Time  Nick         Message
01:22 benrob0329   paramat: why must you take the random bits of dialog from a previous idea, which led to another idea which led to a feature request as the only use case for said feature? :-)
01:24 benrob0329   I don't understand why world portals themselves are such a low priority when other dimensions has been a topic of interest for years, let along a fairly general purpose feature that happens to help in the creation of them
01:26 benrob0329   But to answer your question, yes the main idea for the use was was world portals. But the initial statement by me was for a different specific use case.
01:31 paramat      "why must you take the random bits of dialog from a previous idea" because there was no other use case stated
01:32 benrob0329   Alright, that's fair
01:33 paramat      portals are not low priority of course, they're seential and already possible. but having them look like in MC or Portal is
01:33 paramat      *essential
01:33 benrob0329   But then when more use cases are given, you don't want them because they weren't thought of with the original idea?
01:35 benrob0329   I'm a modder (ish), and I want to be able to make some cool effects with my mods. So I think of a general purpose feature that can be useful for more things while still having my end goal(s) in mind.
01:36 paramat      the uses given by lonewolf were either invalid or very low priority and already doable with particles
01:37 GreenDimond  There are plenty of use cases for per-player entities
01:37 benrob0329   being able to see players under certain circumstances can't be done with particles
01:38 GreenDimond  Hallucinations, second wield hand, HUD ~~hacks~~ effects with per-player entities
01:38 GreenDimond  to name a few
01:38 benrob0329   and technically players are considered entities, just without a few things like set_velocity no?
01:38 rdococ       I'd love Portal portals but I doubt they're coming any time soon
01:39 GreenDimond  Heck, mobs that are invisible part of the time
01:39 benrob0329   The effect could probably be done client side even, or as a vetted send like we already do with distance
01:39 GreenDimond  except this is per-player not visibility settings
01:39 paramat      a feature request needs specific use cases, and i expect you have some
01:40 benrob0329   I can make a list, but it'll still just be random ideas
01:40 GreenDimond  I realized I have a need for it, two of which are already stated above
01:40 paramat      this is nothing to do with players, they're not entities
01:42 GreenDimond  I just gave 3 usecases
01:42 benrob0329   My intended use cases are teleportation transitions, world portals and faked perspective
01:43 benrob0329   Heck, if you wanted any kind of effect around something that was only visible to them, this is needed because backface_culling will still show the inside
01:44 benrob0329   Jordach's title screen in Solar Plains would likely benefit from this, as it only needs to be visible to one person
01:45 paramat      GreenDimond it's easy to think up vague, random, low priority usecases. hallucinations can be done using particles. 2nd wieldhand would be coded properly as a second wieldhand
01:46 paramat      mobs can be made invisible already, globally
01:46 benrob0329   thats the point
01:46 benrob0329   globally doesn't fit every use case
01:46 GreenDimond  > Hallucinations as particles
01:46 GreenDimond  lol
01:46 GreenDimond  make an mob hallucination with particles
01:46 GreenDimond  a*
01:47 GreenDimond  paramat there are use cases for this and its things like this that make modders mad
01:47 GreenDimond  "give me a use case" well I cant now because you asked
01:47 GreenDimond  use cases arise in the moment
01:47 GreenDimond  and we know there are plenty
01:48 paramat      i'll be happy to support once i see a genuine need and very sigificant usefulness, but i don't yet
01:48 benrob0329   what if you wanted a mob to only be visible to a player with night vision goggles, or some kind of clue, or some kind of navigational helper that every player doesn't need to see?
01:49 paramat      "doesn't fit every use case" we can't support every use case anyone thinks up, not even a paid dev team would do that
01:50 benrob0329   *sigh*
01:52 paramat      GreenDimond you're confusing usecases with significant usefulness. as i already wrote, it's easy to think up a use case for anything however silly
01:52 GreenDimond  It is significantly useful
01:53 paramat      benrob sorry catching up, we can consider usecases you give, those last 2 may be useful
01:56 benrob0329   Useful is very relative in the gaming world. What one game considers essential may be completely useless to another.
02:00 paramat      yeah. but following that we would have to add everything anyone thinks of, but we can't =) we have to look for general and significant usefulness
02:00 GreenDimond  I mean
02:00 GreenDimond  per-player entities sounds pretty significantly useful
02:01 paramat      anyway, it's fine as long as you add usecases to your request, 'it would be nice' just isn't good enough ;)
02:01 benrob0329   I'll compile a list of the most useful ones
02:01 paramat      'sounds' proves nothing
02:03 paramat      sorry to appear grumpy, but consider you are asking unpaid volunteers with near-zero time to code something complex, it's considerate to state a significant use or need
02:04 paramat      one thing that irritates core devs is being treated like we're mojang, as if we can do all the things professional games do. MT has to be simpler due to it being unpaid work
02:05 paramat      not necessarily saying you're doing this, but it happens generally
02:06 benrob0329   I don't ever expect anything I request to get implemented unless I do it myself. That's the trade off with open source. I'd have to be putting large bounties on all of my issues for that :P
02:08 paramat      it's even worse in open source because absolutely everyone can request features, so inevitably we have to say 'no' a lot
02:11 paramat      compared to a professional game we have far less core dev time, but also far higher numbers of requests. it's very hard to deal with this without disappointing people. being a FOSS core dev is extremely difficult =)
02:11 GreenDimond  I mean
02:11 GreenDimond  sounds like this is a relatively simple addition
02:11 GreenDimond  Considering particles already have this function
02:18 GreenDimond  paramat: I keep going back to mobs visible to specific players
02:19 paramat      then there's the choice between attending to requests and having to say no, or ignoring requests. in this situation the better core dev becomes the less popular core dev. it's very tempting to ignore requests to be more popular, but i put a lot of effort into attending to issues. meh
02:19 GreenDimond  That can be used for numerous things, not just hallucinations
02:20 GreenDimond  benrob0329: I already added one thing to entities, maybe Ill do this one myself too :/
09:30 nerzhul      @channel : i just pushed to master a commit which fixed the performance problem on sqlite3, we had a bug which write player on each save instead of saving them only if modified
09:30 nerzhul      (same problem on postgres but less visible)
10:25 Krock        hi imaginary tenplus1
10:28 nerzhul      Krock :o
10:29 nerzhul      Krock: did you see my commit on master this morning, fixing some anoying save bugs ?
10:29 Krock        yes. wrong named function
10:29 Krock        but seems functionally OK
10:30 nerzhul      which ?
10:31 Krock        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c1d7dbfc38e8f48b42d957afad2696a8e56b740b#diff-867322eb97b1d96001510bc7dfaf4225R227
10:31 nerzhul      you mean onSuccessfulSave ?
10:31 Krock        camelCase
10:31 Krock        yes
10:31 nerzhul      okay fixing
10:31 Krock        no it's ok
10:32 Krock        just tiny things
10:33 nerzhul      too late :p
10:34 nerzhul      i am very happy to find this because of the sqlite3 default backend PR, else we would have found it after release i think :(
10:34 nerzhul      yeah i'm enthusiast this morning :D
13:20 nerzhul      @channel is there anybody with android 5 or older device ?
13:20 nerzhul      i will generate an apk with a libgmp fix (if possible) i need to ensure it works
13:24 jas_         paramat: and it's appreciated.
13:31 rubenwardy   Emulator?
13:32 nerzhul      rubenwardy i don't have that on my machine at work
13:32 nerzhul      and at home the GL abstraction layer is not working on 3D engines :(
13:32 rubenwardy   Ah right
13:47 Krock        Android/CyanogenMod 4.1.2/10
13:47 Krock        is that supported, nerzhul ?
13:48 Calinou      4.1 is very old, I doubt it
13:48 Krock        thus I'm asking
13:49 nerzhul      in stable-0.4 it should
13:49 nerzhul      Krock : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/releases/download/0.4.17.1/Minetest-0.4.17.3.apk
13:49 nerzhul      take that
13:49 nerzhul      it should crash
13:49 nerzhul      (with libgmp error)
13:50 nerzhul      i'm building the new version
13:53 Krock        yes, it crashes before loading the main screen
13:53 Krock        I expected more debug info though
14:01 nerzhul      let me some minutes to generate with mini gmp
14:01 nerzhul      i'm fighting with the global Android.mk to replace gmp :p
14:02 nerzhul      it's compiling we will see if we can get an apk
14:13 nerzhul      erf linking issue with mini-gmp
15:30 nerzhul      Krock are you there  ? :)
15:30 Krock        no, I'm in #-dev
16:32 benrob0329   Krock: I keep being told that things like particles (and other things) can be used to impliment some of these use cases, but I have yet to be told conceptually how the heck that would work
16:33 Krock        1) spawn particle spawner
16:33 Krock        2) profit
16:34 benrob0329   But like, particles can't use animated textures or change textures iirc
16:34 Krock        you can specify a texture and lifespan. basics for temporary visual effects
16:34 benrob0329   and if you want to have anything three-dimentional it goes out the window immediately
16:35 Krock        they can't because you cannot index the particles. they're just sent to display client-side
16:35 Krock        yes, possibly just 2D-shape. Dunno whether other stuff is available
16:35 * Krock      points at docs
16:36 * benrob0329 double checks
16:37 benrob0329   ok, so they can use animated textures
16:37 benrob0329   but that's about it
16:37 benrob0329   that doesn't really help if you want say, a GPS-style navigational display or something
16:38 benrob0329   which would be really cool for some servers
16:38 benrob0329   or if you wanted anything other than sprites for effects
16:59 Fixer        I have android 4.0 """mediaplayer" that I never used due to shitty wifi signal, now it is outdated AF and I have no devices to hook it since it is hdmi (apart from TV), and seems like hdmi adapters are much more ... complex shit
17:01 nerzhul      i think i will rework my particle weather PR , i don't know how, for 5.1
17:02 nerzhul      to permit use irrlicht particle generators
17:02 nerzhul      with that server owners can generate lasers, flamethrowers and more haha
17:03 Fixer        remember that epic bug with explosions causing large fps drops for everyone on the server? i member
17:03 Fixer        sometimes i'm not exactly useless
17:04 benrob0329   nerzhul: what happened to the general PR for irrlicht particles?
17:05 nerzhul      yeah but the problem is not particles it's the mapblock updates
17:05 nerzhul      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7519
17:05 benrob0329   that seems like it'd be fairly high-priority considering how bad our current particles perform
17:06 benrob0329   doing anything even remotely complex with them results in a massive drop in performance
17:06 nerzhul      benrob0329 i think i will make this PR different on 5.1
17:06 nerzhul      but yes
17:07 benrob0329   nerzhul: there was a PR for it a while ago, was abondoned though iirc
17:08 nerzhul      benrob0329 we are trying to close the merge windows of 5.0.0 and it's nearly done :)
17:10 benrob0329   nerzhul: 5.0 or the Irrlicht Particles PR?
17:10 nerzhul      5.0
17:10 benrob0329   both sound nice to have in a stable form
17:11 nerzhul      i'm pushing for releasing 5.0.0 before end of the month
17:11 benrob0329   wow
17:11 nerzhul      but other devs are very busy
17:11 nerzhul      Here is the current milestone form https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestone/9
17:18 benrob0329   You know, it'd be cool if someone made a good commertial game using the MT engine and used the money towards paying the core devs
17:29 rubenwardy   like Multicraft?
17:29 rubenwardy   already happens
17:30 rubenwardy   not much though
17:30 benrob0329   "good"
17:30 benrob0329   not "same crap again, slightly different"
18:27 BillyS       Is there a program to export a minetest map to some other file like a .obj, .x, or .blend?
18:34 BillyS       Apparently not
18:36 benrob0329   BillyS: there was
18:36 BillyS       It wasn't updated for new map formats I suppose?
18:37 benrob0329   dunno, I'd have to dig for it at this point
19:19 celeron55    this one, but it's 4 years old https://github.com/prestidigitator/minetest-mod-blockexport/
19:19 celeron55    i think it's designed for 3d printing so probably not suitable for whatever else target you have
19:20 celeron55    https://www.instructables.com/id/Minetest-and-3D-Printing/
19:21 VanessaE     related, https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2640546
19:21 VanessaE     :)
19:25 benrob0329   wasn't there some Minetest merch as well that supported the devs?
19:29 nerzhul      a wild celeron55 appears => master ball
20:31 Fixer        he uses teleport and then sleeps for few years
20:34 nerzhul      fuck it was a abra
20:43 Sokomine     hm :-) printing out houses might be fun. except that...well...the textures would be missing. and we'd run into the same problem that exists rl: the houses take up space. hard discs or ssds can accomodate far more buildings i'm afraid...
20:43 * Sokomine   secretly prints some houses on VanessaEs printer and stores them there
20:51 Calinou      benrob0329: it's not listed anymore on https://www.minetest.net/development/#donate
20:52 Calinou      but yeah, mugs were up for sale a while ago (printed by Cafepress)
21:05 benrob0329   I'd buy a T Shirt
21:09 Calinou      I would too, if it was shippable for cheap to France
21:11 Krock        really? where's the opensource philosophy there? Buy an image to burn it onto any shirt you like. make -jIRON
21:12 Calinou      heh
21:12 Calinou      you can do that too, but it's probably more expensive
21:12 Krock        ./burn shirt.iso -o empty_shirt
21:12 Calinou      mktshirt -DCOLOR=white
21:12 Krock        mktshirt -DCOLOR=white | burn minetest_logo.iso
21:15 benrob0329   I mean, you could use those printable inkjet iron on things, but they don't work very well in my experience