Time  Nick          Message
00:01 Megaf         aright
00:19 Megaf         I will be playing with Minetest Server on a Raspberry Pi 2 soon
00:19 Megaf         transferring the image to the sd card right now
00:21 Megaf         I wonder how long will it take to compile
00:22 Megaf         I need somebody to make a mod that benchmarks the server
00:22 Megaf         time to generate x blocks for example
00:22 Megaf         and benchmarks some operations in Lua too
00:22 * paramat     runs away
00:24 * Megaf       traps paramat
00:24 Megaf         you up for the job?
00:24 Megaf         :P
00:25 Fixer         try /emergeblocks benchmark
00:26 Fixer         Megaf: on forum I posted a thread with /emergeblock benchmark, try it
00:54 Roger9        yay
01:12 Megaf         pi@Blacknium:~ $ hostname -f
01:12 Megaf         Blacknium.Metal.Loca
01:12 Megaf         new hostname :)
01:12 Megaf         Local*
04:28 MinetestBot   Lupercus: Oct-09 19:47 UTC <Krock> How to block multicraft users: Switch to 0.5.0
06:17 sofar         or have ~30mb of hi res skybox textures and 10 3-minute music tracks
06:17 sofar         I get zero android clients on my server
07:31 FourFire      I'm getting this error: https://hastebin.com/equrulahox.tex The relevant line is the contents of this if statement: https://hastebin.com/xizoxufuda.lua
07:32 FourFire      How do I force the script to skip the lines between then & else ?
07:35 FourFire      I also tried if(not stone_xyz = "nil") then
07:36 FourFire      which yields init.lua:253: ')' expected near '='
07:39 FourFire      Ah I figured it out: if(not stone_xyz)
07:40 FourFire      No comparison needed
10:08 shivajiva     Anyone with write access to unified_inventory around to merge my pr? It's been 8 days since I made it
10:10 shivajiva     you'd think a pr that removes >900 core function calls on player login would be worth merging asap
10:11 shivajiva     or was it >400 calls...either way...
13:38 Megaf         Good morning
13:39 Mr_Pardison   Morning Megaf
13:44 Megaf         Greetings ThomasMonroe
13:47 shivajiva     Greetings Megaf
13:49 ThomasMonroe  hello Megaf, shivajiva
13:50 shivajiva     Hello ThomasM
13:51 Mr_Pardison   Greetings, shivajiva
13:52 shivajiva     Hi Mr_P, didn't mean to leave you out :)
13:53 Mr_Pardison   I'm used to being left out since I tend to be the quiet one.
13:53 Mr_Pardison   Just silently observing and seeing what goes on.
13:53 Megaf         Hah
13:53 shivajiva     being a voyeur is okay
13:54 shivajiva     as you can see not much going on atm
13:54 ThomasMonroe  hiya Mr_Pardison
13:55 Mr_Pardison   Hello ThomasMonroe
13:56 shivajiva     I see Russia have a missing satellite, they seem to have put it in the wrong orbit...
14:13 IhrFussel     minetest.rotate_and_place doesn't take the item from the stack if you place it on a pedestal ... now I replaced "on_place = minetest.rotate_and_place" with "after_place_node = function...... itemstack:take_item() return itemstack end" but I'd like to still rotate and place after I made sure that the item was taken from the stack
14:27 IhrFussel     after_place_node = function(pos, placer, itemstack, pointed_thing) itemstack:take_item() minetest.rotate_and_place() return itemstack end << error "pointed_thing is nil"
14:29 Megaf         shivajiva: did you see they intercepted an American plane yesterday?
14:30 Megaf         https://www.stripes.com/news/russian-jet-performs-unsafe-intercept-of-us-navy-plane-1.499761
14:30 * Mr_Pardison goes back to being overwatch and talking about jousting
14:37 shivajiva     Hi RobbieF
14:38 RobbieF       shivajiva!! How are ya?
14:38 shivajiva     it's not unusual Megaf the UK regularly intercepts Russian planes flying in our airspace
14:38 shivajiva     Good thanks, hbu?
14:38 Megaf         shivajiva: I know :)
14:39 Megaf         I wonder what would happen if the USA decided to send some F-22 to fly close to Russia... I want to see them intercept that
14:40 shivajiva     you know the Russians would try and shoot it down with SAMs
14:40 Mr_Pardison   something would probably go badly for one side.
14:41 Megaf         Only if the raptors got too close
14:41 Megaf         they are not invisible but they are much harder to detect
14:41 shivajiva     have you seen the Klub series, all nicely packed in a container, doors open and the roof jacks and they are ready to launch
14:41 Mr_Pardison   they could but depending on how the SAM's track there target, they could be evaded or fooled.
14:42 shivajiva     kinda reminds me of Walmart and what they seem to be doing in the States with 124 of their stores
14:43 shivajiva     looks like Walmart = FEMA
14:44 Megaf         Changing topics. Since I decided to not use HHVM again and use Apache + PHP7 I could reduce the RAM size from almost 1 GB on my web server to 128 MB
14:44 RobbieF       I'm doing very well thanks. Big things happening on Minetest.TV too so it's an exciting time!
14:45 shivajiva     in fact they released a public information clip suggesting you report any thing suspicious to your local Walmart manager
14:45 Mr_Pardison   like a fire in the store?
14:46 shivajiva     Cool Robbie, what specifically is happening?
14:46 shivajiva     no like you think the guy across the road is a terrorist
14:47 shivajiva     it seems so natural to report terrorism to the local Walmart manager doesn't it :)
14:48 Mr_Pardison   in this crazy world we live in, what is natural?
14:51 shivajiva     certainly not the evidence to suggest we live on a heavily quarried planet that pre-dates our history
14:52 shivajiva     nor the trinitite found in India that is 5000 years old
14:53 Jordach       RobbieF, Shara https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=301685#p301685
14:53 Jordach       i am literally hot shit
14:54 * shivajiva   hesitates and clicks
14:55 Jordach       i can generate players hands on automated server restarts
14:55 benrob0329    Jordach: only for about 5 minutes though :P
14:55 Jordach       until they change their appearance
14:56 Jordach       computing 24bits of HEX RGBA isn't a fun ideal for item registry
14:56 benrob0329    No, you only "hot shit" on the forums for about 5 minutes
14:56 * Jordach     drops a mixtape
14:56 benrob0329    Then someone else posts :P
14:56 Jordach       the system was working
14:56 Jordach       just not the system that gives out the hands
14:56 Jordach       https://i.imgur.com/HZKuPa8.jpg
14:57 Jordach       it was this little shit
14:57 Jordach       https://gist.github.com/Jordach/ec18696a5664923e1b6fea0bd5097255
14:57 Jordach       then i realised
14:57 Jordach       a break statement would have solved it
14:57 Jordach       (or moving the _default_ before the loop)
15:00 Jordach       https://i.imgur.com/oSLdnjn.jpg
15:10 RobbieF       shivajiva I'm working on a new user system that lets people sign up for a free account and skin their character, follow other players, etc.
15:11 RobbieF       as you know we have a very advanced skinning system
15:11 RobbieF       so we're taking it to the next level with a built-in skin editor, ability to switch skins, etc.
15:12 RobbieF       and there's a mod servers can use to connect their players to their skins
15:12 Jordach       RobbieF, >built in skin editor
15:12 Jordach       been there done that
15:12 Jordach       :^)
15:13 RobbieF       not in-game Jordach
15:13 Jordach       hehe
15:18 jas_          /give RobbieF dresser:skin_item_sam
15:18 jas_          i like the clothing mod, you use that right?
15:18 RobbieF       I do not.
15:18 jas_          oh i see
15:19 RobbieF       We use multiskin
15:19 jas_          clothing requires multiskin
15:19 jas_          (afaik)
15:19 RobbieF       though the creative server supports clothing
15:19 jas_          i dunno how that mod works, multiskin, but am very glad that it does!
15:19 RobbieF       but that is unrelated to our skin API
15:19 jas_          i use craftitems as skins you must have in your inventory
15:19 jas_          and you put then in a dresser node
15:19 jas_          it's super weird
15:20 jas_          but i just like holding a little sam
15:21 CBugDCoder    RobbieF so would it be possible to use your skin database on tre's and my server Legends Of Survival?
15:24 RobbieF       CBugDCoder - yes.
15:25 CBugDCoder    ok :) cause i am getting swamped with skin requests and it would be nice to have it so the players can add their own skins
15:26 RobbieF       oh sure... email me contact@category5.tv and I'll try to notify you when it's ready for other servers.
15:26 RobbieF       we've been using it on multiple servers here and it's great
15:27 CBugDCoder    kk ill have tre do that since i dont have an email yet XD
15:28 RobbieF       heh
15:28 RobbieF       what is this, 1988?
15:28 RobbieF       ;)
15:29 ThomasMonroe  nah we don't even have cell-phones yet XD
15:29 CBugDCoder    nope its 1634 XD
15:29 RobbieF       Time to build the railroad!
15:29 ThomasMonroe  also RobbieF I'm almost always here unless I am having net probs, so you could contact me via memoserv
15:30 RobbieF       Thanks. But I'm more asking for the email because [haha] I know I'll forget.
15:30 ThomasMonroe  ah ok lol got it
15:31 ThomasMonroe  i don't check my e-mail that often though
15:38 RobbieF       alright, well you guys know where to find me  :)
15:38 CBugDCoder    will the skin switching be in-game of on the site?
15:38 RobbieF       The new back-end will be up on our web site as well
15:38 RobbieF       CBugDCoder, through the web site, much more like Minecraft.
15:38 CBugDCoder    ok
15:39 RobbieF       however our system will support *multiple* skins per player, so they can change skins at will.
15:39 CBugDCoder    ok ittle just require a server restart to apply or will it just need to restart to add new skins?
15:42 RobbieF       no, you don't need to restart.
15:42 CBugDCoder    ok then how would the new textures be sent to the clients?
15:43 RobbieF       working that out CBugDCoder - still developing it.
15:43 CBugDCoder    ok
15:50 CBugDCoder    thx for developing the mod our server avrages 25 players on at a time and i cant keep up with the skin requests XD
15:50 RobbieF       yeah that'd be brutal
15:51 RobbieF       our servers are all automatic for skins... players upload their own
15:51 RobbieF       so I'll simply be opening that up for other server admins, and also giving the players a built-in editor
15:52 Megaf         CBugDCoder: Hm, who are you?
15:52 Megaf         Hi RobbieF jas_
15:52 CBugDCoder    CalebDavis :)
15:52 jas_          hi
15:52 Megaf         Oh, Hi Caleb :)
15:53 Megaf         I'm feeling fat
15:53 Megaf         Tigers can't be fat
15:56 Megaf         Eating peanut butter straight out of the jar, with a spoon
15:56 Mr_Pardison   just my style.
15:56 Mr_Pardison   except for when I have apples in which case I might pair them depending on what type it is.
15:56 Megaf         So I'm not the only insane who does that
15:57 Mr_Pardison   I'm not crazy!
15:57 Mr_Pardison   My mother had me tested.
15:57 Mr_Pardison   XD
15:57 CBugDCoder    i love eating peanut butter straight out of the jar :)
15:57 Megaf         Cool
15:58 Megaf         Thanks folks :P
15:58 Megaf         I feel better now
15:58 Megaf         You prefer the crunchy one or the smooth?
15:58 Mr_Pardison   smooth.
15:58 CBugDCoder    both
15:58 Mr_Pardison   Jif brand.
15:58 CBugDCoder    depends on how i feel
15:58 CBugDCoder    and i do Jif too
15:58 Mr_Pardison   I'll settle for Skippy if it's cheaper.
15:59 Megaf         I eat Tescos, Tesco peanut butter is supper cheap and delicious. And I prefer the crunchy one
16:00 CBugDCoder    i have Jif cause my dad wont have any other brand it is one of the few things he is picky about XD
16:00 Megaf         Hah
16:01 Megaf         -bash: bin/minetestserver: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error
16:01 Megaf         Oh well
16:02 Megaf         I guess that's what you get when you try to run amd64 binary on an ARMv7 board
16:02 * Mr_Pardison hands Megaf an arm
16:02 Mr_Pardison   that might help.
16:02 Megaf         hah
16:28 IhrFussel     Does anyone have an idea on how to take an item from the stack on_place PLUS use minetest.rotate_and_place on that node after?
16:29 Mr_Pardison   as in the node rotates after being placed?
16:30 IhrFussel     Yes ... I'm modifying a node that could be exploited on peestals (itemframes mod) because minetest.rotate_and_place() doesn't seem to take from the stack when used with pedestals
16:30 IhrFussel     pedestals*
16:30 Mr_Pardison   I've seen that tree trunks when placed sometimes rotate for some reason.
16:31 Mr_Pardison   I think it might be due to where the player is relative to the node.
16:31 IhrFussel     The original line in the definition was on_place = minetest.rotate_and_place which works fine when placed by a player BUT on pedestals the stack doesn't reduce meaning unlimited items
16:31 Mr_Pardison   I got nothing on that front.
16:33 IhrFussel     My "bugfix" for now is replacing on_place with after_place_node() and I put itemstack:take_item() return itemstack end which works fine now EXCEPT the node doesn't rotate and place anymore
16:33 Mr_Pardison   have you tired limiting the number of items that can be placed on the pedestal?
16:33 IhrFussel     Calling minetest.rotate_and_place inside after_place_node causes a crash "pointed_thing nil value"
16:34 Mr_Pardison   based on that crash error, I would think that you would need to assign it a value.
16:34 Mr_Pardison   not completely sure tho since I've barely started to dive in to lua
16:34 IhrFussel     I think minetest.rotate_and_place is only designed for the on_place callback which transfers the parameters in a different order I think
16:37 IhrFussel     The problem isn't the pedestals since all other node types work as expected with no exploit... the problematic nodes are also the only ones that use minetest.rotate_and_place so that's definitely the source of the problem
16:53 Megaf         Don't you hate when you set your flags in ./configure AND as a variable in make yet the compiler ignores it?
16:53 Megaf         minetest@Blacknium:/dev/shm/SQLITE_BUILD $ time make CXX_FLAGS="-march=native -mfpmath=both -Ofast -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -funroll-loops" C_FLAGS="-march=native -mfpmath=both -Ofast -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -funroll-loops" -j 4
16:53 Megaf         gcc  -g -O2 -o mksourceid /dev/shm/sqlite/tool/mksourceid.c
16:53 Megaf         gcc  -g -O2 -o lemon /dev/shm/sqlite/tool/lemon.c
16:54 Megaf         sfan5: ideias why is that happening? ^
16:54 Megaf         It seems to have gotten other flags right though, it's just not using the -Ofast
16:55 sofar         sqlite makefile just hardcodes it I think
16:56 Megaf         well, there's not a huge performance gain in Ofast from O2 I think
16:56 sofar         you'd have to test it
16:56 sofar         we patch the heck out of it in clearlinux
16:56 Megaf         According to my tests I got a nice performance gain from other flags, make specific flags
16:56 sofar         so there's significant gains to be had
16:57 Megaf         I mean, sqlite specific
16:57 Megaf         like disabling threadsafe
16:57 sofar         https://github.com/clearlinux-pkgs/sqlite-autoconf
16:57 Megaf         -DSQLITE_THREADSAFE=0 <- nice performance gain from here
16:57 Megaf         sofar: by we you mean yourself included?
16:58 sofar         "we" as in "the Intel ClearLinux team"
16:59 Megaf         I could join the project (Can't already imagine solar reaction if I do)
17:00 sofar         I'm sure we have a few job openings atm
17:00 sofar         we usually do
17:00 sofar         "solar"?
17:00 * Mr_Pardison posts a "now hiring, apply within" sign
17:00 Megaf         sofar*
17:00 Mr_Pardison   also, welcome to RC's irc sofar.
17:00 Megaf         High Sierra auto correct...
17:00 sofar         ah, lol
17:01 Megaf         sofar, I could do with a job.
17:02 sofar         intel.com/jobs
17:02 sofar         (seriously, that's the best way to start)
17:02 * Mr_Pardison makes a note of this
17:02 Megaf         sofar: even if I'm not the biggest intel fan?
17:03 sofar         critical employees are vital for tech companies
17:03 sofar         (critical ~= fanboyism)
17:06 Megaf         sofar, I really don't see Intel hiring me :P I'm quite confident of my skill, I just thing they are not interested
17:07 Mr_Pardison   well, I must depart for now.
17:07 Megaf         nobody care for a nerd who is very good in finding bugs and is driven by perfection
17:07 Mr_Pardison   I will c y'all in a bit.
17:07 Megaf         cya Mr_Pardison
17:07 sofar         megaf: what the actual BLEEP
17:07 Mr_Pardison   Megaf: same here! I like to find bugs and stuff.
17:07 Mr_Pardison   but the perfection part not so much.
17:07 sofar         do you know how many people around me have that exact same attitude?
17:07 Mr_Pardison   k now I'm out.
17:08 sofar         literally, everyone
17:08 Megaf         sofar, yep. But I can't code
17:08 sofar         we all pretend
17:08 sofar         most of the time, anyway
17:08 shivajiva     :)
17:08 Megaf         I'm just a bridge, a link, between design, develop and user
17:09 Megaf         See? I'm a Minetest player myself, admin a server, and now and then send PRs and report bugs.
17:09 sofar         any tech company will hire you
17:09 Megaf         sofar, I have been in the market for the last 4 years. Still unemployed.
17:09 sofar         can you spell "steps to reproduce" ?
17:09 Megaf         I don't believe in the tech industry anymore
17:10 sofar         you don't have to
17:10 benrob0329    "I dont complain, I professionally complain"
17:10 Megaf         Linux is part of my life sine 2003, when I transitioned from Windows Server 2003.
17:10 Megaf         Always trying to squeeze the max performance from the hardware and software I can
17:10 Megaf         well
17:10 Megaf         I don't really say these things in my CV
17:10 Megaf         maybe I should
17:12 sofar         well, this offer stands for everyone: if you want me to review and help improve a resume, send it to me
17:12 sofar         at: auke-jan.h.kok@intel.com
17:13 * Megaf       see someone is actually hunting for new talents
17:15 Megaf         sofar: Thank you. Will be reaching you this week
17:17 * shivajiva   is impressed
17:18 Megaf         Now, back to Minetest development. Anyone has any idea how can we do this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1643
17:19 * Mr_Pardison goes back to gaming
17:20 Megaf         rubenwardy: I will further investigate the server time clock and dedicated server step when minetestserver finishes building here. I'm making a local copy of it.
17:20 Megaf         ( https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2408#issuecomment-232384313 )
17:25 Fixer         Megaf: no wonder, shittons of IT people arrived into Ireland and saturated its market to no avail
17:26 Megaf         Plenty of jobs for coders though
17:27 Fixer         go into coding
17:27 Fixer         if you like it ofc
17:30 Megaf         Fixer: I have ADHD, very real and serious case of it. For me coding can be extremely taxing because of that
17:30 Megaf         Coding and maths
17:31 Megaf         hm
17:31 Megaf         cmake is failing to identify the compilers in Raspbian
17:31 Megaf         weird
17:32 Megaf         I just built SQLite and LuaJIT, I promise the compilers are just fine
17:32 Megaf         -- The C compiler identification is unknown
17:32 Megaf         -- The CXX compiler identification is unknown
17:32 Megaf         -- Check for working C compiler: /usr/bin/cc
17:32 Megaf         -- Check for working C compiler: /usr/bin/cc -- broken
17:32 Megaf         CMake Error at /usr/share/cmake-3.7/Modules/CMakeTestCCompiler.cmake:51 (message):
17:32 Megaf         The C compiler "/usr/bin/cc" is not able to compile a simple test program.
17:32 Megaf         oops, sorry for flood, pressed the wrong button.
17:32 Megaf         but there you have it
17:33 Megaf         Im doing CC=/usr/bin/gcc-6 CXX=/usr/bin/cpp-6 cmake
17:33 sofar         c++6
17:33 sofar         not cpp6?
17:34 sofar         err c++-6 instead of cpp-6
17:34 sofar         cpp != c++
17:34 Megaf         anyway, it's failing with cc
17:34 sofar         but, there are better ways of calling a different cc
17:35 Megaf         make is just completely ignoring CC=/usr/bin/gcc CPP=/usr/bin/c++
17:35 Megaf         as is searing /usr/bin/cc
17:37 Megaf         well, cc ultimately links to gcc anyway, so it should work
17:37 Megaf         minetest@Blacknium:/run/shm/BuildMegafServer $ cc --version
17:37 Megaf         cc (Raspbian 6.3.0-18+rpi1) 6.3.0 20170516
17:38 Megaf         make used to take environment variables to get the compiler binary, don't know why it isn't working anymore
17:40 Megaf         editing CmakeCache and setting compiler that doesn't work either.
17:40 Megaf         -- Check for working C compiler: /usr/bin/clang -- broken
17:41 Megaf         (cmake actually is taking and using environment variables, as long as CMakeCache is not present)
17:41 Megaf         but it still can't use the compilers
17:42 Megaf         Problem solved.
17:42 Megaf         gcc: error: unrecognized command line option ‘-mfpmath=both’
17:43 Megaf         I compiled LuaJIT and SQLite with that flag, but for some reason it doesn't work in Minetest
17:45 IhrFussel     Someone joins your server and calls themselves "Beta tester" ... then complains about lag
17:47 Krock         Why aren't you a beta tester too? Like we all in here are and we target to the best performance.
17:51 Mr_Pardison   lol
17:51 Mr_Pardison   to the name.
17:51 IhrFussel     I just find it a bit *rude* to complain about (minimal) lag on a content rich server ... of course some trade-offs have to be made with so many features
17:51 Mr_Pardison   also, greetings Krock
17:52 IhrFussel     Some people probaby compare MT server performance to Minecraft's
17:52 Mr_Pardison   if they do, then they are doing something wrong.
17:53 IhrFussel     I cannot even optimize my server more...there is a limitation (IO wait) and there's no way around it right now... I can just try to tune the conf settings to an extent
17:53 Krock         hi Mr_Pardison. What name?
17:53 * Krock       checks logs
17:54 IhrFussel     Oh his name wasn't "Beta_Tester" he just said in the chat "Hi I'm a server Beta Tester"
17:55 Megaf         Place your bets on how long will it take for my Raspberry 2 with 4 ARMv7 cores running at 1 GHz to build minutest server
17:55 Mr_Pardison   what IhrFussel said about a player joining and calling themselves "beta tester".
17:56 IhrFussel     Mr_Pardison, his account wasn't "Beta_Tester" but nonetheless he made me feel like he was calling me a "bad admin"
17:57 Mr_Pardison   how can one be a bad admin fi they attend to there server and make sure things run nicely?
17:57 Mr_Pardison   *if
17:57 IhrFussel     Well a few smaller lags apparently make him think that the admin has no idea of running a server
17:58 sofar         publishing data and monitoring it are ways to handle criticism
17:58 sofar         if you're open about it, you get a more positive response
17:59 IhrFussel     I have no access to a faster medium either...no SSD or something like that, my hoster doesn't offer that for the "low" price I pay
17:59 rubenwardy    how do you actually monitor lag? You can be matching the dedicated_server_step, and still have issues
17:59 rubenwardy    really you want to see the network send/receive, and compare it to limits
17:59 rubenwardy    heh
17:59 sofar         hence: https://minetest.foo-projects.org/status.html
17:59 Megaf         rubenwardy: /status see max lag and other things there
18:00 sofar         we should do some work to monitor client udp rtt as well
18:00 rubenwardy    max_lag is helpful to see blocking actions
18:00 IhrFussel     max_lag is a bad indicator...max_lag right now shows 3.5 but my own /lag command shows me avg lag is 0.165 secs so not too bad
18:00 rubenwardy    s/actions/lua scripts/g
18:00 Megaf         we have /lag?
18:00 sofar         he does
18:00 Megaf         IhrFussel: Send PR for that :)
18:00 sofar         there are many ways to measure responsiveness
18:01 Megaf         Time to build minetestserver on my Raspberry Pi 2 = real    17m6.043s
18:01 IhrFussel     I linked my avg_lag mod here a few weeks ago...one sec maybe I still got the zip
18:02 IhrFussel     http://ihrfussels-server.tk/lagmod.tar.gz should be it
18:02 Megaf         Will eat something, cya
18:05 rubenwardy    jeez, indentation would be good :D
18:05 IhrFussel     max_lag 4.6 /lag only shows 1 critical tick (1+ secs) which means the max_lag was caused by map_save_interval
18:06 IhrFussel     Which only runs once per minute right now ... rubenwardy I do my codding in nano, indentation isn't really doable there
18:07 IhrFussel     coding*
18:07 rubenwardy    lol
18:07 rubenwardy    wow
18:07 sofar         m_lag/max_lag is pretty brutal about spikes, yes
18:07 sofar         but considering everyone uses it as a measure, it's not necessarily unfair
18:07 IhrFussel     Yes one spike for several minutes is enough to make players think the server is a lag fest
18:08 rubenwardy    IhrFussel, you do an average in that
18:08 rubenwardy    whereas max_lag looks for the biggest server step essentially
18:08 rubenwardy    with some gradual settingly down (x0.8 per something?)
18:08 sofar         IhrFussel: only fair thing to do would be to change the value for everyone, not just for your server
18:09 IhrFussel     I know but the highest step could have been quite a few minutes ago and still is a bit high then while /lag already shows 0 critical lags again
18:09 sofar         we should rather add avg_lag and min_lag?
18:09 sofar         again, more data is more sense
18:10 IhrFussel     I already suggested something like avg lag to be added...not sure what happened with that issue or if I ever created one...maybe I just discussed it here
18:13 IhrFussel     I think that's what a few people suggested in the "replace ping with m_lag" PR ... a way to measure the actual avg lag
18:13 sofar         we should *add* it rather than replacing the max_lag
18:13 IhrFussel     Which m_lag basically is by the way... it is not max_lag I think cause it shows values between 150-200 for my server
18:16 sofar         add min_lag while we're at it
18:17 rubenwardy    you could just avoid long freezes by splitting up work across steps/ticks
18:19 IhrFussel     Can the server only save 1 mapblock per step by the way?
18:20 IhrFussel     Cause I get the feeling lower step interval = more DB access ... maybe I'm wrong though
18:24 IhrFussel     I only know that sending mapblocks/updating them client-side is tied to the server steps
18:24 sofar         1 mapblock save would be difficult
18:24 sofar         but I'm sure you could limit it to some reasonable number
18:25 sofar         more db access means smaller work chunks means less lag spikes
18:25 sofar         set it to 0.1
18:25 sofar         then see what happens
18:25 sofar         probably high IO, but lower lag spikes
18:25 Fixer         max_lag is server lag over big period of time, pep0l want more instanteneous measurement of lag
18:25 sofar         people don't want lag
18:26 sofar         it's all irrelevant, anyway
18:26 sofar         the only thing that matters is how you rank amongst fairly measured peers
18:26 Fixer         max_lag can say 10, but in this very moment it can be 0.00000000000001
18:26 Fixer         nevermind
18:26 sofar         that's why ranking is better than raw data, for players
18:27 IhrFussel     sofar, but isn't high IO wait what's causing the lags? I'm pretty sure it is
18:27 sofar         you'd see more writes total
18:27 sofar         but only smaller amounts per interval
18:27 IhrFussel     When my server lags for a few secs I see IO wait for Emerge-0 at 50-80%
18:27 sofar         honestly, try setting it to some ridiculously small value and run it like that for a few hours
18:28 sofar         sub-0.5 or so
18:28 sofar         my bet is that it will improve the enormous spikes a lot
18:28 IhrFussel     Well...I could try that, nothing to lose
18:28 sofar         at the cost of some other value somewhere else
18:28 sofar         at least the data will be useful
18:29 IhrFussel     And map_save_interval?
18:29 sofar         yes
18:29 sofar         same
18:29 rubenwardy    sorry if any core devs got any notifications, was just playing with https://github.com/blog/2471-introducing-team-discussions
18:30 rubenwardy    it's a good place to talk about any bad security issues or our nefarious plans of ruining the game
18:31 sofar         ah, nice
18:31 rubenwardy    direct link: https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/team-minetest/discussions
18:31 sofar         so let's talk about the unrestricted CSM stuff there
18:31 rubenwardy    oh yeah
18:31 rubenwardy    minetest.run_shell_command
18:31 Krock         tested the reply function just now. seems to work
18:31 rubenwardy    minetest.get_root_on_host
18:32 sofar         I was thinking minetest.send_player_credentials() and minetest.desktop_screenshot()
18:32 sofar         minetest.send_key_strokes()
18:32 IhrFussel     minetest.enable_webcam() ;)
18:33 rubenwardy    should totally add webcam support
18:33 sofar         sexual harassment is kind of out of fashion
18:33 rubenwardy    require players to send a photo of their ID and debit card to get a centralised account
18:33 Krock         IhrFussel, no need to. defaults to enabled and recording to public stream ofc
18:34 sofar         true, everyone live streams anyway
18:34 sofar         cptunderpants
18:34 rubenwardy    implement face recognition on login, will allow players to share their password without worry
18:35 Calinou       `minetest.desktop_screenshot()`
18:35 Calinou       like PunkBuster? :D
18:35 Calinou       PunkBuster*
18:36 Calinou       (it has a "screenshot to admin" functionaity)
18:36 rubenwardy    that should be an engine feature
18:36 rubenwardy    stop pushing features to mods, god damn it
18:36 rubenwardy    good for checking for cheating
18:40 Fixer         "stop pushing features to mods, god damn it" +1
18:40 Mr_Pardison   missed a lot while at lunch.
18:40 Mr_Pardison   meh.
18:40 rubenwardy    Fixer, I was actually being satirical :D
18:41 Megaf         Imagine going to college in one of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhnjMdzGusc
18:41 Fixer         rubenwardy: stop being satirical, MTG needs features NOW
18:41 rubenwardy    Fixer, MTG is a set of mods
18:41 Fixer         yeah
18:41 rubenwardy    I'd like to see more features in it
18:41 Fixer         Merge MOAR
18:41 IhrFussel     But is that the actual general opinion of core devs? "engine doesn't need those features, mods can implement them"
18:41 rubenwardy    well, I can say that crafting may be easier in 0.5.0
18:41 rubenwardy    <_<
18:41 rubenwardy    >_>
18:42 Mr_Pardison   >.<
18:42 Mr_Pardison   easier crafting?
18:42 rubenwardy    ^_^
18:42 * Mr_Pardison likes a challenge
18:42 rubenwardy    https://github.com/minetest-mods/craftguide/commit/64a711530f4503644b08ce98f920dbe5eccba743
18:43 * Megaf       wishes new features were not added while old features still broken and slow
18:43 rubenwardy    Megaf, Minetest does have a lot of technical debt
18:43 Mr_Pardison   fix them then add in broken ones.
18:43 rubenwardy    but MTG less so
18:43 rubenwardy    as there's very little in it
18:44 Fixer         MERGE ALL THE THINGS / starts vaporwave
18:44 rubenwardy    alright proller
18:44 IhrFussel     I'm pretty sure I have at least 10 mods installed that wouldn't need to be if the engine supported it (plus it would be way faster) like auto item collecting, wieldview, actibity tracking
18:44 sofar         blocking features and keeping the code hostage is a certain way to kill MT
18:44 rubenwardy    / thexyz
18:44 rubenwardy    lol
18:44 IhrFussel     activity*
18:45 rubenwardy    r/crazyideas: require core devs to make 3 bug fixes before merging a feature of their own
18:45 Mr_Pardison   not crazy.
18:45 Mr_Pardison   IMO rather smart.
18:45 sofar         you sound like a republican
18:45 Mr_Pardison   forces them to fix them before they add in something smart.
18:45 sofar         I mean
18:45 Mr_Pardison   *something. smart
18:45 sofar         LITERALLY you sound like one particular one
18:45 Mr_Pardison   to whom are you speaking?
18:46 rubenwardy    ^
18:46 sofar         http://www.dailywire.com/news/18844/great-trump-promised-cut-2-regulations-every-new-james-barrett
18:46 Krock         it's yuge
18:46 Fixer         wall
18:46 Mr_Pardison   no way m8.
18:46 rubenwardy    BUILD A WALL
18:46 sofar         the problem is that it sounds appealing
18:46 rubenwardy    sheet, my cover has been blown
18:47 Fixer         sheet?
18:47 sofar         but reality is that hostage taking == hostage taking
18:47 Mr_Pardison   I'm analytical and I can actually look at what I've done and see where I have gone wrong and attempt to fix those or not commit that error in the future.
18:47 rubenwardy    the equivalent of that would be cutting 2 feature for every new one
18:47 sofar         it's still hostage taking
18:48 sofar         I don't negotiate with terrorists :)
18:48 rubenwardy    \o/
18:48 Mr_Pardison   neither does the US government.
18:49 sofar         well, nothing wrong with getting people to fix bug
18:49 sofar         s
18:50 sofar         but you will get better results with a different way of motivating developers
18:50 rubenwardy    give core devs 10 up votes a month
18:50 rubenwardy    give 2 more for every bug fix
18:50 Calinou       wow, Minetest politics
18:50 Mr_Pardison   carrot before using the stick?
18:50 rubenwardy    and for $5 you can get 50
18:50 Mr_Pardison   o/ Calinou
18:50 Calinou       hi
18:50 rubenwardy    (I hope people realise I'm joking)
18:51 sofar         I would seriously consider spending a lot of time fixing engine bugs if there was a monetary reward of significance
18:52 rubenwardy    so would most people
18:52 sofar         500$ for a significant bug... hell yeah
18:52 * Megaf       gives sofar 10 cents
18:52 rubenwardy    problem is there's no money in MT
18:52 sofar         the thing is, for 10c, I'm gonna stay coding on what I find enjoyable
18:52 rubenwardy    (also a bonus)
18:52 Megaf         that could be as high as 2000 USD if I had a high paying job
18:52 Mr_Pardison   quid pro quo's?
18:52 sofar         since I barely have free time :)
18:52 rubenwardy    what is 10c in p?
18:52 rubenwardy    hmm
18:53 rubenwardy    is a cent 0.01$?
18:53 Megaf         yes...
18:53 Megaf         cent = 1/100
18:53 Megaf         1 USD = 100 cents
18:53 Megaf         or 1 EUR = 100 cents too
18:54 rubenwardy    I mean, I'd be happy with that for this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/cd1140f69cf31c6c3885dd81c64e505ac1559487
19:04 rubenwardy    I think we really need to work on making the project more friendly to new contributors, and better in code quality generally
19:04 rubenwardy    there's zero documentation and 3000 line files
19:05 rubenwardy    plus I found an uninitialised variable bug the other week (thanks to Shara) which just shouldn't have passed code review
19:05 rubenwardy    \o/
19:05 rubenwardy    I also need time to work on Minetest \o/
19:06 Mr_Pardison   And I need to work on getting into college.
19:24 Fixer         "making the project more friendly to new contributors, and better in code quality generally" i was saying just this for years, nobody cares
19:26 rubenwardy    Fixer, it's hard
19:30 Fixer         other projects are eager to accept contributions and new ideas, and here it is meh, will look into it, review in 10 years, rotten prs, etc
19:30 rubenwardy    Fixer, the problem is that it's very hard to review code
19:30 rubenwardy    as there are very little unit tests
19:31 Fixer         other projects probably have very same situation, they just accept it as a fact and review what the can, and fix bugs along the way it seems
19:31 rubenwardy    and there's code mess which makes it hard to understand
19:32 rubenwardy    we need more people to do reviews and test PRs, even if they're not a dev
19:32 Fixer         at least MTG development should be more open, engine is quite stable and does not need rushing but contributions should be rewarded
19:33 rubenwardy    it doesn't help when you get PRs like this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3653/commits
19:34 Mr_Pardison   wb ThomasMonroe
19:34 ThomasMonroe  thx Mr_Pardison
19:47 Fixer         rubenwardy: merge @ pray
19:51 rubenwardy    lol
19:51 rubenwardy    yay quality control
19:52 rubenwardy    we need Lua API unit tests, to make sure things don't break
20:01 twoelk        making testing easier might generate more testers  :-P
20:04 Fixer         rubenwardy: someone who does PR needs to actually test it so it can be merged with less prayers
20:04 Fixer         ._.
20:07 twoelk        one does tend to be somewhat blind finding bugs in one's own code and may have worked on solving a certain issue keeping one from thinking of other usecases - there is a reason for the <many eyes> principle
20:10 Jordach       tfw 94% first time on a Cisco module
20:10 Fixer         then PRs should be small in size to ve reviewed easier
20:16 Calinou       Jordach: sorry to hear that :D
20:16 Calinou       (I mean, CIsco)
20:16 Calinou       Cisco*
20:16 Megaf         What did I miss?
20:18 Fixer         not much
20:18 Mr_Pardison   not much other than complaining about how blind we are to bugs in our own code and testing stuff.
20:18 Fixer         "not much" feels strange
20:18 Megaf         !seen paramat
20:18 MinetestBot   Megaf: paramat was last seen at 2017-11-28 03:16:04 UTC on #minetest-hub
20:18 ShadowBot     Megaf: I saw paramat in #minetest-hub 2 days, 14 hours, 57 minutes, and 29 seconds ago saying "i assume the server loads in the mapblock(s) that contain the requested volume"
20:19 Megaf         we need ShadowBot removed
20:20 Jordach       Calinou, got one item wrong
20:20 Jordach       :^)
20:22 rubenwardy    idiot
20:22 A_Hamilton    My name Is Alexander Hamilton, and there's a million things I haven't done. But just you wait, just you wait.
20:23 Calinou       I'm here to mine nodes and chew bubblegum, and I'm all outta gum.
20:23 A_Hamilton    I shoot first and ask question never.
20:26 Fixer         https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/11/28/181218/microsoft-sees-the-future-of-windows-10-as-sets-ditching-windows-for-a-tabbed-app-interface?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29
20:26 Fixer         ---p
20:26 Fixer         forgot to remove that utm_source crap
20:27 Fixer         "HP Touchpoint Analytics Service"
20:27 Fixer         everyone wants to sell me out
20:38 Fixer         "Firefox’s Interface Is Still Extremely Customizable" i failed to move that hamburger to left side
20:38 Jordach       thb Fixer something like that is super useful in enterprise env
20:39 Jordach       tbh*
20:39 Jordach       considering most users can't understand the start menu from their browser
20:39 Jordach       (arsehole and elbow analogy)
20:39 Jordach       something like that is fantastic for enterprise
20:39 Jordach       as IT can just scroll back to find the documents without third party apps
20:40 ImNotHere     Mozilla Firefox beta slightly broken on Debian Experimental  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/MfwHADI4/Screenshot%20from%202017-11-28%2020-38-36.png
20:40 Jordach       >slightly broken
20:40 Jordach       lolwat
20:40 Jordach       you mean fucked so much it's gone through the earth to reach china, right
20:41 CloudyTiger   I guess so Jordach
20:41 CloudyTiger   Guess that's what you get when you get beta and experimental together
20:42 CloudyTiger   ~$ firefox --version
20:42 CloudyTiger   Mozilla Firefox 58.0
20:42 CloudyTiger   --version still work tho
20:43 Fixer         Jordach: i have no idea what you talking about
20:47 Jordach       Fixer, think of sets as folders for actual x86 and files together
20:47 Jordach       rather than say, recent jump lists
20:50 Fixer         .______.
20:50 Jordach       CloudyTiger, do mozilla keep hiring these guys
20:50 Jordach       https://i.imgur.com/YAgCz9x.png
20:52 Jordach       Fixer, https://i.imgur.com/izSJrRg.png
20:53 Fixer         don't run as root
20:56 CloudyTiger   lol Jordach
20:56 Jordach       >builds a web browser including outside of webpage rendering in JS
20:56 Jordach       that is why chrome is preferred
20:57 Jordach       (and why node is hated by almost any C dev)
20:57 Jordach       it's literally: programming: for dummies the language
21:02 Megaf         well, Firefox 0.57 works as expected
21:02 Megaf         no issues at all
21:03 Megaf         reinstalling 58 now
21:03 rubenwardy    occassionally pages freeze on 57, and switching to another tab and back causing spinning
21:03 benrob0329    Megaf: unless you run ALSA, in which case WebRTC is broke as all hell
21:03 rubenwardy    sorry, spinning meaning the whole page is white and a spinning indicator appears
21:04 benrob0329    Also known as broke auto focus, if you have that sense of humor :P
21:05 Megaf         58 broken
21:05 Megaf         purged all files to no avail
21:05 Jordach       >using ALSA in 2017
21:07 Calinou       https://media.hugo.pro/firefox_2017-11-28_22-05-29.png
21:07 Calinou       world record on the Snake game of https://nim-lang.org/features.html :P
21:08 benrob0329    Jordach: everything else is either overkill or broken :^)
21:10 Jordach       >Nim includes a first-class JavaScript backend
21:10 Jordach       NORMIES GET OUT
21:31 Jordach       https://jordach.net/images/yqnpufunwemzwurrr.png
21:31 Jordach       benrob0329, ^
21:41 Fixer         Jordach: programmming of DOOM, user is DOOMED
21:52 paramat       rubenwardy did i understand this correctly? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6699#issuecomment-347671425
21:53 rubenwardy    paramat, imo CSM should be only for server-provided CSM mods, and be used for a builtin-like think
21:53 rubenwardy    *thing
21:53 rubenwardy    so it's not about it being controversial, but more I think that client features should mostly be C++ and CSM to allow mod client side prediction
21:54 paramat       "and be used for" did you maean 'not'?
21:54 rubenwardy    yeah, not
21:54 rubenwardy    oops
21:55 paramat       does the current situation mean that certain CSM functions cannot be disabled because vanilla MT relies on them?
21:56 rubenwardy    hope not
21:56 paramat       death formspec?
21:57 paramat       that's what the discussion implies (maybe)
21:59 paramat       anyway i agree CSM should be server-provided only, once that is added
22:05 Fixer         firefox 57 was crashing for my friend though
22:07 paramat       anyway, server owners please support https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6699 "Server setting for complete disable of client-provided CSM"
22:10 Shara         paramat: big thumb up from me
22:12 Megaf         From me too
22:12 Shara         (also lua_api.txt = what in the world was anyone thinking :( )
22:12 Shara         (mess mess mess mess mess!)
22:12 benrob0329    I'm not a server owner, but it gets my support
22:13 Megaf         I still thing we are just wasting neurons with this CSM thing, It should just get 100% removed from the code. All problems solved.
22:13 Megaf         wasting neurons and time
22:13 Shara         I'd be fine with that, and even happy to be honest
22:14 Shara         Fix the mess and worry about additions like that once there is a solid base to build them on, then give them proper consideration to begin with
22:15 Fixer         Megaf: nope, cheating was way before CSM ever existed - fly, noclip, automine, long reach, autoeat...
22:15 Megaf         Fixer, I'm not even saying from a cheating perspective
22:15 Shara         Fixer: pretty sure he just meant CSM mess solved
22:15 benrob0329    Fixer: But this doesn't require c++ editing
22:15 Shara         We're well aware cheating isn't only due to CSM
22:16 Megaf         paramat, well done in adding "High Priority" label
22:16 Megaf         It gets some attention with that
22:16 Shara         Needs an "absolutely vital label really :)
22:17 Megaf         Can't disagree with that
22:17 benrob0329    new label "You Shall Not Pass!!"
22:17 Fixer         *,,,,,,,,,,,*
22:18 Fixer         new label "Please help make MTG great again"
22:18 Shara         I'm wondering...
22:18 Shara         If I work on lua_api.txt mess....
22:18 Shara         Will I end up making so many PRs that the devs get annoyed enough to ban me from making them? :D
22:19 Megaf         for some reason the building of minetesetserver has been stuck at 96% for hours. http://paste.debian.net/998067/
22:20 Fixer         Shara: PRs are good, if Wuzzy gets banned, you will need to worry
22:20 Fixer         feedback/contribution is always good
22:20 Fixer         minetest just needs to bring walls down
22:21 Shara         Not sure if you noticed the storm of silly trivial PRs I'm making lately
22:21 Shara         But I feel like chipping some walls walls to pieces until they fall down all by themselves
22:21 Shara         Documentation issues are ridiculous
22:22 Shara         And people post issues about them, but where are the PRs to fix them?
22:22 Shara         Can't they make PRs?
22:22 Fixer         i don't see any storm in PRs
22:22 Shara         (Hint: I know they can)
22:23 Shara         Fixer: I more than doubled my total PRs to MT this month
22:23 Megaf         Shara, I cant find any recent PR from you
22:23 Shara         Megaf: odd, considering most recent PR merged was me
22:24 Fixer         look closed PRs
22:24 Shara         Look here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commits/master
22:24 Megaf         Yep
22:24 Megaf         they are all closed already
22:24 Fixer         Shara: you had 11 commits this month, second place
22:24 Shara         Main menu formsepc allignments and documentation related mostly
22:25 Fixer         Shara: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pulse/monthly
22:25 Shara         I had 7.. not sure how those stats work :)
22:25 Megaf         well done in this one, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6625
22:25 Megaf         it's in the little things...
22:25 Shara         I'll have another one in tonight
22:26 Shara         Because I noticed lua_api.txt switches randomly between tabs and spaces for indentation
22:26 Megaf         oh, that's what you were talking about in mess
22:26 Shara         And now that I noticed, I can't even look at it without getting annoyed :D
22:27 benrob0329    tabs for life :PP
22:27 Shara         But fixes that document will be long, slow, painful mess
22:27 Shara         fixing*
22:27 Shara         benrob0329: in this case, spaces, sadly
22:27 benrob0329    Shara: use an editor
22:27 Fixer         i especially liked that fix for two buttons, OCD has been decreased
22:27 benrob0329    like vim, and retab
22:28 Shara         benrob0329: uhhh... my editor is quite fine thanks
22:28 Shara         Fixer: which fix?
22:28 benrob0329    heck, if its spaces then it should be even easier
22:28 Fixer         Shara: probably not yours
22:28 Megaf         Shara, luaapti.txt uses mostly spaces
22:28 benrob0329    just convert tabs to spaces (after setting tab length)
22:28 Shara         well, it's about 5k lines using spaces to 50ish using tabs
22:28 Megaf         I rather have it all in tabs tho
22:28 Shara         I prefer tabs generally, but not going to make the devs review 5k lines of indentation changes
22:29 Megaf         just use sed
22:29 Megaf         if that's even possible ot use sed for that
22:29 Shara         I love how everyone thing automated answers fix everything
22:29 benrob0329    Shara: they make life easier
22:30 Shara         Doesn't work here though
22:30 Shara         For example... github displays tabs and spaces (4 in this case) differently
22:30 Shara         So in some cases we've had people use incorrect levels of indentation to make things look like they allign, when they don't
22:31 Shara         When you convert all into spaces (or tabs) they no longer align
22:31 Megaf         For compatibility spaces is a better choice
22:31 Shara         SO you actually do need to look at it
22:31 Megaf         since every editor will give a different amount of space for tabs
22:32 benrob0329    Shara: what is a line with tabs?
22:32 Megaf         I almost went crazy last week with identations, my web git used one amount of space, nano used different amount of space and the IDE I was using yet a different amount of space for tabs
22:32 Megaf         so I just removed all tabs from my code and swtiched to spaced
22:32 Megaf         spaces*
22:32 Fixer         compile time
22:33 Shara         thankfully no need to compile .txt files :)
22:33 benrob0329    Megaf: thats why you use one editor, or configure each editor to display tabs the same
22:33 Shara         ^
22:33 benrob0329    now I may go crazy over your code's indentation
22:34 * benrob0329  posted a file: lua_api.txt (227KB) <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/oJrIytYejcFcEnSxLJDgqDtJ>
22:34 benrob0329    Shara: ^^
22:34 benrob0329    that should reduce the amount of work needed to fix it
22:35 Shara         Not seeing your point benrob0329
22:35 Shara         It's easy to fix
22:35 Megaf         you will not find this piece of code benrob0329
22:35 Megaf         I can't find it myself :P
22:35 Megaf         Don't worry
22:35 Shara         I just rather fix it properly instead of the sloppy approach of find/replace which people seem to think works
22:35 Megaf         I don't even remember what I had written it for
22:35 benrob0329    Shara: very well
22:35 Fixer         "'E'ating soup from a tin located in a dragged shopping cart dumps the remainder of the soup on the floor. [Bug] " If only MTG was that DEEP
22:36 Fixer         oh, i found a nice tag: Easy Fix, we should use it
22:37 Megaf         That's the type of title I'd use https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6701
22:37 Megaf         "Debug output looks strange" ^
22:37 paramat       lua api should indent with spaces, as is the norm for txt docs
22:38 Megaf         that ^
22:38 Megaf         :+1:
22:38 Shara         paramat: expect PR for this before I sleep
22:38 Fixer         you sure?
22:38 Shara         :)
22:39 paramat       cool, i'll merge it before any conflicts
22:39 Shara         thanks
22:39 benrob0329    Why is it a .txt is if is formatted in markdown?
22:39 Megaf         Shara, can you add luizrpgluiz to voice list please?
22:39 Shara         will be ready soon
22:39 benrob0329    *if it is
22:39 Fixer         benrob0329: so it can be opened in any OS
22:40 Megaf         another veteran and sometimes modder
22:40 Shara         Megaf: don't see them?
22:40 Fixer         it is pretty much plain txt
22:40 paramat       yeah many reasons
22:40 Megaf         He is coming
22:40 Shara         Get them in here and will add
22:40 paramat       MD makes it a pain for devs
22:40 Megaf         must be AFK or sotmhing
22:40 Fixer         i wonder if it is possible to use name.md.txt and get over it :p
22:40 Shara         paramat: I'm just double checking a few lines at the moment, because some are weird once I fix the indents
22:41 Megaf         Shara, here he is ^
22:42 paramat       the next job might be line length down to 80-90
22:42 Shara         paramat: sure, but that will be more time consuming
22:42 rubenwardy    <Fixer> benrob0329: so it can be opened in any OS
22:42 rubenwardy    not a valid reason
22:42 rubenwardy    as for Windows we could just rename it
22:42 Fixer         plain text editing for some reason gives me flashbacks of that printing from DOS to laser printer times (via Windows)
22:42 rubenwardy    the reason is that it's currently harder to read
22:42 rubenwardy    <paramat> MD makes it a pain for devs
22:42 rubenwardy    also not true
22:42 Shara         ^
22:43 Shara         I'm actually using MD previews in some cases to check things
22:43 rubenwardy    yeah
22:43 paramat       it's hard to work with in github
22:43 Shara         plus other documentation is in MD
22:43 Fixer         rubenwardy: rename during building?
22:43 rubenwardy    the issue is that there are lots of long sections, and github doesn't support anchors to line
22:43 Shara         So this not being MD is rather silly
22:43 rubenwardy    Fixer, no, when making the release for Windows
22:43 Amaz          When it's formated as MD it's much easier to read for reference.
22:43 Fixer         or that
22:43 luizrpgluiz   hi
22:44 paramat       most docs are txt, only client api was stupidly made md
22:44 Megaf         Hi luizrpgluiz
22:44 luizrpgluiz   hi all :)
22:44 Fixer         running newest git
22:44 paramat       i can't link someone to a line in a MD file at github
22:44 rubenwardy    it's also really hard to search the docs, as find finds all occurrences, not the relevant ones
22:44 Megaf         Thanks Shara
22:45 Shara         Hello luizrpgluiz, and welcome
22:45 luizrpgluiz   i am luizinho in brtest server
22:45 benrob0329    So..we make the docs look bad because Github sucks
22:45 rubenwardy    essentially
22:45 Megaf         !server brtest
22:45 MinetestBot   Megaf: No results
22:45 benrob0329    Makes sense
22:45 Megaf         luizrpgluiz, is the server running right now?
22:45 luizrpgluiz   no Megaf
22:45 Megaf         ok
22:45 rubenwardy    not being in MD is the least of lua_api.txt's problem
22:46 luizrpgluiz   server off
22:46 paramat       i find MD less readable at github
22:46 Megaf         MD is amazing, if you dont using ** and * and *** for bold and stuff, and instead use underline for that
22:46 Megaf         like
22:46 Megaf         This is a title
22:46 Megaf         --------------
22:47 Megaf         that's readable ^
22:47 luizrpgluiz   yes
22:48 Fixer         busted https://i.imgur.com/39DNN9n.png
22:48 Shara         I can read MD or txt equally easily, but much prefer to look at MD
22:49 paramat       MD also fills the txt file with a mess of symbols
22:49 Shara         Since what we have now is basically MD symbols as txt, it already does that
22:50 paramat       anyway, is there a way i can link to a line in an MD file at github, or display it as txt?
22:50 Shara         Hmm, not sure
22:50 Shara         Never tried, but that's a good point
22:54 Shara         https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6705
22:54 paramat       search reads the MD file text but then you can't click the line to go to the line in the file
22:54 Shara         paramat / rubenwardy ^
22:54 Amaz          You can display it as text by clicking on the "Raw" button at the top of the file, although that isn't like the github txt viewer. (e.g. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/minetest/minetest/master/doc/client_lua_api.md)
22:55 paramat       yes but i can't link to a line
22:55 Amaz          Yup
22:55 Amaz          That's the main problem
22:55 paramat       these points alone make txt preferable
22:55 Shara         Sheer length of this file is the problem if you can't link to a line
22:55 paramat       can't use search, can't link
22:56 rubenwardy    need to find out how to make https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/lua_api.html load faster
22:56 rubenwardy    that's the main reason I don't use it
22:56 paramat       this is why almost all our docs are txt
22:56 rubenwardy    plus the formatting isn't great :(
22:57 Shara         if docs are meant to be txt, can I suggest switching the other one over to txt as well?
22:57 Shara         Consistency really...
22:57 paramat       well i'm going to do that
22:57 rubenwardy    go ahead
22:57 rubenwardy    +1
22:57 Shara         You or me or anyone... I don't mind. But I feel like kicking up a fuss about the mess the docs were in
22:57 Shara         are in*
22:57 paramat       perhaps client_lua_api.md.txt ?
22:57 rubenwardy    MD is the least of the issues though
22:58 Shara         True
22:58 Shara         But then it's a quick thing to change
22:58 benrob0329    Rewrite in LaTeX :P
22:58 paramat       that file is another part of the arrogance of csm development
22:59 paramat       ok i'll do the md file PR
22:59 Shara         Anyway, I'm literally planning to go through PRs that have been marked documentation related and to try and fix things
22:59 Amaz          paramat: Wouldn't client_lua_api.txt be more consistent with lua_api.txt?
22:59 * Shara       agrees with Amaz
23:01 sofar         I have no issues with .md, but it seems easier to read in `vi` than on github :D
23:02 Shara         Hi sofar :P
23:02 paramat       ok yes .txt
23:03 paramat       i'll make that PR now and merge 6705 with it
23:04 Shara         Thanks
23:04 benrob0329    sofar: its even easier in vim :PP
23:04 Fixer         is there any hacking way to stop at least water blinking when looking undersea via glass?
23:05 Fixer         hackish*
23:05 Fixer         even dirty way
23:05 Fixer         just stop it
23:06 benrob0329    Fixer: fix z buffer
23:07 Fixer         thats massive
23:07 Fixer         maybe there are more easier and dirtier methods
23:07 sofar         Shara: I just got back from picking doors and handles...
23:07 paramat       opaque water
23:08 sofar         remove all wayter
23:08 Shara         ...doors and handles?
23:08 benrob0329    sofar: remove all rendering
23:08 sofar         wireframe
23:08 benrob0329    Heck, remove Minetest
23:09 benrob0329    Then we have no bugs at all :D
23:09 benrob0329    Wait, why dont we just spray it with some pesticides?
23:11 sofar         Shara: and sidelights, and locks/hinges, and thresholds, and...
23:11 Shara         You are now reminding me of the building work I have planned over christmas...
23:12 Shara         If only real building worked like MT.
23:12 Megaf         paramat, you didnt give an approval on #6705
23:12 Megaf         And I thought "Trivial" could be merged with a single approve
23:13 Shara         I think him saying he will merge it is good enough to cover that :P
23:14 Fixer         paramat: in a way, yes
23:14 rubenwardy    Megaf, only bug fixes technically
23:15 rubenwardy    but no one follows that really
23:15 Megaf         Well, it is kinda of a bug
23:15 Megaf         it's a typo bug, tab was typed instead of space, it happens...
23:16 Shara         Typo implies accidental but really knew better.. kind of
23:16 Shara         This is just no one caring to check stuff at all
23:16 Fixer         nah, opaque water is even weirder :/
23:17 Megaf         Fixer, Shader issue
23:17 Megaf         ?
23:17 Shara         Though lua_api is actually well written compared to some things I've worked on.
23:17 Shara         It's just the length and level of knowledge to check if everything is correct which is a bit of a barrier, or I'd have tried to do things with it by now
23:17 Fixer         ImNotThere: no, alpha z-sorting issue
23:17 ImNotThere    Fixer, GitHub issue open already?
23:18 Fixer         ImNotThere: since ages
23:18 Fixer         it is known, but not easy to solve
23:18 Fixer         it is one of big graphical downsides of minetest
23:18 paramat       'trivial' PRs can be merged on a single approval, so it doesn't need mine, but added +1 anyway
23:20 ImNotThere    Fixer, What's your GitHub user?
23:20 Fixer         ImNotThere: try guessing
23:21 rubenwardy    xXxFixerxXx
23:22 Fixer         https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-code/issues/1448 hah, not sure if totally related
23:22 ImNotThere    well, there's no issues by Fixer nor Anonymvs
23:22 ImNotThere    like, ever
23:22 Fixer         i have different nickname, you will find it
23:24 ImNotThere    Wuzzy2?
23:25 ImNotThere    lol
23:25 ImNotThere    cant find
23:25 ImNotThere    well, time to go, brb
23:26 Fixer         it seems irrlicht can do transperent sorting, but on per scene node (?)
23:33 Fixer         i have provocative question
23:33 Fixer         add command line parameter to specify /mods folder for minetest
23:34 Fixer         since mod/modpacks conflicting not solved and nobody cares, this workaround can be nice idea* (potentially)
23:34 rubenwardy    sounds good
23:35 rubenwardy    the command line interface needs work generally
23:35 rubenwardy    it's inconsistent
23:41 paramat       ok merging those 2 now
23:42 Shara         :)
23:52 paramat       ahh such a relief, i can actually work with that file now without frustration
23:53 Fixer         found few bugs in digall mod
23:53 paramat       MD format is fine in docs, but they have to be .txt
23:56 * sofar       out for work thing
23:57 sofar         paramat: only thing now is that editors will not properly markup the file
23:57 sofar         so it's a productivity loss, IMHO
23:57 Shara         if they don't meet the standard for a document, devs should request them to correct it before merging, just as they would with code.
23:58 Fixer         sofar: door handles made in China as usual?
23:58 Fixer         sofar: just curious if that cancer is in USA too
23:58 sofar         :so $VIMRUNTIME/syntax/markdown.vim
23:59 sofar         that's really cumbersome...
23:59 sofar         Fixer: no, my house will not have much China in it, since it's pretty much entirely custom