Time  Nick        Message
00:01 Grandolf    what are the legalities of builds in a world? am i allowed to run someone elses server if im given the files? and is it legal for the files to be transferred?
00:03 Grandolf    also is it legal for me to capture someones builds in a server?
00:06 sfan5       I don't think there's any lawyer here than can answer these questions
00:06 Shara       Grandolf: Will anyone take you to court over copying builds? I doubt it., but also not a lawyer. However some people to set a license or terms of use on schematics they make available, and some players will certainly be very upset if you go and copy their work without their agreement.
00:07 Shara       do set*
00:08 T4im        abstractly speaking any work that passes a threshold of originality could potentially be copyright protected; whether that is expressed on paper or a minetest server ought to make no difference
00:09 T4im        but i wonder if in the minecraft world that actually has ever been taken to court :x if not, then i highly doubt it's gonna happen here :P
00:10 Shara       I do have something in my server rules saying original builds should be considered copyright of whoever made them and you should ask before reusing them for something outside my servers. But some things are about decency rather than whether they can be enforced or not.
00:11 T4im        indeed
00:11 T4im        i mean, asking for permission is bothe decent and removes any legal doubts one might have
00:11 T4im        :D
00:16 Grandolf    its difficult to ask every memeber who ever built in a world if its ok to host an old server again
00:17 Grandolf    especially when that server has had alot of people in it who dont play minetest anymore
00:18 T4im        if you have the permission of the previous hoster, it's usually ok; as long as you don't create a copy of the world parallel to the original one; which hasn't worked out well in the past
00:19 Grandolf    if someone hosted the server, and someone else did all the modding and admin-ing, whos is the server?
00:19 Grandolf    who owns it?
00:21 T4im        that seems irrelevant; if your goal is to keep the world alive, you ideally want the permission of anyone involved in hosting/administration to agree you taking over
00:21 T4im        so that noone in the previous team gets the idea to do the same themselves, and you end up with two versions of the world online at the same time
00:21 T4im        because that really messes things up
00:24 T4im        this is much more about being pragmatic than legal questions in my opinion :D
00:24 Grandolf    would you belive me if i saw this exact situation DX
00:25 Grandolf    except one group wants to run it and the other wants it to stay down
00:27 T4im        well, that doesn't sound good
00:29 Grandolf    they use to be good friends too :P
00:29 Grandolf    highlight the word use
00:30 BillyS      Japanese message don't show in chat due to their wierd characters
00:30 BillyS      Is this easily fixed?
00:31 BillyS      I would assume not ... it would probably require all the clients to use a different font
00:44 Shara       Grandolf: Sometimes when you have a dispute like that, it's better not to get involved at all.
09:12 VanessaE    sofar: please close https://github.com/minetest-mods/biome_lib/issues/4
09:13 VanessaE    (invalid issue, no replies for over a year, video link is dead)
10:20 VanessaE    (not to mention, it's on the wrong fork)
11:35 Krock       hi tenplus1 who isn't here again
11:35 T4im        hi krock
11:35 T4im        :)
11:35 Krock       hi T4im :D
11:39 xerox123_   !seen tenplus1
11:39 MinetestBot xerox123_: tenplus1 was last seen at 2018-11-24 15:38:18 UTC on #minetest-hub
15:00 IhrFussel   If you release 0.4.17.2 or 0.4.18 then PLEASE fix the map stalling
15:01 rubenwardy  when did the problem start?
15:01 IhrFussel   Someething in the MT code allows certain clients (AFAIK only mobile clients with random app names) to make the map STOP loading for everyone, but mods still function as expected
15:03 IhrFussel   Pretty sure it was a few months ago... it's either a rather popular badly programmed app or some kind of bots... but whenever a certain user with a name like "[A-Z][a-z]{1,}[0-9]{3,4}" disconnects everything goes back to normal ... there must be some security hole in the map sending code that allows such a blocking
15:04 IhrFussel   Inventories are affected too then it seems...so map + meta maybe
15:05 Krock       something like slow loris attack?
15:07 VanessaE    you know, I had that problem for a while, too
15:07 VanessaE    eventually it just stopped happening though
15:07 VanessaE    no idea (at the time) why it happened, or what made it stop.
15:08 IhrFussel   VanessaE, it's only some clients that cause it and it only happens on very popular servers mostly... maybe it even takes multiple of these "badly programmed clients" until the stalling occurs... first it slows down map loading and later it stops completely
15:08 rubenwardy  map sometimes stops responding on CTF
15:09 rubenwardy  I wonder if it's something to do with reliable sending or using too much resources on one client?
15:09 IhrFussel   I saw it happening there too...maybe some with that bad app firgured out how to write their own names and connected to it...not sure
15:10 VanessaE    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6009
15:10 IhrFussel   AFAIK these apps (that give a random name) let you type your own but 99% of the users don't know or don't bother to change it
15:11 IhrFussel   I can see if I still have the videos I made for proof
15:12 Shara       I've been having issues with map loading recently as well since activity stepped up a bit on RC... and I've noticed it seems to conincide with certain players joining and leaving as well.
15:12 Shara       I've done checks while it's happening to make sure it's not likely to be people exploring or heavy mesecons use.
15:13 T4im        hm, might be a bug in their forks that causes this; on BuckarooBanzai's server a lot of those mobile users just kept running into the same damn direction every time; jumping of a platform, pretty much all landing in similar areas far off
15:14 T4im        was way too precise to not be a client bug there :p
15:15 * T4im      makes the connection between erranous movement and the slowdown due to mapblock sending requests
15:15 Shara       Random hunch based on the player that I think caused it being able to see my name tag even when I hid it - possibly an app using a pretty old version.
15:16 rubenwardy  nice pixels there
15:16 Krock       that would be 0.4.11 or earlier
15:16 ANAND       That's possible on 0.4.13 too
15:16 Shara       Krock: No, 4.13 I think
15:16 Shara       Grr, ANAND is quick :)
15:16 Krock       quick and correct for the 0. prefix
15:16 ANAND       :P
15:23 IhrFussel   Is it possible to "cut" the sending of mapblocks if it takes too long for the client to respond?
15:27 T4im        well, you could start by checking whether those lags are mapgen caused
15:28 T4im        as in, the clients causing mapgen
15:30 Krock       hm.. there's only one send thread?
15:31 rubenwardy  #7895
15:31 ShadowBot   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7895 -- [WIP] Add luacheck to check builtin by rubenwardy
15:34 T4im        why exclude the mainmenu though? :p i know it's exploding with warnings; but since this isn't in travis, it'd give people the opportunity to fix those :D
15:34 T4im        without failing builds
15:34 T4im        i bet, if you exclude it, it'll never be fixed :x
15:34 rubenwardy  I'm planning on adding it to travis in that PR
15:34 rubenwardy  heh
15:34 rubenwardy  maybe
15:35 rubenwardy  the worst in c55's code is       local i      for i=1, #thing do
15:35 T4im        :D
15:35 rubenwardy  sapier's code, ie: mainmenu, is like 100s of warnings
15:36 rubenwardy  tbh, most of them are non issues really
15:36 T4im        lemme guess, the profiler, besides its defined top-level global has none? :x
15:36 rubenwardy  there was a single line being too long
15:36 T4im        :o
15:37 rubenwardy  but apart from that, no issues
15:39 rubenwardy  already halved the number of mainmenu issues just be saving some files to remove whitespace, and adding table things to config
15:43 T4im        hmm you might want to consider do-end blocks instead of reassigning variables for clearer scoping
15:43 T4im        the setname/setvalue thing
15:44 T4im        won't make a big difference here though, except for communicating intent
15:47 * T4im      didn't do that when adding linting to mtg :/
15:51 rubenwardy  setting non-standard global variable _
15:51 rubenwardy  u wot
15:53 T4im        in item.lua it seems
15:53 T4im        you removed the local _ in front of the for loop
15:55 rubenwardy  this is somewhere else
15:56 IhrFussel   T4im, it#s not mapgen, all of the above posted videos were recorded in an already generated and well-known area
15:57 T4im        IhrFussel: you were in that already generated area; but were the guests?
16:02 IhrFussel   But it's map sending then not generating...clients don't generate map, they only receive it
16:02 T4im        but they can trigger it
16:02 IhrFussel   But if one client generated it in the past then there is nothing to generate anymore
16:03 T4im        theres always someone new to generate
16:03 IhrFussel   Mapgen only triggers once per map lifetime unless you delete mapblocks from the DB
16:03 T4im        something*
16:03 IhrFussel   per mapblock*
16:03 T4im        per chunk i believe, but yes
16:04 T4im        (i.e. 5x5x5 mapblocks iirc)
16:04 IhrFussel   And these areas are 2 years old so not new ... the problem is clients receiving the map...and somehow managing to make map loading stop for everyone
16:04 T4im        the idea here is, that if someone had the clever idea to spawn mobile users into random places in the world, they'd essentially DoS your server
16:05 T4im        or if somehow their movement code is broken and the player teleports into random places, that could happen, too
16:05 IhrFussel   Then NoCheat should kick in AFAIK...let me check
16:08 T4im        no idea what work has been done there in the last years, but as long as the client is in charge of physics, i'd keep worrying about it
16:08 IhrFussel   There are lots of "moved too fast; resetting position" lines but not sure if it's related...it also happens with slow connections
16:08 T4im        does it mention the positions?
16:09 IhrFussel   Nope but it can happen quite a few times per second
16:14 IhrFussel   ~ 80,000 lines of that since nov 16
16:14 T4im        well; certainly enough to check if mapgen starts up the next time you have that issue
16:14 T4im        because mapgen *does* have that effect
16:15 T4im        so at the very least excluding the possibility would be worth it
16:17 IhrFussel   I guess I can add a register_on_mapgen() log entry
16:17 T4im        :)
16:23 IhrFussel   Does MT really allow mapgen to take place at any position even if the player shouldn't be there yet?
16:23 rubenwardy  no
16:24 Krock       kinda, since it generates a defined radius around the player
16:25 IhrFussel   Yes but MT should check if the player could've been at that position first
16:25 Krock       yes, that's what anticheat does
16:25 IhrFussel   And it should abort mapgen if it#s false
16:27 IhrFussel   So I guess the last part isn't implemented
16:27 Krock       hi tenplus1
16:27 tenplus1    hi folks, and Krock
16:27 Krock       HAH
16:27 tenplus1    snap!
16:27 T4im        hi :)
16:27 tenplus1    ehehe, hi T4im
16:27 Krock       this time. this single time I did it
16:27 tenplus1    :P
16:29 T4im        the question might very well be if mapgen would be started before or after such a correction; could be an unintented effect
16:29 tenplus1    ?
16:29 T4im        to the conversation before you joined :x
16:30 T4im        abut mobile users bringing mapsending to a halt
16:30 tenplus1    ahh, it does lag more with mobile users, yeah
16:30 IhrFussel   WAIT
16:30 tenplus1    hi fussel
16:30 IhrFussel   But mapgen halts mod code correct? AFAIK it lags the whole server
16:31 rubenwardy  no
16:31 rubenwardy  mapgen is on a separate thread
16:31 rubenwardy  it halts mod code when register_on_** is called
16:31 tenplus1    hi ruben...  register_on is used in quite a few mods tho
16:31 T4im        on_mapgen
16:31 rubenwardy  it's only as slow as the code inside the mapgen callback
16:32 IhrFussel   But on my old server machine (Opteron) I had a 1-2 sec lag whenever I generated new map parts... not sure if that could've been caused by a mod
16:33 IhrFussel   And when mapgen runs mapsend cannot run??
16:34 IhrFussel   The problem is clearly map sending... so it only makes sense if mapgen really blocks any sending of map
16:34 IhrFussel   Hi tenplus1
16:34 tenplus1    o/
16:35 T4im        from my experience it does
16:36 IhrFussel   So it mainly only happens with appname-users, it only happens when many are online and it happens in "steps" (first map gets slower and slower until it halts) ... sounds like some sort of looping to me at least
16:36 T4im        whenever someone is exploring you may end up running against CONTENT_IGNORE nodes
16:36 T4im        or whatever the client is using in that place
16:37 T4im        well; the mapgen idea is just one thing to rule out; could just as well be, that the anticheat itself is the cause
16:37 tenplus1    I disable anticheat on server
16:37 IhrFussel   AntiCheat happens in the thread where mod code is run no? But mod code runs perfectly fine
16:37 T4im        maybe the client teleports, anticheat teleports back; client teleports again, and again, and again :p
16:37 tenplus1    and rollback
16:39 IhrFussel   The chat, entities, ingame time/events...they all work and max_lag also doesn't increase
18:06 tenplus1    laters folks
19:36 IhrFussel   Happened again...so yeah it's definitely ONE specific player who stalls the map... and it doesn't matter if other join or leave only when THAT one user leaves the game loads the map again
19:37 IhrFussel   I couldn't restart yet, but will do so a bit later...then I'll see if the stalling occurs during lots of register_on_generated() callbacks
22:02 IhrFussel   Is player speed calculated server side? Like pos1 -> pos2 = movement speed?
22:02 IhrFussel   I hope MT doesn't trust the client there
23:01 GreenDimond I have a registered test LBM and it is doing nothing
23:02 GreenDimond Wait
23:02 GreenDimond im dumb