavo6046 It is fine to learn but not fine for larger codebases
22:50 sfan5       another scripting backend is not that hard to implement in itself but it opens up quite some trouble over who gets to handle a callback and other ordering issues
22:51 Hawk777     You are also proposing that the maintenance work related to scripting engines be doubled, because there are two of them. Unless you propose replacing Lua rather than adding in addition, in which case you have just broken every single game and mod that existed anywhere ever.
22:52 Hawk777     I also personally opine that Javascript is unsuitable for larger codebases because I happen to like static typing, and neither Lua nor JS have that.
22:53 Hawk777     So now you get to endlessly bikeshed which language should be added.
22:53 tango_      obviously everything should be done in C
22:53 tango_      what's with this fancy smancy C++ thingie in the core
22:53 tango_      psssht
22:53 tango_      OK seriously though, why isn't there something like a brick wall
22:54 tango_      I mean the red clay bricks
22:54 tango_      only slabs and stairs?
22:54 sfan5       I can assure bricks exist
22:54 sfan5       assure you*
22:54 tango_      bicks of course
22:54 tango_      I have plenty of brick blocks
22:55 tango_      but I can only do slabs and stairs with them, not the poles
22:55 tango_      not even with moreblocks it seems 8-(
22:55 sfan5       hmm that's a good point
22:56 tango_      hm but I can do brick block panels with moreblocks
22:56 tango_      hmmmmmmm
22:56 tango_      damn I have to decide what to use to build my fancy house
22:56 tango_      stone bricks are too thick visually
22:57 tango_      (ditto sandstone bricks etc)
22:57 tango_      BTW I hate non-renewable materials
23:00 blaise      so, can we play minetest using google cardboard?
23:00 specing     Sounds proprietary
23:00 blaise      eh, using a phone via usb as another display ?
23:01 tango_      does MT support VR at all?
23:01 tango_      I don't think so
23:01 blaise      it does...
23:01 tango_      it does?
23:01 blaise      it has support for several means of 3d..
23:01 blaise      even the old red/blue shift
23:02 tango_      really, how do you enable it?
23:02 blaise      it's in the video settings
23:02 sfan5       3d video output is not all that's needed for VR
23:03 blaise      to support using split view VR for use with the widely documented cardboard VR headset's that anyone can build and use with a cellphone, there is a vivecraft mod on curseforge..
23:04 blaise      google opensourced their cardboard project quite some time ago
23:06 blaise      and here is an opensource project called phone VR https://github.com/ShootingKing-AM/PhoneVR as an alternative to iVRy, VRidge, and others..
23:08 blaise      quite nifty.. and rather fun.. :)
23:13 Helenah     How do I debug why wheat wont grow all of a sudden?
23:18 MTDiscord   <09s​rinivas> also; > I'd be surprised given how browsers embed it. I'd also be surprised if it's not massive in this age of increasingly common 1 tb drives, does another say 50 mb even matter?
23:19 tango_      Helenah: sun + wet soil afaik is the only requirement
23:19 tango_      Helenah: are they in the shadow
23:19 tango_      oh wtf walls can only be made of cobblestone?
23:22 MTDiscord   <09s​rinivas> no?
23:22 MTDiscord   <09s​rinivas> last i checked there were other bricks too
23:22 specing     Helenah: heh you look at what changed since it last grew
23:23 tango_      srinivas: I mean at the actual wall node
23:23 tango_      srinivas: as far as I can see it's only cobblestone
23:23 tango_      all others you have to do it with non-connecting 1x1x1 nodes
23:24 tango_      unless I'm missing something
23:24 tango_      ah, super duper walls
23:31 blaise      lmao