Time  Nick           Message
08:44 tenplus1       hi folks
08:44 IhrFussel      Hi tenplus1
08:44 tenplus1       hey fussel, how'[s u
08:44 IhrFussel      Just woke up xP I'm fine and you?
08:45 tenplus1       same :) had coffee
08:45 tenplus1       it seems the player detach slide issue is still in 5.0.1... was only fixed in singleplayer
08:46 tenplus1       tried enabling player knockback on server and when player punched they move backwards but then on detatch slide in from spawn... annoyinh
08:51 IhrFussel      Seriously? Then whoever approved it reviewed wrong
08:51 tenplus1       am hoping a simple mistake that can easily be fixed
08:52 tenplus1       failing that re-open the knockback pull for players :D
08:56 IhrFussel      Yeah but it's kinda still a bummer that the fix actually does not exist for the version you hoped for
08:56 tenplus1       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5679
08:56 tenplus1       !title
08:57 MinetestBot    tenplus1: Knockback by Dumbeldor · Pull Request #5679 · minetest/minetest · GitHub
08:58 tenplus1       oh ffs, why do ppl post this crap on forum
08:59 IhrFussel      Why can so many spam bots register and post in the first place?? Maybe forum staff should think about a more effective method of captchas
09:00 tenplus1       marked 14 of them and reported
09:00 tenplus1       yeah, adding a capcha on post would be handy
09:04 tenplus1       am thinking that using player overrides may be handy if we had a {contol} flag
09:05 tenplus1       e.g. player:set_physics_override({control=false}) -- stop player control and allow player:set_velocity / player:set_acceleration features
09:06 tenplus1       this would also be good for putting players in jail :D
09:09 IhrFussel      It's bad that we currently have to rely on entities just to move players the way WE want ... for example my /freeze command spawns an invisible entity next to the player and then attaches it to it ... cause overriding the speed property of the physics results in weird stuttering for them
09:09 tenplus1       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8567
09:11 tenplus1       yeah, although my POVA mod would allow an override to stop players moving also if you needed
09:11 IhrFussel      AFAIK some core devs simply oppose the idea that the server should be able to interrupt all player control/movement
09:12 tenplus1       we need this,not just for playerknockback and freeze but many other features we could add using mods
09:12 tenplus1       pova.add_override("singleplayer", "force", {speed=0})
09:13 IhrFussel      But I don't see the argument made here really... it is my server (like most server owners like to claim) and therefore players need to do what I want ... it doesn't matter if I disabled their controls, read their PMs or banned them ... all happens on my property basically
09:13 tenplus1       yup and yup... admin/owners need a semblence of control over the server and players
09:14 tenplus1       I had to report a paedo some time back to his ISP with logs of chat
09:14 IhrFussel      I also don't see how disabling player controls can be used for something malicious ... the worst that can happen is moving the player around freely and that already works via entities
09:15 tenplus1       yep... at least the control flag would have a set switch to disable keys/mouse functions to allow engine to move around the player entity.. I doubt it would lag anything
09:16 IhrFussel      You could right now code a little silly mod that attaches every joining player to an entiuty and then set random velocity all the time ... this is no argument
09:16 tenplus1       hah yeah
09:16 tenplus1       drunk effect 2.0 :D
09:17 tenplus1       I may post the issue in forum also and see howmany users/owners./players would be interested
09:17 IhrFussel      But it is hacky and tedious to have to use entities for that ... cause entities need to be STORED ... and if you code them wrong it can happen that they fill up your map size if you don't notice the missing deletion for example
09:19 IhrFussel      For example imagine your knockback entity misses something that never triggers deletion ... and now you use it on a server with 30+ players constantly getting hit...have fun
09:20 tenplus1       https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22633
09:21 tenplus1       that's why I put a timer on the knockback entity that counts down to 0 then removes itself and detatched player s:P
09:22 IhrFussel      Correct me if I'm wrong but that never triggers if the player somehow leaves the area before the timer is up I think
09:22 tenplus1       the area always loads around the player, so theres no chance of it NOT happening :D
09:23 IhrFussel      I mean that makes it very reliable cause the entity only stays for example if the player logs offline while attached
09:23 IhrFussel      I don't think entities execute anymore if there is only 1 player in an area though
09:24 tenplus1       if player disconnects while attached to the entity in my knockback example, the entity remains but as soon as a player comes into that area it'll restart countdown and remove itself
09:24 tenplus1       but yeah, it's a very messy way to do things
09:24 IhrFussel      You could probably fix that by storing the player together with entity somewhere in a table and on leaveplayer() delete it ... but the point is all that is just bad programming
09:24 tenplus1       forum page added, lets see how many folk are interested :) maybe add your 2 cents if you like :P
09:24 tenplus1       https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22633
09:31 IhrFussel      I replied to the issue for now https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8567#issuecomment-496439978
09:31 tenplus1       thanks dude :P
09:34 tenplus1       we can finally setup tnt cannons and catapult players across the map into safe landing zones :DDDD
09:36 IhrFussel      Updated and included one important point
09:37 IhrFussel      Wait now I need to edit it some more
09:37 tenplus1       ehehehe
09:39 IhrFussel      Okay now the last sentence makes more sense
09:39 tenplus1       your last line sounds like it's against the {switch} idea :P
09:40 luk3yx         "I also don't understand the opinion of some core devs who think that servers should never have full control over players, cause we as server staff already have full control."
09:40 tenplus1       hi luk3yx
09:40 luk3yx         Hello
09:40 luk3yx         I don't see why people would use that argument against that feature request.
09:41 tenplus1       the player itself should be a normal entity like the rest, but with a control feature attached to it
09:41 tenplus1       then every fuinction woudl work on it without fail and give us a ton of ideas and features we coudl implement
09:42 luk3yx         And it would also be a fun way to torment misbehaving players
09:42 tenplus1       oh yes :) let the mods do their thing :DD
09:43 IhrFussel      luk3yx, the point is you can already do all of that now ... with entities ... but that is a really stupid and unnecessary step
09:44 luk3yx         IhrFussel: Yeah, that's why I +1ed it
09:44 IhrFussel      IF entities couldn't completely disable player controls then they would have a point
09:44 tenplus1       the little 3 line example I posted makes things soooo easy, but imagine having to create the entity and checks to remove it just to do the same thing... ugg
09:46 tenplus1       IhrFussel: could you make your last line something like "but NOT being able to control player velocity and acceleration on a server directly is unacceptable? Sorry but I don't follow that logic."
09:46 IhrFussel      tenplus1, does my edit sound good now? I'm no native English speaker, so I often use unneeded complexity in my sentences
09:47 IhrFussel      This sounds correct now to me 'But being able to control player velocity and acceleration on a server directly is unacceptable? Sorry but I don't follow that logic.'
09:48 tenplus1       that line makes it sound as if controlling player velocity and acceleration is a bad thing
09:52 IhrFussel      'But when it comes to controlling player velocity and acceleration on a server directly it should be frowned upon? Sorry but I don't follow that logic.'
09:53 tenplus1       still sounds like it's a bad idea :)
09:53 IhrFussel      I don't see how
09:53 tenplus1       'But when it comes to controlling player velocity and acceleration on a server directly it should be left up to the owner/mods"
09:54 tenplus1       frowning upon controlling accel and velocity directly means the {control} idea is bad and shoudlnt be implemented.
09:54 IhrFussel      No I mean it like 'so you allow this and that and that...but THIS should now suddenly be bad? I don't follow your logic'
09:56 tenplus1       it reads different :P sorry
09:57 IhrFussel      Ok I changed it to this 'But when it comes to controlling player velocity and acceleration on a server directly you don't want to allow it? Sorry but I don't follow that logic.'
09:57 tenplus1       that's perfect :D
10:01 IhrFussel      I just throught of yet another downside of attaching players to entities: They just disappear when nobody is nearby and the map shows their name tag at 0,0,0
10:01 tenplus1       hi fixer
10:02 tenplus1       yaeh, that's part of the slide bug I think when a player detatches from an entity
10:02 tenplus1       rather than saving the last player coordinate on detatch, 0,0,0 is used
10:03 IhrFussel      Yes...but even if the last player position is saved correctly the player still completely disappears when you walk away ~ 45 nodes by default (on my server I set active block range lower)
10:04 IhrFussel      That gives other players the illusion that the player is still at a spot where they aren't at all anymore
10:04 tenplus1       true... hrmmm
10:05 IhrFussel      Cause they moved with their entity and could be anywhere else
10:05 tenplus1       maybe having an on_detatch function available for an entity that could remove it completely from map
10:06 Fixer          sex spammer https://forum.minetest.net/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=24744
10:06 IhrFussel      There is on_death() at least but it doesn't help with this issue
10:06 Fixer          hi
10:06 tenplus1       or on_unloaded for entity that runs the function even when it's not active ?
10:07 IhrFussel      And on_death() is also not 100% reliable cause I learned from Krock that it doesn't even get called when the engine decides to delete objects cause there are too many in one area
10:07 tenplus1       ahh,t hat's not good
10:07 tenplus1       Fixer: the forum needs captcha when posting to stop this
10:08 IhrFussel      He said that deletion check happens before the entity even gets its actual data
10:09 tenplus1       the mob_remove feature I added required a flag to delete them properly in unloaded areas, but sometimes it only worked when it was reloaded...
10:10 tenplus1       entities need some love in 5.0.2
10:12 IhrFussel      This bot is selling drugs and posted a lot of copies in one topic https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=347916#p347916
10:13 IhrFussel      The post also got a GIF attached to it... pretty dangerous
10:14 tenplus1       sooo many posts from that user... wish I had the ability to delete them AND the user
10:14 IhrFussel      Although I'd guess malware only targets Windows
10:15 IhrFussel      I wonder why it says 'posts: 0'
10:16 IhrFussel      Or does it only count topics?
10:16 tenplus1       side-loading through existing account ?
10:16 tenplus1       we need a forum dev to handle this
10:17 tenplus1       the link in his profile needs Tor to access... that's never a good sign
10:18 tenplus1       ShadowNinja: you seen forums ? bad stuff happening
10:18 tenplus1       celeron55: you active dude, forums being hit with ads
10:18 luk3yx         Can VanessaE do anything about it? They only have a "moderator" status
10:19 luk3yx         (If not, sorry for pinging you)
10:19 tenplus1       I think moderators can remove the post but not bad the user
10:20 * tenplus1     rubs rubenwardy 's magic lamp
10:21 tenplus1       yeah, we need this gone and fast
10:23 tenplus1       brb, making lunch
10:26 VanessaE       I HAVE BEEN PINGED
10:26 VanessaE       hasdghgfadggjhsgoi=380yg80f9g0921h 4
10:26 * VanessaE     segfaults
10:26 luk3yx         In case you didn't see, there's a swine on the forums.
10:26 tenplus1       hi VanessaE :P yay for pings
10:27 VanessaE       can't work on that right now
10:27 tenplus1       awwie...  grant me the power of the dark knights to deal with this enemy
10:35 VanessaE       ok, the bot pointed to by IhrFussel has been dispatched.
10:35 tenplus1       w00t! thanks Vanessa
10:35 VanessaE       and the one Fixer pointed out.
10:35 CWz            sup
10:36 tenplus1       hi CWz o/
10:36 VanessaE       hey CWz
10:38 CWz            tenplus1, have you concidered mobs riding horses
10:38 tenplus1       lolol
10:38 tenplus1       gotta look into that one :D
10:38 * CWz          wants to make dothraki mobs
10:42 tenplus1       wonder how many entities can be attached at one time :D
10:43 VanessaE       there, homedecor's 3d extras mod covers doors and trap doors now.
10:44 tenplus1       how so ?
10:44 VanessaE       download it and compare :)
10:44 VanessaE       wood and steel doors no longer look like painted glass :P
10:44 * CWz          stares at VanessaE
10:45 * VanessaE     hides from cwz
10:45 * CWz          walks around in circles
10:48 Fixer          aids on the forum
10:51 VanessaE       Fixer: eh?
10:51 Fixer          just my remark, nevermind
10:51 VanessaE       oh.
10:51 VanessaE       trolling usual
10:51 VanessaE       got it.
10:51 tenplus1       what's changed about the doors Vanessa ?
10:51 tenplus1       they look the same
10:51 VanessaE       tenplus1: moment.
10:54 tenplus1       brb
10:55 VanessaE       tenplus1: https://imgur.com/kD68Vn1
10:55 VanessaE       look at the window area.
10:55 VanessaE       left is default, right is the 3d-ified one.
10:56 BuckarooBanzai VanessaE: this looks awesome :O
10:56 VanessaE       thanks :)
10:56 BuckarooBanzai o/ by the way
10:57 VanessaE       https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/commit/6181f9c4006bd5822864a71fd8d515e0993b3a91
10:57 VanessaE       hi hi
10:57 BuckarooBanzai A doorknob would be nice though ;P
10:58 VanessaE       yeah, but I was trying to keep to a minimal amount of geometry, that way it's HDX-friendly
10:58 VanessaE       (though I need to make new images for them, and for homedecor's doors, and some lights)
10:59 VanessaE       I guess we don't have "resource packs" yet
10:59 VanessaE       (otherwise I'd go ahead and add doorknob geometry, and just supply appropriately-detailed models and textures in HDX)
11:00 VanessaE       besides, I think with default doors, that's a pull latch, not a knob :)
11:02 tenplus1       ahhh, I see it now :) nice one
11:02 BuckarooBanzai VanessaE: while you are here i have a proposal for your unified_inv mod: what do you think about the sethome-function only working in non-protected areas (i would make a PR with a setting if thats alright)
11:02 tenplus1       good idea
11:03 VanessaE       tenplus1: thanks.  steel door window is much flatter btw, that way HDX can put steel screened glass there, while default can retain the quartered-window appearance
11:03 VanessaE       BuckarooBanzai: unified_inventory isn't mind.
11:03 VanessaE       isn't mine*
11:04 BuckarooBanzai i thought i saw it in your space on gitlab... :/
11:04 BuckarooBanzai or is the one on git*hub* the master...?
11:04 VanessaE       github.
11:04 BuckarooBanzai :( ok then
11:05 VanessaE       I don't have a fork, btw.
11:05 VanessaE       the official one is github minetest-mods I believe
11:06 BuckarooBanzai yeah, not a fan of discussing white-space and stuff over there....
11:06 VanessaE       heh
11:06 tenplus1       woudl be easier to submit a pull for ui with explanation
11:07 VanessaE       I suppose some devs are obsessed with code style/formatting..  Me?  bleh, whatever.  I just care that people use tabs for indenting, and that the code works and doesn't do anything stupid.
11:07 VanessaE       now as for its sethome function,.
11:08 VanessaE       imho it should just hook those buttons through the mtg sethome functions
11:08 VanessaE       instead of using its own incompatible homes database
11:09 tenplus1       wait, it doesnt use sethome functions ?
11:09 tenplus1       damn
11:09 BuckarooBanzai last time i checked those functions where "local" to the source-file...
11:09 VanessaE       tenplus1: nope.  UI has its own implementation that predates the one in mtg
11:10 BuckarooBanzai nevermind, they aren't: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/sethome/init.lua#L22
11:11 tenplus1       :P
11:11 tenplus1       ui should be using the sethome functions where possible
11:11 VanessaE       yes  it should.
11:11 VanessaE       then BuckarooBanzai's idea should in turn be aimed at the mtg mod instead of UI
11:12 tenplus1       yeah, sethome.set could be overwritten to have a protection check
11:12 tenplus1       hell, I should have added that in the 1st place with the original sethome pull
11:14 VanessaE       no
11:14 VanessaE       use a separate PR
11:15 VanessaE       you know how paramat can be :P
11:15 tenplus1       lol
11:15 BuckarooBanzai a setting would suffice i think (on mtg side)
11:20 tenplus1       yeah
11:20 tenplus1       ds-minetest replied to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8567
11:21 tenplus1       anyone know what 'static_save=false' is ? I cant find reference in docs
11:28 VanessaE       sounds entity related?
11:28 tenplus1       nothign in lua_api or minetest.conf exanmples
11:43 tenplus1       IhrFussel: 'static_save = false,' is added to the entity registration so it is never saved with the mapblock
11:43 tenplus1       would this help ya ?
11:52 BuckarooBanzai done :) https://github.com/minetest-mods/unified_inventory/pull/130
11:54 tenplus1       yay
12:01 BuckarooBanzai sample implementation for protected sethome: https://github.com/pandorabox-io/pandorabox_custom/blob/master/sethome.lua
12:01 tenplus1       yup
12:26 tenplus1       maybe it's time to move sethome to use player meta instead of a separate file
12:30 IhrFussel      tenplus1, it would help in many cases, but let's just hope the devs reconsider their decision with this issue
12:31 tenplus1       little recommendations, little changes and who knows, a better game for all
12:31 IhrFussel      On my server I merged UI's sethome with MTG's sethome
12:31 tenplus1       sweet, you're running the latest and greatest :)
12:33 IhrFussel      many players complained about the missing option to set a 2nd home, but there are enough other options for 'waypoints'
12:33 tenplus1       yeah, so many mods can handle that feature
12:33 tenplus1       and a ton of teleporter mods as well :P
12:34 IhrFussel      I have travelnets and teleport pads ... a 2nd home is simply redundant then
12:35 tenplus1       having /sethome /home /spawn is more than enough... and the teleporter pads we use need you to actually visit the destination to bookmark it for use :D
12:35 IhrFussel      But players are lazy... they want to be able to click 1 button in their inventory and not look for their nets/pads first
12:36 tenplus1       many dont want to explore, they want everything handed to them... that's not fun
12:36 IhrFussel      Almost daily I see players joining and then asking for creative
12:37 tenplus1       lol, and those get kicked with a "no begging" warning :D
12:37 IhrFussel      or even worse: They think this is MC and say something like 'gamemode 1 pls'
12:37 tenplus1       hahahahaha
12:38 tenplus1       we have the rules listed in 8 languages, and still no-one reads them :D
12:40 IhrFussel      Oh wow...I just read that '/gamemode 1' isn't even supported in MC anymore since version 1.13 which should be a long time ago
12:40 IhrFussel      Wait
12:41 IhrFussel      Oh I messed up the version numbers
12:41 tenplus1       lol
12:41 IhrFussel      July 2018 was 1.13
12:44 tenplus1       1.14 now
12:53 VanessaE       BuckarooBanzai: "uses sethome.go() and sethome.set() from the minetest-game settime mod"  One of these things is not like the others.........
12:55 tenplus1       hrm, moving sethome to use player_attributes means that reading or setting a players home position when they arent online would be impossible
13:04 BuckarooBanzai VanessaE: :P hehe, i was on the settime code too..
13:07 IhrFussel      tenplus1, I wonder how difficult it would be to implement a temp player object for that player so that you can still modify the attributes even though they are not online
13:08 tenplus1       I dont think you could create a temp player entity that points to the same data
13:08 tenplus1       reading on mod storage :) could use that isntead and it'll work :D
13:09 IhrFussel      Nah I mean engine feature... so that minetest.get_player_by_name() doesn't necessarily return nil but something else
13:09 tenplus1       good point, would be nice if it could point to playerdata even when offline
13:11 IhrFussel      Maybe it could return 2 values and you get the new one via local player, mode = minetest.get_player_by_name() ... then player still contains the legacy object or nil and mode could contain a new reference for newer mods
13:12 IhrFussel      Just an idea to not compat break old code
13:12 tenplus1       hrmmm... local player = minetest.get_player_by_name("singleplayer", force) -- if force true then return playerdata even when offline ?
13:13 IhrFussel      Or like that ... then 'force' would cause the engine to init a temp player object that points to their data only
13:14 tenplus1       then mods like sethome or something important can read/set player attributes
13:14 VanessaE       bbl
13:15 tenplus1       o/
13:15 VanessaE       tenplus1: reminder:  simple_skins as homedecor wardrobe backend :)
13:15 tenplus1       hehe, working on ideas :P
13:15 VanessaE       ok :)
13:15 * VanessaE     wanders off for a nap
13:17 tenplus1       am gonna go shopping :) back laters folks o//
16:14 IhrFussel      If you hold left click with a weapon and punch an entity 'tflp' will give you a RANGE of values
16:14 IhrFussel      Sometimes it is the server step value, other times it is 2 or 3 times that
16:15 IhrFussel      I'm still testing if the value is just random or if something causes that
16:24 IhrFussel      I set my server step to 0.12 for testing ... and 'tflp' inside the entity on_punch() shows me either 119 ms or 239 ms so basically the engine swallows a punch every now and then
16:26 IhrFussel      And it seems to be completely random
16:30 IhrFussel      Is this network related?
16:30 IhrFussel      Hi Krock
16:31 Krock          hi IhrFussel *reads*
16:33 IhrFussel      Correction: The tflp value is either 119 ms or 239 ms or 359 ms but 359 is rather rare
16:34 IhrFussel      It didn't look like server lag was the cause but I can check it again to make sure
16:38 rdococ         if I wanted mod A to depend on mod B and modify mod B's modification of minetest.is_protected (or whatever it was called), how would I do it?
16:38 rdococ         nvm, I thought of a better way to do it
16:56 IhrFussel      Nope, not related to server lag ... even with max_lag of 0.13 I still get 239 ms punch intervals
17:15 Krock          IhrFussel: maybe the punch is recorded in one step, but executed in another
17:15 Krock          would have to investigate that more to be safe, though
17:18 IhrFussel      But to make sure: There can only be MAX 1 punch registered per server step right?
17:19 Krock          *opens kdevelop*
17:20 Krock          I don't see any rate limit in handleCommand_Interact
17:21 Krock          but there's one in PlayerSAO::step
17:21 Krock          only with tools which have a punch interval of 0 you could do multiple punches in one server step
17:25 IhrFussel      How does the registration even work? The client tells the server 'hey I punched this thing' and then the server sees it as punch?
17:27 Krock          the client sends a packet to the server, stating what it punched. node->position, entity->entity id
17:28 Krock          of course, the server will get the entity's position and check whether the player may punch it
17:28 IhrFussel      The client tells what it punched? I hope there are some anti cheat measures then so that modified clients cannot give another entity as target
17:29 IhrFussel      Ah ok then
17:29 Krock          imagine android
17:29 Krock          they can punch at whatever they see if it's in range
17:29 Krock          so it would be quite harder to add a rotation-based anticheat protection, also because that might change very fast
17:30 Krock          keeping things simple here.
17:31 IhrFussel      So the client can only cheat within its reach
17:31 IhrFussel      You mean tool range? Or active block range?
17:32 Krock          within its reach or infinite if you disable anticheat
17:32 Krock          tool range
17:32 Krock          this takes the "hand" item into account, if it exists
17:33 IhrFussel      And the tool range value is read-only I'd guess then
17:36 Krock          huh? item and node definitions are static. clients could locally cheat their way though, but the server wouldn't allow thatr
17:36 Krock          -r
17:38 IhrFussel      Sounds like MT anti cheat system isn't really bad... it's just missing a few features like fly/noclip detection which are probably harder to implement than anything else
17:41 Krock          since player movement is still calculated client-side I'm not surprised that anticheat still cannot detect that after these years
17:41 Krock          *cough, there's a PR*
17:44 CWz            minecraft has anti noclip
17:45 Krock          so it has clip because it's double-inverting
17:45 Krock          maybe there the server also calculates the player movements
18:09 IhrFussel      I think one big issue is that any player can place nodes on a position where another player stands and therefore it might look like the player is using 'noclip'
18:10 IhrFussel      At least in 0.4.17.1 that's the case
18:22 Krock          it should only be a very small area around the node which allows that without darkening the entire screen
18:27 IhrFussel      Oh yes the screen gets black for the player but I mean it might be difficult to recognize an actual noclip player sever side vs someone who got 'trapped' by solid nodes
18:27 IhrFussel      server side*
19:30 Krock          merging https://github.com/minetest-mods/unified_inventory/pull/120
20:07 Fixer          Krock: that player movement PR is dead, as usual, since noone checked it