Time  Nick           Message
01:25 luk3yx         Hi GreenDimond.
01:27 * VanessaE     waits to see if GreenDimond gets another asskicking from Skyblock, or he reverse :)
01:28 VanessaE       the*
01:31 GreenDimond    Er
01:31 GreenDimond    I'll uh, get on soonish.
01:32 VanessaE       heh
09:03 tenplus1       hi folks
09:34 ChimneySwift   aloha
09:34 tenplus1       hi chim chiminy
09:37 ChimneySwift   XD hey how's it going
09:37 tenplus1       heh, not bad, you ?
09:37 tenplus1       about to watch Castlevania season 2 anime :D
09:39 ChimneySwift   good :D I added some more stuff to my Didcord/IRC bot, it's slightly broken though lol.
09:39 ChimneySwift   nice!
09:39 tenplus1       hi benrob
09:40 benrob0329     Hi tenplus1
09:40 ChimneySwift   o/
09:40 benrob0329     Hello ChimneySwift
09:48 tenplus1       hi fussel
09:50 IhrFussel      Hello there tenplus1 and the others
10:16 tenplus1       o/ T4im
10:16 T4im           hi :D
10:33 tenplus1       hi tommy
10:36 longerstaff13  o/
10:36 longerstaff13  *peers out of the atic, then falls out of the attic* ow
10:37 tenplus1       hi longer :P
10:45 tenplus1       hi calcul0n
10:46 calcul0n       hello
10:57 tenplus1       how did that happen ?
10:57 tenplus1       you think they did it for attention ?
10:58 tenplus1       we've had thefts on server but protected chest could only be opened by names on list, was a friend that was added who took items and denied all knowledge
10:58 tenplus1       gotta love logs
11:00 tenplus1       Iremember building an amazing castle and one wrong move with worldedit wiped half of it out :) so made it a ruin instead...eheheh
11:01 tenplus1       so weird...
11:02 tenplus1       this is on-topic btw, minetest griefing
11:02 benrob0329     Yeah but I didn't want to clutter up the logs :P
11:02 tenplus1       it's still logged from what I hear
11:03 benrob0329     I have not seen so much damage in such a short amount of time though
11:03 tenplus1       ahh, it doesnt appear on logs now, sweet
11:03 tenplus1       had to check
11:04 tenplus1       I would happily enable lava buckets and fire spreading if I thought players could be trusted with it
11:04 tenplus1       but there's always some who take advantage and spoil it for the rest
11:08 tenplus1       wb fixer
11:09 benrob0329     I think protector blocks are used more for blockspam than anything else
11:09 tenplus1       blockspam ? explain ?
11:09 benrob0329     I see them littering the ground, older builds, etc
11:10 tenplus1       when they get better at building theyy hide them better :P
11:11 benrob0329     No like, builds too old to have protection
11:11 tenplus1       that's why we host wrecking crews on Xanadu, if a player has been banned/limited or hasn't been on server in a looooong time, we remove protection and let the other players take what they like :)
11:12 T4im           the protector mod makes a tradeoff between looks and simplicity there; if you have a more looks oriented server you might consider adding another protection mod.. a lot of servers seem to end up using more than one at the same time after a while to get the best of both worlds
11:13 tenplus1       yeah, I do like areas but too many protected areas slow things down and cause lag
11:13 T4im           of course you gain the draw back of overlap of several prtoection mods not being handled perfectly
11:13 tenplus1       I may find a way to hide the protector nodes or add an invisible one that glows when a player is near
11:13 T4im           are you sure areas slows down that much? isn't it using a special datastructure to avoid that?
11:14 tenplus1       if you protect 1000 areas it loops through the 1000 areas to check if what you punched or dug is within that area
11:14 tenplus1       *within one of hte areas
11:14 tenplus1       do that with every player on server and it gets slow
11:15 T4im           i haven't looked at the implementation, but i doubt they implemented it that naively
11:16 benrob0329     Wouldn't it just see if the area  overlaps with a protected are? Essentially a collision check?
11:16 benrob0329     *area
11:16 T4im           yes
11:16 T4im           that's what i thought as well
11:17 T4im           and those areas could be retrieved through some kind of tree structure
11:17 T4im           no need to loop through tables to test every single one individually
11:17 T4im           but this is all speculation without looking at the code or at least the commit message :p
11:18 tenplus1       am checking code now
11:18 tenplus1       many loops
11:19 tenplus1       https://github.com/ShadowNinja/areas/blob/289d0e623c1d383f26cbc57c94ce9a8a184bf525/api.lua#L71
11:19 tenplus1       which calls this: https://github.com/ShadowNinja/areas/blob/289d0e623c1d383f26cbc57c94ce9a8a184bf525/api.lua#L18
11:19 tenplus1       and unless it's stored in memory already, loops though all areas
11:20 benrob0329     Loops through each area, or each block in an area?
11:20 T4im           that runs once for every area at a postion
11:20 T4im           so in an optimal case exactly once
11:20 T4im           ofc only if areastore is available
11:20 tenplus1       each area checking POS is within
11:21 tenplus1       how big does area store get with every position for each player,
11:21 T4im           that is the fallback
11:21 benrob0329     So, not bad
11:21 T4im           the fallback doesn't run if you have an areastore
11:22 T4im           it only really iterates all areas returned for a position (i.e. when several overlap)
11:22 T4im           which means the actual search is done by the areastore in the engine; that's the code you need to look at
11:23 tenplus1       hrm
11:23 T4im           and provided you compile it with libspatial backend, it seems to be stored in rtrees, which is one option for that kinda thing
11:24 tenplus1       whereas protector redo checks pos with radius to find a protection block, get name and see if your on the list
11:25 tenplus1       very simple
11:25 T4im           it is simple; not necessarily faster :)
11:25 tenplus1       5.0 has find_node_near with middle bool, that will make it faster still
11:26 tenplus1       but I dont have 5.0 dev installed so it'll have to wait until it's implemented in say 0.4.18
11:27 T4im           this kind of spatial indexing and retrieving is optimized to hell and back by all those FPS :p imagine how much collision checks are done in those every second for a all those projectiles flying around, all one huge maps with lots of geometry
11:27 T4im           on*
11:30 T4im           i don't know what performs better; but at least neither should slow down with more protection needed
11:30 benrob0329     Interesting analogy considering Doom is a thing
11:30 tenplus1       the faster I can find and check meta the faster the protection mod works :)
11:30 tenplus1       so always on the lookout for new methods
11:31 tenplus1       and no matter how many protectors are added it's always the same speed for each player
11:31 T4im           which is the most important thing for a protection mod htere
11:31 tenplus1       krocks simple protection works on mapblock, stores the name per block and is easy access so prolly faster than both
11:32 tenplus1       but you have no control over placement, like leaving a 1 block gap for farming so players can gather crops but not break anything around it
11:33 T4im           probably better not to fud areas there tho; as some people might decide to use a protection mod that actually doesn't fit them, only because they thing the other one is a performance liability :p
11:34 T4im           i think the big protection mods all have their niche and complement each other well there
11:34 T4im           think*
11:35 T4im           would be nice if they worked better together :s
11:35 tenplus1       I like how each has it's own way of working, benefits but also drawbacks of use
11:36 T4im           yea
11:36 tenplus1       the is_protected function is overidden by them all though so you dont want it too stressed working together
11:36 T4im           right now you can still protect someone elses area with a different protection mod
11:36 T4im           although i see how that can be hard to implement right
11:37 tenplus1       some servers do areas for huge builds and protectors for little/specific areas
11:37 T4im           yea
11:38 T4im           tony's server has all three big ones, landrush, areas and protector :P
11:38 tenplus1       oof
11:38 T4im           oh wait, actually not sure about areas there hmm but landrush and protector as combination definitely
11:39 tenplus1       I like whenthey use protector.flip , it annoys griefers :D
11:39 T4im           :)
11:48 tenplus1       hi shiva :)
11:51 benrob0329     Its sad to me how much footage it takes to make on of these videos
11:52 benrob0329     I take anywhere from ~ 2-3 1/2 hours of footage and cut it down to just 2-4 minutes
11:53 tenplus1       wow, didnt realise you needed so much
11:54 benrob0329     Itd probably be about a half hour once I pull all the shots out, then those get sorted, placed, and cut
11:56 tenplus1       look forward to seeing final vid :D
11:56 tenplus1       hi DI3HARD139
11:56 DI3HARD139     Hello
11:57 benrob0329     *looks outside* oh hey the sun woke up
11:57 benrob0329     'Bout time
11:57 tenplus1       :P
12:07 shivajiva      Hiya tenplus :)
12:07 tenplus1       o//
12:10 tenplus1       long time no see
12:11 shivajiva      yea, you okay
12:12 tenplus1       same old same old :P what's new with you ?
12:20 tenplus1       hi CWz
12:20 CWz            hello
12:41 IhrFussel      I use areas without libspatial... globalstep() takes max 10ms average is 34 µs
12:42 IhrFussel      I have at least 3,000 protections on my server
12:42 tenplus1       that's a lot dude
12:42 T4im           you'd have to instrument its is_protected there; globalstep isn't used for protection checks
12:43 IhrFussel      globalstep() loops through all areas cause it displays the areas at each player's position
12:43 T4im           a
12:43 T4im           ah
12:43 T4im           fair point
12:44 tenplus1       this is the one thing I'duse csm for (buyt server side loaded only) is for protection display
12:44 IhrFussel      on_protection_violation[1] ........................  |         9 |      1257 |        96
12:44 IhrFussel      min | max | avg
12:44 T4im           kudos for looking at the correct measurements :p
12:45 tenplus1       :P
12:45 T4im           #4343 is replacing the other ones completely, because they are just confusing this way
12:45 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4343 -- Profiler: Better structures, count calls, measure relative usage by t4im
12:47 T4im           but yea, the avg ain't that bad
12:50 IhrFussel      lua is very fast with iterating through tables
12:51 * tenplus1     likes lua, just wish it used more than one cpu at a time though
12:51 T4im           well you are still using the areastore, even without libspatial
12:51 T4im           so the iteration is still done in c++ there i assume
12:52 T4im           just no fancy tree structure for faster collision checks
12:55 tenplus1       hi Gael
12:55 Gael-de-Sailly hi tenplus1 :)
13:01 T4im           the thing some people might not be aware of is that optimized tail calls are even faster than table iterations :P which is likely why is_protected is the way it is instead of being registered into a table
13:02 tenplus1       T4im: explain ? or example ?
13:02 T4im           well, usually function calls add a small overhead; but when they are down as the last statement in a return, they can be optimized away
13:03 T4im           meaning once everything is compiled; rn minetest.is_protected() is one huge function containing the code of all individual is_protected from the mods
13:03 T4im           which is faster than going through a table and calling each chunk individually
13:04 tenplus1       will lookinto that, big speed increase hopefuly
13:04 T4im           it's great when you do recursion stuff
13:05 T4im           specifically tail call recursion can be faster in some cases than loops
13:05 tenplus1       it's something I've never looked into
13:06 T4im           it can sadly make some code harder to read, which is probably why one shouldn't be replacing everything with it :p
13:07 T4im           but it's a good tool to know about
13:08 T4im           it's one reason why the profiler barely adds any overhead
13:13 tenplus1       hi aerozoic
13:13 aerozoic       wazup tenplus1 !
13:14 aerozoic       rainy day today
13:15 tenplus1       sun out here,but cold
13:42 Fixer          2018 @ Still no proper z-sorting in minetest :(
13:46 tenplus1       hoping for miracles here :D
13:57 tenplus1       heh kewl
13:59 benrob0329     tenplus1: not cool
13:59 benrob0329     Damage
13:59 tenplus1       oh is that the griefing ???  thought you were building a factory
14:00 VanessaE       we cleaned it all up though, as best we could anyway
14:00 VanessaE       and the griefer has since been banned.
14:00 VanessaE       also hi.
14:00 tenplus1       hi Vanessa :)
14:00 tenplus1       vines working ok ?
14:01 VanessaE       idk, I haven't seen it in action
14:01 VanessaE       but, no complaints so far
14:01 VanessaE       and no crashes.
14:01 benrob0329     o/ VanessaE
14:02 CWz            there was a new griefer?
14:03 VanessaE       when isn't there?
14:03 tenplus1       lol
14:03 CWz            wonder what creative username it had
14:04 VanessaE       Liam12 or something like that.
14:04 CWz            well that griefer gives Liams bad names
14:05 CWz            the Liam community shall put him in Liam court where he will be tried by jury of his Liam peers
14:05 VanessaE       heh
14:05 tenplus1       lol
14:06 CWz            It a shame that a Liam was behind a such a heinous crime
14:07 CWz            I'd expect something like that from a CJ or a Walter, but a Liam?
14:07 * benrob0329   uploads a video, and makes another one public
14:08 tenplus1       we've had worse griefings than that :D
14:08 CWz            Walters are mad because the origin of the name was just adding l to water
14:09 CWz            tenplus1, and their usenames were?
14:09 tenplus1       cant remember to be fair, was a while ago before xanadu had /limit and border control
14:10 CWz            Border control? an immigration issue?
14:12 CWz            griefing is a result of parents letting computer games babysit their childs
14:12 CWz            or done by players who feel like that lives are out of control
14:12 CWz            so they take control via Cyberspace
14:13 CWz            either that, it an alien plot to take over the world as we know it
14:17 VanessaE       heh
14:17 tenplus1       :P
14:19 benrob0329     Oh VanessaE, there is crap under the road over there
14:20 benrob0329     Not much, but some
14:20 VanessaE       under?  like what?
14:20 benrob0329     The road over there his basically floating
14:20 VanessaE       hm
14:20 benrob0329     There are random blocks 'n such over there, but it could be old building bits
14:21 benrob0329     Didn't look that closely, just noticed it as I filled a missing block
14:22 VanessaE       given the age of that server, "old building bits" is quite likely.
14:23 benrob0329     I feel like a project should be started to clean up some of the mess on VE-C
14:23 tenplus1       have a wrecking crew... take a group of players and remove any protection for players over a year old (or banned) and let them keep what they take :
14:23 tenplus1       it's fun
14:23 VanessaE       send them to my server :)
14:24 tenplus1       lol
14:24 benrob0329     There is just unfinished/broken down builds, unknown nodes, etc
14:24 VanessaE       well I guess every server needs its ghettos
14:25 tenplus1       exactly...
14:25 VanessaE       :P
14:43 tenplus1       :P
14:49 CWz            Bananaland if full of Gettos but not the bad type
14:49 CWz            I think slums is the best way to describe them though
14:52 CWz            tenplus1, xanadu is spawn still a cubical made out of loony padded walls?
14:53 tenplus1       lolol, that was the old xanadu mk2... weve been on mk3 for a while now, spawn is a huge build like a castle courtyard :) it's really nice... sign in and check it out
14:56 tenplus1       just finished a Ziggurate if anyone wants to see also
15:17 tenplus1       wb
15:18 benrob0329     ty
15:19 tenplus1       laters all :P
17:25 IhrFussel      "my MT server already has lots of features, not sure if more are really needed" "what is mt?" "Minetest the name of this game" "i dont play minetest" "i use apple"
17:26 Krock          and i uses potato pc
17:26 IhrFussel      The 3rd-party apps are washing their brains
17:26 Krock          and i washing my laptop with soap btw
17:28 IhrFussel      MT should've used a license that requires any fork to mention that the engine is powere by "Minetest" ... I don't think LGPLv2.1 does that
17:28 Krock          well, I doubt they changed the ASCII art
17:29 Krock          and that's still printed to the debug.txt file in 0.4.x AFAIK
17:29 rubenwardy     the LGPL does require that if they have apps
17:29 rubenwardy     *adds
17:29 rubenwardy     -d
17:29 rubenwardy     if you use the thing with proprietary code then you need to plainly and obviously attribute Minetest
17:29 rubenwardy     ad code is proprietary
17:32 IhrFussel      Pretty much every fork on Google Play Store / iTunes implements ads
17:32 IhrFussel      The attribution is not required on the title screen though right? They can just hide it in some extra menu
17:33 T4im           or even in a textfile/helpfile section distributed with it :p
17:34 rubenwardy     I think it needs to be on the download page, ie: play store
17:34 rubenwardy     at least that's what I thought when I looked at this
17:34 rubenwardy     the real issue though is that inforcement is painful
17:34 rubenwardy     *enforcement
17:35 rubenwardy     collecting the evidence and dealing with google
17:36 T4im           maybe they are quicker if you point out that it's not their ads included
17:36 T4im           :x
17:56 IhrFussel      bgcolor[] question: FF at the end means 0% transparent... so EE should mean ~ 16% transparent correct?
18:04 IhrFussel      No wait... it's FF, EE, DD, CC , BB, AA, then... 09, 08 etc?
18:04 Krock          !c (1 - (0xEE / 0xFF)) * 100
18:04 MinetestBot     6.666666666666665
18:05 Krock          6% transparent
18:06 IhrFussel      So EE should be 18%
18:06 IhrFussel      CC*
18:07 Krock          !c (1 - (0xCC / 0xFF)) * 100
18:07 MinetestBot    19.999999999999996
18:10 IhrFussel      20... will have to check if that's enough...cause I want my formspec to be just as transparent enough to see kinda what's happening in the background but not enough to max the chat text with my formspec text
18:10 IhrFussel      to mix*
18:11 IhrFussel      What's the default for bgcolor[]? Anyone knows?
18:11 rubenwardy     No, it's:   FF FE FD FC FB FA F9 F8 F7 F6...
18:14 IhrFussel      rubenwardy, I know I didn't want to list every single hex value so I turned it into "chunks"
18:15 rubenwardy     That makes no sense
18:15 rubenwardy     The numbers you gave were inconsistently spaces
18:15 Krock          reverse-calculate it if you want a certain percentage value
18:15 rubenwardy     Which is why you were getting wrong percentages
18:15 T4im           in that case, after A0 would come 9F not 09
18:16 Krock          just like decimal system, but with letters too
18:16 T4im           your typical 0-F range
18:18 IhrFussel      At first I thought the values just got from AA - FF so every "chunk" (AA-BB for example) would have been ~ 16% but then I realized it's 00 - FF so a chunk is ~ 6%
18:18 IhrFussel      I have no better word than "chunk"
18:20 IhrFussel      But wait that is false too...kinda? That means 00-AA is just 1 chunk
18:21 IhrFussel      I'm confused and really bad at math...I'll just try CC for now and see if it looks good
18:23 rubenwardy     Every first digit is 16 of the second digit
18:24 rubenwardy     So  CC=C*16+C=12*16+12
18:26 rubenwardy     Actually, there's always 17 between each double digit
18:26 rubenwardy     So yeah, 6.66%
18:32 IhrFussel      Okay so the "chunks" are 00,11,22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,AA,BB,CC,DD,EE,FF ... then CC should mean 20% and it's solved
19:36 Krock          o/ Calinou
20:33 Fixer          do our textures suck?
20:35 Krock          Fixer: many opinions. Glass looks way too blue IMO
20:36 Shara          MTG glass always looked ikky to me
20:36 Shara          Krock should now fix it :)
20:36 Krock          whereas "now" = tomorrow  _._
20:36 Krock          good suggestions, will adapt.
20:36 Shara          Tomorrow works :)
20:37 Shara          But yea, it'll have my support then. And I'll probably even do a dance or something, because it will be one less terrible texture.
20:38 Shara          I also think snow and gravel textures are pretty bad, and I know others have hated on those as well.
20:38 Shara          Though I think snow was improved at some point
20:38 Shara          Not staring at current dev right now so not sure
20:39 Krock          old brown gravel is a long-time content of my texture pack.. maybe I'm not the only one who's doing that? .D
20:39 Shara          The gravel was much nicer
20:39 Shara          I regret not switching back to it on my server
20:39 Shara          I think I still have old snow at least
20:40 Fixer          does terrain look dull, muted?
20:40 benrob0329     Crazy idea: you can't transport water source blocks
20:40 Shara          Fixer: Don't know really. I just find MTG textures a bit whatever
20:40 benrob0329     Pipeworks' pumps are actually useful as a result
20:41 Krock          you can transport filled buckets
20:42 benrob0329     What if buckets only pour flowing water?
20:42 Fixer          do textures need a bit more saturation?
20:43 Shara          I did a side by side comparison of MTG and HW (game I'm working on) textures textures the other day. MTG colours seemed like those you'd find in some toy building set... not quite real colours of anything. They felt fake.
20:43 Shara          -textures*
20:44 Shara          But of course the textures in my game are going to look better to me, because I've made sure they are what I like, even when I'm not the one making them