Time Nick Message 00:44 XtremeHacker Hey rubenwardy, I get this error "mods/infoblock/init.lua:5: '(' expected near 'minetest'" when trying to use the node meta formspecs example here: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/chapters/formspecs.html 00:44 XtremeHacker Wait, maybe It's because my mod is in a non MTG (my own custom) subgame?... 00:45 rubenwardy what is line 5? 00:46 XtremeHacker minetest.register_node("mymod:rightclick", { 00:50 rubenwardy what's before that? 00:50 XtremeHacker Just a couple of variables I declared 00:51 XtremeHacker Oh, I had a function registration, without end. 00:51 XtremeHacker :facepalm: 07:39 wilkgr Nope, forums still don't like me :/ 07:41 Raven262 Who cares about the forums anyway? xD 08:29 IhrFussel player:set_sky() stacks? For example if one mod sets the sky and then another does too, the sky will NOT be the default one again if one of them sets the sky as "regular" again...at least that's what I'm experiencing 08:32 paramat IhrFussel what commit is your engine on? and are you using 'get sky'? 08:34 IhrFussel Here's what happened: My server starts events depending on the ingame time and chance ... at 21:00 the sky turned red at 22:30 the sky was supposed to turn gray (raining) but instead it went back to regular...when the "red sky event" tried to revert it back to regular it turned gray instead and after rain was over it turned back to normal sky 08:34 IhrFussel My server was compiled Apr 24 and no I just use player_set_sky() inside minetest.get_connected_players() loops 08:35 paramat ok 08:36 IhrFussel paramat, does it sound too complicated? 08:38 paramat no, i agree it should not act that way 08:40 paramat best link your relevant code in a new issue 08:43 paramat the bug i introduced in get sky was added 3rd of May so it's not that 08:54 paramat maybe i'll try running 2 mods to see 10:09 noxvis0 Hey 10:10 wilkgr Hi 10:10 wilkgr ..and gn o/ 10:11 noxvis0 How to get one of this freaking red flowers, I want to build a bed 10:11 noxvis0 I generated 4 worlds trying to find this annoying nodes 10:13 noxvis0 Why cant I use any type of flower, I have yellow ones, and blue ones, purple and orange.... but no red hell 10:13 noxvis0 Why cant I use red mushrooms to create that St* dye 10:27 noxvis0 Can someone tell me why you screw the gameplay up that hard? 10:34 * noxvis0 sent a long message: noxvis0_2017-05-25_10:34:36.txt 10:46 MinetestBot 02[git] 04paramat -> 03minetest/minetest: Mgv6 mudflow: Remove decoration if 'dirt with grass' below flows away… 135b33863 https://git.io/vH3t9 (152017-05-25T10:46:34Z) 10:46 MinetestBot 02[git] 04red-001 -> 03minetest/minetest: Close formspec on client shutdown. (#5811) 132f291e6 https://git.io/vH3t7 (152017-05-25T10:46:24Z) 10:52 paramat noxvis0 i agree a certain dye should not be needed for a bed, since red flowers can be distant 10:52 paramat i think this has been discussed, maybe a new issue shoud be opened 10:57 noxvis0 I will do it later,im on mobile right now 10:58 noxvis0 paramat: dude, I have more diamond than red flowers right now. (Two) 10:59 Raven262 Well that is something to be proud of. 10:59 paramat ok 11:00 Raven262 You know that you can plant them on the dirt with grass and then they can replicate? 11:03 paramat there is an existing issue that could be re-opened https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/475 best to do that because a new one would be a duplicate 11:04 paramat i'll reopen it then you can add your comments later 11:04 IhrFussel What's the most efficient way to choose a random pos NEARBY the player? 11:07 paramat math.random() within a defined radius? you mean a surface pos? 11:08 IhrFussel paramat, it is supposed to determine where the monster spawns so it should be right next to the player but 2-3 nodes away 11:10 paramat minetest.find_nodes_under_air()? 11:11 paramat lua_api.txt under 'environment access' 11:12 IhrFussel The nodes wouldn't matter it could also be mid-air... right now I simply hard coded the spawn pos local ppos = player:getpos() local fmpos = {} fmpos.x = math.floor(ppos.x+2) fmpos.y = math.floor(ppos.y+0.5) fmpos.z = math.floor(ppos+2) 11:14 IhrFussel paramat, is it ok to just define random numbers and use those as "distance"? Or would that be slow? 11:16 paramat minetest.find_nodes_in_area_under_air(minp, maxp, nodenames) uses engine code so might be the most efficient 11:17 IhrFussel But how would I get the radius? I only have one pos (where the player is) 11:17 paramat just pick a random entry from the table 11:18 paramat minp = ppos - {3, 3, 3} ... 11:19 paramat ppos is player pos 11:19 Krock look through the returned positions and use something like: if vector.length(pos) > 2 and vector.length(pos) < current_shortest then current_shortest = vector.length(pos) ..cache position.. end 11:19 paramat oh i see 11:19 Krock that's how you can find the most close to the player 11:20 Krock downside of this is that C++ does hell many checks to generate this table and you'll go through the whole thing again to get the best position. Ensure that this stuff isn't called like all milisecond 11:21 paramat yeah search through the table and calculate the distance for each, if 2-3 nodes away add to another table, then randomly pick one? 11:22 IhrFussel That sounds very complicated...my task is pretty simple...I'll post a pastebin one sec 11:23 Krock or local result_index_taken = math.ceil(math.random() * #nodes_in_area_positions) and then get that calculated index 11:23 paramat or i guess, pick a random pos, chaeck for a suitable distance, then if air use that 11:23 paramat *check 11:23 paramat and loop that 11:24 Krock the problem is that you want the node in a distance no less than 2. If you remove that from your desired final result, simply get a random index from the returned table 11:25 Krock as a side effect that monstery may directly spawn inside the player 11:25 Krock *monsters 11:26 IhrFussel https://pastebin.com/Lh3VxfLJ 11:26 Krock where did all the indents go? 11:28 paramat you might spawn a mob inside a solid node 11:29 Krock 1 moment.. coding... 11:29 IhrFussel So I should probably check what node the pos has and if it's not air I try to + 1 or - 1 and check the node again? 11:33 paramat you should check for air above air or however big a space is needed for the mob 11:35 Krock https://pastebin.com/5hAvXVdU 11:35 Krock untested. I have no clue what this function returns 11:36 Krock ^ 'this function' = minetest.find_nodes_in_area_under_air 11:39 IhrFussel Krock, wouldn't that code be pretty heavy? I mean it runs for every players online per second 11:39 Krock yes it is. but I don't see any other way. You could also get all "air" nodes in this area but at the end it will need about the same amount of calculations 11:40 Krock ABMs basically do the same, just on each node instead of each player 11:46 paramat that code would not keep mob spawns at 2-3 nodes away though. you could loop through randomly selected positions and calculate the distance until you get a suitable one 11:46 Krock yes sure. but the speed.. 12:00 paramat yeah, but it was asked that the mob is spawned 2-3 nodes away 12:01 paramat inside the player would not be good :] 12:03 twoelk been there, had a fright, ran away 12:15 IhrFussel Is it "a monster spawned nearby you!" or "a monster spawned near you!" ? Not sure 12:15 paramat near 12:16 paramat trust me i'm english :] 12:16 IhrFussel Haha ok thanks :D 12:16 rubenwardy it's either "spawned nearby" or "spawned near you" 12:16 rubenwardy :) 12:17 paramat yeah, 'a monster spawned nearby' is ok 12:20 IhrFussel Well..which one sounds better? 12:20 IhrFussel Adding "you" is maybe better since the monster will spawn near the player then 12:31 paramat 'nearby' implies that it is near the player, and is shorter, i think that sounds better too 12:32 Krock "spawned monster nearby a you" 12:33 IhrFussel Haha xP ok I chose "A monster spawned nearby!" thanks all, gtg now see you later 14:44 MinetestBot 02[git] 04nerzhul -> 03minetest/minetest: Enhance ABM performance a little bit by removing two std::set copy (#… 134d5ce84 https://git.io/vH3oU (152017-05-25T14:43:55Z) 14:47 EDAKIRI VanessaE: 15:25 DS-minetest how has the menu music file in /sounds/ to be called? 15:32 twoelk main_menu.ogg 15:32 DS-minetest thanks :D 15:33 BBmine Oh, when's Minetest 0.4.16 supposed to come out? 15:36 red-001 april 4 15:36 red-001 june 4 15:36 DS-minetest * BBmine has quit () 15:37 DS-minetest !tell BBmine date for minetest 0.4.16 : june 4 15:37 MinetestBot DS-minetest: yeah, sure, whatever 15:39 DS-minetest hm, can i also add files for ingame music? 16:28 zyabin101 Okay, I added the grass block to composite, and now I have no sign of it in none of v5, v7 and valleys mapgens. :sob: 16:30 zyabin101 I put node definitions in one file per node, along with that node's "purposes in life": aliases for MTG compat, mapgen, et cetera 16:31 zyabin101 Maybe is it because of that? or does mapgen [snowed] dirt [with grass] depend on something? 17:10 paramat zyabin101 did you add your new grass node to the biome registrations? 17:11 zyabin101 I don't have any biomes defined. o_o 17:15 paramat ok see MTGame mods/default/mapgen.lua for examples 17:15 paramat so you're making a subgame i guess 17:15 zyabin101 bang 17:16 zyabin101 correct 17:17 paramat you could copy paste all the biomes, then replace each node with your subgames nodes 17:20 zyabin101 That needs re-licensing my code to LGPL (since copying code from MTG requires following the LGPL license) 17:20 zyabin101 I have MIT :/ 17:26 paramat ok you can register your own biomes by learning from MTG code, more fun to create your own 17:27 zyabin101 :D 17:55 Grandolf hi 17:56 Grandolf why not add a server that its purpose would be to allow players to vote on updates that would be disputed 17:56 red-001 Grandolf, the glicht that allowed you to climb using sneak got removed while re-working the sneak code to get rid of the damage evasion glicth 17:56 red-001 then got re-added in two diffrent ways 17:56 Grandolf ic 17:57 red-001 1. A new version that doesn't allow you to avoid damage 17:57 red-001 2. the old code with all the issues it had 17:57 red-001 Grandolf, we do that on the forum 17:58 zyabin101 @Grandolf idea: make a serv that decides on *any* change democratically 17:58 zyabin101 even man-made chunk updates 17:58 Grandolf i suppose it would b a pain 17:59 red-001 see https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17091 17:59 zyabin101 "Thanks for helping us support Chaostest! Your edits are only visible to you until they are voted on." 17:59 red-001 zyabin101, lol 18:00 red-001 there is a 100% chance someone will use bots to hijack voting on that sort of server 18:01 zyabin101 @red-001 then do a vote against bots...? 18:01 * zyabin101 is muttering... 18:02 zyabin101 [then bots will hijack the vote so it is in favour of bots...] 18:02 zyabin101 Mission. Blockin'. Accomplished. 18:02 zyabin101 (no offense) 18:04 Grandolf i meant an ingame server, not an irc 18:05 paramat Grandolf details are here https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17397 18:05 Grandolf yes, looking at it 18:07 paramat heh we don't do democracy here, it would be a disaster 18:08 Grandolf maybe 18:08 slemonide Yeah, we practice anarcho-communism here. 18:08 twoelk devocrazy? 18:09 Grandolf solution seems reasonable enough too 18:11 * twoelk remembers he has to change quite a few drop shafts on several servers/maps to be usefull again :-( 18:13 paramat we have a sort of benign dictatorship :] 18:14 red-001 lol 19:23 IhrFussel ARE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS guys?? You plan to DROP Android support? You plan to FORCE ~ 75% of the userbase to switch to 3rd party apps that contain ADS and are mainly OUTDATED? 19:25 IhrFussel Some of them don't even support all features the official build supports...are you crazy?? 19:26 Krock IhrFussel, already replied on this particular issue? I think the player's opinion could be helpful there 19:27 IhrFussel Krock, I planned to...honestly I'm still recovering from the shock moment I just had when I browsed the github issues page 19:28 paramat there's no plan yet, just a suggestion for consideration 19:28 Calinou dude, the Android support sucked back in the day and still sucks today 19:28 Calinou the UI is **unusable** 19:28 Calinou and I mean iut 19:28 Calinou it* 19:28 Calinou the controls stink. 19:28 paramat most android users don't use the official app 19:28 IhrFussel To even CONSIDER it is stupid IMO 19:28 Calinou the server list is impossible to use. 19:28 Calinou I am talking about the official app here 19:28 swift110 hey all 19:29 Calinou Minetest never had mobile in mind 19:29 Calinou so let's just drop it… 19:29 swift110 lol I tried the android port and it was interestin g 19:29 paramat consideration is never stupid 19:30 paramat it depends on if we can find someone willing to maintain it, we've been waiting a year 19:30 IhrFussel The UI is not unusable...I can play just fine on my phone, all NECESSARY features are there...NOTHING locked behind a f*cking PAYWALL...NOTHING distracted by bs ads 19:32 nore Well I think any developer to help us on the Android port would be very welcome :) 19:32 IhrFussel The Android app evolved GREATLY in the recent years...I installed it back when Minetest was at version 0.4.12 ... and the UI and features improved A LOT since then...many Android bugs were solved 19:32 paramat my suggestion was to choose the best app and call it 'officially recommended', or maybe encourage an app author to create a new app that becomes 'officially recommended', maybe they could essentially fork from current MT 19:33 IhrFussel Okay let's find a 3rd party client app that contains all features, has no ads, no IAP and promises to NEVER change that 19:35 paramat hmm probably doesn't exist at the moment :] 19:36 IhrFussel No because almost all Android devs that clone the game are GREEDY as heck 19:37 sfan5 dropping android support is a bad idea 19:37 sfan5 even if android support sucks it should be kept 19:38 IhrFussel sfan5, why do you keep saying "it sucks" just because there are quite a few bugs that haven't been solved yet or the UI is not super clean? Is the PC UI PERFECT? 19:39 sfan5 the ui is particlarily bad 19:40 IhrFussel It is usable though...it's not *broken* it WORKS...it may be a bit ugly but it WORKS...without having to pay money, without being forced to watch ads, without fearing IAP you can just enjoy single and multiplayer 19:43 Calinou The UI is not unusable...I can play just fine on my phone, all NECESSARY features are there...NOTHING locked behind a f*cking PAYWALL...NOTHING distracted by bs ads 19:43 Calinou let me try on my phone, I'll take a screenshot or two 19:43 Calinou installing the Minetest app from F-Droid right now 19:43 Calinou I will intentionally use the defaults and not tweak anything 19:44 Calinou (it's not like I ever figured out how to edit the minetest.conf on Android anyway) 19:44 Calinou also if you know how to split stacks in the inventory, you could get a Nobel prize 19:45 paramat anyway, don't worry, it seems likely it will not be dropped, most of the advantages i listed will not happen 19:48 Calinou okay, my phone is making it near impossible to take screenshots… 19:49 Calinou Volume down + Power isn't a thing on it, you can only use their "swipe the screen" thing on it which does not work in fullscreen applications 19:49 IhrFussel Calinou, unusable == broken for me...and it is not broken...moving works, jumping works, sneaking works, fly/fast/noclip/debug menu, chat, inventory, drop item button...it exists ... MANY other clients think they could just REMOVE an essential button like "drop item" cause they are damn GENIUSES 19:50 Calinou can you play it efficiently? no 19:50 Calinou does it look good? no 19:50 nerzhul Calinou, i'm not on this channel but the link mean i should come 19:50 Calinou does it run smoothly? lol no, not even the main menu is smooth for me on a S7 edge 19:50 nerzhul 0.4.16 will be on play store 19:50 nerzhul but if we need to rewrite app, i think we drop the main menu and use android native forms to do the main menu is better, especially on serverlist and crendential storage 19:51 Calinou fun fact: text does not fit in most main menu buttons/windows 19:51 Calinou nerzhul: good idea, but if you look around, most mobile games do not use Android native forms for the main menu itself 19:51 Calinou sometimes for settings, but that's about it 19:51 Calinou nerzhul: PLEASE NBO 19:51 Calinou NO* 19:51 Calinou no non-free things in Minetest, ever 19:51 Calinou and forks will remove it anyway if you do that 19:52 IhrFussel That's an issue I filed LONG ago...I suggested to reduce the gui_scaling default value for Android builds which shouldn't be TOO hard 19:52 Calinou proprietary software is never a solution to anything 19:52 nerzhul as you said before, minetest is a lib on android 19:52 nerzhul we are free to add GPLv3 + non commercial clauses on java part :p 19:53 nerzhul it's free, but if you want adds, bye bye, recode it or use a shitty version :p 19:53 Calinou this would likely be illegal 19:53 Calinou even if it's not, it's morally wrong 19:53 Calinou anyway, I did some singleplayer gameplay on 0.4.15 Android 19:54 nerzhul minetest is a lib on Android, it's legal to have the licnse you want on the main binary 19:54 Calinou it runs smoothly (enabled smooth lighting and 3D clouds as well) but view distance is very short 19:54 paramat nothing necessarily wrong with proprietary software and currently the android apps are already hideous and corrupt 19:54 nerzhul it run smoothly i agree, but menu is WTF MAN you open a strange menu to open android keyboard 19:54 Calinou nerzhul: the GPL does not permit incorporating any GPL-incompatible code, by design 19:54 Calinou paramat: "just because something is commonplace doesn't mean it's right" 19:55 paramat just because something is proprietary doesn't make it wrong 19:55 nerzhul LGPL is compatible with GPL 19:55 nerzhul you can have LGPL lib in GPL code 19:56 nerzhul example: openoffice code in libreoffice 19:56 swift110 minetest on android cannot get better without people usn gt 19:56 swift110 using it 19:58 Calinou anyway, I got some screenshots 19:59 Calinou nerzhul: LibreOffice is MPL now by the way 19:59 Calinou https://lut.im/LLHJxeKswF/ruICcZiWcOyMEXZc.png 19:59 Calinou https://lut.im/HMTeTpJpzT/q7JxPZJ13LEgYn3i.png 19:59 Calinou note: it will look huge on your screen, zoom out 19:59 Calinou note that the game does not support undersampling (don't even think about automatic undersampling), so it will always render at the phone's initial resolution 20:00 Calinou (it's in Git, but it sucks because it's not filtered) 20:03 Fixer Calinou: use downsample to something like 800x600 and increase view distance 20:04 Calinou Fixer: not possible in the current state of the app 20:04 Calinou see what I said about undersampling 20:04 Calinou changing the view distance is possible, though 20:04 nerzhul sorry but for the main menu, how can you play with that... 20:04 nerzhul it's a desktop menu, not hte best but with hand it's a pain 20:05 nerzhul and this button, at the bottom right 20:05 Calinou I get what you mean. 20:05 Calinou system GUIs would be better, sure 20:05 Calinou but if you make it proprietary, no way. 20:05 IhrFussel So since the discussion has been linked in the github issue now should I still write my comment on it? 20:05 Calinou F-Droid would kick your ass, too 20:05 Calinou for good reason 20:05 nerzhul i don't said proprietary, i said GPL and non commercial clauses it's not proprietary :p it's libre and fuck the guys who want to get money on our work 20:06 nerzhul CC NC is libre. you take, no money 20:06 red-001 LGPL wouldn't have an issue with the java part being under a diffrent licence 20:06 red-001 LGPL part* 20:07 Calinou CC -NC is not libre, and never was 20:07 Calinou please review the definition of free culture 20:08 Calinou (also, CC licenses are not software licenses) 20:08 Calinou red-001: we don't have a Classpath exception so it would. 20:08 Calinou LGPL allows dynamic linking with non-GPL-compatible software; not static linking, unless it has an exception (eg. wxWidgets) 20:10 red-001 thats not correct 20:10 red-001 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LGPLStaticVsDynamic 20:10 red-001 you just need to be able to build a code again and relink it 20:10 nerzhul Minetest is dynamicly linked on android, failed :p 20:10 red-001 the code* 20:10 Calinou it allows static linking if you have a way for the user to modify the LGPL library 20:10 Calinou which is, in practice, *never* the case 20:10 Calinou nobody does it, so stop trying 20:11 Calinou seriously, I have never seen this once in my life 20:11 red-001 there is always a first time 20:11 Calinou we're not going to do it here 20:11 nerzhul i don't know any free software who was stolen by fucking forkers 20:11 Calinou free software can't be stolen 20:12 nerzhul especially in games, because MT is the most valuable free software in terms of users on android 20:12 Calinou copyright theft is a thing, but it's not what you have in mind right now. 20:12 Calinou forking is also not always a problem 20:12 Calinou expecting everyone to go with upstream is a myth 20:12 Calinou it's blindly naive 20:12 nerzhul if they give us money, no problem, but they don't care, they just want free money lol;, in life you don't have free money, you have money for work you do. 20:13 nerzhul if someone does money on your work and you don't have any of it it's not work it's steal. 20:13 Calinou plenty of people actually do have free money 20:13 Calinou no, that's not theft in my book 20:13 Calinou theft is when you lose property of something 20:13 Calinou by definition, it basically can't happen on digital things 20:14 nerzhul i have childs and me which needs to eat 20:14 nerzhul and somes are doing money and eat on our work. It's not acceptable 20:14 nerzhul i agree for working on free software if everybody is clear, not for thiefs. 20:15 Fixer nerzhul: than MT needs to be relicensed 20:15 Fixer to shave off the fuckers 20:15 nerzhul if they fork and add adds to our software they violate our license 20:15 nerzhul like if we add GPL java part on the LGPL 20:15 nerzhul but they are worse 20:15 Calinou being poor does not automatically mean dying of hunger, too 20:15 nerzhul lol 20:15 Calinou also, a Minetest relicense is never going to happen 20:15 nerzhul sorry Calinou but you have many money and no problem. 20:15 Calinou except LGPL -> GPL because we don't need to ask anyone to do that 20:15 Calinou or LGPLv2+ -> LGPLv3+ 20:16 Fixer Die big! (George Carlin) 20:16 nerzhul i have childs, i have the chance to buy my apartment but if i don't pay at the end of the month i'm in the street. 20:16 IhrFussel Ok well since you didn't reply to me here I added a comment on the issue anyway 20:16 nerzhul and somes are driving porsche and mazerati on our work. it's not acceptable. 20:17 nerzhul if we find a way to protect our userbase and keep them using our software and force forkers to close their doors it's acceptable. 20:17 Calinou I don't think these developers have such cars just yet :P 20:18 paramat no need to change desktop MT license, but i'm not bothered by relicensing the android app 20:18 Calinou paramat: it's not legal to do so anyway 20:18 nerzhul lol multicraft earn 100k $ on our work, but no it's not sufficient for a porshe 20:18 Calinou the Minetest Android app still uses the Minetest engine and game logic, both being under LGPLv2.1+ 20:18 paramat ok 20:18 nerzhul 100k$ mean having 1 or 2 devs at full time on the project. 20:18 Calinou anyone with significant code in it can DMCA you down 20:18 Calinou and you will deserve it, don't worry 20:19 Calinou I'd do it if I had lots of code in Minetest, don't worry 20:19 paramat multicraft should donate to MT 20:19 nerzhul Calinou, answer me, for in app purchases which modify our LGPL code to add proprietary android code, and ads, i can nuke them ? 20:19 Fixer why would he? 20:19 nerzhul why would he? there is no law to protect us against this thief 20:20 Calinou you can DMCA these apps for relying on proprietary SDKs 20:20 twoelk making mt strictly nc would exclude many distributation paths, as for example being included on a disk glued to a magazine 20:20 Calinou I don't know why you're not doing this 20:20 nerzhul in app purchase means modify our code and like MT with android proprietary google libs for in app purchases 20:20 Calinou twoelk: that's not really relevant these days… 20:20 nerzhul if i can and celeron55 supports me on it i send a mail in the week to google to nuke all of them. 20:20 Calinou but my concerns with NC clauses are not about that 20:21 Calinou these clauses are far too broad and uncertain 20:23 celeron55 the multicraft author/maintainer (i always forget his nick) has offered to monetarily help minetest if there's something to use money for 20:23 twoelk there may be better examples for strict NC not being the best idea but you might get the idea ;-D 20:24 nerzhul celeron55, it's different between having money ourself for all time we spent on project and just giving some breads 20:25 twoelk depends on size of bread 20:25 nerzhul if he got money to have a maintainer at 25, 50 or 100% on the project it's different... 20:25 celeron55 envy doesn't get you very far 20:26 nerzhul if it send us money to pay the servers to host various infrastructure points like forum, wikis, serverlist 20:26 Fixer haha, good luck 20:26 paramat Monte48 or something 20:26 Fixer he will say everything he does and legal according to licence celeron choiced 20:26 Fixer and = is 20:27 celeron55 but if you can point to, for example a good graphics artist that we could hire, monte48 might pay for it 20:27 Fixer he is just using the project for easy money, mostly, he did made few suggestion to improve android part 20:27 celeron55 well i guess i could ask money for the forums and stuff 20:28 Fixer "donate" 20:28 nerzhul it's different to tell us suggestions and give money to do things on the project 20:28 twoelk nothing wrong with making easy money 20:28 paramat and i have no income and my money will soon run out :] 20:28 Fixer i'm in no way connected to this all, just discussing 20:28 nerzhul yeah, i think i will prostitute tomorrow, it's easy money... 20:28 nerzhul it's like doing PR and letting others making money on our head 20:28 Fixer yep 20:29 Fixer hovewer, celeron selected the license :p 20:29 Fixer thats what we ended up with 20:30 nerzhul yes he selected it, no problem, the problem is we are fucked up by cowards 20:30 twoelk maybe we are just to stupid to make good use of money offered 20:30 celeron55 i would've chosen BSD if i knew more about licenses back then 20:30 nerzhul celeron55, i'm okay for an artist after the minetest_game mir vs wayland war is finished :p 20:30 celeron55 and it would be even worse in this aspect 20:30 Fixer twoelk: yeah, why develope, if you can use some other people OSS hard work and have money of it contributing little to original project and even hurting it because cancerous ads and other negativity 20:30 Calinou yeah, basically any gamedev would rather have used a permissive license if they started it today 20:31 nerzhul celeron55, then microsoft never buy minecraft and take minetest lol (never because they need the user base) 20:31 Calinou Carmack himself stated "I wish I had used BSD instead" in 2013-12 20:31 Fixer nerzhul: mir is dead 20:31 nerzhul it's easy for Carmack to tell, if i used BSD... i never ate because other company steal my work in 1995 because it was internet and software war 20:31 nerzhul Fixer, yeah, :p 20:31 celeron55 but shitty chineses clones and others making money off your work is what you get with permissive licensing; it just is how it is 20:32 nerzhul but then, celeron55 do you agree i send DCMA to nuke forks adds ? 20:32 nerzhul with ads* 20:32 celeron55 we can always ask for money though; asking is not stupid 20:32 celeron55 altough what "we" means is really questionable, there's no "minetest" legal entity 20:32 celeron55 and i hate bureaucracy so i won't make it 20:32 nerzhul minetest foundation 20:33 nerzhul (better name is required :p) 20:33 nerzhul TheBlockFoundation 20:33 nerzhul :D 20:33 Fixer i've seen people saying fuck this game and rage quitting, guess why - ads/privs for money etc 20:33 nerzhul Fixer, and it's a side case, they said fuck to minetest 20:33 nerzhul not only the app 20:33 nerzhul monte48 should give us money, i will use it to promote minetest on playstore and send DCMA on ad forks :p 20:33 celeron55 nerzhul: i'm fine with any DMCAs that are correct 20:34 Fixer nerzhul: nah, they don't know what is minetest or what even the name of current game they are playing, typing /gamemode... 20:34 nerzhul celeron55, DCMA on ads mean DCMA on proprietary modifications on our code to ad ads. 20:34 nerzhul add* ads* 20:34 nerzhul if you are okay with that i will start the war 20:35 Fixer nerzhul: go trademark - nonprofit foundation - steam - sales - nuke other fuckers on android :trollface: 20:35 paramat hiring a professional graphic artist, or hiring anyone for anything, is not a good idea, it would be extremely expensive to get something of roughly the same quality as a talented contributor would do for free 20:35 Fixer nobody will do that though 20:35 celeron55 if the only way to show ads is C++ modifications (seems likely), of course DMCAs can be sent to those that don't provide source code 20:35 nerzhul KasBrick did a great work on textures, he does like... i can't remember name does 20:35 nerzhul go to appletree 20:36 nerzhul see the texture, it's proper, it's an identity, better than the raw and old mt :) 20:36 Fixer CDDA had successful kickstarter to have full time dev for few months to fix some things iirc 20:36 nerzhul celeron55, they can't and they link proprietary libs on minetest, which is forbidden by LGPL 20:37 rubenwardy the most important thing to me is that they follow prominent notice 20:37 Fixer nerzhul: why don't contact FSF to have some legal assistance? 20:37 Fixer if someone wants* 20:37 rubenwardy all apps which use Minetest as a library, ie: all those with ads, must give prominent notice that they use Minetest 20:37 rubenwardy so on the play store, and in the main menu 20:38 rubenwardy although only the latter I'm sure about 20:38 nerzhul yes they need that, but linking proprietary libs is forbidden too. 20:38 rubenwardy it's vague about download locations, but I interpretted that as implied 20:38 nerzhul to show ads you should tell minetest to send ads rendering to irrlicht if i remember 20:38 rubenwardy they'd need to use Minetest as a library, from proprietary code 20:38 rubenwardy and allow Minetest to be relinked with said proprietary code 20:39 celeron55 yeah, and as such a version of MT doesn't exist anywhere publicly, they have their own version 20:40 celeron55 even in the case of if they were crazy enough to modify MT to be a library (unlikely) 20:40 nerzhul celeron55, mt is a lib on android 20:40 rubenwardy as long as they share relevant modified code to end users, and have prominent notice / credit, I'm fine with it 20:40 celeron55 nerzhul: well, i mean functionally a library regarding to ads 20:40 rubenwardy they'd n 20:40 rubenwardy oops 20:40 nerzhul i asked on twitter https://twitter.com/nrzkt/status/867842704343838721 we will see 20:40 rubenwardy I'd say that NDK classifies as a library 20:41 rubenwardy as the C++ code is made into an .so (I believe) and dynamically linked. But I 20:41 rubenwardy *But I'm unsure on this (been a while) 20:41 nerzhul it's dynamicly linked yes 20:42 celeron55 yes; then you could display ads if you give them to MT from the actual program that uses MT; i.e. link the program with the ad library, not minetest itself 20:42 celeron55 i wonder if they are doing that 20:42 rubenwardy exactamo 20:42 celeron55 then they need to publish the version of MT that you can feed ads into 20:42 celeron55 the source code of it 20:42 rubenwardy I imagine the majority just reuse our Java code, which is LGPL 20:42 rubenwardy but I know that Multicraft rewrote the Java part 20:44 celeron55 "still a better overall ecosystem than microsoft's minecraft" - a new slogan for minetest 20:44 celeron55 :D 20:44 nerzhul you want free money, choose minetest... 20:45 rubenwardy btw, I wrote this: http://wiki.minetest.net/Licensing#Complying_with_the_License 20:45 nerzhul celeron55, i'm okay with BSD and LGPL when it's library, but a game needs to be protected, sharks are doing money on our head 20:45 Krock "great quality for the price compared to minecraft" 20:45 rubenwardy used the raw license text, and ffmpeg's compliance checklist 20:46 nerzhul rubenwardy, if you modify the code it should be distributed under the same license or compatible 20:46 rubenwardy I know, that's there 20:46 rubenwardy "must also be licensed under LGPL 2.1 or later, or a compatible license" 20:47 nerzhul y 20:47 rubenwardy also, > 10.5k tweets 20:47 rubenwardy impressive 20:48 nerzhul ? 20:48 nerzhul oh it's generally re-tweets 20:49 rubenwardy ah, I didn't scroll that far 20:54 celeron55 it would be nice of MT was dual-licensed (so that people could just pay and be done with it), but it's impossible in a licensing scheme like this where ownership of code is transferred to nobody 20:54 nerzhul not nobody, but every body who contribute 20:54 celeron55 MT would be GPL + proprietary licensed, but it was kind of impossible to get contributors on that scheme so i dropped it 20:55 nerzhul GPLv3 is sufficient to break all others 20:55 nerzhul they MUST be GPLv3 20:55 AlexYst Yeah, I see what you mean. 20:55 AlexYst I hate to be one of *those* people, but I wouldn't contribute if there were licence exceptions. 20:56 Fixer wtf with firefox lately, it consumes tons of memory, gigabytes... wtf 20:56 celeron55 due to that i'm kind of fine with all this anarchy, as to me it is what people wanted 20:57 AlexYst I like that slogan about the better overall ecosystem. 20:57 celeron55 i guess it's the other side of the copyright industry coin 20:57 nerzhul if world was not a shark world i would be fine, but it's not the case we all have lives and a work permitting us to eat and works means retribution. 20:57 celeron55 most people only see the other side 20:57 AlexYst I'm not feeling the one about the quality for the price. It makes it sound like price aside, Minetest sucks. It doesn't. 20:57 nerzhul if they don't retribute nuke 20:58 nerzhul https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=free.voxelcraft.pocketedition 20:59 nerzhul it's based on minetest and open source they said 20:59 nerzhul we should comment on those app to tell it's shit and redirect to the real app :p 21:00 nerzhul https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.bestsandapp.blockworld 21:00 nerzhul ads 21:01 nerzhul no minetest reference 21:01 Hijiri Calinou: nerzhul what about a clause requiring conspicuous attribution in app marketplace descriptions for the android app 21:01 Hijiri require a specific phrase like "Derived from the official Minetest app " 21:01 nerzhul 500k downloads, how many money on our head ! 21:04 nerzhul 100k downloads on minetest 21:04 Calinou Hijiri: requiring attribution won't fix it 21:04 Calinou and requiring attribution in software works is evil 21:04 Calinou https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html 21:04 fwhcat Hi guys 21:04 Calinou this article talks about the original BSD license (rarely used today), its main downside is that it required attribution 21:04 Calinou both GPL-incompatible and cumbersome 21:05 fwhcat hummm you can't do anything about these apps unless you change the license. 21:05 nerzhul the install uninstall grpah is interesting on MT, 12.6k install and 13.6k uninstall lol 21:05 nerzhul 6840 real installs for MT 21:05 nerzhul currently 21:06 fwhcat What about you add a more visible donate button on the website instead ? 21:06 Calinou fwhcat: technically we can – anyone with significant code in Minetest or Minetest Game can DMCA the apps because they do not follow the LGPLv2.1 21:06 Calinou why? because they all rely on proprietary SDKs for ads 21:06 Calinou we have proof of this, it's easy to get 21:06 Calinou fwhcat: donate buttons work only if you beg all the time, I've found 21:06 nerzhul strangely from march to may we incrase from 5k to 6k persistent installations 21:06 Calinou (and market it well) 21:06 Calinou this will also not make rogue apps disappear magically 21:07 Hijiri how much is significant code? 21:07 fwhcat Ok, what about the community actually maintain 2 versions of minetest 21:07 nerzhul there is no need for two versions 21:07 nerzhul engine have both versions inside it 21:07 Calinou makes no sense, yeah 21:07 Calinou Hijiri: it depends on how complex the actual code is 21:07 nerzhul it's already the case and it's also the problem 21:07 Calinou "is it original?" is the main question 21:07 fwhcat What I mean you could propose advanced features or limit features of the free version 21:08 mmuller FWIW, I don't think the LGLP explicitly precludes linking with proprietary libs. 21:08 Calinou you can't just say "49 lines of code are not copyrightable, 50 lines are" 21:08 mmuller (in fact, I think the intent was originally to the contrary) 21:08 Calinou mmuller: dynamic linking is allowed, static linking is not 21:08 Calinou from what I've seen 21:08 Calinou if you want to be sure, send an email to licensing@fsf.org, their volunteers might help 21:08 Calinou (it can take a while to get a reply, but I've got one, once) 21:08 Calinou (not Minetest-related though) 21:08 mmuller right. that's what I was about to suggest :-) 21:09 fwhcat Calinou, can you dynamic link minetest engine ? 21:09 Calinou I don't think so 21:09 fwhcat xD 21:09 mmuller but IIRC, static linking was a bit of a gray area 21:09 Calinou the problem here is that the ad SDKs themselves are statically linked, probably 21:09 Hijiri Doesn 21:09 Calinou on iOS the question isn't even to be asked: dynamic linking is not a thing on iOS 21:09 Hijiri sorry, nevermind 21:10 Calinou mmuller: it's allowed in two cases: 1) the user is allowed technically to replace the library themselves, 2) there is an exception in the LGPL added by the copyright owner to explicitly allow it (eg. wxWidgets) 21:10 Calinou 1) never happens in practice, really 21:10 fwhcat but you know, even if you'd gplv3 the app, sharks would still be sharks. 21:11 Calinou yes, it woud be as restrictive as you want, these people are not going to care about it 21:11 Calinou (no racism intended) 21:11 VanessaE I need testers on VE-Survival -- daconcepts.com 30001 21:12 fwhcat so the only thing is to make legal inquiries (ask for removal from google apps portal etc.) ?! is this even possible ? 21:12 fwhcat k VanessaE 21:12 fwhcat latest client needed or not? 21:12 VanessaE nah, just something reasonably recent. connect with as many clients as your machine can safely handle, 21:12 VanessaE but no spamming please :P 21:13 Calinou fwhcat: DMCA is possible, it has been done in the past 21:13 Calinou but c55 does not want to do it anymore, he thinks it's too much paperwork and ultimately a waste of time as they always come back 21:13 Calinou Google and Apple don't give fucks about copyright infringement on their own platforms 21:13 nerzhul there is no paperwork 21:13 Calinou this is true not just for their app stores. but YouTube, for example, is also an heaven for t hat 21:13 Calinou that* 21:13 Calinou nerzhul: well, digital paper ;) 21:14 nerzhul i just go to report app, DCMA copy paste the same pattern because it's always the same thing to say, i add my mail, terminated 21:14 AlexYst VanessaE: daconcepts.com. ... Did you get a new domain, or do I just misremember? 21:14 * AlexYst opens a client 21:14 VanessaE AlexYst: new domain, the old one has since expired. 21:14 VanessaE shorter is better. 21:14 AlexYst Oh, sorry to hear that. 21:14 VanessaE nah 21:14 VanessaE the old one was too long 21:14 AlexYst SHorter is better though, yeah. 21:14 VanessaE I let it go 21:15 AlexYst Oh, okay, as long as it was a choice. 21:15 fwhcat why not vanes.sa ? xD 21:15 nerzhul https://play.google.com/intl/fr_ALL/about/ip-deception-spam/impersonation-ip/unauthorized-copyright/ 21:15 VanessaE fwhcat: because the name actually refers to a software group and hardware company I used to run 21:15 VanessaE kept the name for posterity sake 21:16 AlexYst VanessaE: Also, doesn't your partner have a section of the site too? vanes.sa wouldn't represent the pair of you. 21:17 nerzhul https://www.reddit.com/r/androiddev/comments/20w54q/google_play_store_dmca_takedown_for_gpl_violation/ 21:18 nerzhul interesting too 21:18 VanessaE AlexYst: that too, but so few people visit his side of the site that I tend not to think about it 21:18 Grandolf hi 21:18 Grandolf i was useing WE in a private server, and its glitching i think 21:18 Grandolf it keeps placing chunks and i keep removing them 21:19 Grandolf how do i stop it? 21:20 fwhcat restart the server if you can 21:20 AlexYst Grandolf: Like ... generating new areas as you reach the edges? How are you removing them? 21:21 AlexYst It's going to take a while to connect. My home Internet connection is basically a 2G mobile data plan. 21:22 Grandolf im useing //cylinder y 50 90 air 21:23 Grandolf ik //remove regenerates the landscape 21:23 Grandolf hm 21:23 Grandolf clearobjects* 21:23 Grandolf or one of them :/ 21:25 AlexYst Ah, worldedit. I can't help then, I don't know how that mod works. 21:35 fwhcat Grandolf I don't understand your problem 21:35 fwhcat Worldedit only works by commands it doesn't do anything without your command. 21:36 fwhcat And nope, I don't see any way to regenerate the landscape without saving its state at first. 21:55 AlexYst My machine's overheating. Had to log off. 21:58 Calinou VanessaE: how many clones do you want? 21:59 Calinou I could script this perhaps 21:59 VanessaE no need now, Calinou 21:59 VanessaE testing is already done 22:04 Calinou ok 22:22 bigfoot547 Hi! 22:48 Lone_Wolf I need help figuring this out xD 22:50 Lone_Wolf Bye