Time  Nick        Message
05:04 MinetestBot 02[git] 04paramat -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix sky bugs when using sun or moon textures (#7918) 13dcf58a3 https://git.io/fpolF (152018-12-01T05:04:13Z)
09:02 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Gael-de-Sailly -> 03minetest/minetest: Added pitch fly mode (#7817) 13327bad2 https://git.io/fpo0j (152018-12-01T09:01:32Z)
15:59 Genshin     Hello gentlemen
16:08 Genshin     I managed to create a numerical player leveling system for PvE on minetest.
19:31 Xiong       On VE's suggestion I switched to v6. New world, I spawned one chunk away from a rubber tree... the same tree I couldn't locate in two days' search in a v7 world.
19:32 rubenwardy  what was the problem that made you switch to v6?
19:32 Xiong       Also papyrus, jungle grass, clay within easy reach.
19:32 rubenwardy  ahh I remember
19:32 rubenwardy  yeah, the issue will be with technic not v7 in particular
19:33 Xiong       Actually I had thrown up on rubber and gimmed a sapling. It was lack of sulfur.
19:33 Xiong       The issue, I'm sure, lies between v7 and technic.
19:35 Xiong       I exercised prudence and went whizzing around underground before clipping my wings and punching trees. Found sulfur without too much trouble
19:39 Xiong       I'm back to minetest after a lapse of some years but played heavily back when; and I've seen much. Today I saw something utterly new to me: a sea chunk genned under while I swam for clay... and was a huge lava lake. Hiss! Now about 5 mapblocks of obsidian seabed.
19:41 Xiong       This at -22. So v6 is different alright.
19:43 Shara       I'm pretty sure there are lots of v7 servers running technic without trouble. I know I've even found sulfur on some of them... but there also seem to be lots of alternative versions of technic.
19:43 Xiong       No multiplayer practical on Android, Shara.
19:44 Xiong       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7525
19:45 Shara       I'm not sure how that relates to issues with a mod on a certain mapgen.
19:45 Xiong       I guess I could play without chat but that will only lead to injured feelings.
19:45 Shara       I mentioned there being servers where it seems to work fine, only because it's odd you'd then have a problem.
19:46 Xiong       I took your comment as a suggestion.
19:46 Shara       Not really. I'm mostly curious why it works for other people but not for you.
19:46 Xiong       Dunno.
19:48 Xiong       I imagine they can be made to work. If I run a public server, I'm likely to fiddle with my setup. I want my guests happy.
19:49 Shara       How deep have you gone when looking for it?
19:50 Xiong       In fact I'd want to play the world a bit, maybe get a couple buddies to try it, iron out any issues, then zap and fixed-seed restart.
19:51 Xiong       Looking for sulfur? Or rubber? Found neither. Did find one small stand of papyrus toward the end of Day 2.
19:52 Shara       Sulfur.
19:53 Xiong       Then I flew around up top for rubber, about a thousand blocks each way; and flew under for sulfur a thousand down. Nasty business that.
19:54 Xiong       Current world, sulfur in 15 min at -160... near spawn, too.
19:54 Shara       Setting up a little test on v7, because I'm curious
19:57 Xiong       Well, so many random numbers, all tests are inconclusive. I may have just been unlucky. That world, zinc everywhere. This world, no zinc at all yet... but I saw 2 nodes across a wide lava lake at -100. So dunno. Good enough for me.
19:58 Shara       Well, it's hardly inconclusive if I start a game and find it :)
20:01 Xiong       Well, conclusive of what? I expect every mapgen is likely to turn up everything possible, sooner or later. The question is: Will some install comprising X, Y, Z... mods, mapgen, settings... provide sufficient resources before my patience runs out?
20:02 Shara       Of whether they appear in that mapgen... or not.
20:02 Xiong       Technic will always be a stress test because it demands so much of so many things.
20:02 Shara       And first rubber tree found, so that's certainly working fine.
20:03 Xiong       So... how does your setup differ from mine?
20:03 Shara       At a guess, maybe you didn't find the right biome.
20:04 Shara       v6 is unique in that it doesn't use the biome system the other mapgens use... so v6 mixes everything in together.
20:04 Xiong       Studied up, searched hard. On foot, boat, and finally flew
20:04 Shara       In v7 (and other mapgens), you will need to find the biome things actually appear in
20:05 Xiong       Yes but... what exactly do you think I said?
20:05 Shara       You seem to think the mod has an issue as far as v7 goes.
20:05 Shara       But there is no "issue with technic" as you claimed.
20:05 Shara       At least not for this.
20:06 Xiong       That's my suspicion. And... finding a tree doesn't contradict that.
20:06 Shara       So the fact that I, and very many other people, can find these resources, but you can't, means the mod has an issue?
20:06 Xiong       Nothing is that clear cut.
20:07 Shara       Your statement was.
20:07 Xiong       Which?
20:07 Shara       That technic has an issue.
20:08 Xiong       Never said that.
20:08 Shara       (7:33:46 PM) Xiong: The issue, I'm sure, lies between v7 and technic.
20:09 Xiong       "The issue, I'm sure, lies between v7 and technic." That's as much to say as, neither package is to blame.
20:10 Shara       Wanted to try and help you, since it seems likely there is something else involved, but since you seem convinced your assumption is right, will leave you to it.
20:11 Xiong       A tree grows near our homes; the leaves are a nuisance. We look. The tree is on our mutual property line. I'm not at fault, you're not. Nature's fault, the gods' fault, bad luck. I don't care really.
20:12 Xiong       What I said was barely an assumption at all. I just assumed no person involved was evil.
20:12 Shara       I don't know what "evil" has to do with this
20:14 Xiong       Nothing! So... what help did you think I need?
20:14 Xiong       My current world is currently working for me.
20:15 Shara       I've already given up anyway.
20:15 Xiong       Well, next time, please ask first, save effort.
20:16 Shara       Xiong: I made an observation that you misinterpreted!
20:16 Xiong       ?
20:16 Shara       I don't need your permission to speak in public channel.
20:17 Xiong       Uh... of course not. I'm just sorry to have misled you into thinking I was in dome sort of jam. I was, but that was several worlds ago.
20:18 Shara       Then don't worry about it and just have fun playing :)
20:18 Xiong       Ah... that's what I've been?
20:18 Xiong       What did I say to set you off?
20:19 Shara       Maybe you could just let it drop.
20:21 Xiong       Didn't know I'd picked anything up. Sorry. I came here to report my sighting of undersea lava; and incidentally my success with v6. Should I have not?
20:23 Shara       You identified a potential issue with a mod. I was curious so looked into it. I find no issueThen you start telling me I should ask before speaking.
20:23 Shara       Yet you won't stop asking me questions.
20:25 Xiong       I'm not trying to insult you. I suggested, kindly, you ask me... if it crosses your mind... if I have a problem... before trying to help me with it. That's not to infringe on whatever freedoms you may expect. It's just an idea.
20:26 Xiong       I've wasted much of my life trying to help others... when either they don't think they have a problem or I don't know what they think it is.
20:27 Shara       I don't need instruction, kindly or otherwise, about when I should help people. I already said I was curious about the "issue".
20:28 Shara       And if you fee trying to help people is a waste of your life, that says more about you than about anything else.
20:28 Xiong       But... this isn't a matter of objective fact, is it?
20:28 epoch       Hi.
20:29 Shara       We're done talking, Xiong. Please leave me alone.
20:29 Xiong       I try harder than ever to be helpful. But now I target my efforts better. That's all.
20:29 Xiong       A little better, not much.
20:29 Xiong       Hi epoch.
20:30 epoch       would minetest:// links be handy?
20:32 Xiong       Explain?
20:33 epoch       like, put <a href="minetest://justtest.duckdns.org:30000/">join justtest in minetest!</a> in a webpage.
20:33 rubenwardy  I personally like the idea of a smart link for Minetest, but I'm unsure on implementation
20:33 epoch       then some link handler would run minetest using --address and --go and --port
20:34 epoch       I have one. :>
20:34 rubenwardy  like:     https://play.minetest.net/justtest.duckdns.org/30000/
20:34 epoch       aww
20:34 rubenwardy  then it would open in Minetest or show the download page if no Minetest found
20:35 rubenwardy  (it would do this by checking schems, so minetest:// would still exist under the hood)
20:35 rubenwardy  would require JS though :(
20:36 Xiong       For more street cred, use XML.
20:36 epoch       now sure how a browser would check for if minetest is installed
20:36 rubenwardy  schemas
20:36 rubenwardy  for detection, at least. Could just show the minetest:// link if JS is disabled
20:37 epoch       I don't have minetest:// registered in my browser because all of them go to some other program that isn't as bulky as a web-browser
20:37 rubenwardy  https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24571548/javascript-how-to-detect-if-the-custom-url-scheme-is-available-or-not-availabl
20:38 rubenwardy  it's a shame that there's no apparent standard for this
20:38 Xiong       Sorry I vote no. The concept stalls or breeds and spreads like kudzu. Next, I'm shopping for shoes and fall down a rabbit hole into a fizzy pebble game with an oversexed Alice is trying to sell me anxiety meds or cars.
20:41 epoch       The thing I have is a program like xdg-open
20:41 epoch       which is what a lot of linuxes will default to opening urls with
20:41 epoch       well, if it is started by something other than a browser that thinks it knows better
20:42 Xiong       I don't much care for anything added to basic web technology since the mid 90s. It's not hypertext anymore; it's eyeballs, clickbait, walled gardens, and analytics.
20:43 epoch       yeah.
20:43 epoch       in the bad parts of the internet anyway.
20:44 epoch       if minetest is going to be ran with --go in some automated way I think it would be best to have some way of keeping passwords out of the argument list.
20:44 epoch       I guess this is going to cause someone to try to make minetest ask for a password if one isn't supplied.
20:45 rubenwardy  yes, that would be the correct implementation
20:45 Xiong       People often ask me if ABC or XYZ is a dangerous neighborhood. I say, SF is a City; all neighborhoods are somewhat dangerous. Union Square is much riskier than Lower Haight
20:45 epoch       The thing I have just asks for a password if it isn't in a url, then passed it to minetest using --password-file <(ask pass)
20:46 epoch       passes*
20:46 Xiong       No passwords!
20:46 Xiong       Passwords suck.
20:47 epoch       which is why the thing I made first checks secret-service for a minetest password for the url and uses that if it exists. :>
20:47 * epoch     clicks link. goes straight to minetest server.
20:48 rubenwardy  https://www.troyhunt.com/heres-why-insert-thing-here-is-not-a-password-killer/
20:48 rubenwardy  Xiong ^
20:48 rubenwardy  relevant
20:48 Xiong       Authentication should be transparent to the user. I see a friend, he doesn't ask for the secret word before I'm allowed to get a beer.
20:48 epoch       Xiong: have you heard of ident?
20:48 epoch       requires trusting the host first though.
20:49 Xiong       Trust nobody!
20:49 epoch       heh
20:49 epoch       is there authentication without trust?
20:50 rubenwardy  you can't trust IP addresses
20:50 epoch       not even if they're inside ipsec?
20:50 rubenwardy  not sure about that
20:50 Xiong       Public key shows the way.
20:53 Xiong       Ideally, no trust should ever be given. I exchange with you... stuff: words, cash, services, info. Over time we gain confidence in each other. The only thing each needs to know is who the other is and that the exchange is secure against tampering.
20:54 Xiong       Even so, nothing's perfect!
20:55 johnnyjoy   Anyone running minetestserver on Alpine Linux 3.8 in a container using the Postgresql backend?
20:56 Xiong       Minetest requires no password system. On first join we can swap keys and later, verify. No user interaction needed.
20:57 epoch       but then you need to keep your keys with you if you ever want to connect
20:57 epoch       and if you lose your key you lose the account
20:57 epoch       which is why I still use passwords for ssh
20:58 Xiong       But that's always true. Lose your keys, lose your car.
20:58 epoch       car keys can be remade
20:58 epoch       or you can hotwire a car
20:58 johnnyjoy   A nice option would be to allow some servers to direct clients to use https based auth using the built in curl.
20:59 epoch       heh. make minetest use pam authentication modules?
20:59 johnnyjoy   Imagine if an MT client could leverage an existing user base, like the minetest forums for authing users.
20:59 epoch       (dunno how it'd work for windows users though)
20:59 rubenwardy  you could already do that by creating accounts from a web interface only
21:00 rubenwardy  but the issue would be directing users from the game to the interface
21:00 rubenwardy  you could instead create accounts on the website when creating a user in game
21:00 Xiong       The real key to a car is your passport. Lose everything else and you can identify yourself in court, get your car back.
21:00 rubenwardy  so bidirectional account creation
21:00 epoch       are there custom login-failed messages?
21:00 rubenwardy  Don't think so
21:00 johnnyjoy   I though that MT could only use SRP passwords?
21:01 Xiong       Lose your passport, you may have the devil of a time establishing identity.
21:01 epoch       I don't have a passport.
21:02 Xiong       Okay epoch so... how can you prove you're you?
21:02 rubenwardy  well, to log in to the account on the web when it was created in-game, you'd need to set a password to unlock it
21:02 rubenwardy  but for the other direction, you could just do SRP
21:02 rubenwardy  wait
21:02 rubenwardy  nevermind
21:02 rubenwardy  well, to log in to the account on the web when it was created in-game, the server would just do SRP again
21:02 rubenwardy  for the other direction, it would do SRP on the password
21:02 rubenwardy  this kinda ruins SRP though
21:03 johnnyjoy   SRP is important when using unencrypted UPS.
21:04 johnnyjoy   Sorry UDP
21:04 Xiong       Fun but I gotta go scout clay... or no alloys! Bye.
21:04 johnnyjoy   However is excludes existing communities.
21:05 johnnyjoy   There should be an option for https based auth.
21:10 epoch       --password-file <(curl https://the.minetest/server/givemekey.cgi?user=derp)
21:13 epoch       do you mean with a client certificate?
23:26 paramat     !tell Xiong mgv6 is a very boring mapgen. the problem lies with technic and moretrees not yet being updated for the newer mapgens (all of them except mgv6). in mgv7 you can make biomes smaller to have papyrus and junglegrass closer, and clay is everywhere
23:26 MinetestBot paramat: I'll pass that on when Xiong is around
23:40 paramat     !tell Xiong 1000 nodes is a very small distance, only 4 mins walk. gameplay is better when you don't immediately find resources, gives it adventure and challenge. mgv6 has no hills higher than y = 47, no rivers, lacks most biomes and flora
23:40 MinetestBot paramat: I'll pass that on when Xiong is around