Time  Nick         Message
00:10 Sokomine     aerozoic: afaik krock ran his server for quite some time on an old laptop. it worked fine. a pi might be sufficient for a creative server with not too many complex mods
00:20 aerozoic     Watching with the top command, my server is bouncing between 5 and 30% with an i7 4.0ghz cpu.
01:17 rubenwardy   https://i.redd.it/j29xd9yo0tb11.jpg
08:32 tenplus1     hi folks
08:32 tenplus1     hi diamond :P
08:33 tenplus1     PigIron updated to 0.4: Bronze and Steel tool_capabilities switched since steel is much stronger irl
08:33 IcyDiamond   hey tenplus1
08:33 IcyDiamond   my server had decided it wants to reboot overnight
08:33 IcyDiamond   xD
08:33 tenplus1     ouch, did your server have an autostart script ?
08:33 IcyDiamond   no
08:34 tenplus1     double ouch
08:34 IcyDiamond   fsr my services didn't start
08:34 IcyDiamond   so i couldn't even access my server
08:34 IcyDiamond   cuz i run the dns on it
08:34 IcyDiamond   had to look up the ip
08:34 IcyDiamond   XD
08:37 tenplus1     in need of a little fiddling for services to startup next time :PP
10:31 tenplus1     hi raven
10:37 Raven262     Hi ten
10:37 tenplus1     hi CWz
10:37 tenplus1     o/
10:38 entuland     o/
10:38 CWz          Ello
10:38 tenplus1     updated PigIron mod, bronze and steel tools have switched strengths since steel is much stronger irl :P
10:52 tenplus1     hi twoelk
10:52 twoelk       o/
10:53 tenplus1     o/===   <-- holding pizza box
10:54 twoelk       am just trying to figure out a batch to reset the source origin of folders full of github clones that have since fled github  :-P
10:55 tenplus1     ahh
10:56 tenplus1     a task in itself
10:56 twoelk       for mod collections now on different git services this is not much fun
10:56 tenplus1     all of mine are on notabug.org, so you would only have to replace github.com to notabug.org in the git clone section
11:00 twoelk       yeah, luckily I indeeed do have a tenplus1 folder from which I will then copy individuall mods to other locations
11:02 twoelk       I guess for individuall mod collections I'll just have to invest more time - the time you spend do keep kids/players happy
11:02 tenplus1     still think it'd be handy for all git sites to be able to fork/link to one another
11:03 twoelk       don't know how that would work though, might need a central name/nick database to avoid duplicates
11:04 tenplus1     true
11:05 tenplus1     coffee time :P
11:08 * twoelk     tries to drink more water than coffee on hot days
11:08 tenplus1     drinking a warm.hot drink cools you down more ;D
11:16 twoelk       except the amount one drinks on hot days might be a tad too much coffein :-D
11:17 twoelk       I guess I do drink too much coffee in relation to any other liquid anyways
11:17 tenplus1     cause coffee rocks :DD
11:18 twoelk       hmm, chewing roasted coffee beans - I love to do that
11:18 tenplus1     ooh, choccy covered coffee beans are nice
11:22 tenplus1     hrm, might add those to farming redo actually :D
11:27 entuland     ===   ===
11:27 entuland     \o/
11:27 entuland     two pizzas
11:27 tenplus1     hi entuland
11:27 tenplus1     ooh, expert level :D
11:27 entuland     :)
11:29 twoelk       what effect would choco coffee beans have? bouncing around instead of walking?
11:29 tenplus1     lol, slight speed boost and lower fov due to concentration on the spot
11:33 tenplus1     could add pova support and add .01 speed for a minute :D
11:37 tenplus1     hi Krock
11:37 Krock        hi tenplus1
11:37 tenplus1     o/
11:37 tenplus1     got the bronze <-> steel tools to switch capabilities ok :P
11:38 Krock        already seen the forum post
11:38 tenplus1     ehehe
11:39 tenplus1     good to know almost anything can be overriden on startup
11:40 tenplus1     hi aerozoic
11:42 tenplus1     what sorta things will be backported from 0.5 to 0.4.16-3 ?
11:42 aerozoic     hi tenplus1
11:58 Krock        huh? this seems incorrect https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=326743#p326743
11:59 Krock        they're not "next to each other". it's a different mentality
11:59 tenplus1     hi fussel
12:00 tenplus1     and yeah Krock, something seem soff
12:00 tenplus1     *seems off
12:00 Krock        however, that image is from wikipedia
12:00 tenplus1     lol, wiki isn't always right
12:01 IhrFussel    Hi there^^ Don't you go a bit too far on xanadu regarding banning of players for silly/no reasons? From what I read in the forum post the player shares their IP with a sibling and got banned for "multi account use" with no way of proving they are separate people
12:02 tenplus1     fussel, what you read on the forum isnt always what happens, admin ban/limit people for a reason
12:03 IhrFussel    For a silly reason often...this is not the first time I saw someone complaining about your rules
12:03 IhrFussel    Maybe you should consider to be more fair towardas players
12:03 IhrFussel    towards*
12:04 IhrFussel    Or the admin rather
12:05 IhrFussel    He already joined my server once and said "who are you to tell me how to run my server" pretty immature statement
12:05 tenplus1     Shinji'a word is final, he owns server
12:05 IhrFussel    No IRC, no forum account, no way of contacting him outside the game it seems...bad practice IMO
12:06 tenplus1     he doesn't want anyone contacting him
12:06 IhrFussel    Then he is bad admin
12:06 tenplus1     forum is there which I check daily if anything crops up
12:07 tenplus1     and you will find that players tend to complain even after there was justified reason to kick/ban them
12:07 IhrFussel    That's normal but sometimes his reasoning is beyond ridiculous
12:07 tenplus1     you can look back in the forum and find people pleading innocence until many ppl believe them, then the actual screenshots of what they said/did crop up and they disappear...
12:07 IhrFussel    Quite a few people already told me how he hadnles certain cases
12:08 IhrFussel    handles*
12:09 IhrFussel    My players mostly say good things about you, but not about the server owner
12:10 tenplus1     he plays on server but doesnt suffer fools...
12:12 IhrFussel    He acts like a child at times
12:12 IhrFussel    From what stories I hear
12:12 tenplus1     he's really an ok guy, just doesnt like players complaining/arguing
12:13 IhrFussel    Of course he is *allowed* to act however he wants but then he must live with the backlash
12:14 IhrFussel    And you don't find it weird that the server owners avoids any kind of communication outside the game? No way to send a complaint about something?
12:14 IhrFussel    owner*
12:15 tenplus1     he has a busy life fussel and can't always be into the game itself, that's why I'm here
12:16 IhrFussel    My question is why is he the owner of a server but only appears on his server and neither on IRC/forums/xanadu website (if exists)
12:17 IhrFussel    To me it looks like "if i ban someone then i don't wanna deal with complaints no matter tzhe ban reason"
12:17 IhrFussel    "everything i do is right and the world has to accept what i say because it is just right"
12:18 tenplus1     the fact he runs a server and keeps it up and running connected to a ups is more than enough, and I'm here to deal with everything else
12:19 IhrFussel    NO, it takes more than keeping a server running to be a good server owner...he is a joke in my eyes no matter how long he paid for the server, he doesn't take responsibility for it
12:20 ThomasMonroe who are we talking about?
12:20 tenplus1     hi thomas
12:20 ThomasMonroe o/
12:21 IhrFussel    ThomasMonroe, Mr server owner of xanadu
12:24 IhrFussel    To be clear: I don't expect from a "good server owner" to be online daily and talk to every player about everything ... but accepting critique/suggestions/complaints is required if you want to offer a public server...don't just put up a MT instance and do wahtever you want, that is NOT how you run a good server
12:25 IcyDiamond   i cant start minetest server
12:25 IcyDiamond   ./bin/minetestserver: /lib64/libstdc++.so.6: version `CXXABI_1.3.8' not found (required by ./bin/minetestserver)
12:25 IhrFussel    I avoid ANY server that has something along the lines of "what staff says is final, don't try to fight it"
12:25 IcyDiamond   although it built just fine
12:25 tenplus1     IcyDiamond: did you try:   minetest --server
12:26 IcyDiamond   i dont have minetest binary cuz i built just server
12:26 tenplus1     ohh, 0.5 or 0.4.17?
12:26 IcyDiamond   5.0
12:27 tenplus1     the scarey build
12:27 Krock        are you sure that you didn't do a distro upgrade in between?
12:27 IcyDiamond   i just built it..
12:28 Krock        https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23494103/version-cxxabi-1-3-8-not-found-required-by/23494975#23494975
12:32 Krock        maybe the cmake params are outdated
12:43 CWz          Ello
12:43 tenplus1     o/
12:47 xerox123     o/ o/
12:51 tenplus1     hi xerox
12:52 Krock        hi CWz. xerox123
12:55 sfan5        IcyDiamond: your minetest binary expects a different version of libstdc++ that you have installed
12:55 sfan5        which pretty much only happens if you downgrade packages after building or transfer a built binary from a different machine
12:56 BillyS       \o/
12:56 tenplus1     hi sfan, hey billy
13:00 BillyS       hi tenplus1
13:00 BillyS       My mod is a success!
13:00 BillyS       https://github.com/Billy-S/knockout
13:02 tenplus1     omg! lol, that is so funny :) knocking out players and carrying them around like a handbag :D
13:02 BillyS       yep. xD
13:02 Calinou      be sure to add a license :)
13:02 Calinou      https://choosealicense.com/
13:02 BillyS       It took a lot of messing with entities to get it to work
13:02 BillyS       Imma go with the Apache 2.0
13:03 Calinou      most mods use the MIT license now
13:03 Calinou      (it is compatible with Minetest's license, unlike Apache 2)
13:03 BillyS       ah
13:05 BillyS       hmmm
13:06 BillyS       maybe GNU General Public License v2?
13:06 Calinou      if you want to pick the same license as Minetest, use the LGPLv2.1 or later
13:06 Calinou      https://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl-2.1.html
13:06 BillyS       Nah, I'm just trying to find a licsense I like
13:07 tenplus1     how about: WTFPL
13:07 Calinou      (make sure to add an "or later" clause in the license notice, which you should add at the top of all your source files)
13:07 BillyS       lol
13:07 BillyS       Heck, Ill just got with MIT
13:08 tenplus1     :P
13:09 BillyS       I don't want people stealing my code and making it propritary
13:09 BillyS       That's my main reason I don't like WTFPL
13:09 tenplus1     I tend to use MIT for things like that
13:10 BillyS       Hmmm
13:10 BillyS       My knockout mod should have some was to jail players
13:10 BillyS       It's ment for PK, after all
13:10 BillyS       But I'd have to make it so that the player can escape somehow
13:13 rubenwardy   There are potential issues with GPL for mods
13:13 tenplus1     there are ?
13:13 rubenwardy   Another mod can't depend on it without being GPL itself
13:13 rubenwardy   Potentially
13:14 rubenwardy   Not sure if that counts as linking
13:15 rubenwardy   Yeah, quick Google looks like people agree
13:15 rubenwardy   There's also the issue of a GPL mod polluting the minetest namespace
13:15 BillyS       ah bleh
13:16 BillyS       Everyone should agree on one license to use
13:17 * tenplus1   always uses MIT license now
13:17 rubenwardy   LGPLv2.1+
13:17 rubenwardy   Well
13:17 rubenwardy   Or MIT
13:20 rud0lf       TANZ MIT MIR
13:20 tenplus1     o/ rud0lf
13:20 rud0lf       o/ tenplus1
13:26 tenplus1     hi DI3HARD139
13:26 DI3HARD139   hello
13:47 tenplus1     wb Krock
13:47 Krock        ty
13:48 tenplus1     lol, we have a player called Xanadu_News who finds out what's going on and makes a bulletin board for players :) hah
13:49 rud0lf       nice
13:49 rud0lf       "Strange creature found near coal mines!"
13:49 rud0lf       "Citizens are thrilled to let kids play alone!"
13:49 tenplus1     for a survival world it's great how players work together to make things like this, and public farms etc
13:49 Krock        "life found on mars. it's sam"
13:50 tenplus1     "Sam's face found in a door in Texas"
13:53 tenplus1     wb Megaf
13:57 tenplus1     wb entuland
13:58 entuland     o/*
13:58 entuland     that's a cupcake
13:58 rud0lf       at your armpit?
13:58 tenplus1     o/*  looks just like my starfruit
13:59 entuland     sure, doesn't everybody carry them under the armpit just like baguettes in france?
13:59 tenplus1     keeops them warm ::PPP
14:00 entuland     :)
14:01 tenplus1     o/
14:01 Krock        ree
14:02 Krock        no idea why it happened but my system froze completely
14:02 tenplus1     winblows or linux ???
14:04 IhrFussel    entities still get removed when the attached player logs off ... for cars with 2 seats even if just the passenger loses connection the car is gone
14:04 tenplus1     ouch
14:06 entuland     60MPH on rough gravel... tough landing
14:06 IhrFussel    Happened in 0.4 backport from Dec already and now in 0.4.17.1 ... can someone check on other servers? Just join, enter a cart (or other attachable entity) and reconnect, then see if the entity is gone
14:07 Krock        tenplus1: linux. it experienced a crash when I fired the computer up from sleep mode
14:08 Krock        all apps were closed anyway.. a bit suspicious
14:08 tenplus1     ahh, something not enabling properly from sleep
14:10 Krock        xorg had a crash, then ubuntu said something about "oopsie whoopsie a crash happened". however, I could compile most of Minetest until it froze
14:11 tenplus1     I uninstall whoopsie and the crash handler... is more annoying than anything
14:18 IhrFussel    What the heck happens on my server right now...player count went from 15 to 45 in matter of minutes
14:19 tenplus1     rush hour
14:20 Krock        classes finished
14:20 tenplus1     Shara: are abritorches suppose to be hot / able to start fires ???
14:20 xerox123     oh shit, IhrFussel. are they all guests?
14:20 Krock        The Great Rush Of Kids
14:20 tenplus1     Guest007 :P dun du dun dun dun dun dun
14:20 xerox123     just noticed the rush of guests that tried to join
14:21 xerox123     on my server ^
14:22 DI3HARD139   Good sir. Is the wonderful tool of yours public?
14:22 DI3HARD139   this*
14:22 Krock        indeed a flood of guests
14:23 xerox123     DI3HARD139: yeah, mod called no_guests, but I added another regex pattern I saw in the forum thread and a Krock tweak to exempt myself from the pattern
14:23 tenplus1     good idea
14:23 DI3HARD139   No I mean the web control panel
14:24 xerox123     o
14:28 ANAND        Is it possible to rotate a wield-item to make it point forward?
14:29 Krock        rotate the inventory image
14:30 IhrFussel    Map loads slow again, no stalling (yet)
14:30 ANAND        Krock, do you mean the wield_image? I specified different inventory and wield images :)
14:30 Krock        increase your simultaneous block sends
14:31 Krock        ah, wield image then
14:31 ANAND        ok thanks!
14:33 IhrFussel    Is 10 not enough?
14:34 xerox123     for all those people, no
14:34 tenplus1     wb raven
14:35 Krock        per client: 40. total: somewhere 300 maybe
14:35 Raven262     ty ten
14:35 Krock        or even 400 total
14:41 ANAND        The position field of an HUD element can take values from 0 to 1. So to centre an element on the screen, should I go with {x = 0.5, y = 0.5}?
14:42 tenplus1     yeh
14:42 ANAND        Alright, I'll try it out
14:43 ANAND        It works :D
14:43 tenplus1     yay
14:44 ANAND        Is it possible to hide all the hud elements by removing them one-by-one using :hud_remove() with their IDs?
14:45 tenplus1     I think HUD has an actual visible flag
14:45 ANAND        I'm planning on displaying one HUD element and hiding the rest while it's visible
14:47 ANAND        So I could manually get the defs of all the other hud elements using :hud_get()
14:47 ANAND        Store them, and then :hud_remove() them
14:48 ANAND        But where do I get the IDs of all of a player's hud elements? :S
14:49 ANAND        Whoa, the Travis-CI build was running for 26 minutes! Is it just me or is Travis taking way too long nowadays?
14:50 tenplus1     so much has been added prolly
14:51 tenplus1     ANAND: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/players/hud.html
14:51 rubenwardy   Btw
14:51 rubenwardy   !book hud
14:51 MinetestBot  rubenwardy: HUD - https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/
14:51 rubenwardy   Oh noes
14:51 Krock        fail
14:51 rubenwardy   That's the wrong URL
14:51 rubenwardy   Oops
14:52 rubenwardy   Looks like I broke it
14:52 tenplus1     heh, hi ruben
14:53 ANAND        lol
14:55 tenplus1     o/ paramat
14:55 ANAND        That page still doesn't help me with getting the IDs of all of a player's HUD elements :/
14:55 rubenwardy   You can't
14:55 rubenwardy   Why do you need to?
14:55 ANAND        I'm planning on displaying one HUD element and hiding the others while it's visible
14:56 tenplus1     check out wuzzy's hudbars for information on usage and how to hide
14:56 ANAND        Will do, thx
15:03 tenplus1     hi tumeninodes
15:04 tumeninodes  Hi tenplus1
15:04 tenplus1     whassup tumeni ?
15:04 tumeninodes  license loonies
15:04 tenplus1     oh, what happened ?
15:05 rubenwardy   !book hud
15:05 MinetestBot  rubenwardy: HUD - https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book//en/players/hud.html
15:05 rubenwardy   There we are
15:05 tumeninodes  I was just looking over all the license threads popping up
15:06 tenplus1     scarey huh
15:06 tumeninodes  unfortunately many do not seem to understand licensing in the first place
15:06 ANAND        Aha, I guess just hiding the default hud bars and hot-bar is enough for me... ;)
15:07 ANAND        rubenwardy: I see an extra '/' in the URL :)
15:07 tumeninodes  then come the radical this ways, and the radical that ways
15:08 rubenwardy   Yeah, can't fix this cleanly now
15:09 rubenwardy   !title https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20578
15:09 MinetestBot  rubenwardy: The use of GPL mods - Minetest Forums
15:11 tumeninodes  existential GPL
15:12 tumeninodes  so from now on, when node defs are modified, have a popup screen which rolls credits :D
15:13 tumeninodes  but do it like star wars opening with scrolling text and bg music
15:15 tenplus1     lol
15:17 tenplus1     hi fixer
15:17 Fixer        hi
15:26 Calinou      rubenwardy: I would argue that it's akin to dynamic linking since the user is able to replace the other part
15:26 Calinou      the LGPL *does* allow static linking to proprietary software, but the user needs to be able to replace the library.
15:26 rubenwardy   Does GPL actually have a dynamic linking exception?
15:26 rubenwardy   This isn't about LGPL
15:26 rubenwardy   That's obviously fine
15:26 Calinou      there are two ways to achieve this: 1) distribute the object code (.o) files, 2) release the source (even under a restrictive license)
15:31 tumeninodes  just add a sub license
15:32 Fixer        Jeeez
15:32 Fixer        debian has apt now?
15:33 tumeninodes  A sub license can be granted to a third party to extend usage exceptions, even under an NC license
15:33 Fixer        it was apt-get, then aptitude, then it was kinda WTF, and then it is apt?
15:33 benrob0329   Hi tenplus1
15:34 benrob0329   Autogreeter on the fritz today? :P
15:34 tumeninodes  a sub license can be granted for any restrictive license, by the license holder
15:34 tenplus1     hi benrob0329
15:34 tenplus1     ehehe, we had a tardis competition on xanadu earlier :D
15:35 tumeninodes  pimp my tardis?
15:35 tenplus1     yup
15:35 tumeninodes  haha
15:35 benrob0329   Oh cool, wish I could've been there :D
15:35 tenplus1     got some blue carpet and a homedecor cube light and made an awesome one with a toilet inside D
15:36 benrob0329   I think I might have been able to impress, I have some experience :P
15:36 tumeninodes  should've used the lava lamp
15:36 tenplus1     hah yeah
15:36 tenplus1     wait, we dont have that... ahaha, homedecor mod we run is LITE
15:36 tumeninodes  a little poo-zen
15:37 tenplus1     ever noticed how cooked rat looks just like a poo ?!/!
15:37 tumeninodes  dude..., I just ate
15:37 benrob0329   It does doesn't it..
15:37 tenplus1     lol, sorry tumeninodes
15:38 tumeninodes  s'ok, my rat didn't look like poo
15:38 tumeninodes  afk for a few
15:42 tenplus1     back in a bit... food calls :D
15:53 * Sokomine   melts away due to the heat and searches for an ice biome
15:55 tumeninodes  hi Sokomine. Freezers make nice ice biomes
15:56 * Sokomine   climbs into one and closes the door behind her
15:56 tumeninodes  So, my comments about sub license has nothing to do with what rubenwardy and Calinou were talking about btw :D
15:58 tumeninodes  I think, IMO, NC-type licenses could be allowed, as long as they offer a sub license, which is specific
15:59 tumeninodes  meaning to grant permissions to use the works for the purposes of related youtube reviews on a monetized channel
16:00 tumeninodes  basically the license holder is paying a small advertising fee to the reviewer (usually, extremely small fee under youtubes' payout scale)
16:02 tumeninodes  MT/MTG related 'commercial use' mostly falls under works shown on youtube anyway. And the basis of NC still stands in any usage, outside of that factor
16:03 tumeninodes  ND though, does not fit into the entire MT/MTG environment, so I strongly agree with that being disallowed
16:04 Sokomine     trouble is that the distinction between "commercial" and "non-commercial" as applied by courts does not reflect what one might commonly expect
16:05 tumeninodes  There is nothing wrong with an individual wishing to protect from others using their work for a substantial, capital gain
16:05 tumeninodes  but a court does have to follow the wording of a license
16:06 Sokomine     yes. but substantial, capital gain..that's not what courts seem to think of
16:06 tumeninodes  but the wording has to be put in use in a proper manner
16:09 tumeninodes  The license holder only need state a use exception. But to be quite specific
16:09 tumeninodes  other than that exception, the NC clause holds firm
16:11 Calinou      tumeninodes: that's not what sublicensing is about
16:11 Calinou      sublicensing is allowed by permissive licenses, but is not allowed by copyleft licenses
16:11 Calinou      by the way, the NC clause has many exceptions that most people don't seem to be aware of :)
16:12 Calinou      for instance, it's allowed to sell a NC-licensed work to cover the costs of distribution/shipping/handling
16:12 Calinou      (as long as the cost only does that, and is not intended to create a profit)
16:12 Calinou      recent versions (4.0 especially) have more exceptions than older ones
16:12 tumeninodes  sub license - a license or contract granted to a third party by a licensee for specified rights or uses of a product, brand name, logo, etc.
16:14 tumeninodes  that is my understanding of the definition of sun license
16:14 tumeninodes  it gives the license holder, power to grant special rights, for specific usage
16:15 Sokomine     as long as it's your own work you can grant diffrent licenses to diffrent people the way you want
16:16 tumeninodes  but, this is why I feel NC licenses should actually be allowed.
16:16 tumeninodes  ND has no place in the community though,
16:18 tumeninodes  Calinou, I know you definitely have a better grasp on licensing, than myself. It would be nice if you would take a moment and make a post related to the topic. As it seems licensing concerns are popping up all over lately
16:20 tumeninodes  Sokomine, I don;t believe you can grant a diff license to various people, only exceptions within the chosen license
16:22 tumeninodes  but wait..., ALL CC licenses are 'copyleft'
16:22 sfan5        rubenwardy: the server list uses 2 worker threads
16:23 sfan5        the code starts a separate thread to handle announces though, so request don't (shouldn't) block
16:23 sfan5        requests*
16:24 tumeninodes  sorry, only the SA are copyleft, my bad
16:26 rubenwardy   Pretty sure you can sublicense a GPL work, if you own all the rights
16:26 rubenwardy   Like, license to someone under something other than GPL
16:26 tumeninodes  SO, a BY-NC-SA, is not allowed to have exceptions? Even if they are related only to the NC clause?
16:27 tumeninodes  rubenwardy, that sounds like it could cause some confusion/complications down the road.
16:27 rubenwardy   Probably
16:28 tumeninodes  So if you have a work under GPL, yet you release it to someone else, under a different license
16:28 rubenwardy   I'm pretty sure there are some projects that do this - use a copyleft license but then offer a permissive license to be purchased
16:28 tumeninodes  now there are two of the same work under two licenses...
16:29 rubenwardy   That's what sublicensing is though?
16:29 tumeninodes  well yeh, but that is normally used as a gimmick
16:29 Sokomine     we could need something that covers what you want. it's not too dissimilar from what i'd like. just something like that (yes, people using it on servers is no problem, even when asking for donations, youtubers are no problem in general, normal webpages are not...but if a more significant amount of money is gained with it it isn't ok anymore)
16:29 tumeninodes  though I am not sure offering a free trial which is a portion of a licensed work is the same thing
16:31 tumeninodes  Sokomine, those are 'exceptions'
16:31 tumeninodes  But I think Calinou is saying they are not allowed when SA clause is involved as well?
16:32 tumeninodes  which honestly does not make sense to me but...
16:33 tumeninodes  my cousin is a lawyer for a huge company, I'll have to ask him to look into this next time I see him
16:36 Sokomine     when NC is involved, people may still ask you for a more permissive license. wasn't there something about people abusing that some time ago?
16:37 tumeninodes  SA itself is non-negotiable, I think. But NC is allowed exceptions, as stated. If exceptions are allowed for NC, then that means they are still allowed, even when combined with the SA clause
16:38 tumeninodes  More permissive 'exceptions' would be more appropriate
16:38 tumeninodes  not entirely relicensing
16:40 tumeninodes  and... while on the topic... ALL work under CC-BY-SA 3.0 should be updated to 4.0. WHich is allowed as it is only upgrading to the latest version, I do not believe permission is required by original authors
16:40 twoelk       I guess choosing the right license will have to become the first course in any creativity teaching in the future
16:40 tumeninodes  the license, itself is not being changed, just the updated
16:40 tumeninodes  twoelk... it really should be part of the curriculum
16:41 twoelk       want to become an artist? go to law school first
16:41 tumeninodes  ha
16:43 twoelk       inb4 all schools start with a year of law first
16:44 tumeninodes  paramat, what do you think? Wanna go through and update all the CC-BY-SA 3.0 to 4.0? :D
16:45 paramat      no :D
16:45 tumeninodes  party pooper
16:45 twoelk       it really is somewhat difficult telling kids that they may not create any derivates of their favorite heroes or storys or random toys once they start to get creative
16:46 tumeninodes  it's easy..., well if you enjoy watching kids cry... which I do, so...
16:46 tumeninodes  "D
16:47 twoelk       minetest mods are actually full of fan art - big grey zone out there
16:47 tumeninodes  very true
16:48 tumeninodes  well I gotta go get ready for an appointment \o
16:51 twoelk       my nephews once added some yellow minion related nodes to our private mt-game aka Apfelschorle. When I challanged them to add something original they had to think up themselves they went somewhat ... blank. their point wasn't coding something cool but simply adding minions. coding was just the way to get it done
17:06 paramat      > "I avoid ANY server that has something along the lines of "what staff says is final, don't try to fight it"" i would avoid any server without that. that rule is essential to avoid endless KGM-type tantrums, just look at the forum threads. only server owners can have the final decision, no-one else can
17:07 Calinou      any license can be negotiated with its copyright holder(s) :)
17:08 sfan5        paramat: why isn't he avoiding the forums then?
17:11 paramat      well, actually i mean 'reduce' not 'avoid'
17:15 paramat      and i mean 'on server', the forum is just an example of how bad the arguing is :)
17:16 rubenwardy   He doesn't do much of that on my server
17:16 IhrFussel    Every server owner should give players the option to "file a complaint" when they think they have been punished for a wrong/no reason
17:16 rubenwardy   Just joins to spam his broken cheat
17:17 IhrFussel    The implementation of that can vary from server to server...PM in forum, message in IRC, email etc
17:18 paramat      file a complaint to who though? the admins who just decided? EU court of human rights? :)
17:18 rubenwardy   A moderator could have made the decision
17:21 paramat      yeah. but players usually already have a way to dispute a decision
17:22 paramat      as said, tenplus is there for that
17:28 twoelk       still IhrFussel at some point there is a final decision and no quarantee that the player in distress accepts it - some will just go on fighting
17:28 paramat      so then the moderator and admin will discuss and the admin will reassess and make a final decision, and we're back to the same rule again :)
17:28 paramat      yep
17:30 paramat      the impression i get is that Ihr is actually a worse server admin than most for being too soft, but also preaches a lot about others being worse :)
17:30 IhrFussel    You should provide the player simply a way to let you know "hey i think i was punished in error" then you should re-read what happened (in case it wasn't you (owner)) and decide whether or not the ban was fine
17:30 Shara        Every so often someone joins #minetest moaning that x server banned them but boohoo they are innocent and the admin/moderator/goldfish who happened to have the ban priv is evil and mean
17:31 Shara        It's happened with RC bans before... and the player is asking for the IRC channel which is invite only... so they can try and join and spam us out
17:32 IhrFussel    That's not what I mean Shara ... I'm not talking about those crybabies that just can't accept that they broke rules and got punished for it...I'm talking about cases where it may not be as black and white and the staff/violating player need to meet somewhere in the middle
17:32 Shara        And I am pretty sure there are people who have believed those players and they now think that I / my moderators / my non-existent pet goldfish are evil and mean
17:32 Shara        Fussel, it is exactly what you mean even if you can't say it.
17:32 Shara        see*
17:33 Shara        You are choosing to think the player is truthful and the admin is not.
17:36 IhrFussel    No, I respect every player and I thought that's the general opinion with server owners...and if I respect every player then every player got the equal rights on my server and staff is *not* above players so if staff did something wrong then I of course reconsider what the staff did and might undo the punishment
17:37 * twoelk     has a second identity on quite a few servers just to get himself out of protected holes he fell into in the dark
17:39 twoelk       and I do often share an IP with others -  most don't have an individuell router for everyone in every house or place they go online at
17:40 Shara        Fussel: ultimate issue is no one can police the admin (unless they do something that is actually illegal... and then the police can :P)
17:41 Shara        You can decide what you think player rights on all servers should be, but actually it's the server owner who decide what a player's rights are (again, so long as it's not literally illegal somehow)
17:41 Shara        decides*
17:43 IhrFussel    twoelk, and would you be fine with being banned cause "you have more than 1 account" without any way to give some sort of feedback or get the chance to prove that you're separate persons?
17:44 IhrFussel    my issue with the xanadu server owner is mainly that he doesn't give banned players a way to talk to him about what happened...cause he has no forum account, no (known) IRC account, no website...nothing
17:44 IhrFussel    He is basically isolated from the world in his xanadu bubble
17:47 twoelk       he has a tenplus1 :-D
17:48 Shara        Does that make it okay to constantly insult how someone else's server is managed?
17:50 sofar        can we keep the server/admin drama on each respective server, perhaps?
17:51 paramat      Ihr tenplus deals with that and can talk to the owner, and probably does, why imply otherwise?
17:53 IhrFussel    So you don't see what's wrong with no direct way of communication between players and server owners...then it#s no use to discuss any further with you...seems like our views are galaxies apart
17:54 Shara        Got to agree with sofar really... (hi sofar!)
17:57 paramat      Ihr i just said, there is tenplus who probably talks with the owner about situations. you're implying a lot
17:59 paramat      erm, talking generally, i think it's fine for a server owner to not want to communicate with anyone except other admin. personally i couldn't cope with ranting kids :)
18:09 twoelk       after all - minimal admin interaction servers have been a quite popular experiment and some managed quite well - for some time at least
18:10 sfan5        i count at least 3 anarchy servers
18:11 twoelk       well, anarchy isn't the only form and by far not the best
18:11 IhrFussel    1 more message regardung this topic: Shinji_Ikari in case you read the IRC logs I invite you to my server and then we can discuss how you handle/manage your server and how I handle/manage mine
18:11 IhrFussel    regarding*
18:11 paramat      i was actually contacted privately by a player on Ihr's server who told me that Ihr is too soft on troublemakers and this was affecting other player's enjoyment ;)
18:11 twoelk       oops
18:13 twoelk       I di think though IhrFussel  can manage his server just as he pleases and in turn has to accept that others may also do exactly that
18:13 IhrFussel    You cannot please everybody, but I rather act nice and reasonable than being an asshole towards my players and punishing them (too heavy) for something they might not even have done in the first place
18:14 twoelk       be carefull with all the being nice to players that you don't act like an ... to fellow server admins :-D
18:15 IhrFussel    My server got a /feedback and a /report ... I really offer MANY ways to communicate with me... offline messages exist too and mailboxes for books...players can tell me their opinion as much as they like
18:15 twoelk       giving interesting advice on difficult issues is nice but don't become a fanatic missionary
18:16 IhrFussel    Players may critize my actions or suggest changes...that is no crime on my server and encouraged
18:16 Sokomine     paramat: ihrfussel is a fine server admin and does well :-) so does shara. and vanessea of course has proven to be a very good server admin for a long time
18:17 * twoelk     desperately needs some time to do some extensive server touring again
18:17 shivajiva    having a reputation as a pushover is as bad as having a reputation for being over zealous, both attract different kinds of trolls and different levels of damage. Is this some kind of competition?
18:17 Sokomine     Shara: ah, well, i'm afraid the earth would be heavily overpopulated if all those claimed siblings that are blamed with having done griefing (back in mc days) would actually exist :-)
18:18 Shara        Sokomine: yup :)
18:18 IhrFussel    I never said that I'm on some kind of "mission" to convince server owners to change/be like me... All I did was kinda ranting about a certain server owner who is unreachable for the average player and instead sends tenplus1 to deal with the complaints
18:19 shivajiva    you should join Xanadu and have a conversation with shinji rather than disrespect someone not present to defend themselves imo
18:20 * twoelk     largest group visit to a mt server, some 3 years ago was 7 players, all sitting at the same table, was fun, though hard on the connection
18:20 shivajiva    that's what I did
18:20 Sokomine     IhrFussel: no :-) your views are close together. at least as far as what you consider "right". you just want a formal law
18:20 IhrFussel    Do you actually really think that he would DISCUSS with another server owner who critizises him for his actions?
18:21 IhrFussel    He resides in his bubble for a reason and I thought that was obvious
18:21 twoelk       you would have to change some of your tone
18:22 shivajiva    that's my point, don't criticize before you have the facts, you lost the ability to have a discourse because you didn't go ask Shinji before making a fuss
18:23 Sokomine     twoelk: server touring is a lot of fun. there are diffrent mods to explore and diffrent textures to build with. that's why i'm so often not on those servers where i like the way of administration most. just...curiosity
18:23 IhrFussel    I offered him indirectly earlier to come to my server where nobody gets kicked/banned for critique ... there's nothing else I can do..either he accepts my invitation or he ignores it
18:23 shivajiva    how magnanimous of you
18:23 benrob0329   To be honest, I dont find long-term builds and survival runs fun
18:24 benrob0329   But something like, that Tardis building contest Xanadu had would have been fun
18:24 paramat      after all the preaching i doubt anyone would want to discuss server management with you ;)
18:24 Sokomine     IhrFussel: it's not bad for xanandu if tenplus1 does the communication with the rest of the world. i don't know if and to what degree he does. i think shinji could profit from talking to other server admins from time to time (as we all can) but maybe he doesn't have the time
18:27 twoelk       IhrFussel: could you really accept if he just sticks to his ways? I fear you would keep on argueing until you get annoying
18:27 Sokomine     i've even myself accidently rollbacked a player on one of vanessaes servers. his actions looked like griefing...but he was just a child :-(. we're all prone to errors
18:28 * twoelk     remembers that one
18:29 IhrFussel    paramat, you don't even play on my server you have absolutely NO CLUE what work I've done on my server whatsoever... you also have no clue about the "level of respect" my players pay me ... I can manage my server just fine and if yu don't believe it I'm sorry, but I want to show the strict server owners that it's NOT required for a server owner to be an asshole
18:30 IhrFussel    You can earn respect in other ways than being GOD
18:30 sofar        stop it
18:30 * benrob0329 feels that this may be going on a bit long now
18:31 sofar        that's enough already
18:31 sofar        next topic, please
18:33 * twoelk     is now going to test looping through folders with git remote set-url origin https://notabug.org/tenplus1/%.git
18:34 twoelk       lol, that wasn't suposed to become a link in irc
18:34 * Sokomine   secretly feels happy about there beeing so many server owners who do the work and take it seriously and secretly tries to convince sofar that less jumping might be better :)
18:34 twoelk       no, serverhopping is cool ;-P
18:35 * twoelk     should really try another box
18:35 Sokomine     my update-git script gets stuck now in some repros as those have been moved. sometimes it's a simple replacement, but sometimes more hidden
18:36 benrob0329   Inb4 clustergit
18:36 paramat      !next
18:36 MinetestBot  Another satisfied customer. Next!
18:38 twoelk       that was unfair paramat :-D updating git clones has become quite an issue
18:41 benrob0329   https://github.com/mnagel/clustergit
18:44 twoelk       hm, not really a solution
18:48 * twoelk     moves his batchfile out of the testing zone
18:53 tenplus1     hi peeps
18:53 tenplus1     :P
18:53 Shara        Hi tenplus1
18:54 tenplus1     hey shara :)
18:54 tenplus1     quick question, are abritorches meant to burn ? as in cause fires ?
18:54 Shara        Hmm, not really.
18:54 tenplus1     was wondering, cause they are mostly crystal based
18:54 twoelk       yay I just updated all my tenplus1 mods in one go
18:54 tenplus1     hi twoelk
18:55 twoelk       o/
18:55 Shara        At least for the "correct" version (when using them with CRL...) they are meant to be kind of magical in nature
18:55 tenplus1     a player was using them and they melted ice/snow... had no idea they were meant to do that :D
18:56 twoelk       now I just need to sort my hundreds of cloned mods according to the git-hosts they fled to
18:56 * tenplus1   calls in Esther Ranson to track down lost git-hosts
18:57 Shara        Maybe something in groups?
18:57 tenplus1     could be the torch=1 group
18:58 tenplus1     makes abms think it's a normal torch :)
18:58 Shara        Yea, probably you have something deciding that means things melt
19:03 BillyS       I have a very wierd issue
19:03 BillyS       My mod registers a globalstep, which displays a formspec to a player every second
19:04 BillyS       But it doesn't display it if the player's hp is <= 0
19:04 BillyS       However, when the player dies, they don't get the "You died" message
19:04 BillyS       They just sortta get turned into a ghost
19:04 tenplus1     weird
19:05 BillyS       If I remove the line that shows the formspec, it all works just fine ...
19:05 twoelk       if anybody wants to do some batch comand to git folders this might be usefull -> https://pastebin.com/FZnFnvwK
19:05 tenplus1     wb aerozoic
19:06 aerozoic     thx
19:09 BillyS       ahhh I found the issue
19:09 tenplus1     kewl
19:09 tenplus1     Shara: updated ethereal, was using group:torch and told it not to :D
19:10 tenplus1     also toolrank support for crystal sword now :D
19:11 Shara        Ohhhh
19:11 Shara        I still want toolranks to add more than durability :D
19:12 tenplus1     oh it will, in 0.5.0 since we can dynamically change tool capabilities :)
19:12 tenplus1     we already have a tinkers mod like in mc to try it out :0
19:14 Shara        Nice
19:15 Shara        I really want something where you have a crafting skill level, and depending on that you can get modifiers on things you craft with different effects
19:18 tenplus1     I'd be happy with an enchanting table being able to finally change a tool specs live :)
19:41 tenplus1     nite all o/
20:49 Sokomine     Shara: adventuretest has such crafting skill levels to a degree. at the beginning, all crafted tools are already almost broken. it takes a high skill level to build a tool that will last for a while
20:49 Shara        I'd like something a bit more flexable than just increased durability