Time  Nick           Message
00:16 * Jordach      reconstructs the sunrise texture algo in Lua
00:21 BillyS         Hmm
00:21 BillyS         Does inv:set_size clear the list
00:21 BillyS         ?
00:24 rubenwardy     no
00:24 rubenwardy     you want     set_list("name", {})
00:33 Jordach        lmao wtf
00:34 Jordach        whoever designed the sunrise maths is either a genius or someone didn't reuse it elsewhere
13:38 * tumeninodes  is making some plans, working on bringing some Verne to the Minetest world
13:39 tumeninodes    and this is where some steampunk-ish-ness can/will come into play
13:43 tumeninodes    so Google calls their latest round of garbage "improvements/updates" they have killed the functionality and speed of gmail to add fancy eyecandy for the masses
13:47 jas_           i like the index app for github anyway
13:47 jas_           also use fasthub app..
13:47 jas_           uh, inbox* not index
13:47 jas_           lol
13:49 jas_           hm, that doesn't make the statement anyless off topic, tho huh.. i keep thinking [off] means off-topic lmao
13:53 tumeninodes    Mum :D
13:53 jas_           ok
13:54 jas_           so whatcha workin' on tumeni?
13:54 tumeninodes    I'm slowly switching over to tutanota but, the process is slow
13:54 jas_           i hear steampunk, i liked the screenshots
13:54 jas_           idk wat that is
13:54 tumeninodes    oh... the Vernian work I am planning out
13:54 jas_           what texture sizes do you like working with?  i take it you like much bigger than 16px?
13:55 tumeninodes    Gameplay based on Jules Verne
13:55 jas_           excellent!
13:55 tumeninodes    I used to early on but have been sticking with 16px for a while now
13:55 tumeninodes    everything in those shots are 16px
13:55 jas_           oic.  i thought from the screenshots/videos it was higher.  very nice builds/textures.  oh wow, 16px huh
13:56 jas_           good.  it can be run multiplayer remotely?
13:56 jas_           i mean, it won't be too big
13:56 jas_           or require too much bandwidth
13:57 tumeninodes    but some Jules Verne stories could convert pretty well to games,texturepacks, etc
13:57 jas_           oh, i imagined you doing a whole game
13:57 tumeninodes    that's what I am planning
13:57 jas_           but you're right.  it saddens me that A) games cannot ship with worlds, and B) there are no soundpacks.  better to have archives with sounds/worlds/textures... all media, distributed as packs
13:58 jas_           (you know, i know i beat a dead horse here but: doom wads did it first, and doom wads zipped up is how it's done elsewhere..)
13:58 jas_           good to hear
13:58 jas_           i really think minetest needs an archive format
13:58 jas_           to pack all it's shit in
13:58 jas_           call it, WAS
13:58 jas_           where's all the shit?
13:59 jas_           (WAD meant where's the data)
13:59 jas_           or where's all the data, i think
13:59 jas_           or at least to allow for soundpacks.  humorously, i believe they are actually referenced in the docs
13:59 jas_           but there's no way to actually do it?  hold on, i'ma look
14:00 tumeninodes    Well, I think it could be done where each story can be put together as a game... with their own world, media... and then bundled them all together and call the bundle 'Vernian' or something idk just starting the plans now
14:01 tumeninodes    some of what nore and sofar did with ITB seems to work somewhat as you are talking
14:02 tumeninodes    I've talked about switching to 'media packs' for a while
14:03 tumeninodes    but talk don't get it done ;)
14:03 jas_           (nevermind, i can't find it, i could swear i saw it tho)
14:03 jas_           media packs yeah exactly
14:03 jas_           well someone has to have the interest and ability
14:03 jas_           if only there were a good issue for it
14:04 jas_           media pack, i like that
14:04 tumeninodes    I think some do... it is more time and priorities at this point
14:04 jas_           mm, yeah, and plus it's not so bad downloading stuff individually
14:04 tumeninodes    (meaning some do have the interest and ability(
14:04 jas_           ok, and then add energy and inclination
14:05 tumeninodes    haha
14:05 tumeninodes    whatever energy is left after IRL
14:05 jas_           but an archive for mt assets is pretty low priority, like u say
14:05 jas_           dun dun dun
14:05 tumeninodes    sofar has a media server which game makers can use
14:05 jas_           i saw that, very cool.  great idea too
14:06 jas_           it reminds me of old ftp sites heh
14:06 jas_           i dunno about it tho, i wonder how it sorts conflicts
14:06 tumeninodes    also the faxt, a user might like this TP... but that sound pack. Being able to mix n match is prob a key idea
14:07 tumeninodes    *fact
14:07 jas_           yes.  that's true, but like modpacks sometimes you want to distribute a particular set.  and perhaps that set can work with some other set or individual mod/tp... it's getting complex to think about
14:08 tumeninodes    but could still target individual sound files and textures from a media pack to create a custom set I guess
14:08 tumeninodes    everything gets complex when you begin to dig and pick
14:08 jas_           it's a lot to sort through.
14:09 tumeninodes    yep... even restructuring folders/files when working on a new game... if you get too fussy it can cause a migraine
14:09 jas_           mine usually evolve from a worldmods/ directory.
14:10 jas_           i just made a node class.  it turned out ok (still gotta fix da bugs), but i can now play hide and seek.
14:10 jas_           heh
14:10 tumeninodes    I separated wood, metal, natural but then come to doors, stairs etc... do you use repetitive code or just leave those in default?
14:10 tumeninodes    I am still working that out in my head and it hurts
14:11 jas_           if you can abstract stuff and work on it on a higher level perhaps you can do it without disruption
14:11 jas_           but currently i prefer disruption, and am just hacking through MTG and mods
14:11 jas_           butchering 3d_armor/multiskin
14:11 jas_           i tried submods, talk about a migraine
14:11 tumeninodes    I could just break doors and stairs down to lua files... and then register them in their own respective mods wood/meta;/nature, etc
14:12 jas_           well
14:12 jas_           one option is to remove everything from mtg/stairs and mtg/doors
14:12 jas_           except the api
14:13 tumeninodes    I remember Markubu was separating things into individual material... like acacia wood all on its own, then pine wood, so on...
14:13 jas_           then register everything yourself?  maybe i'm not understanding the problem exactly
14:13 jas_           oh the files?
14:13 jas_           oh i see
14:13 jas_           items.lua, function.lua, ..
14:14 jas_           i dunno, there's gotta be a million ways to organize projects.  i bet whole books have been written!
14:15 tumeninodes    no your not misunderstanding... I was babbling about the way I have split things (materials) out so far but, then when it comes to stairs and doors... I may just set the apis out as lua files (folderless mods) and then register the stairs and doors in their respective mods outside of default
14:15 jas_           no i was definitely babbling i said the same thing you did only in a question
14:15 jas_           (just realized ha)
14:15 tumeninodes    haha
14:15 jas_           well on that note, i'ma look at this node class :) good chatting !
14:16 tumeninodes    but you have to decide on what the limit is when you want to restrutcture or it can turn into a mess
14:16 tumeninodes    ttyl have fun
14:16 jas_           there is no limit
14:16 jas_           ttfn
14:20 jordach_       i'm figuring out how i solved directional fog with uh custom supplied fog
14:20 jordach_       this is what's going on right now lmao https://gfycat.com/BetterInfantileAiredale
14:21 rubenwardy     Doesn't MT use radial fog, not directional fog?
14:22 jordach_       directional tinting
14:22 tumeninodes    pretty nice looking... what's the flickerin gthough... is that just from loading chunks?
14:22 jordach_       flickering is post fog tint fighting the set_sky call
14:22 tumeninodes    MT needs to use radial sound :P
14:22 tumeninodes    ahhh
14:23 tumeninodes    make it behave then ;)
14:23 jordach_       return m_visible ? m_bgcolor : m_fallback_bg_color;
14:23 jordach_       ^ there's the little shit
14:24 tumeninodes    heh
14:24 tumeninodes    that's life in Pandora's box
14:24 jordach_       that's life in the mess of Minetest's skybox
14:24 jordach_       giant hack to z-buffer is how i'd accurately describe it
14:25 tumeninodes    that's just one of the messes xD
14:25 jordach_       it's easy to add your own Lua API calls and packet handling, than it is to make the sky behave
14:26 tumeninodes    seems as though it's easier and more pleasant to scoop your eye out with a spoon too
14:28 tumeninodes    rebuild it all from scratch and have it ready for 7.0.0 :D
14:29 jordach_       i would, but paramat tends to get defensive when his crap programmer art gets threatened /s
14:29 tumeninodes    should start naming MT releases after Sith Lords
14:32 tumeninodes    well, there's just no arguing against that beautiful sky render you posted the other day (yesterday?) with 15,000 stars... once people see that, it will beat down any defenses anyway
14:32 tumeninodes    brb
14:32 jordach_       *against a blender rendered skybox texture*
14:45 jordach_       POGGERS
14:45 jordach_       skybox and plain fog works with directional fog
15:00 jordach_       tumeninodes, https://gfycat.com/NippyTenderAntbear
15:28 IhrFussel      Hi guys^^ ... uh what is this post? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=337770#p337770 ... implying that Android has no official client? Which is utterly wrong
15:33 IhrFussel      Replied...sometimes I wonder why people post about something they didn't even check first
15:38 tumeninodes    Jordach, so beautiful! OBS does it all a horrible unjustice though
15:55 IhrFussel      I hope I didn't lie here https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=337788#p337788
15:58 IhrFussel      I honestly wonder how such a game breaking issue took even this long to be fixed (and app has yet to be updated) but that's MT I guess
15:59 rubenwardy     If you're refering to GL_ENUM, then that's in the hands of  nerzhul
16:00 IhrFussel      I know that and I hope he plans to do it before Christmas still ... but the actual fixing of the bug took way too long IMO
16:02 IhrFussel      I mean we don't know how many devices are affected... my cheap Wiko phone isn't for example but multiple people reported it in the forum which usually means there are a lot more who are effected but don't bother to report
16:02 nerzhul        i answer on the forum
16:02 IhrFussel      affected*
16:02 nerzhul        i need feedbacks from the published APK
16:03 nerzhul        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/releases/download/0.4.17.1/Minetest-0.4.17.1-3.apk
16:03 nerzhul        this apk
16:03 rubenwardy     You already have: it doesn't work
16:04 nerzhul        then i don't have a such solution currently
16:04 nerzhul        but will look at this , at least during the feature freeze
16:06 IhrFussel      Who said it doesn't work?
16:06 IhrFussel      When was the apk compiled?
16:06 IhrFussel      Cause the person who said "it still does this" posted it on Nov 29
16:10 * tumeninodes  brings recordings.txt from the camera mod to an editor to see about some way to convert to a vid format.... then quietly closes said editor and moves on as if nothing ever happened
16:13 VanessaE       rubenwardy, don't forget the issue I reported too, as part of "it doesn't work"
16:14 tumeninodes    Vanessa, you get power .net back yet?
16:14 VanessaE       power is fine
16:14 VanessaE       net is still down
16:14 tumeninodes    holy shit... I feel for ya
16:15 VanessaE       trying to use a phone to get my fix is.... painful :P
16:16 tumeninodes    I know, I've tried that before during outages... sucks big time
16:16 IhrFussel      VanessaE, so you reported the newly compiled apk to "not work" ? Or do you mean something else?
16:16 tumeninodes    and tethering always sucks ass as well
16:16 VanessaE       it wouldn't be so bad if I coulf just hook up my keyboard
16:17 VanessaE       ihrfussel
16:17 VanessaE       ...
16:17 tumeninodes    bluetooth kybd... just sayin
16:17 tumeninodes    for mergancies
16:17 VanessaE       ihrfussel: broken as of ... was it yesterday? or sunday.
16:18 IhrFussel      I was talking about the chat spam in the Android version the spamming of GL_ENUM
16:18 VanessaE       don't have one, tumeni.
16:18 VanessaE       ihr: i'm tslking about a straight-up crash on start.
16:18 VanessaE       talking*
16:19 VanessaE       (ruben filed an issue about it)
16:19 IhrFussel      Oh so the version nrz linked above just crashes on startup? I see
16:19 VanessaE       lemme try that one...
16:20 IhrFussel      Or are you talking about 5.0.0-dev? Cause I mean the 0.4.17.1 fix
16:20 tumeninodes    my kid had a tablet that came with a case with built in kybd... plugs into the tablet... this also works for a phone.. onscreen keyboards suck unless you're like 1 to 25 yo
16:20 IhrFussel      That apk ^ is just 0.4.17.1 bugfix release
16:21 VanessaE       dude save me somd typing and read the issue
16:21 IhrFussel      nerzhul, can you tell us when you compiled your bugfix apk? If it was today or yesterday then it#s vitually impossible that someone already tested it
16:21 IhrFussel      virtually*
16:22 nerzhul        no it was when the problem was reported and stujones11 suggested irrlicht was compiled in debug mode
16:22 IhrFussel      BUT...you didn't push it to the play store so people who complain still likely use the apk from the play store
16:23 IhrFussel      You need to make the above link more visible...maybe as news
16:23 VanessaE       as for the above apk, I can't seem to use it.  link just opens, closes a browser tab without giving me a download notice
16:23 nerzhul        it's not an official release it's a test release
16:23 nerzhul        go to minetest releases on GH
16:24 nerzhul        you will find it with 0.4.17.1
16:24 nerzhul        it's the -3 apk
16:24 IhrFussel      I know but if yu don't post it somewhere where it's visible well enough then barely anyone will try it
16:24 IhrFussel      you*
16:24 IhrFussel      99% of people expect new versions to be pushed to the play store directly
16:25 tumeninodes    it's not a new version
16:25 IhrFussel      It is a new bugfix release
16:25 tumeninodes    not yet especially if it does not fix the bug
16:25 IhrFussel      And that also got pushed to google play directly when 0.4.17.1 released
16:26 IhrFussel      People expect their app store to tell them when something new exists... this is just how society works these days
16:28 VanessaE       nerz: nope.  -3 still crashes on start.
16:28 tumeninodes    if the general public had access to the -3 apk... they would all have a crach instead of a working build with some bugs
16:28 tumeninodes    bigger mess than masses with a buggy version
16:28 IhrFussel      Maybe it's enough when you find 3 or so people who will install from github ... and then you just have to hope that it's fixed for everybody
16:29 IhrFussel      tumeninodes, that is why I suggested to post it as news or something where people see it better instead of just one random topic under "Problems"
16:29 tumeninodes    better those 3 who know how and how to test and how to report than a thousand who think it's just a new release
16:30 tumeninodes    why would you push something untested to the app store?
16:31 IhrFussel      I didn't say that it needs to be pushed (it could be pushed as Beta release, not sure how much work it is to have 2 channels on Google Play)
16:32 IhrFussel      But right now barely anyone will see that there is a testing apk available ... like I said if those few people who test it are enough then it will be fine ... but according to VanessaE that app crashes...I will test it myself now
16:35 IhrFussel      It starts on my phone
16:37 IhrFussel      I cannot say if it fixes the GL_ENUM bug cause it never happened on it, but the apk works ... I'm in SP
16:40 IhrFussel      nerzhul, 0.4.17.20 correct?
16:40 nerzhul        i can't remember, i'm not on my home pc
16:40 nerzhul        it's the 0.4.17.1-3 apk on GH releases pages
16:40 VanessaE       in my case the -3 apk has the same crash as in my/ruben's report
16:40 nerzhul        the crash fixed in master ?
16:40 VanessaE       cannoy
16:40 VanessaE       ...
16:40 IhrFussel      That's the one I downloaded and it works
16:41 VanessaE       cannot locate symbol "stderr" in libgmp.so
16:42 VanessaE       I can't use 5.0/master.  I only run 0.4.x.
16:42 IhrFussel      Well it makes sense if something you use there only targets API level 23+
16:42 IhrFussel      It won't work on older Android versions
16:43 IhrFussel      VanessaE, what's your Android version?
16:43 IhrFussel      API level 23 requires at least Android 6.0.0
16:44 IhrFussel      6.0*
16:44 VanessaE       wat
16:44 VanessaE       fuck that.
16:45 IhrFussel      That explains perfectly why it works on my phone with Android 7.0
16:45 VanessaE       as for version, 4.3 I think.  Samsung Galaxy S4
16:46 VanessaE       ard you seriously trying to make that the min. Android version?  are you fucking INSANE
16:46 IhrFussel      0.4.17 HAS TO support Android 4.1+ or so I think...that's what the original 0.4.17 supported AFAIK
16:47 IhrFussel      No, the devs likely just use something they didn't know would break on old Android versions
16:47 IhrFussel      Wouldn't be the first time
16:47 VanessaE       I sure hope that's the case.
16:48 IhrFussel      Like sfan5 said in the GH issue "we target the much lower [API level] 14"
16:49 IhrFussel      Which means 4.0
16:49 VanessaE       minetest needs to run on ooold versions becuase our userbase isn't gonna spenc $600 on new hardware, not in this economy
16:49 VanessaE       spend*
16:49 sfan5          VanessaE: it's not insane from a developer standpoint, Android's libc is very lacking in basic features and has lots of problematic behaviour
16:50 IhrFussel      sfan already pretty much confirmed that it's just a f*ck up on someone's part
16:50 VanessaE       it IS insane, sfan5
16:50 sfan5          just look at the example: android 6.0 just to use stderr?? that's stupid
16:50 sfan5          that said, I think it's just an oversight in this case as there is no consensus to raise the min api level
16:50 IhrFussel      Maybe the "Update Android-Java" PR caused this?
16:51 VanessaE       but if its just a minor error (stderr
16:51 VanessaE       ? ;) ) that's fine.
16:53 VanessaE       sorry to be a crab.  this lack of internet on my PC is getting to me. :P
16:58 IhrFussel      I'm looking for the fault commit that added 'stderr'
16:59 tenplus1       hi folkas
16:59 tenplus1       *folks
16:59 VanessaE       hi
17:00 rud0lf         polkas
17:00 VanessaE       polka you eyes out :P
17:00 tenplus1       lol, hi Vanessa + rud0lf
17:00 rud0lf         hi
17:01 rud0lf         are you making us a pair?
17:01 tenplus1       lol
17:03 tenplus1       Hoppers mod updated with new nodetimer tweak
17:03 tenplus1       am using your autocrafter on Xanadu Vanessa
17:07 IhrFussel      HI tenplus1
17:07 tenplus1       hi fussel
17:08 tumeninodes    on an off note, I'm gonna figure out how to transplant eyebrows to the head. After a certain age, that's the only thing which grows, extraordinarily fast :P (possibly nose and ear hair too) gones be rich
17:08 VanessaE       hahahah
17:08 tenplus1       lol
17:09 tumeninodes    wth is the 'autocrafter'? Now players don't even need to actually "craft"? 0_0
17:10 tenplus1       yeah it's kinda lazy but well used surprisingly...
17:10 tenplus1       at least not it works with hoppers so you can keep the ingredients loaded and take care of output
17:11 IhrFussel      HOLD ON... so 'libgmp.so' adds that 'stderr' to Android code and it is NOT part of MT right? That means if you try to compile with the newest lib version it seems it will break Android?
17:11 VanessaE       they're indispensinle for factories
17:11 tumeninodes    so you removed one of the 2 main goals of MTG... craft and eat, might as well make an autoeater too xD
17:11 tenplus1       and a few sortingpipes to keep the flow works wonders :D
17:12 IhrFussel      It's definitely to do with that lib cause it references 'stderr'
17:17 tenplus1       fussel, is this a new error that's appeared in 5.0 ?
17:19 VanessaE       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7963
17:19 tenplus1       ouch!
17:27 VanessaE       well the 5.0 apk runs but of coursd I can't connect to my servers with it since they run 0.4.x
17:28 tenplus1       that's what stops me testing 5.0n
17:28 VanessaE       also scrolling the server list is shitty.
17:28 tumeninodes    stderr neds to be redirected maybe?
17:28 tumeninodes    *e
17:29 VanessaE       tumeni: needs *defined* somehow.
17:30 tumeninodes    hmm, idk... Android is an odd duck since day 1 anyway yet somehow it became a top contender in all things pc
17:32 tenplus1       is it a specific android version it croaks on ?
17:33 tumeninodes    and google really needs to learn how to strip their code down significantly. every required/base app needed to use Android are enormous in size and take up far too much space on fixed internal storage
17:34 tenplus1       agree'd, android is bloated with so much google crap it's unreal... that's why I like LineageOS on mobile, base android
17:34 rubenwardy     usually it's not google crap that bloats it
17:35 tenplus1       the manufacturers of the phone add their own crap also....  hi ruben
17:35 tumeninodes    android system webview 77.55mb
17:36 tumeninodes    gmail 75.19mb
17:36 tenplus1       basically chromium library
17:36 tenplus1       hi gael
17:36 Gael-de-Sailly hi tenplus1
17:37 tumeninodes    play books 57.56mb, play games 38.50mb, play services 278mb, play store 74.18mb
17:37 tumeninodes    so..., seriously?
17:37 tenplus1       scarey...  I have all that disabled...
17:38 tenplus1       a nice tiny app called "Yalp Store" lets you install from google app store without running in background
17:38 tumeninodes    but those are required to run android as "android"
17:38 tumeninodes    I'll def check that out
17:38 tumeninodes    but it's worse bloatware than MS windows
17:39 tenplus1       most of it you can disable or use an app to remove without rooting
17:39 tumeninodes    on a much smaller formfactor
17:39 tumeninodes    I rooted a phone once....
17:39 tumeninodes    once
17:40 IhrFussel      VanessaE, wait wait wait...so the crash only happens in the 0.4.17.1-3 apk by nrz? Cause you just said 5.0.0 runs
17:40 VanessaE       ihr, correct.
17:40 VanessaE       well 0.4.17.1, .2, .1-3
17:40 tumeninodes    prob with all the google main apps is, they cannot be set to external storage (they would not work if they were anyway)
17:40 IhrFussel      Then nerzhul likely compiled with some unsupported lib version
17:41 rubenwardy     *sdcard
17:41 tumeninodes    the oes I listed cannot be moved to sd
17:41 tumeninodes    they give no option to move them
17:42 rubenwardy     internal storage = apps, services, etc    external storage = files, photos, etc
17:42 rubenwardy     it's a stupid Android-specific term
17:42 tumeninodes    correct
17:42 rubenwardy     you can have internal storage on an SDCard
17:42 rubenwardy     but not all apps support it :)
17:43 rubenwardy     to make things better, Minetest saves things on    /sdcard0/     which isn't an sdcard
17:43 tumeninodes    you mean "most" of the main apps
17:43 rubenwardy     and there's no good API to work with SD cards
17:43 tumeninodes    does it really? sneaky buggers
17:43 tenplus1       hrmm
17:43 rubenwardy     everyone probably just copies a stackoverflow answer
17:44 rubenwardy     I'm happy now that I have sufficient storage
17:44 rubenwardy     32GB
17:44 IhrFussel      On my phone the Minetest folder is in /storage/emulated/0/Minetest
17:44 rubenwardy     yeah, I think /sdcard0/ is an alias
17:44 tumeninodes    same thing just diff wording
17:44 rubenwardy     or I may have made it
17:44 rubenwardy     up
17:44 tumeninodes    xD
17:45 IhrFussel      Or the folder structures are vendor specific
17:45 tumeninodes    HTC still pushes a club/store which has not existed for a while now haha
17:46 tenplus1       if we had a basekernel that supported allof the mobile devices we could replace with something smaller/more configurable
17:46 tumeninodes    they still leave all that old decrepid bits in their code for their phones
17:47 tumeninodes    well, it really says what a pia the mobile platform is when canonical/ubuntu drop kicked it
17:48 tenplus1       canonical ?
17:48 tumeninodes    ubuntu's babies'daddy
17:48 benrob0329     tumeninodes: I mean, KDE Mobile is a thing, as is fairphone and Purism's WIP phone line
17:49 tenplus1       yay for Purism and KDE mobile :) they both look good and use linux (not android)
17:49 tumeninodes    I have not even looked at KDE in soooo long
17:49 tenplus1       am running Kubuntu 18.10 on my other desktop, it runs very well indeed...
17:50 tumeninodes    I'm still pissed about losing 3.5 :P
17:50 benrob0329     Purism is using GNOME as the base, which does apparently work as there was a company who are already doing it
17:50 benrob0329     tumeninodes: its quite nice nowadays
17:50 benrob0329     Not real heavy, a lot less buggy than it used to be
17:50 tumeninodes    what's Purism... VoiP?
17:50 tenplus1       my full kde desktop is using 248mb memory... that's smaller than xubuntu's xfce
17:50 tumeninodes    oh wow
17:51 tumeninodes    shit...
17:51 tenplus1       purism is behind the Librem13 phone (linux phone)
17:51 benrob0329     A Linux Laptop manufacturer, who are making a phone line
17:51 * tumeninodes  mossies over to kde websight
17:51 tumeninodes    Im still stuck on cinnamon....
17:51 tumeninodes    don;t judge me
17:51 tenplus1       also if you install Kubuntu 18.10 there's a PPA available to get latest kde libs
17:51 * benrob0329   installs Debian testing on his desktop
17:52 tenplus1       https://www.plasma-mobile.org/ + 100000000000
17:52 benrob0329     Honestly I'm not real impressed with Kubuntu and Neon
17:52 tenplus1       hi benrob
17:53 benrob0329     Probably because they're both Ubuntu based :P
17:53 tumeninodes    Oooooooo.. aint that purty
17:53 benrob0329     Hello tenplus1
17:53 tenplus1       o/ twoelk
17:53 benrob0329     KDE Connect is especially useful
17:53 twoelk         o/
17:53 benrob0329     Hello twoelk
17:53 twoelk         \o
17:54 tumeninodes    heyyyy wait a sec???? it's still a prototype DOH
17:54 tenplus1       am just amazed that a fully features desktop loaded with apps runs a lot smoother than most lightweight desktops
17:54 * tumeninodes  shoots a spitball at benrob
17:54 sofar          clearlinux has the plasma desktop, now, too </ADVERTISEMENT>
17:54 tenplus1       hi sofar
17:55 * twoelk       looks at his fully loaded desktop and imagines scraping it accross the floor
17:55 sofar          sup 013
17:55 tumeninodes    but who's to say KDE does not drop ass like ubuntu mobile did? just later
17:55 tumeninodes    still in prototype stage
17:55 tenplus1       ubuntu mobile is still going, just released OTA6 start of decembet
17:55 benrob0329     tumeninodes: they arent a company? Its being used by other ROMs?
17:55 twoelk         oh, the E does not stand for eternity?
17:57 benrob0329     sofar: isn't there a no advertising rule or something? :P
17:58 tumeninodes    huh... why the hell did I think Ubuntu dropped the dev on this?
17:59 tenplus1       UBports has control of Unity phone now :)
17:59 benrob0329     Probably for the same reason they dropped Unity
17:59 tenplus1       and yet unity ran better than gnome3 crap
18:00 benrob0329     Ehh, maybe better than the current Ubuntu stock
18:00 benrob0329     But that's not saying much
18:00 benrob0329     Gnome 3 runs quite decently vanilla
18:00 tenplus1       never had any trouble with current ubuntu distro's...
18:00 benrob0329     *in its vanilla state
18:00 benrob0329     Ubuntu tacks a bunch if stuff on
18:00 tumeninodes    Mint Mobile
18:01 tenplus1       lol
18:01 tumeninodes    that would be awesome
18:01 tenplus1       if they were able to run linux on arm mobiles then we could run linux software which would be easier than compiling for android
18:02 sofar          if only atom based phones existed
18:02 tumeninodes    :)
18:02 sofar          wait
18:02 tenplus1       wait, atom as in chromium html5 libs ?
18:02 sofar          Intel Atom CPU
18:02 benrob0329     tenplus1: I just have a very bad opinion of the entire Ubuntu family, had bad experiences with then (recently)
18:02 tumeninodes    come sail away with sailfishOS
18:03 benrob0329     RISC 5 is a thing too
18:03 tumeninodes    shivers
18:03 benrob0329     What? Why does everyone hate RISC5?
18:04 benrob0329     Its better than ARM, actually supports PCIe
18:04 tenplus1       nothing wrong with risc5, it works
18:04 tenplus1       and power9
18:04 rubenwardy     *RISC-V
18:04 rubenwardy     It's the hipster of the ISA world
18:05 benrob0329     ...what?
18:05 benrob0329     How cab you be a "hipster" for new tech?
18:05 tenplus1       pc made only of valves :D
18:06 rud0lf         or electromagnetic-switches cpu
18:06 benrob0329     How can tech be a hipster for itself?
18:06 benrob0329     This description makes no sense
18:06 tumeninodes    hmmm tinypaw linux
18:06 rubenwardy     I personally think that my ISA is the best: https://i.rubenwardy.com/TrhsL.png
18:07 rubenwardy     wait, that's wrong
18:07 rubenwardy     RI type no longer exists
18:07 tenplus1       wb
18:09 tenplus1       tinycore is tiny... 40mb with libs to run mobile would easily make a decent base insteaf of android
18:09 tumeninodes    https://harvey-os.org/
18:10 tenplus1       ooh
18:12 rubenwardy     Currently working on superscalar with out of order and such, painful
18:12 tumeninodes    here, grab this and get to work :P https://github.com/tinyos/tinyos-main
18:14 tenplus1       so many things better than android to run on a mobile that's open and compact
18:14 IhrFussel      VanessaE, is it correct what I say here? Just making sure https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7963#issuecomment-446303781
18:14 tenplus1       google really have to step up their game
18:15 tumeninodes    nah, like windows, android will always be the top mobile player
18:15 tumeninodes    just because... society
18:15 tenplus1       shame
18:15 VanessaE       ihr: no, incorrect.
18:15 rubenwardy     there's 2 issues here
18:16 IhrFussel      But you said earlier 5.0.0 works and only nrz's apk crashes
18:16 tenplus1       wow, do ppl still have mobileswith android 4.0 on it ?!?!
18:16 rubenwardy     1 issue is the GL_INVALID_ENUM
18:16 rubenwardy     another issue is VanessaE's crash
18:16 rubenwardy     tenplus1: unfortunately
18:16 rubenwardy     manufacturers add loads of hacks to make their phone stand out, which then make it hard for them to update
18:16 rubenwardy     hopefully treble with alleviate this
18:17 rubenwardy     and also Google's OTA thing which bypasses OEMs
18:17 tumeninodes    I'm all up to date with Android 5.0.2 :P
18:17 rubenwardy     I like Android though
18:17 tenplus1       I have 6.0 on mines, works but I did c hange the launcher to sometihng smaller
18:17 rubenwardy     lol, that was released 4 years ago
18:17 VanessaE       ihrfussel: 0.4.17.2 in the play store, 0.4.17.1 on minetest.net, and that 0.4.17.1-3 apk all crash in the same way as described in my/ruben's issue
18:17 rubenwardy     I have Nougat
18:17 tumeninodes    yet it still works
18:18 rubenwardy     VanessaE: that APK does not aim to fix your issue
18:18 rubenwardy     only 1)
18:18 rubenwardy     tumeninodes: you have >= 5, so it won't crash
18:18 VanessaE       ruben: as I assumed.
18:18 tumeninodes    ;)
18:18 rubenwardy     We need an automated Android build system so all nerzhul needs to do is download and sign the APK
18:19 tumeninodes    so set it up
18:19 rubenwardy     I have other priorities currently
18:19 IhrFussel      VanessaE, what about 5.0.0-dev apk??
18:19 tumeninodes    you might be able to talk stu into it
18:19 IhrFussel      There are a few available posted in some issues
18:20 tumeninodes    boop, gotta make a phone call bbl
18:20 tenplus1       o/
18:20 Fixer          also, automated AppImage
18:20 Fixer          tenplus1: \o \o \o
18:21 tenplus1       +100 for appimage... I wanna be able to run dev builds without installing
18:21 tenplus1       hi Krock
18:21 Krock          hi tenplus1
18:21 Krock          uuh
18:21 tenplus1       :)
18:21 Krock          I came prepared. Not sure whether I won anything
18:21 * tenplus1     gives Krock a donut
18:22 Krock          thx m8
18:22 tumeninodes    we all missed tenplus1 so much... we made a new one
18:22 nerzhul        rubenwardy it's genious, i thought the same thing today
18:22 tenplus1       hi nerzhul
18:22 nerzhul        the main problem is generally poor support in CI
18:22 VanessaE       ihrfussel: the 5.0.0 apk runs but isn'g useful to me since none of my servers run 5.0.0-dev, anc scrolling the server list is shitty.
18:22 tenplus1       Krock: added the mobs:set_velocity to mobs api, good idea
18:22 nerzhul        but rubenwardy i'm working on it, first i want to provide a docker image for minetest server
18:22 nerzhul        after that i will try to implement gitlab CI android build
18:23 nerzhul        hi tenplus1
18:23 Krock          nerzhul: going to test 7939 (AO PR)
18:25 IhrFussel      VanessaE, this version runs? https://www.dropbox.com/s/bv2eju8s11bfhvx/Minetest-f0dca28.apk?dl=0
18:26 IhrFussel      It's the newest from the forum (Dec 7)
18:27 nerzhul        Krock nice, ty
18:27 nerzhul        don't hesitate to add a mobs mod to test it :)
18:28 tenplus1       what's 7939 ?
18:28 nerzhul        #7939
18:28 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7939 -- Add an activeobject manager to hold active objects by nerzhul
18:29 nerzhul        it's just a refactor PR to enhance the MT code quality, i'm starting to refactor the core engine into smaller parts to make them easier to test
18:29 tenplus1       ooh nice, does it help in any way with the stepheight entity glitch ?
18:29 nerzhul        it's just a refactor pr sorry
18:29 nerzhul        no bugfix, no feature, just quality
18:29 tenplus1       still good :)
18:30 nerzhul        the idea with those refactor is to have tests on code parts to enhance quality & prevent breaking code
18:32 VanessaE       ihrfussel: maybe?  i downloaded what was linked on stu's forum thread an hour or two ago.
18:32 IhrFussel      Yes that one
18:33 nerzhul        and for android sorry but no we cannot just download to sign the apk because it's a release build and cannot be installed without signing on the phone if i remember
18:33 VanessaE       his build runs as far as i could see, for as little as i could use it
18:33 rubenwardy     not true
18:33 rubenwardy     you can install unsigned builds with developer mode enabled at least
18:34 rubenwardy     and to release to the play store, you'd download the unsigned APK and test it
18:35 nerzhul        if we can then it can be useful then
18:35 nerzhul        generally i test on the signed apk :)
18:36 IhrFussel      VanessaE, I hope this is correct now -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7963#issuecomment-446311547
18:36 rubenwardy     *and to release to the play store, you'd download the unsigned APK and sign it
18:36 rubenwardy     testing is god too
18:36 rubenwardy     +o
18:36 nerzhul        i always test the release apk :)
18:37 VanessaE       ihrfussel: yes
18:37 Krock          entity IDs don't get recycled for some reason
18:38 nerzhul        it's the original code they are reycled whne full if i remember
18:40 Krock          hmm https://pastebin.com/raw/iPUAMadQ
18:40 IhrFussel      VanessaE, just to be sure: You tested the stable 0.4.17.1 from the play store, 0.4.17.2 linked somewhere and 0.4.17.1-3 (the most recent posted by nrz) and none of them startup?
18:40 VanessaE       ihrfussel: 0.4.17.2 in the play store, 0.4.17.1 on minetest.net, and that 0.4.17.1-3 apk
18:41 IhrFussel      And the 5.0.0-dev from stu works correctly... how can THAT be
18:42 VanessaE       yes.
18:43 VanessaE       be....cause it's thd master branch, not the 0.4 branch?
18:43 tenplus1       wb benrob
18:43 VanessaE       the*
18:45 IhrFussel      But I mean then there must be something wrong since 0.4.17 release
18:45 VanessaE       yeah, inavliv build env :P
18:45 VanessaE       inavlid*
18:46 IhrFussel      So in the end it seems nrz just uses unsupported libs to compile the Android version
18:46 VanessaE       nerzhul: fix it :P
18:46 tenplus1       lolol
18:47 IhrFussel      Are we sure that nrz also compiled the version for minetest.net?
18:47 VanessaE       ask him :P
18:54 tumeninodes    Im downloading one of the pay to play ones..., then I won;t feel bad about bitchin
18:54 tenplus1       lol
18:54 VanessaE       tumeni: booooo
18:54 tumeninodes    :P thpltpltplt
18:55 tumeninodes    unfortunately Minetest has stopped
18:55 tumeninodes    life is meaningless
18:55 VanessaE       heh
18:56 VanessaE       serves ya right :P
18:56 tumeninodes    dammit
18:57 rud0lf         it's a new feature, not a bug
18:57 rud0lf         it's meant to spend more time active outside
18:57 VanessaE       out...side?
18:57 tumeninodes    must be built to restore morality
18:57 VanessaE       you mean the big blue room?
18:58 tumeninodes    but, but... the zombie apocalypse
18:58 tenplus1       do we need creative to get there ?
18:59 tumeninodes    I can't go outside... I have no privs
18:59 VanessaE       nope strictly survival
18:59 tenplus1       nuuuuu
18:59 VanessaE       hardcore, too
18:59 * tenplus1     needs his admin pick
18:59 tumeninodes    fuck it, I;m out... I can;t do outside
19:00 VanessaE       heh
19:00 * tumeninodes  uninstalls and reinstalls (cuz that might do something)
19:01 rud0lf         "minetest is trying to find solution.." Thread::sleep(5 * 1000)
19:02 tumeninodes    Oooooh... wincraft??? whats this?? 0_0
19:02 tumeninodes    it says 'win' it must be great
19:02 tenplus1       ahaha
19:02 tumeninodes    hmmm MaxiCraft... seriously
19:02 rud0lf         it's like windows, but you need to compile gui
19:02 VanessaE       heh
19:02 rud0lf         Meintest
19:02 tenplus1       er... maxicraft sounds like a hygiene product
19:02 Krock          rud0lf: if you were going to follow the M$ solution path: (after sleep) "cannot find any solution for this problem. try searching for help online"
19:02 rud0lf         for german audience
19:03 tumeninodes    exactly
19:03 Krock          MeinKRAFT
19:03 tumeninodes    looking for craftpon now
19:03 rud0lf         MeinSchaft
19:03 tumeninodes    MeinTits
19:03 tumeninodes    sorry
19:03 rud0lf         :)
19:03 tumeninodes    ^test
19:03 rud0lf         mathtest
19:03 tumeninodes    ew
19:03 tenplus1       DiggyDiggyCraft
19:04 IhrFussel      Someone on the forums got a avatar that says "SAG NEIN ZU MULTIKRAFT"
19:04 tumeninodes    OMG!!!!!
19:04 tumeninodes    tenplus1 that's the bestiest name EVER
19:04 tenplus1       lol
19:04 IhrFussel      No wait it's different
19:04 tumeninodes    so the only tag for minetest is (casual)
19:05 IhrFussel      "MULTIKRAFT? NEIN DANKE"
19:05 tumeninodes    there is nothing 'casual' about MT
19:05 * tumeninodes  can confirm... uninstall reinstall does jack-shite
19:06 tumeninodes    that concludes my bug tracking efforts for today
19:09 tenplus1       so long as the entity glitching into solid walls gets fixed, it's all good :D
19:09 tumeninodes    awww and I SO wanted to try to play on my phone (j/k)
19:09 tumeninodes    uninstall reinstall might fix that :P
19:18 IhrFussel      Are we sure that the Android builds respect all of those bullet points? https://android.googlesource.com/platform/ndk/+/master/docs/user/common_problems.md#using-mismatched-prebuilt-libraries
19:23 VanessaE       nerzhul ^
19:24 IhrFussel      I'm just randomly looking for info that could help with the issue... like this comment on some GH issue https://github.com/android-ndk/ndk/issues/329#issuecomment-419041959
19:31 tenplus1       laters all o/
19:32 tumeninodes    celeron55 and others, any interest in applying to have MT join? https://sfconservancy.org/projects/current/
19:33 tumeninodes    later ten+1 _o_
19:33 jordach_       >Boost
19:33 jordach_       per the dev wiki: >We are using C++11, boost will never be an option
19:39 Krock          boost looks weird tbh
19:40 celeron55      tumeninodes: MT applied this year, but they have a massive queue
19:40 tumeninodes    understood
19:40 celeron55      i.e. no idea what they even think
19:40 tumeninodes    haha
19:41 tumeninodes    sending them a nice Xmas card might help
19:41 tumeninodes    maybe there's $100 in that card... or maybe there isnt
19:42 rubenwardy     loot box bribery
19:42 tumeninodes    (most liekly the latter)'
19:42 celeron55      i'll send a police officer in a box to check this bribery situation
19:42 tumeninodes    0_0
19:44 tumeninodes    always plan some extra for the officers who come to investigate
19:44 tumeninodes    note part of "investigate" is 'invest' ;)
19:44 tumeninodes    and to negate
20:10 IhrFussel      I'm trying the newest Android 5.0.0-dev from the forum and I gotta say you did good work ... I now see ALL menues well sized and only some (longer) text on buttons are cut-off ... that mobile players now have the full main menu and not just some simplified version is also VERY good... I am impressed
20:11 IhrFussel      The Content DB tab works too although it can be very laggy on phones with low performance especially the searching (it can take several seconds until something entered is accepted)
20:14 IhrFussel      And v7 mapgen is slow too n slow phones, but that's to be expected when even high end servers sometimes struggle with map generation
20:24 IhrFussel      The auto jumping on Android is also no issue anymore cause you first go up and then accelerate again
20:28 nerzhul        yeah it's a good android release
20:31 IhrFussel      Now you just need to make sure Android 4.X and 5.X users can run MT again and the GL_ENUM chat spam bug
20:37 IhrFussel      Android 4.X still has a marketshare of ~ 10% and Android 5.X ~ 18% (for the people who think you could abandon those, it would be a bad idea)
20:38 VanessaE       ihrfussel, and fix the main menu server list scrolling
20:46 IhrFussel      BTW there are 3 spam/scam topics in the forum that still haven't been deleted (they were reported hours ago)
21:06 tumeninodes    holding off so everyone can get their bank info so the bannished Prince can stash his money into our accounts ;)
21:07 nerzhul        IhrFussel: current repartition of mt app: https://ibb.co/5L7s04H
21:08 jordach_       4.x is long dead for droid
21:21 IhrFussel      jordach_, if about 10% of recent play store vistors still had 4.X then it's far from dead ... many cheap phones still ship with 4.4
21:25 IhrFussel      nerzhul, I took my numbers from the official Distribution Dashboard
21:25 IhrFussel      https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/
21:26 rubenwardy     yes, we know
21:26 rubenwardy     The screenshot is the version breakdown of *our app*
21:26 rubenwardy     that link is for all play store users
21:27 rubenwardy     there's no point aiming for weak devices that won't be able to run Minetest anyway
21:27 rubenwardy     probably why the older versions are a few percent less in the  actual users
21:31 IhrFussel      My 4.4 phone in 2016 was able to run MT at least decently
21:31 IhrFussel      That's no argument
21:32 IhrFussel      I would call 14 fps on a server with 180 mods OK
21:34 IhrFussel      If you "need" to up the minimum API level you should make it 19 cause there are still enough 4.4 users ... also you forget that with 5.0.0 most other 3rd-party apps won't upgrade (yet) at launch so the expected userbase should grow a lot
21:35 IhrFussel      That could then give a whole different picture of distribution
21:37 IhrFussel      I smell conflicts anyways... if someone sets updates to auto and 5.0.0 releases and the app gets updated and they can suddenly not play on their favorite servers anymore cause they run still on 0.4.X
21:37 Calinou        14 FPS doesn't really sound playable or enjoyable to me
21:37 Calinou        most mobile games target 30 FPS, some 60 FPS
21:37 IhrFussel      Basic MT doesn't need 30 or 60 fps to be playable
21:38 IhrFussel      At ~ 18 gameplay looks pretty fluent
21:41 IhrFussel      Looks like you increased the view range on Android...pretty sure it was 30 before now it's 50
21:41 IhrFussel      That lets fps tank too
21:42 Calinou        but again, view range 30 isn't really enjoyable in my experience, even if you disable fog
21:42 IhrFussel      Android will never be as enjoyable/comfortable as PC ... cause you just don't have the controls you would need
21:43 VanessaE       come on, just let the user decide what is or isn't playable
21:43 IhrFussel      Fightning monsters/other players must be bad on phone
21:45 IhrFussel      v7 takes seconds on many phones to generate 1 chunk ... but it's still included in the Android version
21:46 tumeninodes    idk know how anyone can play MTG on Android. A short while back I did try it out on my phone and the old Nexuz tablet my kid outgrew and it took me 20 min to build a 10x10 wood block with a door
21:47 tumeninodes    I did not notice generation to be that bad, perhaps I was not paying full enough attention though
21:48 IhrFussel      You notice it with fly+fast on
21:49 bobr           hi
21:50 IhrFussel      I'm sure high-end phones can do it faster but budget phones become more and more attractive because they kinda still do what expensive phones do while just looking less slick and having less features (sensors missing, small battery, plastic case)
21:51 jordach_       factoid, my note 8 can run 5.0-dev at 1440p 60fps
21:52 IhrFussel      You get a quad core phone for less than $100 nowadays ... that quad core CPU is maybe not the best but it#s still enough power for most apps
21:52 VanessaE       plus old android does NOT mean slow hardware
21:52 tumeninodes    well V7 on the Android app, it is the most popular and widely used so not sure blocking it from the app will gain any praise
21:53 IhrFussel      1 GB RAM is also enough for > 80% of software
21:53 rubenwardy     disabling features like that is a bad idea
21:53 rubenwardy     mgv7 works perfectly fine on my phone
21:54 rubenwardy     it would be better to have different defaults
21:54 rubenwardy     than to remove features like that
21:54 tumeninodes    ^
21:55 IhrFussel      Or you ask users if they would prefer a "faster generation but less variety" or "slow generation, more variety" mapgen when they create a world
21:55 nerzhul        hey -hub
21:55 nerzhul        does some are interested by a minetest server distribution through docker ?
21:55 jordach_       sounds useful
21:56 nerzhul        #7968
21:56 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7968 -- Add a Dockerfile + gitlab CI build by nerzhul
21:56 jordach_       i don't use docker, but would be useful for less installation and outdated build bollocks
21:57 VanessaE       nerzhul fix the stderr crash in the 0.4.17 apk first
22:00 nerzhul        VanessaE: as i already said years ago you are too rude :D
22:00 nerzhul        the stderr crash is not reproductible on my device
22:00 nerzhul        hard :)
22:00 VanessaE       :P
22:00 tumeninodes    sounds new fangled and scary to me :D
22:00 tumeninodes    but will most likely be quite popular
22:01 VanessaE       nerzhul try it on an older android ver
22:01 nerzhul        VanessaE without the phone ? xD
22:02 tumeninodes    I don't understand why everyone could not just be happy with pong in the late 70s and keep everything right there
22:02 VanessaE       maybe?
22:02 VanessaE       idk how android dev works but isnt there some emulator thats commonly used for this?
22:04 nerzhul        emulator works but badly with GPU emulation
22:04 nerzhul        it's nice when you only use web or android forms, but with GPU it's bad
22:10 IhrFussel      nerzhul, it only happens on Android <6 ! Your device is likely NOT Android 5.1 or less
22:10 nerzhul        yep it's android 6.0
22:10 nerzhul        and i don't have older device
22:11 nerzhul        then telling me to fix a bug i cannot reproduce is a little bit hard :)
22:11 IhrFussel      Then point stderr so something that works on 5.1 and less
22:11 IhrFussel      to*
22:11 IhrFussel      I read something about "#define stderr &some_pointer"
22:11 nerzhul        stderr is just a file descriptor
22:12 nerzhul        it's the pointer 2
22:12 IhrFussel      Which did not exist in Android 5
22:12 sfan5          the correct way to fix this is to make gmp not use stderr
22:12 sfan5          it doesn't need an IO anyway
22:12 sfan5          any*
22:13 nerzhul        sfan5 do you know how to fix that exactly ?
22:13 IhrFussel      Someone I sent the 5.0.0-dev apk also cannot open it (Android 5.1.1)
22:13 sfan5          I don't know where in the gmp source code it uses stderr
22:13 sfan5          the other issue here is that gmp should not even be able to use "stderr" since it's not defined for our api level
22:14 sfan5          is -D__ANDROID_API__=14 being set while compiling gmp?
22:14 nerzhul        i think we are on lesser on 0.4.17, the API increase was done on master only if i remember
22:14 nerzhul        maybe there are some things to backport, but i cannot test them
22:15 VanessaE       you can test if it /runs/
22:15 nerzhul        but it runs already on my phone
22:15 nerzhul        the test is then invalid
22:15 IhrFussel      It will run on his devices because they are too new
22:15 nerzhul        :p
22:15 VanessaE       evrn if it performs poorly.
22:15 nerzhul        android 6.0, 2 years old, too new ? :D
22:15 * VanessaE     sighs
22:15 IhrFussel      The problem is that only devices with old versions crash
22:16 VanessaE       WAY the fuck too new
22:17 VanessaE       carriers dont like to push new android versions for older hw even good hw like my Galaxy S4
22:19 VanessaE       and old != slow
22:22 Calinou        nerzhul: can't an emulator run Minetest?
22:23 Calinou        it doesn't require OpenGL ES 3.0, so even GLES 2.0 acceleration should work
22:23 nerzhul        gpu acceleration doesn't work on my pc, maybe it doesn't work well on linux
22:23 nerzhul        and works on windows, but i don't have a windows
22:23 Calinou        doesn't the emulator have a software fallback anyway?
22:24 IhrFussel      nerzhul, can you please try to set this compiler flag for GMP? -D__ANDROID_API__=14 ... just set it and then offer another apk for testing
22:24 nerzhul        cannot currently, it's late at home and i'm polishing my docker PR and will go to bed
22:24 VanessaE       gah
22:25 * VanessaE     fumes
22:25 nerzhul        sfan5: can you look at #7968 it's ready
22:25 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7968 -- Add a Dockerfile + gitlab CI build by nerzhul
22:25 IhrFussel      Compiling MT should only take a few minutes but okay then
22:25 sfan5          I will
22:25 VanessaE       ty sfan5
22:26 sfan5          what
22:26 VanessaE       nevermind
22:26 VanessaE       misread.
22:27 IhrFussel      I guess we will have to ping stu on GH...maybe he has some more time
22:28 nerzhul        i don't know his timesheet
22:29 tumeninodes    11:30 in Switzerland so I doubt it
22:29 tumeninodes    pm
22:29 * VanessaE     grumbles
22:30 tumeninodes    grumble shields up
22:30 VanessaE       nerzhul, oh and for thd record, calling me rude is ovef the line
22:30 IhrFussel      I'm still up in Germany, 23:30 means nothing
22:30 nerzhul        IhrFussel: if the flag fixes the problem it must be properly implemented in the build system
22:31 tumeninodes    ahh, then you have time to fix it
22:31 tumeninodes    ;)
22:31 nerzhul        or not :D
22:31 IhrFussel      I have time to show urgency of critical issues
22:31 IhrFussel      Sometimes more of that is needed
22:32 VanessaE       if you havd time to irc and mess about with CI crap.......
22:32 IhrFussel      Sometimes people need a kicm in the A ... as harsh as it may sound
22:32 IhrFussel      kick*
22:33 VanessaE       if youre gonna call me rude then you can expect just that.
22:33 nerzhul        i prefer using more fine tools in the A... hahaha
22:33 nerzhul        (yes it's time to go to bed)
22:34 VanessaE       *facepalm*
22:34 Calinou        can we not force people to work on open source projects for free?
22:34 Calinou        please don't pressure people into doing work for you if you're not paying them
22:34 tumeninodes    Calinou I have a set up in my basement for just that purpose
22:34 nerzhul        this will be fixed at maximum for 5.0.0 release
22:34 jordach_       i'm not sure if that sarchasm or someone forgot their no log tag
22:34 tumeninodes    short on duct tape though
22:34 nerzhul        feature freeze has not started then
22:35 VanessaE       calinou:  its about priorities.  crash for 30% of the userbase ought to be tops.
22:35 IhrFussel      Calinou, you can think like that...when I see people DEDICATED to a project in their free time and then not wanting to work on it then I question what the point is
22:35 Calinou        in volunteer-run projects, people usually work on what they want to
22:35 nerzhul        30% of the user base VanessaE ?
22:36 Calinou        it's not a RTS, you don't put 5 people in the school and 5 in the farm :)
22:36 VanessaE       yeah.
22:36 IhrFussel      Critical issues should ALWAYS have the highest priority...whether you like to work on it or not
22:36 VanessaE       apparently that'x abput how much of the m9bile userbase uses an old enough android to crash MT
22:37 tumeninodes    more parents need to go and purchase their kids a proper pc and throw these phones i the trash
22:37 tumeninodes    *in
22:37 VanessaE       gah typos... i hate irc on a pone
22:37 VanessaE       phone*
22:37 IhrFussel      If even the STABLE 0.4.17.1 on the play store has this crash issue ... then it would explain why so few people use it on my server
22:38 jordach_       >expecting professionalism from hobbyist open source
22:38 tumeninodes    ^
22:38 jordach_       how many times in the last three years have i tried explaining that
22:38 jordach_       goes over their heads like a V2 rocket
22:38 tumeninodes    Jjjjjjjshoooom
22:39 VanessaE       nerzhul take 60s anc read the reviews on the play store
22:39 tumeninodes    wait... V2? really? so old and obsolete thats why it's not hittin the target
22:39 nerzhul        sfan5: you inverted, client is built by default not server in cmakelists.txt, trying other suggestions
22:39 sfan5          oh
22:40 nerzhul        VanessaE: the problem with a game is (like on any game working) you will have wrong notices
22:40 VanessaE       nerzhul just do it
22:40 nerzhul        for gettext no problem, i will see if binary works without irrlicht, that can make a reduced container size can be nice
22:40 IhrFussel      Who talked about profession? When players on my server tell me about a CRITICAL bug then I react ASAP cause it could potentially harm my entire userbase ... I wish more MT devs would think like that
22:40 sfan5          nerzhul: i meant the -DENABLE_SOUND=0
22:40 nerzhul        oh
22:41 nerzhul        i see :) right
22:41 nerzhul        previous image was 209MB
22:41 nerzhul        i hope it will be greatly reduced without irrlicht (if it's possible)
22:41 IhrFussel      And I even PAY for my server, that is the opposite of getting paid
22:42 nerzhul        IhrFussel i agree, the problem is it seems i'm the only dev you talked about those problems and speedup about this these days :p
22:42 nerzhul        i can take ownership of good community solutions and provide the patches, especially on android, very fast
22:42 VanessaE       nerzhul, well youre the android guy, are you not?
22:43 nerzhul        no sorry i'm just a google play store development user
22:43 VanessaE       ...
22:43 nerzhul        heh
22:43 jordach_       IhrFussel, and most core devs have other real life things to attend to, not literally be on call to put sql fires out
22:43 VanessaE       case in point.
22:43 nerzhul        i have 3 childs < 3 years
22:43 IhrFussel      It seems one "Android guy" is not enough in the core dev team... maybe you should consider adding stu (if he isn't already one)
22:43 nerzhul        tell me which coredev has that ?
22:44 TommyTreasure  VanessaE, for some odd reason, i can't get homedecor installed
22:44 VanessaE       nerzhul *eveyone* is complaining about lsck of time
22:44 nerzhul        but i'm the only to do a reaction on IRC when users complains (paramat does sometimes too)
22:44 jordach_       i'd happily dev MT for mony
22:44 VanessaE       tommy fild a github issue and i'll look when my home internet is back
22:44 nerzhul        give me 50k€ yearly after charges and ok
22:44 tumeninodes    mmmmm monies
22:44 VanessaE       er!
22:45 TommyTreasure  oh darn,  have to revert to old version for now
22:45 VanessaE       tommy fild a gitLAB issue
22:45 IhrFussel      I'm not expecting you to leave your families just to be able to work on a free time project ... but sometimes I wonder how some people can't even have "10 minutes" to do something trivial quick
22:45 tumeninodes    I have 4 monies currently
22:45 nerzhul        (sorry but it should be competitive with my real work)
22:45 nerzhul        IhrFussel do you know compiling android take 20 minutes
22:46 nerzhul        each try can take 10 to 15 minutes to compile
22:46 VanessaE       and you have to babysit it or sth?
22:46 nerzhul        especially when you are on deps
22:46 nerzhul        VanessaE: no :)
22:46 nerzhul        i have my wife but she needs me
22:46 jordach_       even on my strong hardware, android takes an age to compile
22:46 jordach_       even making a coffee makes it even longer
22:46 tumeninodes    sitting on babies should be banned
22:46 IhrFussel      It could run in the backhround while you do something else... of course that does not apply right now when you want to sleep, but during the day I wouldn't believe that excuse
22:46 nerzhul        sfan5: good news it runs without irrlicht lib, ty
22:46 nerzhul        158MB image
22:47 VanessaE       who cares if it takes 5 mins or 2 hours to build thrn
22:47 sfan5          yeah, irrlicht is not even linked
22:47 sfan5          only the headers are needed during a build
22:47 Calinou        are you working on a Docker image for the Minetest server or just for development?
22:47 nerzhul        sfan5: yep
22:47 nerzhul        Calinou don't care about devel, but minetest server distribution instead
22:48 nerzhul        we don't need docker for dev, whereas it can make some contributors life easier on some systems to embed the build system in docker instead of their machine
22:48 Calinou        nice
22:48 nerzhul        it's a side effect of the need i get (provide commit based minetest servers)
22:48 tumeninodes    I think tenplus1 will like that
22:49 nerzhul        sfan5 all points are fixed, waiting for your time to finish :)
22:49 VanessaE       nerzhul my problem is that in the time you spent espousing your oack of time, you could have .... oh forget it, youre not gonna listen anyways
22:49 nerzhul        if we can provide that on gitlab asap it can be nice
22:49 nerzhul        VanessaE i listen to you
22:50 nerzhul        but i already knows than packaging mt server in docker is less tiring than android devel whereas i'm very tired this evening
22:50 VanessaE       ...
22:50 nerzhul        my last baby cries for 3 hours, it's... hard
22:51 tumeninodes    program babies to do dev and you will be all set :D
22:51 nerzhul        promise i take time on this issue this week (winter is coming & christmas too and i need to buy gifts too...)
22:52 nerzhul        tumeinodes waiting for you to have one and do the review :D
22:52 VanessaE       tommy btw i dont mean to blow you off... i'm stuck with only my phone for internet for 2 days now, no tethering, so basically i cant do any real work
22:52 tumeninodes    already has 2 but grown now, and still cry 3 hrs
22:53 nerzhul        :)
22:53 tumeninodes    I feel your pain
22:53 Calinou        I should learn Dockerizing stuff and hosting it on servers
22:54 tumeninodes    dockerizing is actually a word now?
22:54 nerzhul        for those who don't understand , it's like being near a jack hammer
22:54 tumeninodes    yah it is
22:55 tumeninodes    or under one
22:55 nerzhul        docker itself in a real infrasutrcture is useless you need k8s, but for mt it should be sufficient
22:55 nerzhul        but having k8s namespace with a pg and mt server , 1 couple in each namespace which scale on server owners demand can be cool :D
22:55 Calinou        eh, k8s is known to be overkill at a small scale
22:56 Calinou        not everyone is Amazon or Facebook, and I wish more developers understood that :P
22:56 nerzhul        if you have 2 containers yes, > 10 it starts to be interesting
22:56 * Calinou      looks at open source projects from GAFAM
22:56 nerzhul        the k8s control plane has a ocost
22:56 nerzhul        no need to be aws or gcp
22:56 nerzhul        just have 10 various binaries + test environments vs prod environments is sufficient for a small need
22:57 Calinou        consider I'm running everything the old-fashioned way on my VPS right now
22:57 Calinou        it works pretty well still
22:57 nerzhul        at least if we provide mt server in docker you can selfhost on gcp container or aws eks lol
22:57 nerzhul        for self hosting the best thing is to understand
22:57 nerzhul        my self hosted infrastructure is a k8s with 30 pods and 3 namespaces
22:58 nerzhul        10 scaleway vc1s nodes + 1 pine64 at home
22:58 nerzhul        (full arm64)
22:59 jordach_       nerzhul, ayy scaleway
22:59 jordach_       i have one of those beefy x86'ers
22:59 IhrFussel      Bad news... first stu did still reply even though it's midnight now and 2nd -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7963#issuecomment-446393663
23:00 * VanessaE     sighs
23:01 tumeninodes    well... now there's lots of kids crying
23:02 jordach_       android 4 is a mess API wise
23:02 tumeninodes    those kids parents need to give their kids real equipment rather than their old stuff while buying themselves the new shit
23:02 IhrFussel      If you really drop support for Android <6 then say goodbye to "users will migrate to our app"
23:02 VanessaE       yep
23:03 VanessaE       to them, MT will be dead.
23:03 IhrFussel      And most of the hard work you did JUST to make the Android shitshow app more user friendly, will be wasted
23:03 tumeninodes    it's their parents faults not MT dev
23:04 nerzhul        VanessaE: they just won't have new updates
23:04 VanessaE       tumeni, its the economy.  one high end mobile is expensive enough as it is
23:04 IhrFussel      That was the original reason for the Android overhaul don't forget that ... "so that people don't have to choose multicraft or other ad-infested apps over ours anymore"
23:05 VanessaE       nerzhul wrong
23:05 tumeninodes    yes and selfish parents get that one for themselves and throw their old unit to the dogs (I mean the kids)
23:05 nerzhul        i have one other app on the play store and older devices are stuck with old version when i upgraded the minimum version
23:05 VanessaE       nerzhul, no updates = dead app eventually.
23:05 IhrFussel      You forget that 5.0.0 is NOT compatible with 0.4.X
23:06 IhrFussel      So you essentially say goodbye then to all Android 4/5 users
23:06 nerzhul        we don't know their usecase
23:06 nerzhul        solo ? multi ?
23:07 IhrFussel      paramat will not accept this idea of dropping 35% of Android users...I'm sure of that
23:07 tumeninodes    eventually, that is going to happen anyway. Or... could just put a halt to all dev altogether and just keep MT at 0.4.17.1 forever
23:07 VanessaE       no one plays singleplayer for very long, let alone on a mobile
23:07 nerzhul        IhrFussel they are not dropped if we go to 5.0.0 i don't see the point there
23:08 nerzhul        ndk ensure the compat and the packaging
23:09 IhrFussel      What? 5.0.0 cannot support Android 4 or 5 if you don't fix this issue until release ... so that means they are stuck on 0.4.X and you will make it even MORE controversial for server owners to upgrade
23:09 IhrFussel      You SPLIT a large chunk of the userbase with no return unless they buy new devices
23:09 jordach_       >controversial
23:09 jordach_       >gets left behind by all mod makers on PCs
23:09 tumeninodes    put the word out, holidays are coming soon kids... throw a tantrum to get your folks to buy you a new Android device... then go buy some stock in Android
23:09 nerzhul        which issue ? thecrash issue ? i don't say it's not solveable
23:10 jordach_       s/Android/Alphabet/g
23:11 IhrFussel      nerzhul, stu says that Android 4 and 5 cannot be supported it seems unless we change back to gcc
23:11 VanessaE       nerzhul, 20 mins to compile, was it?  3 hours later.....
23:12 VanessaE       ihr, he might jusg have missed something on that.
23:12 VanessaE       just*
23:18 sofar          #define stderr
23:19 IhrFussel      jordach_, you have no MT server right? Then you likely also don't understand how 1. difficult is to even reach players cause there are wayyy too many servers for wayyy too few players and 2. how close you get to some of them ... I wouldn't want to lose >= 35% of my playerbase just because the devs cannot find a way to support older Android versions
23:19 sofar          not having a server doesn't mean your voice should go unheard
23:20 rubenwardy     I don't think Stu's conclusion is correct
23:20 jordach_       >doesn't realise i've had servers prior to 0.4.15
23:20 sofar          that bug thread is ... complex
23:20 IhrFussel      No, but "playerbase doesn't matter more than new mods" is not what most server owners think
23:20 jordach_       except mods are the content
23:21 IhrFussel      I'm sure most serious and established server owners would rather keep their playerbase and leave newer mods behind
23:21 sofar          please speak for yourself
23:21 sofar          "I think..."
23:21 sofar          unless you have some data that includes other server owners' opinions
23:21 IhrFussel      Cause a server is NOTHING without playerbase
23:22 IhrFussel      It's a dead service
23:22 IhrFussel      You want to offer a dead service that you pay for monthly? GOOD
23:22 sofar          not my point
23:22 sofar          you keep saying "server owners" and "we" but you mean "I"
23:23 sofar          I'm not saying your voice should be unheard
23:23 sofar          I'm saying, please let other server owners speak and don't speak for them, please
23:24 jordach_       back in 0.4-20120112 days i held the biggest MT server around for like 6 months before moving onto redcrab, like everyone else :^)
23:24 IhrFussel      I say established server owners will likely rather keep their players cause those are much more valuable than mods/features ... I want to know which serious, established server owner would choose content over playerbase
23:24 IhrFussel      That would make little sense
23:24 sofar          you're making assumptions about other server owners
23:24 sofar          again
23:24 jordach_       i'm currently balls deep into the set_sky PR i've been working on at the minute
23:24 VanessaE       he's right, sofar.
23:25 sofar          yes but he keeps making statements that ass u and me when it comes to other server owners
23:25 IhrFussel      It may be different for NEW servers ... cause don't have a real playerbase yet... but after 2 or 3 years you don't want to LOSE your active players
23:25 VanessaE       fair enough.
23:25 sofar          it's literally all he does from what I can see
23:25 sofar          and it's been going on for months
23:26 sofar          just say " I have a problem with it, because on my server xxxxx"
23:26 sofar          or "this may deter players on my  server ..."
23:26 jordach_       reeeeeeeee bow to my demands of 5 super active players
23:26 IhrFussel      I said I want to read here that a server owners is happy to lose lots of active players
23:26 sofar          heck almost everyone talking in here has a server
23:27 sofar          or has, for a significant amount of time, ran one/several/many
23:27 rubenwardy     I'll probably be running 3 servers when 5.0.0 releases
23:28 rubenwardy     CTF for 5, CTF for 0.4, and Capitalism game
23:28 IhrFussel      It just goes against logic...if you are happy to lose good players then why do you even have a server? What is the point if your players don't matter
23:28 rubenwardy     I'll be disabling features on the old server, such as the score board
23:28 rubenwardy     And the new server will get cool features like slippery nodes
23:28 sofar          IhrFussel: feel free to make a forum poll and take the thread there
23:29 VanessaE       ruben, maybe you can offer stu a correction? (since you said he's probably wrong)
23:29 rubenwardy     It depends how much you value random users or loyal users
23:29 rubenwardy     If you have a tight knit set of loyal users, then they'll follow you
23:30 VanessaE       people are fickle, though..
23:30 sofar          MT4->5 conversion of ITB will be interesting
23:30 rubenwardy     But if you have a large number of less knit users, like most servers, they probably won't
23:31 sofar          I doubt it'll be complicated, though
23:31 rubenwardy     sofar: you could do the same as me
23:31 rubenwardy     Host 2 versions, disable score board on one
23:31 rubenwardy     Also disable box creation on ine
23:31 VanessaE       some of my best, most loyal players are long gone, through no fault of mine or MT devs
23:31 jordach_       VanessaE, sadpepe.png
23:32 VanessaE       :P
23:34 jordach_       was quite busy 4-5 years ago
23:34 VanessaE       rubenwardy, maybe you can offer stu a correction? (since you said he's probably wrong, and he now says he's out of ideas)
23:34 rubenwardy     I don't have any ideas anyway
23:34 rubenwardy     *either
23:35 rubenwardy     My point was that I don't think it's impossible to release for Android 4
23:35 VanessaE       oh.
23:36 sofar          rubenwardy: easy enough spinning up a testing ITB deployment, so won't be so hard to do when it's needed
23:39 IhrFussel      The goal for 5.0.0 is to make the new shiny version as attractive as possible for server owners so that they feel the urge to quickly upgrade... but in case Android 4/5 are dropped, you will probably reach the opposite
23:41 IhrFussel      And you will still not be able to migrate all those multicraft players cause they will stay there (I expect the Multicraft and other devs to find a way to support old Android because each user is money for them)
23:45 IhrFussel      Well...I'm off to bed now ... goodnight
23:56 tumeninodes    yeh, and too bad those pay to play devs won't port anything back upstream..., they make their $ off others work