Time  Nick         Message
00:03 roben1430    hello netsplits my old friend
00:04 roben1430    I see you've come to crash my bridge again
00:22 rubenwardy   Found some Minetest reviews:  YOMYGOSH :shock: How is it possible to render so much cubes ? :D I went very high and when I was looking down(sooooo many cubes down there :shock:), i've got 30fps,actually it was allways 30.
00:22 rubenwardy   HOLYY CRAPP HOW DID YOU MANAGE TO RENDER SO MANY CUBES AT ONCE WITHOUT DROPPING BELOW 30FPS???
00:22 rubenwardy   source: http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40468
00:49 roben1430    rubenwardy: heh
00:52 benrob0329   Test
00:52 roben1430    heyy
00:52 sofar        you are overrepresented
00:53 * rubenwardy sets ban on *@gateway/shell/matrix.org/*
00:53 roben1430    did you seriously just..really?
00:55 sofar        lmao
00:55 roben1430    that was uncalled for, and you failed
00:56 roben1430    rubenwardy--
00:56 * rubenwardy sets ban on *!*@*
00:56 roben1430    oh wait, I feel stupid
00:56 roben1430    *sigh*
00:56 rubenwardy   :)
00:56 roben1430    this client doesnt help
00:56 roben1430    sorry, been a full week
00:57 roben1430    rubenwardy++
00:57 Shara        :D
00:58 * roben1430  goes to the corner of embarrassment
12:05 Fixer        rubenwardy: DID NOT READ @ Probably, HOLY S___ OUR IRRLICHT IS SO ____TY YET THOSE GUYS MANAGED TO GO ABOVE #) FPS
12:13 rubenwardy   probably
15:20 Krock        hello tenplus1 who's apparently not here again to greet me first
15:20 rubenwardy   17 seconds
15:20 rubenwardy   he would have been you anyway
15:20 rubenwardy   *beat
15:20 Krock        I had to type more this time
15:20 Krock        of course I was faster if his name were on the list
15:21 Krock        thanks for your support :'(
15:22 benrob0329   Hello Krock, rubenwardy
15:23 Krock        hi benrob0329
15:23 Krock        changed from roben back to benrob?
15:23 benrob0329   Bridge is back up, so yes :P
15:25 benrob0329   Funny thing is that supposedly it was tge logging library that killed it, when the netsplits started happening thousand of people connected and disconnected all at once
15:25 Krock        lol. stop logging then :3
15:40 CWz          how does view db files?
15:59 Jordach      how do i make a function work inside of on_timer
16:00 Jordach      eg, on_timer = name_of_func(pos, elapsed)
16:00 benrob0329   Jordach: you call the function
16:01 benrob0329   I think just that works, or you may have to put that in an anonymous function body
16:58 Fixer        installed convInv for mc beta 1.7.3, playing with it on server = orgasmic (even MT has itty managment)
16:59 Fixer        I should really open an issue and describe all those badass shortcuts and methods of inv management that MT badly needs
16:59 Jordach      ^
16:59 shivajiva    CWz: I use SQLStudio personally for accessing the db's
16:59 Jordach      JUST DO IT
17:10 shivajiva    no advertising well known sportswear :P
17:19 Jordach      shivajiva, tfw you don't remember shia lebouf's memes
17:19 Jordach      or capture the flag
17:19 Jordach      FeelsBadMan
18:09 jas_         i went to go fix a crash in a mod, and now i'm waiting to see how many new crashes might happen *giggle* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZRRsEjkCGo
18:13 IhrFussel    I feel almost every day another new server pops up... the MT userbase cannot handle that
18:14 IhrFussel    It gets to ridiculous levels soon... last year AFAIK there were max 150 servers
18:16 IhrFussel    Shouldn't we start an official ad campaign (without money involved) ... like a Twitter campaign, Facebook... whatever
18:20 jas_         hmm
18:20 IhrFussel    Or (probably the less wanted option) should we probably hide inactive servers from the list?
18:20 jas_         interesting
18:21 jas_         go on
18:21 IhrFussel    I mean servers that are dead for a long time
18:22 jas_         you raise some fine points
18:22 Shara        Then they stay dead forever :)
18:22 jas_         it reminds me of the serverlist options, allowing a server to announce to a separate place
18:22 IhrFussel    Look at the server list right now: 250 servers for less than 1,000 players... this is crazy
18:22 jas_         and i always ending up fantasizing about server-to-server connections whenever i think about this
18:23 Shara        There's nothing wrong with lots of servers there. Sure, more players would be nice, but activity and quality are often not related.
18:23 Shara        I doubt many players look at more than the top 20 servers ever
18:23 jas_         a lot of players want to make a server because they like other people's server, i think, and so they do.  good for them!
18:24 jas_         (i always used to say, "it's so easy, download minetest, open port, announce to master list, voila)
18:24 IhrFussel    It's totally random when a certain server receives players... yesterday I had 10+ players on my server for several hours, today (on a FRIDAY) I had *zero* a bit ago
18:24 jas_         nothing is random
18:24 benrob0329   Categories?
18:24 Shara        So maybe your players are mostly in a certain timezone?
18:24 jas_         and with that, i return to uhh, my coffee
18:24 Shara        benrob0329: Lots of people have asked for ways to sort the list
18:24 Shara        Someone needs to make it though.
18:24 benrob0329   Like, different game types
18:25 IhrFussel    No the timezone doesn't matter...it was the fact that my server had 0 players for some hours which let it drop to the bottom of the list so no one could find it
18:25 jas_         it's at the top for people who played there previously, right?
18:25 jas_         unless they click "del. favorite"
18:25 Shara        Yup
18:25 IhrFussel    Yes but only for those... new players will likely not find it
18:25 Shara        Which is why time zone of your regulars matters. They will join no matter where it is
18:26 Shara        The times they are online are the times your server then goes up in the list letting you get more people... who also play at that same time
18:26 benrob0329   Minigames (CTF, Bed wars, skyblock), Survival (generally noncreative building), Creative, Roleplay (LoTT, Story, RPing)
18:26 jas_         i'm reminding of an episode of IASIP where mac and dennis try to get people to come to their bar by giving them free "certificates"
18:26 IhrFussel    Nope that's really not about timezones...my server was at 17:00 empty (5 PM on a Friday)
18:27 jas_         and with that i return to my uhh nevermind
18:27 * Shara      shrugs then
18:27 IhrFussel    5PM in Europe*
18:27 Shara        benrob0329: Yes, but people need to make those too
18:27 benrob0329   Default category, Other
18:27 Shara        I mean, guess what percentage of the public list is basically just MTG, or MTG + whatever mods some random person happened to think are 'cool' with no real thought beyond that?
18:28 benrob0329   Most of it, but then perhaps people would see how unbalenced the list is
18:28 Shara        And well, 23 of the current servers are mintesthosting ones. They are a big part of the increase
18:29 jas_         the more the merrier, just work on sorting the list on the backend and frontend.  particularly the frontend, with list sort
18:29 jas_         sort by #players, ping(lol), name a-z, etc.
18:29 jas_         uptime...
18:29 * Shara      wants an option to never see minetesthosting servers with 4 players max :)
18:29 jas_         a filter text bar, so you could do -players<4 or whatever it is
18:30 jas_         -players<5 -pvp +creative
18:31 jas_         would show creative, not pvp, and not servers with less than 5 players (just a thought)
18:31 jas_         would be complicated for me to try and do
18:31 Shara        We've all had thoughts, or lots of us have
18:31 Shara        But yea.. needs someone to actually make it
18:31 jas_         i would be happy with just the text filter bar, and no buttons/checkboxes/tabheaderthings
18:32 jas_         it would allow to sort easily, "VanessaE" and see only her servers, for example
18:32 jas_         hi
18:32 jas_         or Vaness
18:32 Shara        Doesn't the current client search already do something like that?
18:32 RobbieF      +1 - I like this idea. Would make it much easier to find specific servers when the list is long.
18:32 jas_         i dunno
18:33 jas_         there's client search?
18:33 jas_         oh it does
18:33 jas_         LOL!
18:33 Shara        Open your client.. type something in that box wit a 'Search' button next to it?
18:33 jas_         geez i never even looked at this text box
18:33 jas_         o.m.g.
18:33 Shara        Maybe you should check what is available before saying you want things :P
18:33 jas_         -players<5 doesn't work
18:33 jas_         so that i still want
18:33 Shara        Of course not
18:33 Shara        It's just a text string thing now
18:33 jas_         and i'm glad my other want is already taken care of, that was quick
18:34 jas_         good to know
18:34 RobbieF      I'd also like to be able to filter out high pings
18:34 jas_         that much easier to add the other feature
18:34 Shara        You're welcome :P
18:34 Shara        RobbieF: pointless
18:34 RobbieF      though it should be a ping from the player client, not the server list server
18:34 jas_         ye there is no ping
18:34 jas_         right
18:34 jas_         but ye me too, i'd like that
18:34 Shara        Since ping listed is just to one place only... doesn't tell much
18:34 RobbieF      Shara that should be changed
18:34 RobbieF      or... "fixed"
18:34 RobbieF      client should show the ping from the client
18:34 Shara        But have to go.. party night with the work people
18:35 Shara        See you all :)
18:35 RobbieF      eg., how is the ping from ME, not minetest.net
18:35 RobbieF      \o Shara
18:35 RobbieF      have fun
18:35 jas_         there was an issue about that
18:35 jas_         it would be nice to see both max_lag from server, and ping relative to client
18:35 RobbieF      +3
18:35 jas_         both things as separate values
18:35 RobbieF      lag from server doesn't really matter though since it's region specific
18:36 jas_         it makes it easy to know if it's really far
18:36 RobbieF      eg., a server in my home city would have much better lag/ping for me than for you
18:36 jas_         if it says 250ms i know it's not so close
18:36 RobbieF      Oh yes; I thought you meant minetest.net server (as I was saying)
18:36 jas_         i dunno, i'm just used to seeing it in quake
18:36 jas_         where it pings each server on the master list and reports back the ms
18:36 RobbieF      I'd like to see the REAL ping/lag (relative to me) rather than relative to the server list
18:36 jas_         but max_lag is also a good value to know, or can be
18:37 jas_         ye i dunno why that's there, i'm not sure what use it is
18:37 RobbieF      accurate for the people on the same lan as the web site  :p
18:39 jas_         but if tables worked well enough, and i don't know that they don't
18:39 jas_         then they could be used to just show all this stuff, and the click the header
18:39 jas_         and sort by that, like in a file manager -> clicking date sorts by date, clicking size sorts by size, etc
18:40 jas_         and then that in addition to filtering with the text box, both the server name, and other values like number of players.
18:40 jas_         getting relative ping from client would need to be added for that info
18:43 jas_         i think it can be done with tablecolumns[]
18:44 jas_         so there's already a filter text box, that's sweet, just need more options than server name
18:44 jas_         and then tablecolumns[] maybe to allow sorting
18:44 jas_         hmmmm
18:46 IhrFussel    jas_, max_lag has nothing to do with the latency..it's the internal "lag" so delay from mods/mapgen/CPU
18:47 IhrFussel    And it's not accurate either ... avg lag is what /status (and possibly server list in game) need
18:49 jas_         i didn't say it was
18:49 jas_         i just said it's a nice value to have
18:49 jas_         in addition to network latency.
18:49 IhrFussel    servers.minetest.net already displays the "average machine delay" in lag so it shouldn't be too hard to distribute that info to all clients
18:50 jas_         it already is, in the form of "wifi signal bars"
18:50 jas_         for whatever reason
18:50 IhrFussel    No that's ping
18:50 jas_         oh
18:50 jas_         right that was sofar's pr lol
18:50 jas_         either way, all those values are nice
18:50 jas_         and then adding net lag would be awesome
18:51 jas_         and then extending filter text bar to filter values for lag, max_lag, ping, #players, #flags
18:51 jas_         (like creative/pvp)
18:51 sofar        only the client can see real ping
18:51 sofar        ping is relative to the player
18:51 jas_         in the search text bar... and then tablecolumns[] to sort the results
18:51 jas_         i didn't really realize there was a filter text bar, but it only works on server's name.
18:52 IhrFussel    I think core devs refused to add "real pinging" cause it causes too much load on the server list/servers if each client requests one whenever the user clicks the Online tab
18:52 IhrFussel    Or there was maybe also something about privacy concerns...not sure now
18:52 jas_         or maybe there isn't any dev making that pr
18:52 jas_         i don't know
18:52 sofar        no
18:53 jas_         but it is not an uncommon thing, in games, to get the ping of the server you may wish to connect to
18:53 sofar        it wasn't added because nobody wrote a PR
18:53 sofar        the whole argument is nonsense anyway - it causes too much server stress? what?
18:53 sofar        the whole system is designed to handle lots of udp packets easily
18:53 sofar        a few pings... not so problematic
18:54 IhrFussel    I read some discussion about it recently...maybe a few months ago ... there were definitely privacy concerns cause someone brought up the point that this is how other major games handle the server list ping
18:54 jas_         there was that
18:55 jas_         but there's probably a good workaround
18:55 jas_         (like not announcing LOL!)
19:00 IhrFussel    rubenwardy said it's bad for privacy "if we need ping, it would be better to host serverlist-style servers around the world, and have them ping each server. Players then connect to the closest one based on IP"
19:00 jas_         yea likely sounds good
19:01 jas_         but in the meantime
19:01 jas_         one could simply elect not to allow being pinged?  is that right?  if not, that's something that could be implemented?
19:01 jas_         just spitballin
19:01 IhrFussel    "every single person that opens up Minetest would have their IPs given to all servers"
19:01 jas_         well maybe there should be a "get new list" and "refresh" button
19:01 jas_         and get rid of the new auto grab list feature
19:02 jas_         because right now, sfan5 knows every time i launch minetest lol
19:03 jas_         (to be fair, that's only if the play online tab is open/selected)
19:29 sfan5        jas_: i can assure you that's very useful for statistic purposes
19:30 jas_         i agree
19:45 IhrFussel    We could add a button "request ping"
19:45 IhrFussel    That way only the servers we choose would get our IP
19:46 benrob0329   Or just, "Ping"
19:46 sfan5        or just .... "Refresh"
19:47 IhrFussel    sfan5, in terms of privacy concerns I mean adding a button to only manually ping the server we currently selected would be a solution
19:47 benrob0329   Can you anonymously ping?
19:49 IhrFussel    A request requires an IP AFAIK... the only way to "hide" the user's real IP when pingng would be through a VPN I think
20:00 IhrFussel    I meant a proxy* Although VPNs often include a proxy
20:02 RobbieF      Servers already get your IP address.
20:02 RobbieF      (when you connect)
20:06 IhrFussel    RobbieF, Yes but what we mean is pinging servers from the server list directly
20:06 RobbieF      yeah; without a connect
20:06 IhrFussel    To check beforehand if a certain server is responsive enough
20:07 RobbieF      but that's pretty typical of games.
20:07 IhrFussel    MT doesn't do that right now cause of privacy concerns
20:07 RobbieF      since it's direct to the Minetest server, you don't *have to* log the ip.
20:07 RobbieF      eg., write code to reply with the ping, but not log it.
20:08 benrob0329   RobbieF: someone could run a modified client
20:08 RobbieF      Meh, IP addresses should not be considered private.
20:08 IhrFussel    In Germany a court decided they are
20:09 benrob0329   Do normal pings get logged?
20:09 benrob0329   RobbieF: there is a reason Matrix and other modern chat services do server-side link previews
20:09 IhrFussel    I don't think MT itself logs the IP of the ping but the machine it's running on
20:10 benrob0329   IPs have been used maliciously
20:11 IhrFussel    Although it's very very very very *very* unlikely that a server owner would abuse a pinger's IP ... server owners have other problems honestly
20:13 benrob0329   https://theantisocialengineer.com/2016/10/10/imessage-preview-problems/
20:14 benrob0329   I think that Max_lag or average_lag is good for server information
20:23 rubenwardy   I don't want to ping every server on start up
20:23 rubenwardy   it's worth noting that there's a low key ex-community member that likes doing weird stuff with IPs
20:23 rubenwardy   and that's just people unfortunate enough to visit their server
20:24 rubenwardy   *website
20:31 sofar        I think we should just for now remove the column, since there is too much complaints about my PR, and the current signal bars are deceiving
20:31 rubenwardy   yeah, +1 for tha
20:33 sofar        maybe I'll just post essentially a git revert
20:38 RobbieF      I didn't say IP's can't be used maliciously... I said they are not private.
20:39 rubenwardy   true
20:39 Sokomine     regarding the server list: i'd still like to see how often i've visited a particular server. also the random order is very annoying. without search it's difficult to find a server again
20:39 benrob0329   Sokomine: we have search though
20:42 Sokomine     i'm not sure how much searching for lag on servers will help. as long as you're not fighting mobs, quite some lag might sum up before becoming problematic. "playable" is much more tricky to judge than just a mere number
20:44 benrob0329   Sokomine: ping is not as much if a problem as the time between globalsteps afaik
20:44 Sokomine     filter options for suitability for the player's need (building orientated, pvp, special game, test, ..) would also be nice
20:44 benrob0329   Because if the server is slow, it might still have a high ping, and vise versa
20:44 benrob0329   Sokomine: categories :P
20:45 RobbieF      +1
20:46 RobbieF      Had that thought too but though then the server admin would need an option to "set" these on their server.
20:46 rubenwardy   need a sortable table view
20:46 RobbieF      Eg., "Capture the Flag" could be an option, or "Creative Building" or so-on.
20:46 benrob0329   Default category is "other"
20:47 sofar        pvp is already a category
20:47 sofar        so is creative
20:47 sofar        in a way
20:47 RobbieF      those aren't categories
20:47 RobbieF      those are game type
20:47 benrob0329   Then "Survival", "Minigame", "Creative", Role Play
20:47 RobbieF      category would be the TYPE of creative, or TYPE of Survival
20:47 RobbieF      capture the flag is a category. Building is a category. Parkour is a category.
20:48 sofar        where would ITB fit?
20:48 benrob0329   I dont think we have enough for CTF or anything else to be its own category
20:48 RobbieF      also perhaps a flag for adults only is a good idea too
20:48 benrob0329   sofar: Minigame I suppose
20:48 RobbieF      but if I wanted to play CTF and there's 300 servers listed, it'd be nice to press a button that makes me see the 5 I want
20:49 RobbieF      even if there are only 5
20:49 benrob0329   RobbieF: you're go to minigames, of which there are maybe 15
20:49 sofar        itb is really not a minigame, considering its size
20:49 Sokomine     benrob0329: hmm. having to manually search because the list alone does not work could at best be called a workaround...
20:50 benrob0329   sofar: each box is like a minigame
20:50 sofar        nah, a minigame is something you can play for 5 minutes
20:50 sofar        some levels take people 2 hours
20:50 Sokomine     benrob0329: globalstep might be an issue, yes. or servers that have severe internal problems
20:50 sofar        besides, the creator mode isn't a minigame
20:50 benrob0329   sofar: true
20:50 sofar        and that's an important part of it
20:50 benrob0329   So, Puzzle? Other?
20:50 benrob0329   Idk where it'd fit
20:50 Sokomine     benrob0329: yes, categories, though a server might be part of more than one category. i'd also like to know the protection mod beforehand :-)
20:51 benrob0329   Sokomine: that should be in the long description imo
20:51 Sokomine     RobbieF: what's the problem with the server owner setting those options? we could provide help somewhere as to what each option means
20:52 Sokomine     sofar: hm, yes, in a way. a tiny symbol somewhere. can you even sort by it? and there's more...pvp on consensual basis vs. made-for-pvp vs. pve vs. gravity is the only enemy (or friend - if you want a short trip to spawn)
20:52 benrob0329   Multiple categories is a good idea though
20:53 Sokomine     capture the flag and parcour are both categories that probably don't hold many entries. they could be sumed up
20:53 benrob0329   Because a server might be survival roleplay, or Puzzle Adventure (ITB)
20:53 Sokomine     do we have servers for adults only? i don't know about such a one
20:53 Sokomine     benrob0329: "minigame" sounds like a good description
20:53 benrob0329   Survival Minigame
20:54 benrob0329   But how do we separate between "this server has this, but its mostly that"
20:54 Sokomine     sofar: itb is certainly building as well. and its own category
20:54 benrob0329   Because some minigames are survival, but miniagme servers really aren't survival servers
20:54 RobbieF      Sokomine - no problem with it at all - just saying that it would need to be added.
20:55 benrob0329   Puzzle Building
20:55 benrob0329   As in, both Puzzle and Building category
20:55 RobbieF      should be some kind of category5 for themes too... like our Lego server.
20:55 IhrFussel    IMO MT has wayyy too many game type options... MT is what the server owner mnakes it so there should simply be a "Custom" game type where servers fit that are not pre survival, creative or PvP
20:55 IhrFussel    pure*
20:56 Sokomine     benrob0329: the server owner has to decide
20:56 benrob0329   IhrFussel: thats why you should be able to add multiple categories
20:56 Sokomine     lego server?
20:56 benrob0329   Sokomine: ofc
20:57 Sokomine     IhrFussel: there's much between creative and purely pvp...the whole "survival" category covers a vast amount of servers. yet each is diffrent in its own way
20:57 IhrFussel    There are roleplay servers, medieval servers, MMO-esque servers (like mine), puzzle servers... I'm sure there's many more
20:58 benrob0329   What if we mix tags and categories
20:58 benrob0329   Each server has one category, the main theme
20:58 benrob0329   But can have many tags
20:59 IhrFussel    Where would roleplay fit? It can be both survival or/and creative ... or survival minus PvP or creative + PvP ... not easy to determine
20:59 Sokomine     in a way categories don't cover it entirely. perhaps the server owner ought to add points...so a creative server would probalby have building as "highly valued", while pvp would be "non-existant". a puzzle server would not go as high as 4 or 5 in the building category as that's not the main purpose of the server. these..er..mesewars or whatever servers would get a value of 0 because players don't
20:59 Sokomine     build anything lasting there at all
21:00 benrob0329   IhrFussel: roleplay should probably get its own category
21:00 benrob0329   Sokomine: I think thats overdoing it
21:00 Sokomine     extra category for roleplay sounds good
21:01 benrob0329   Just having tags to compliment categories would cover most use cases afaik
21:01 benrob0329   Survival and creative would be tags
21:01 Sokomine     server owners would have to ask themshelves: do they want players on their server who like that particular aspect and have expectations in that regard?
21:01 RobbieF      Some servers don't allow video recording. It might be nice to have a flag for servers that allow it.
21:01 benrob0329   RobbieF: could be a tag
21:01 RobbieF      another good flag "Moderated"
21:02 RobbieF      "Custom skins"
21:02 benrob0329   A roleplay server could be tagged with Survival, medieval, Building
21:03 IhrFussel    Tags sound good I think...but where would those be displayed?
21:03 sofar        custom skins isn't a game type, it's a fix for a missing feature in the engine :P
21:04 benrob0329   While something like ITB might be categorized as Puzzle, tagged with Creative, Adventure, Story
21:04 benrob0329   Or the like
21:04 benrob0329   Tags could be under the description, as icons defined by the list server
21:05 RobbieF      I don't think tags would need to be "displayed" - just treat them like keywords: able to filter by them
21:05 IhrFussel    It would be nice to see what else the server fits
21:05 benrob0329   That way new ones could be added in a moderated way, without the need to update the client
21:05 Sokomine     yes, using tags for filtering + displaying them when a server is selected
21:06 IhrFussel    No bad idea: Id I look for a specific tag but suddenly the server also has one I dislike
21:06 RobbieF      reveal on hover?
21:06 benrob0329   IhrFussel: thats a bad thing?
21:06 RobbieF      LOL Role play? Nice. Oh wait... BDSM.
21:07 IhrFussel    Tags should exist to tell the user beforehand whether or not they'd enhoy playing on that server... why would I play on one that has 2 tags in conflict with my preferences?
21:07 Sokomine     benrob0329: sure. if a server has building but also favors unlimited pvp, that's something i might dislike very much
21:07 benrob0329   BDSM?
21:07 IhrFussel    enjoy*
21:07 benrob0329   Sokomine: and you should know about it
21:07 RobbieF      DO NOT GOOGLE IT ben
21:07 RobbieF      lol
21:07 Fixer        why, mt = bdsm
21:08 RobbieF      bahaha
21:08 benrob0329   Mmmkay then
21:08 IhrFussel    Hovering is a problem on Android, it's better to not rely on it
21:08 Sokomine     yes, better show the categories once a server is selected
21:09 benrob0329   Display under description, along with filter buttons under the list
21:09 RobbieF      maybe expand on single click?
21:09 Sokomine     another point i forgot but which might be relevant to some: language! there are some that don't speak english yet
21:09 RobbieF      or make it reveal in the right panel?
21:09 RobbieF      VERY smart Sokomine - yes!
21:09 Sokomine     in a way this all gets too complicated for our poor server list :/ a website could probably do it better
21:09 RobbieF      It's difficult for non-english speaking people to join our servers where they must accept the English rules to gain interact.
21:10 RobbieF      nobody brings up web sites.
21:13 Sokomine     extremly annoying currently: i've joined that german mineclone2 server a few times. now i have to clean up my list because that server's ip is not static
21:14 RobbieF      doesn't have a hostname?!
21:15 IhrFussel    It shouldn't take too much space to display a few small image icons for the categories/tags...they'd fit just fine directly below the description
21:15 IhrFussel    The language(s) could also be image(s)
21:16 Sokomine     IhrFussel: trouble is that you need to create an icon for each category
21:16 IhrFussel    Only problem is that there are many country flags...much more than there would be categories/tags
21:18 IhrFussel    Sokomine, if MT wouldn't rely so much on localization (which isn't a bad thing) we could simply write the names on the images
21:19 IhrFussel    But to create a new image for each category for each language...that will add LOTS of files and work
21:20 IhrFussel    So yeah we will have to use symbols... How would you explain Roleplay as a symbol though?
21:20 IhrFussel    Or...could we use different colors for each category? And have a legend somewhere?
21:22 IhrFussel    Would be a problem for color blind people and there aren't *that* many very different colors
21:27 benrob0329   IhrFussel: roleplay would have what, some theater-type stuff to represent acting?
21:28 IhrFussel    benrob0329, that was just an example...there are some very serious role players in MT ... some play "family and children" others play "let's fight the big dragon" ... how would you draw a MMO-server?
21:28 IhrFussel    I mean a symbol for an MMO category
21:29 benrob0329   Lotta people on a globe?
21:29 benrob0329   Family RP doesn't get a tag..or maybe it should now that I think about it
21:30 benrob0329   Family + Masks for Family RP
21:31 IhrFussel    Another question would be: Will the symbols have enough pixels to even display the content correctly? I mean we cannot use 10x10 or something like that
21:31 benrob0329   Now that I think about it, we dont need categories with tags, unless categories is the main organization method and tags fine-tune it
21:32 benrob0329   IhrFussel: at least 16x16, though most subgame logos are 32x32 for the icons afaik
21:34 IhrFussel    So a server can only have 1 category and multiple tags? Or several categories + tags?
21:35 benrob0329   One category i'd assume
21:35 benrob0329   Main theme sort of thing
21:35 benrob0329   Maybe Roleplay should be a category
21:35 IhrFussel    Would make the most sense...else server owners could "abuse" it by defining all categories for the list which makes their server visible in every search
21:35 benrob0329   Since survival is a tag
21:36 benrob0329   Should Building be a tag or a category?
21:36 benrob0329   Creative is already a tag
21:37 IhrFussel    I don't know of any survival server where building isn't part of it
21:37 benrob0329   But as the main theme
21:38 benrob0329   Perhaps not
21:38 benrob0329   Building may be too generic
21:38 IhrFussel    Building is important in every server type (except pure PvP maybe)
21:38 benrob0329   Technical, Devices, Electrics
21:39 benrob0329   Probably Technical
21:39 benrob0329   Which would include Mesecons and Technic oriented servers
21:39 benrob0329   (And pipeworks)
21:40 benrob0329   Basically VE's servers
21:41 IhrFussel    It would also be nice to be able to search for servers with specific mod X like "#hasmod:blah"
21:41 RobbieF      have a nice weekend all
21:42 benrob0329   IhrFussel: thats probably too much
21:42 benrob0329   Bye RobbieF!
21:44 IhrFussel    Nahh..personally I think it's bad design if the user has to visit servers.minetest.net directly outside the game just to check the server's mods
21:44 benrob0329   IhrFussel: are mods even listed?
21:44 IhrFussel    Yes when you hover over the subgame name I think
21:44 benrob0329   Maybe a weblink for more information or  a forum article
21:45 benrob0329   Or a Long description
21:45 benrob0329   With basic formatting
21:46 IhrFussel    The website server list also displays average lag of the server...which is also missing from the ingame list
21:46 benrob0329   So we need average lag, mods, tags, and categories
21:48 IhrFussel    2 of those could be easily fetched from the main server list (or maybe they are already fetched and the engine just cuts ping, server type, player count and server name out)
21:49 IhrFussel    I mean server flags not server type*
21:50 IhrFussel    Uptime/average player count/max player count is not important ingame ... but mods and average lag are (usually also ping but the one from the master list is useless)
21:53 IhrFussel    The PR by sofar was heavily disliked at first by the way because we thought m_lag uses the max_lag in /status ... and it turned out to be NOT that value but an actual average instead
21:55 IhrFussel    I would be fine with that avg lag value replacing the ingame ping bar
21:57 IhrFussel    I think the ping only really matters in PvP battles... the average lag of a server matters in every game type, it affects *every* player at the same time and can have a major impact on the gameplay experience
22:00 IhrFussel    And I say that as someone whose server sometimes even struggles with the load cause of extreme I/O wait ... but I find it fair to show the user in the ingame server list which servers will give the player likely a good "fluent" gameplay
22:03 * twoelk     silently points at not really satisfying game typ and genre classification attempts on https://wiki.minetest.net/List_of_Subgames
22:05 sofar        someone add Inside The Box to that list plz ;)
22:06 Jordach      >tfw solar plains isn't listed
22:06 Jordach      but that's fine
22:07 sofar        speaking of, do you want to use my remote media server for it, Jordach?
22:07 Jordach      sofar, enjoy the most recent update inboun
22:07 Jordach      you'd want to script it weekly or even per 48 hours
22:07 sofar        git url to your repo?
22:08 Jordach      https://github.com/Jordach/Solar_Plains
22:09 benrob0329   sofar: does it generate the media from the server or from a git link?
22:09 sofar        git
22:09 sofar        there's really no need to get it from the server
22:10 sofar        that's just extra resources and annoyance
22:10 sofar        Jordach: go ahead and point your server conf to my remote media server, it's setup
22:10 * sofar      grabs power cord to prevent dead battery
22:10 Jordach      Intel: Delidding Inside
22:12 sofar        2011 thinkpad that's lasted me through 5 OSs on a single partition from start to end
22:16 Jordach      2017-12-08 22:15:12: ERROR[Main]: Irrlicht: Could not load mesh, file format seems to be unsupported: mesh.obj
22:16 Jordach      that's a full size CTD
22:17 sofar        ?
22:18 twoelk       there is a "inside the box" subgame available? - I thought it wasn't released yet
22:18 rubenwardy   nope
22:18 rubenwardy   sofar's subgame shouldn't be on that list
22:18 rubenwardy   as it's just a server
22:18 twoelk       so I thought
22:19 twoelk       classifying it might be a challange though
22:20 twoelk       probably rehash type and puzzle genre :P
22:22 sofar        "horrible ripoff"
22:22 sofar        "uncreative plagiarism"
22:23 sofar        it's just too difficult for you :P
22:23 twoelk       we got "themed" for that :D
22:23 rubenwardy   "add mobs pls"
22:24 * Jordach    keks
22:27 benrob0329   "Add End plz"
22:27 Jordach      add mineplex pls
22:28 Sokomine     IhrFussel: that "family and children" are much frowned upon here. some people behave very odd there. they play babies for whatever reason. either they're desperate for any attention at all or there are other motivations involved. i would hesistate to mix that with regular roleplay (which might also vary between loosely playing a character and very strict roleplay where ooc would be frowned upon)
22:28 Sokomine     if that "family roleplay" gets a tag, no server would set that. it'd make players run away screaming...
22:28 benrob0329   Sokomine: exactly
22:29 Sokomine     IhrFussel: abuse through server owners is less of a problem. the server doesn't really gain anything if it does not attract suitable players
22:29 benrob0329   *cough*hometown*cough*
22:29 IhrFussel    Sokomine, my server uses an own chat channel for RP ... I couldn't care less what type of RP players do there as long as the main channel doesn't have to read it
22:29 Sokomine     benrob0329: there's also building on survival servers (which i mostly do). creative doesn't cover it...
22:30 Sokomine     benrob0329: ve's servers are a builder's paradise (except that they have too much technic going on and thus are hard for my machine)
22:31 Jordach      Sokomine, i got plenty of amiga era textures sitting in my brand new game
22:31 shivajiva    IhrFussel: that sounds dangerous, ultimately you are responsible for the content you allow. Not monitoring it for dodgy behaviour would be a mistake
22:31 Sokomine     average lag is of not much help. mods are...to a degree. not all are relevant..but you might wish for some to be present
22:31 Jordach      Sokomine, try 0.5-dev and hit up jordach.net
22:33 Sokomine     twoelk: ah, good idea
22:33 IhrFussel    shivajiva, that is not true at least not in Germany... the German law says "as soon as the content provider realizes/recognizes the bad content they have to act" not before
22:35 IhrFussel    Also the different channels still get logged to the same file which I read daily ... no server owner can provide 100% security for minors at all times
22:35 benrob0329   Sokomine: but building is something almost every server has, its the whole point of the engine
22:35 IhrFussel    Or protection*
22:35 Sokomine     benrob0329: hm, yes, that's a mixed thing, hometown. shows that players attract players. and with enough players, things like building contests can be hold. and there is more likelyhood of good buildings beeing created by at least someone
22:36 benrob0329   A server not about building would be impressive imo
22:36 shivajiva    agreed, you made it sound like it was unmanaged :P
22:36 MinetestBot  paramat: Dec-05 15:17 UTC <Megaf> Hi, I just want you to be sure I'm not attacking or criticising you or anyone for that matter.
22:38 Sokomine     benrob0329: partly :-) there are games where it is less relevant. adventuretest, for example. or more extreme those whatever-wars-games. or inside the box. building there is kind of outside the box
22:39 Sokomine     adventure could also work largely without building something yourself. it's the very ability of the game to allow modifications of the world that makes it great. but there are still exceptions where gameplay does not focus on that
22:40 IhrFussel    Oh no no...my server gets heavily moderated...and players who did something bad *will* be punished 24 hours later max
22:40 Sokomine     or even servers like rnd's lab. yes, there was building, but...surviving against these hordes of mobs did take a huge toll and made building less important
22:40 IhrFussel    But chat channels are a way to distribute certain stuff better... non-RP users cannot be disturbed/annoyed by it then
22:41 benrob0329   Sokomine: so building should perhaps be a tag
22:41 benrob0329   If its not present building is probably not a main focus
22:42 Sokomine     if the focus lies on that - yes. this might involve providing players with suitable tools. i'd not really accept a server as building-orientated if there's no protection at all (though some servers might get away with whitelisting players)
22:42 Fixer        gamemode 0
22:43 Sokomine     Fixer: what's that?
22:43 IhrFussel    A command in Minecraft to change the game type
22:44 IhrFussel    You can change it on-the-fly there
22:44 Fixer        Sokomine: can see that command from time to time in minetest
22:44 Fixer        someone write pru(a)nk mod for those guys typing gamemode
22:45 IhrFussel    People who send it most likely think this is Minecraft and they want the server to be creative I think
22:45 Fixer        holy ----, that subgame list is ridiculously long
22:45 Fixer        is it even up to date?
22:45 Fixer        95% of it is probably dead
22:46 Fixer        https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=1564
22:46 Fixer        dead DL link
22:47 * Jordach    presses F to pay respects
22:49 Fixer        Minecraft 1.12 Vs Minetest, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7ioHazUq_s (95 105 views), WTH
22:49 benrob0329   I was going to do a cinematic of hometown, but I found the customer service there to be terrible
22:49 * benrob0329 hides
22:50 sofar        kek
22:50 Fixer        what "FA SCHIFO" means?
22:51 Fixer        "why do some love minetest? its a dumb ripoff"
22:53 Sokomine     benrob0329: it doesn't seem bad. the players are friendly. there are also many, and there's that undesirable rpg in chat. i've mostly done sightseeing, mining, and a little bit of building and was mostly distracted from reading the chat
22:53 Fixer        "Firstly minetest is not a ripoff but it is a free version of minecraft alpha and when minecraft was only alpha minetest was an amazing game."
22:53 Fixer        looool
22:54 Fixer        my feeling somewhat (overe-ed)
22:55 Fixer        MTG is like alpha Minecraft (but with more blocks)
22:55 Sokomine     Fixer: can't really tell. mc does not run on my machine. the old creative-only version did. and when i wanted more (modding the game) - mc just didn't work, and i found mt
22:55 Fixer        Sokomine: are you still on that old Pentium 4 machine with 1536 mb of ram :)?
22:55 benrob0329   MT is an engine to unify the Voxel games.
22:56 Fixer        i'm literally playing mc beta on videocard from 2005 and it runs very good
22:56 Fixer        40+ fps most of the time
22:56 Fixer        or even 60+
22:56 Sokomine     Fixer: no :) it's a nice celeron g1610 with igp. a celeron of the i3 branch - not an atom one
22:56 Fixer        Sokomine: the worst
22:57 Sokomine     not really. runs mt very fine most of the time
22:57 Sokomine     but couldn't get mc to run. that probably needs a dedicated graphics card
22:57 Fixer        btw, minetest_game is game, not subgame
22:58 benrob0329   Its funny though, people say MC is better at mods, and their right; you can do a lot by modifying the engine code :D
22:58 benrob0329   *they're
22:58 Fixer        mc mods are amazing :(
22:58 Fixer        but minetest has good mods too (kinda), good enough
22:58 Sokomine     i usually consider what mtg is to be a subgame. when speaking about the engine "game" might come to mind, but...usually they're too similar to be truely distinct games, all those..er..whatever-you-may-want-to-call-thems
22:59 Fixer        sub_ means based on something
22:59 paramat      MC mods can be more powerful but few can code them
22:59 Jordach      Sokomine, might be fixing that soon
22:59 Fixer        I would rather redo that list
22:59 Sokomine     based on mtg :)
22:59 * Sokomine   hides
22:59 Fixer        so you make different list: subgames of MTG, and actually different games, like Mineclone2, Sudoku, whatever
23:00 Jordach      Sokomine, https://jordach.net/images/yihjhbepsovzehfoei.png
23:00 Jordach      https://jordach.net/images/oerbdscluotosdhrjc.png
23:00 Fixer        paramat: not can, they are, coded in java though, but they damn good
23:00 Fixer        they are*
23:00 Jordach      a goal of SP might be to bring some of that sweet MC mod feel
23:01 benrob0329   Modifying engine source can give great results ;-)
23:01 Sokomine     Jordach: oh, nice! (and would be hard to chew for my machine)
23:01 * Sokomine   steals some snowflakes
23:01 Jordach      Sokomine, it's all nice and light
23:01 Jordach      i did all this by hand :)
23:01 Jordach      barring a few paramat and sofar contributions for weather
23:01 Sokomine     oh? :-)
23:01 Jordach      Sokomine, try jordach.net : 30000 with 0.5-dev
23:02 Jordach      wait a few seconds first
23:02 Sokomine     hm. maybe i ought to compile a recent 0.5-dev. i'm still on 0.4.16 so that i can join servers
23:02 Jordach      keep the old copy
23:02 Jordach      server is rebooting on it's self maintainence
23:02 Sokomine     yes. that mgiht be an option
23:03 Fixer        paramat: modders use that forge api thing, in early days it was direct code changing (mods i use in mc beta), copying stuff into main jar, overwriting those class files
23:04 Fixer        mc beta 1.7.3 really impressed me, it is very stable, even with basic mods, like minimap, better chat, better inv management, world downloader
23:05 Fixer        god-damn ATI users should install z-buffer fix (thanks to RBA for fixing that in Minetest)
23:05 paramat      ok, but since MC modding is applied to the engine, it's still more difficult right?
23:05 Jordach      paramat, forge now is a different fucking beast
23:05 Jordach      very similar to MT
23:05 Fixer        it is in java, probably more difficult
23:05 Jordach      but with java sillyness
23:05 Fixer        yeah
23:05 Fixer        lua is more friendly
23:05 paramat      MT ease of modding brought me here
23:06 Jordach      paramat, go give my server a try :)
23:06 Jordach      i've not even got close to finishing and it's got plenty of polish
23:07 benrob0329   Lua is amazing
23:07 paramat      nice, may well do sometime
23:07 Jordach      paramat, cross the bridge to the grassland area and check out the rain
23:07 benrob0329   Will probably order the book sometime
23:07 paramat      and i like your textures J
23:07 Jordach      paramat, it's not like an Amiga was used to make them or anything
23:08 Jordach      farming still needs to be re-textured still
23:14 Jordach      Sokomine, i think it shows how powerful your PC is considering i can run VE-survival on a phone without issues
23:14 Jordach      (almost at 45 fps too, at 1440p)
23:16 Jordach      those flagshp samsung phones have huge amounts of power
23:17 Jordach      fuck
23:17 Jordach      i broke beds
23:21 twoelk       Fixer: you did notice the list of subgames is sortable?
23:21 Fixer        yes
23:24 paramat      i think we should start calling them 'games' again, this 'subgame' thing is silly
23:24 Jordach      THIS
23:26 twoelk       there have been attempts at smaller more specific lists but the authors ussually dwindle away when they realize that some amount of work is needed to research the games and only few are dedicated enough to keep stuff up to date
23:27 * twoelk     shoves away some kittens hopping over the laptop
23:27 Fixer        Minetest Game is game, and anything based of it is its Subgame, Obvious
23:28 Fixer        Jordach: that samsung probably requires those big 12V car batteries
23:28 Jordach      Fixer, lmao noi
23:30 Fixer        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1312#issuecomment-350378684
23:40 * Sokomine   grabs a kitten and puts it in a sales machine
23:41 Sokomine     Jordach: hmpf! i'd love to get back to ve-survival. vanessas servers are the best :-) but there's usually so much automatic change at spawn that it's hard for me
23:41 Sokomine     Jordach: modern phones tend to have impressive graphics capabilities
23:42 Jordach      Sokomine, indeed, my Galaxy Note 8 can handle VE-Survival with the phat 6GB LDDR4
23:42 Sokomine     twoelk: i've once in the past tried to order mods by category. i gave up. there where too many even back then
23:43 twoelk       some of your pages have been expanded since :-)
23:45 Jordach      yissssss
23:45 Jordach      finally fixed the beds
23:45 Jordach      the send button officially works again
23:46 sofar        150 or so mods in minetest-mods
23:48 * Megaf      has joined the chat.
23:48 Jordach      question
23:48 Jordach      is burntime considered a recipe or as a items itemref
23:49 Megaf        Shara: ping
23:49 Megaf        Guys, what can we do to put us and devs in harmony again?
23:49 Jordach      smoke plenty of joins under the night sky around a campfire
23:50 Megaf        Are you following? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1312
23:50 Megaf        it's basically war
23:50 Megaf        it ilustrate very well things
23:50 twoelk       https://wiki.minetest.net/Mods:Nature, https://wiki.minetest.net/Mods:Vehicles and of course https://wiki.minetest.net/Mods:Mobs are pretty well mantained but the others could need more work </hint>
23:51 Megaf        now, vehicles is something that shoult totally run client side
23:51 Megaf        sent from the server of course
23:51 Megaf        the client would just report to the server where the vehicle is
23:52 Megaf        and mobs should be totally reimplemented
23:52 Megaf        we have sign texts and mobs, and server treat them as the same thing, an enitity
23:52 Megaf        and the same to UFOs and some particles
23:53 Megaf        all the same thing, and all wiped out in clear objects
23:53 Megaf        which is annoying for users trying to have a farm
23:53 Megaf        or people charging their UFOs
23:53 Sokomine     megaf: i havn't been following. but there ought to be no "war". that sounds very strange
23:53 Megaf        or Megafs making a habour in their spawn
23:53 Megaf        Sokomine: we are just out of sync
23:54 sofar        #minetest - compunerd is asking for an admin to help with his server
23:54 Megaf        not war, war is a misnomer for this. My mistake
23:54 Sokomine     Megaf: well, that was one of the resons for the very funding of this channel, wasn't it? to help devs, server owners, modders and other involved people to get in sync again
23:58 Megaf        I have absolutely no idea
23:58 paramat      'us and devs' are in reasonable harmony, but there are some big mistakes sometimes: sneak, CSM :) that thread only illustrated the sillyness of the author
23:58 paramat      *illustrates
23:59 benrob0329   Better copy+paste would be awesome
23:59 Megaf        [23:58:46] <paramat> 'us and devs' are in reasonable harmony, but there are some big mistakes sometimes: sneak, CSM :) that thread only illustrated the sillyness of the author
23:59 Megaf        +1
23:59 benrob0329   Clicking a link and having it copy would be nice too, as an extension of the previous