Time  Nick       Message
20:41 OldCoder
20:41 OldCoder   calculon, epoch, Grandolf, halt_, proller__ voice is no longer needed to speak here
21:36 red-001    why kick the bot?
21:38 red-001    why are you trying to claim the trademark?
21:47 nore       OldCoder: I'd like those questions answered as well, please
21:48 red-001    At the very least your actions and motivation are questionable.
22:12 red-001    anyway doesn't prior art stop you from doing that?
22:12 red-001    OldCoder,
22:18 OldCoder   Folks, Hi. I was out on errands. Surprised to find activity; didn't you leave days ago?
22:18 OldCoder   Regarding "questionable", the word applies to the choices of a number of people. In context, I'm Shirley Temple.
22:19 OldCoder   "Reprehensible" would actually be a better fit, in some cases, for some of the choices that I've observed.
22:19 OldCoder   As far as other questions go, I've spent nearly three weeks trying to be helpful, accommodating, friendly
22:20 OldCoder   In exchange, I've learned that 5 years of contributions have counted for nothing, that people I trusted are shallow, that facts aren't important to the herd, and that I've wasted perhaps 30% of the closing chapters of my life
22:21 OldCoder   Those who wish to speak politely and are able to process facts, a small percentage of the population, are invited to do so
22:22 OldCoder   But right now I need to start catching up on IRL steps that I set aside, foolishly, for the benefit of people who might as well have been cardboard cutouts
22:22 OldCoder   Cardboard cutouts of pretend friends
22:22 OldCoder
22:22 OldCoder   Good day.
22:23 red-001    so you are planing to steal the trademark because you are angry at some people?
22:23 rubenwardy You're attempting to perform a hostile takeover
22:23 OldCoder   red-001, see the preceding. You are able to read. I spent 3 weeks on this. No more.
22:23 OldCoder   rubenwardy, ^
22:23 rubenwardy people will dislike this
22:23 OldCoder   3 weeks. And 5 years. Why are you here? Go to the channel that was created specifically to denigrate me.
22:23 * Jordach  would not mind turning Jordach's spare time into managing MT
22:24 red-001    OldCoder, we are here because of your actions
22:24 OldCoder   red-001, Your actions, you mean.
22:24 red-001    what did I ever do?
22:24 OldCoder   Once again, I spent 3 weeks trying to accommodate...
22:24 OldCoder   Now I must catch up IRL. Are you able to understand that?
22:24 Shara      Other channel was not created for that purpose.
22:24 OldCoder   I didn't have the time to help.
22:24 OldCoder   But I spent it regardless.
22:24 OldCoder   Will you demand more from me now?
22:25 OldCoder   Let me spell it out.
22:25 red-001    so this is about revenge?
22:25 OldCoder   I must work or be homeless.
22:25 OldCoder   Exactly how selfish are you?
22:25 Jordach    Shara, red-001, rubenwardy: i understand what has truly gone on for a very long time, mind if i elaborate
22:25 OldCoder   I am going to review and restart a subset of my worlds, add a new one, and focus on IRL work
22:25 OldCoder   As I should have done weeks ago. Instead of trying to help.
22:25 red-001    Jordach, sure
22:26 Shara      Jordach: Feel free.
22:26 Jordach    red-001, a while ago OC and I had many talks during 2013/14
22:26 Jordach    after events during 2015 i went missing for a while
22:26 OldCoder   Jordach, you were Octupus at the time, right? :-)
22:26 Jordach    yes
22:26 OldCoder   Ahh
22:26 OldCoder   Jordach, I didn't expect that
22:26 Jordach    but notice my renders had bizzare changes
22:26 OldCoder   Please excuse me
22:27 Jordach    the last posted ones have more meaning than anything
22:27 Jordach    i can sense when things go horribly bad
22:27 OldCoder   Jordach, you know that you and he were valued. And so were the others.
22:27 OldCoder   I wrote a rhyme just for you; do you remember?
22:27 Jordach    OldCoder, notice i never truly allegience between MC and or MT
22:28 OldCoder   Never mind allegiance. I'm telling you that what you did, the positive parts, were never forgotten.
22:28 Jordach    my feels for both are not strong, but it seems i have to make a choice
22:28 OldCoder   You were important to me
22:28 Jordach    during 2015 and early 2016
22:28 Jordach    i spent months building perfected modpacks in collaboration with others
22:28 Jordach    many discussions were had
22:28 Jordach    controversial pack changes were made
22:29 Jordach    but were worked out by continual testing
22:29 Jordach    arguments for and against were weighed
22:30 Jordach    late 2016: fell off playing with these packs entirely, and started drifting between my large library of unplayed games and dealing with personal problems that have been occuring
22:30 Jordach    i've documented every step of it on a physical notepad
22:30 Jordach    some of them containing incomplete renderings and entire plans
22:31 Jordach    mid 2016 i moved out from my old hole which was increasingly toxic; and had no time for MT
22:31 Jordach    early 2017: i kept an eye on the forums, but not often around in IRC
22:31 Jordach    it's because i had come from having everything prepackaged from MC
22:32 Jordach    had i realised where MT's proper strengths were
22:33 Jordach    from my understanding, MT feels wildy different subgame to subgame
22:33 Jordach    none are truly equal in terms of feeling
22:33 Jordach    BFD was that first attempt at a proper out-of-the-box FTB style experience
22:34 Fixer      Jordach: nah it is just minetest_game with different mods on top
22:34 Jordach    Fixer, is it?
22:34 Fixer      Jordach: two words: modded minetest_game
22:34 Fixer      because vanilla is that fucked up
22:34 Jordach    Fixer, and that leads to the age old problem
22:34 Jordach    if everything is terrible, nothing is
22:34 Fixer      vanilla minetest_game is just collection of blocks
22:34 Fixer      and a furnace...
22:35 Fixer      and a chest...
22:35 red-001    This doesn't really anwser my questions
22:35 Jordach    red-001, i saw change in *both* MT and MC
22:35 OldCoder   red-001, your questions are nothing compared to Jordach's concerns
22:35 Fixer      and people want basic stuff at least from MC BETA 1.7.3
22:35 OldCoder   He's worth a dozen of you. Hush and let him finish.
22:35 Jordach    red-001, MC developed a proper RPG like personality
22:35 red-001    OldCoder and what gives you the right to say that?
22:35 Jordach    i've watched many hours of YT entirely
22:35 Fixer      like mobs, automation, mobs, real survival, (and sandbox if needed)
22:36 Fixer      Jordach: same
22:36 Fixer      still watching
22:36 Jordach    red-001, ~1k hours on a MC FTB instance
22:36 OldCoder   red-001, what gives you and the others the right to say anything you've said? Let him finish.
22:36 Jordach    i understand what made the packs better than vanilla in almost 99% of cases
22:36 red-001    again what did I say
22:36 Jordach    it isn't just a kitchen sink problem
22:36 OldCoder   Hush
22:36 Fixer      even vanilla mc beta 1.7.3 had amazing capabilities, but not minetest_game, you stop after house construction more or less
22:37 Fixer      Jordach: it keeps you busy
22:37 Jordach    Fixer, but, when i built my pack, i went for the idea of: for every technological way, there's a magical one too
22:37 Jordach    each had their own set of balances
22:37 Jordach    (cost effectvity and so on)
22:38 Jordach    high end technology required huge amounts of mining and digging
22:38 rubenwardy OldCoder, that was incredibly rude
22:38 Jordach    high end magic required some time to setup large magical structures
22:38 Jordach    but were often using renewables
22:38 rubenwardy From what I see, he's just asking why you're trying to buy the trademark
22:39 Fixer      Jordach: just don't do botania in minetest ._____. it is so complex
22:39 Jordach    Fixer, botania has lost most of the inane grind last time i played in 1.7.10
22:39 Shara      Unless I am missing something, have to agree with rubenwardy here.
22:39 Shara      I had hoped this channel was beyond the insults stage now.
22:40 Jordach    Shara, stress ran too far
22:40 Jordach    the final straw broke that back
22:40 OldCoder   rubenwardy, you are better educated than you are coming across. Allow Jordach to finish BTW.
22:40 Jordach    Shara, rubenwardy: i came back at the right time
22:40 Jordach    sterring MT's chaotic developing is impossible
22:41 Jordach    since i've left for so long with enough ideas to write a game entirely by myself
22:41 OldCoder   steering ^
22:41 Jordach    obviously
22:41 Jordach    everytime _game wants to do something, someones vision gets trampled on
22:41 Jordach    it will never work as a sense ofa  game
22:41 Jordach    yet they treat it like it needs mods; breaking the usage of _GAME
22:41 Jordach    Minecraft can be played by itself; MT cannot
22:43 Jordach    it also comes to my second problem
22:43 Jordach    servers
22:44 Jordach    many servers are basically identical with minor changes between them
22:44 Jordach    if i picked any random FTB pack server
22:44 Jordach    they'd be wildly different
22:44 Jordach    it maybe MC under it; but it plays and feel different
22:44 Fixer      yep
22:45 Fixer      you can, but well... it is like plain in the yard with a stick
22:45 Fixer      homo sapiens kind of era
22:45 Fixer      before that
22:45 Fixer      Jordach: don't forget about pretty big stall in development that was around 0.4.12 or so
22:45 Fixer      Jordach: well, there are common mods, because vanilla mtg is very limited
22:45 Fixer      Jordach: say ambience, mobs, etc
22:45 Jordach    Fixer, the ultimate solution to it is having direction in _game
22:45 Jordach    a proper game with documentation on what goes in it
22:46 Fixer      Jordach: yep
22:46 Jordach    it is why i've open sourced my experimental Solar Plains
22:46 Jordach    and my third point: a game shouldn't need mods to be playable
22:47 Jordach    fourth: the servers need to have more moderation and other various things
22:47 Jordach    have you ever seen a well behaved MT server?
22:47 Fixer      Jordach: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/515 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1485 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1488 etc
22:48 Fixer      also this https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1667
22:48 Jordach    Fixer, see https://github.com/Jordach/Solar_Plains/issues
22:48 Jordach    ive wrote down a proper todo list with complete milestones
22:48 Jordach    development shouldn't feel obligatory nor unfun
22:48 Jordach    it's why i start and stop frequently
22:49 red-005    oh I'm still connected with this bnc
22:49 red-005    bye
22:50 Jordach    Fixer, the hydrolics was to provide a Thermal Expansion style power network
22:50 Jordach    but visually and doesn't have to be overly complex
22:50 Jordach    visual = on/off
22:50 Fixer      Jordach: automation is needed for sure
22:50 Jordach    it either contains enough power for low end machiens
22:50 Jordach    or not
22:51 Jordach    Fixer, i even patched the furnace to make ores smelt into 1-3 ingots
22:52 Fixer      interesting
22:52 Fixer      more ore variability
22:52 Jordach    reduce the grind and suffering entirely
22:52 Jordach    but allows for improvements later on
22:53 Jordach    instead of just mining, i've given the eventual plan options of not mining
22:55 Jordach    i've considered the offerings from Bethesda mostly; treat it as a sandbox and let players decide on their path
22:55 OldCoder   The strength of the platform is that anybody can create such a game
22:55 OldCoder   Wuzzy is working on his MineClone 2, remember
22:55 red-001    OldCoder, it's extermaly rude to try to message someone after they ignore you and tell you to stop
22:55 OldCoder   It need not line up with what is described here
22:55 OldCoder   red-001, take it to PM
22:56 Jordach    Fixer, it solves the second major problem with multiplayer that many admins hate#
22:56 Jordach    roleplay
22:58 OldCoder   Jordach, how so?
22:58 Jordach    OldCoder, i've considered many games that use procgen content
22:58 nore       OldCoder: I am still interested in the answer about why you're trying to claim the trademark, even if red is no longer there btw
22:58 Jordach    (recent bethesda RPGs Fallout 4, Skyrim; Elite (1984, Dangerous)
22:59 Jordach    OldCoder, consider the following: questing, trading / town building with NPCs and mining
22:59 OldCoder   nore, allow Jordach to finish; you have no claim on my time
22:59 OldCoder   Jordach, yes
22:59 Jordach    all three depend on each other softly
23:00 Jordach    you need miners to trade, NPCs to trade with, and farmers / aborists for building said homes
23:00 Jordach    the fundamental of MT is that you aren;t locked in to any path entirely
23:00 Jordach    it's freeform
23:00 Jordach    each tree has partial specializations
23:01 Jordach    town planning, automated mining and farming (machinist, industrialist), open ended questing and exploration
23:01 Jordach    give them a reason to do something other than gather endless resources
23:01 Jordach    give a person a reason to fill a resource sink and they'll do it
23:02 Jordach    see F2P MMOs
23:02 Jordach    tl;dr if there's bragging rights, people will grind
23:02 Jordach    instead of idling and doing roleplay in the negative fashion
23:03 Jordach    but a miner, trader and farmer are vastly different
23:03 Jordach    but players will "roleplay" as one
23:03 Jordach    eg, proper trading interaction over materials and such
23:03 Jordach    UGC is practically the best way to make MT indefinitely *fresh*
23:04 Jordach    player vs player is the best form of interaction entirely
23:04 Jordach    (read, not combat)
23:04 Jordach    V's server has a pseudo economy
23:05 Jordach    but it's problem is inflation
23:05 Jordach    if coins were to be made through industrialist methods, it stops currency inflation, which means hiring miners
23:06 OldCoder
23:06 Jordach    and traders to broker the materials
23:06 Jordach    it supports itself
23:06 Jordach    admins only need to watch for greifers and that's practicaly it
23:07 Jordach    but yes, that's the sketch i'm working from
23:07 Jordach    (and you may resume, nore, Shara )
23:08 OldCoder   Shara, your thoughts?
23:08 Shara      I don't think there's anything here I haven't considered.
23:08 OldCoder   Jordach, there is no single perfect _game, though some will approach the ideal
23:09 OldCoder   I think many feel...
23:09 OldCoder   that releases ought to bundle high quality _games
23:09 Shara      I had (probably still have somewhere), very detailed plans for a subgame I'd like to create when I have time and learn enough, which considers many such points as well.
23:09 OldCoder   This is separate from questions related to who decides what.
23:09 Shara      But time.
23:09 OldCoder   Shara, Time will come
23:09 OldCoder   You and Jordach still have Time
23:09 OldCoder   Fixer, so do you
23:10 OldCoder   All three of you are important
23:10 Shara      Some people here still have questions too, it seems.
23:10 OldCoder   We all have questions. I'd like to know why I go into shock a few times a day. Such as right now.
23:10 OldCoder   Time to lie down
23:10 OldCoder   o/
23:11 OldCoder   Back later. Shara, I'm sorry about the cat.
23:11 OldCoder   I've told you my thoughts on the subject. But...
23:11 Shara      Not the place for it.
23:11 OldCoder   Cats are more vulnerable than dogs. I'm glad that you were there.
23:11 Shara      But appreciated.
23:11 nore       Jordach: this seems very interesting, it's a bit differently oriented than what we're trying to build with minetest_game I think, but definitely worth doing and can lead to high-quality results
23:11 OldCoder   I've said what I've said regardless.
23:11 OldCoder   Need to lie down.
23:12 nore       I also think we need to include high-quality subgames with minetest, right now we don't have much
23:12 OldCoder   I'm bundling MineClone 2 and Mineville. Wuzzy will continue on the former. The latter will grow with contributions from Shara and others.
23:13 OldCoder   And when Jordach has an alpha of his, that will be bundled as well.
23:13 OldCoder   I won't be able to sit up more than another 30 seconds or so, so kindly excuse me.
23:13 OldCoder