Time  Nick         Message
00:00 Sokomine     what'd help me would be a way to read the palette data from lua. short of including a lib for png support i see no way to do that :-(
00:00 Fixer        Sokomine: 16 probably enough
00:00 Fixer        "Fixed infinite loop in Windows GUI when selecting File->Exit."
00:01 Sokomine     sounds reasonable, yes. servers might want anything between 8 and 256
00:02 Shara        Pretty sure if I suggested reducing number of coloured nodes available, my players wuld lynch me.
00:02 Fixer        Sokomine: making it customisable between 8-256 - even better, with some sane defaults
00:02 Sokomine     shara: :-) especially if they used the colors already
00:03 Shara        I literally have hundreds of different colours. And somehow, yes they do use them
00:04 Fixer        PCEM v13 will gonna be BIG
00:04 Fixer        B I G
00:08 Fixer        Sokomine: i don't remember such colouring functionality in saw, is this a new feature?
00:09 Fixer        anyway good night for all, answer me here, i will read irc log anyway
00:14 IhrFussel    Leaving too, see ya
00:26 paramat      night shift begins
02:56 Natechip     Shara: ahhaha i found out how to compile minetest dev and stable on manjaro and arch
02:59 ThomasMonroe hey Natechip
03:00 Natechip     hi ThomasMonroe
04:00 Natechip     my post on how to compile minetest dev on arch based distros (manjaro)
04:00 Natechip     https://stolven11.github.io/minetest/p1
04:18 unk          Natechip, thanks...I have been using Manjaro on the desktop for 2 years now...been using the i3 tiling window manager as well...was curious how to install on arch-based systems...thanks for posting.
04:27 Natechip     unk: np, that will only work for the dev versions
11:12 Calinou      hi
11:14 Krock        hi
11:36 Shara        Hello all
11:39 Amaz         Hi :)
11:40 Raven262     Hi Calinou, Krock, Shara, Amaz, lumidify, rubenwardy, Megaf, Sokomine, red-001, Fixer, nore, sofar, lisac, shivajiva, and others.
11:41 red-001      please don't mass highligh
11:41 red-001      highlight*
11:44 Fixer        omg
11:46 Fixer        what time is it?
11:47 Fixer        music sorting time :(
11:49 Krock        Raven262, why not just "Hello *"?
11:50 Fixer        undefined reference to `es1371_device'
11:50 Fixer        oops
11:50 Fixer        please use hello/hi
11:51 Fixer        highlighting everything turns into shitshow
13:26 red-001      huh interesting the worldcraft binary is setup so that the same binary can be used for diffrent apps
13:29 red-001      s/binary/source code
13:55 Megaf        Hah
13:55 Megaf        Hi Raven262
15:47 IhrFussel    My bug report is 4 days old now and no core dev was able to simply copy&paste the test code into any 0.4.16+ init.lua to confirm it??
16:52 Fixer        IhrFussel: pffffff, FOUR DAYS OLD, if it was like FOUR years old, then I would really be alarmed
16:53 Krock        Fixer, you might want to start being alarmed about #34, from 2011
16:53 Fixer        alarm
16:53 rubenwardy   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/34
16:53 IhrFussel    Fixer, The older an issue gets WITHOUT even being "confirmed" the less likely it will ever get confirmed
16:53 red-001      !title
16:53 ShadowBot    Feature request: reload config files when SIGHUPped. · Issue #34 · minetest/minetest · GitHub
16:54 IhrFussel    I want my bug report to at least be confirmed so that devs recognize it as something to fix
16:54 red-001      Krock, well can you confirm 34?
16:54 rubenwardy   first bug request: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/95
16:54 rubenwardy   *report
16:54 IhrFussel    The "unconfirmed bug" label tells me "you are talking shit my friend"
16:54 Fixer        alarming
16:56 Krock        red-001, actually I never heard of that term (SIGHUP) before
16:56 IhrFussel    My bug report affects LOTS of different mods so that should be a high priority... I'd imagine many servers run with profiler enabled for extended times and it's just stupid that the HP modifier breaks then
16:57 IhrFussel    Every time I enable the profiler I HAVE TO disable damage or else my players lose EXP since they don't have 300+ HP but 20 instead which would mean monsters would kill them in an instant = not fair
16:58 rubenwardy   please stop using caps like that, it's incredibly annoying
16:58 rubenwardy   fwiw, I'm building MT now to test that init.lua
16:58 IhrFussel    That's my way of expressing certain words more than the rest
16:58 rubenwardy   doesn't make it less annoying
16:58 Krock        we could give you a patch to remove the profiling from that function, not sure if it's exactly what you want
16:59 Krock        rubenwardy, at least it's not all-caps :P
17:00 rubenwardy   profiler shouldn't affect functionality, just inject a timer
17:00 rubenwardy   I reckon it's not passing back the number probably
17:00 IhrFussel    The patch is not enough, I want this to be fixed in 0.5.0 which is why I reported it ... like I said it also affects 3d_armor and every other mod that relies on that callback and wants to modify the hp_change value
17:00 rubenwardy   as most other mods only do true/false
17:01 rubenwardy   will you be changing to health_max after 0.5?
17:01 IhrFussel    But set_hp() also calls the callback with a number and not true or false
17:01 rubenwardy   is there anything else different about the health system?
17:04 IhrFussel    When I switch to 0.5.0 someday I will likely switch to the new settable HP property but it still affects several other mods with profiler enabled and since it's a bug it should get fixed
17:04 rubenwardy   confirmed :P
17:10 Krock        I suppose instrument_register() in profiler/ doesn't handle the multiple return values correctly
17:10 rubenwardy   fodun the bug
17:10 rubenwardy   preparing PR
17:10 rubenwardy   ah, you found it too
17:12 rubenwardy   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6531
17:14 rubenwardy   is that what you found too, Krock ?
17:15 Fixer        aaaayayyyyy, networking in pcem
17:15 Fixer        compile success
17:15 rubenwardy   ?
17:16 Krock        rubenwardy, was in the same area but didn't notice this parenthese issue
17:17 rubenwardy   ah ok. I feel less bad about making the PR first then :)
17:17 Krock        struggled while trying to understand where "instrument" comes from and what this function actually does
17:17 rubenwardy   it applies a timer to the callback function
17:18 rubenwardy   so instead of the callback in the registered table, it's a function which sets up a timer then calls the callback
17:18 Krock        ah okay. Good to know
17:18 Natechip     Krock: i gave up windows compiling :P
17:19 * Krock      puts Natechip on a overflowing stack of other users
17:19 Natechip     Krock: just did it on manjaro (arch based_
17:19 Natechip     )*
17:20 Natechip     and little did ik that there wasnt a way to -_-
17:20 Natechip     sooo I had to find packages myself :O
17:23 shivajiva    lol, that is the way to do it on Manjero, so many changes means you have to track down the packages, you got it compiled though?
17:24 Krock        rubenwardy, if it works as expected, feel free to merge it in the next time. It's just a trivial bugfix
17:26 Natechip     shivajiva: you bet your bottom biscuit i did :D
17:27 red-001      wb thomas
17:27 ThomasMonroe thx
17:36 rubenwardy   hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com
17:36 Calinou      evening :)
17:36 Calinou      I revised my Godot CI build scripts: https://github.com/Calinou/godot-builds
17:37 Calinou      (they're in testing right now)
17:37 Calinou      Batch can be pretty crazy :P https://github.com/Calinou/godot-builds/blob/master/.appveyor.yml#L37-L41
17:39 rubenwardy   ew
17:42 ThomasMonroe Calinou what username do you have on lichess?
17:44 Calinou      https://lichess.org/@/Calinou
17:45 Calinou      I don't play often, lately
17:48 ThomasMonroe ah ok thx
17:49 ThomasMonroe i just got started, only played 6 rated games and am already down to "1106?"
17:49 Calinou      you still can add me :)
17:49 Calinou      the "?" means it's a provisional rating, it means Lichess isn't confident in the rating it's giving, because you didn't play a lot of rated games
17:49 Calinou      I'm at a low rating as well :P
17:50 red-001      Thomas-S, thats quite some uptime you got
17:52 ThomasMonroe :P
17:55 red-001      I think the code is a bit outdated through
17:57 red-001      so you might want to update it
18:08 rubenwardy   is there a rosseta code for common server rules and warnings? Eg: don't spam, stop swearing, etc
18:08 rubenwardy   *stone
18:09 red-001      don't think so
18:09 Calinou      like this? https://xkcd.com/1820/ :P
18:10 Krock        brb. printing and storing a SSL certificate
18:10 rubenwardy   no, translations
18:10 rubenwardy   I want "don't spam" etc for all major languages
18:10 Calinou      oh
18:10 Calinou      I remember Xanadu's "Ne pas jurer, detruire et relations amoureuses" :D
18:11 Calinou      (machine French translation of "Don't swear, grief or date players"
18:11 red-001      in fairness not clicking links would solve a lot of issues
18:11 Fixer        xanadu's rules are meaningless more or less
18:11 rubenwardy   that server gives me a bad feeling for some reason. May just be all the forum gossip about moderation
18:12 Fixer        best option here is not talk to anything on that server, or admin gets offended and bans
18:12 Fixer        admin on his period
18:12 Fixer        feel
18:14 Krock        "shit" -> instaban?
18:14 Fixer        Krock: no, ban in very unexpected ways, that I discovered
18:15 Fixer        also, his remarks about players like "Who is this asshole" tells a lot
18:16 Fixer        there was one more case with another guy
18:16 Fixer        it was like REPLANT OR DIEEEEEEEEEEEEE x 100 times
18:17 Fixer        replant or kick*
18:17 Fixer        whole arguing was funny
18:17 Calinou      moderating a large game server is very tiring
18:17 Fixer        server itself is nice, but owner and stuff is very cancerous
18:17 Calinou      it's not like a website or a forum
18:18 Fixer        I kinda expect civility at least from admins
18:18 Fixer        and owner feels like abusive kid
18:21 Fixer        what could be better than fresh windows 98 install (with drivers)
18:26 red-001      did ShadowBot just get a new cloak?
18:37 Fixer        red-001: "nice shtoyle" (c)
18:38 IhrFussel    Fixer, I heard they banned someone because he helped a "bad player" on another server
18:39 IhrFussel    And that they often punish players for rules that do not even exist ... you can only punish players for breaking rules and you cannot make up rules the moment the player does something you don't like... that is my opinion and I think it's the general way admins do it
18:41 IhrFussel    You CAN add to the rules later BUT it is completely wrong to punish players afterwards
18:42 IhrFussel    For example a player built something nazi-related on my server ... I then forbid it in the rules but I didn't punish the player for it cause it was before my new rule existed
18:48 IhrFussel    AFAIK that's also how ToS are done...nobody can punish you for something that's not part of the ToS
18:51 IhrFussel    rubenwardy, thanks for the PR by the way... I didn't try to have it fixed right away but that's even better than my original request
18:56 red-001      well most ToS include catch all phrases that let the service operators to retroactivly change the rules and in general act at thier discretion
18:59 IhrFussel    red-001, that makes no sense still...how can you punish someone for something nobody knew would be not allowed someday in the future?
19:00 Fixer        IhrFussel: cases I seen were simple, admin/owner random abuse
19:00 red-001      I don't agree with it
19:00 red-001      but thats how companies tend to do it
19:01 IhrFussel    Like if someone used swear words a lot and now I add a "no swearing" rule...which asshole would seriously go back in the chat log and punish all of those players? That sounds unbelievable
19:03 paramat      IhrFussel i can see you're improving, but i agree with ruben-wardy that capitalising certain words is irritating :]
19:04 Fixer        oh you are all so sensitive
19:04 red-001      ^
19:04 Fixer        it is not today chat is full of caps, s p a c i n g and ｖａｐｏｒｗａｖｅ
19:04 red-001      well companies tend to add it to thier ToS if someone finds a way to abuse thier service that they didn't think of so they can deal with it
19:04 red-001      s/if/in case
19:06 IhrFussel    red-001, but how can it be legally fine to punish people backdated?
19:06 red-001      don't ask me I'm not a lawyer
19:37 IhrFussel    "you were banned cause we admins have our reasons" is the stupidest reason I've ever read
19:38 IhrFussel    That seems to be the no.1 line banned players get on servers if the staff actually had *no* reason
19:50 Shara        I dare say there's certain things I'd ban a player for even if I don't have an explicit rule in advance
19:50 Shara        But that's because people have an amazing capacity to think up new ways of being rotten
19:51 Shara        It certainly wouldn't be "because I happen to feel like it"
19:58 Fixer        it would in xanadu case
19:59 Shara        I've had players who intentionally try to "just" avoid breaking my rules while being as abusive to other people as they possibly can
20:00 rubenwardy   CTF technically doesn't have any rules yet
20:00 rubenwardy   as I lost the rules mod
20:01 rubenwardy   but I'll still ban for cheat clients, as that's implicitly not allowed
20:01 IhrFussel    Shara, the point is you cannot punish people for something only you find wrong in your mind...you have to write it down somewhere
20:02 Shara        Fussel, I'm all for fairness, which you know.
20:02 Shara        But what actually stops me?
20:02 IhrFussel    What stops people from killing other people?
20:03 IhrFussel    Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's fine
20:03 rubenwardy   the law?
20:03 Shara        If someone does something that is clearly inappropriate or cruel on my servers, and that is clearly done with malicious intent, but I just haven't managed to capture it within my rules, why should I be compelled to let them repeat it again?
20:04 IhrFussel    Even in countries where no laws exist it would not be fine to kill people...way too many admins feel like gods which is big part of the reason I created my own server
20:05 Shara        Oddly enough I made my own precisely because the owner of a server I played on called himself "god" and tried to act like one :)
20:05 IhrFussel    I feel like a regular player on my server...I only add rules that I can follow...yes the admin has to follow the same rules as the players IMO
20:05 Shara        But you can't compare actual murder to banning a malicious player on an MT server.
20:05 Shara        I agree with you that banning just because you can is terrible. But admins who play it that way won't build a decent community of players.
20:07 IhrFussel    If the admin cannot think of enough situations that might be bad when players exploit them, then their rules are flawed
20:07 Calinou      <IhrFussel> That seems to be the no.1 line banned players get on servers if the staff actually had *no* reason
20:07 Calinou      "for no reason"
20:07 Calinou      https://media.hugo.pro/liek_muted.png
20:07 Calinou      :P
20:08 IhrFussel    Calinou, no.1 reason line* ... banning just for fun or because you think you can is the worst, that's true
20:09 Shara        Way I see it, if someone is genuinely creating a problem, whether rules cover it or not, I have a duty to the other players on the server to handle it. If I honetly believe a ban is the only way to do that, I will ban.
20:10 Shara        It's never without consideration.
20:11 red-001      we went over this already
20:12 Raven262     [offtopic] Calinou, what has the doom gotten to: https://i.imgur.com/oG88dhU.png
20:12 Shara        Sorry red, but it's what I walked in seeing, so I'll comment.
20:12 IhrFussel    That's still not fair to the player, cause they had absolutely no way to know that they wouldn't be allowed to do that... if the ban is just a temp ban then it's tolerable though
20:12 Calinou      Raven262: I like how indies make games less detailed than 90s games
20:12 Calinou      some of them seriously believe it saves up on the GPU
20:12 IhrFussel    But banning someone FOREVER for something they couldn't have known is wrong in every way
20:13 Calinou      Raven262: do you want to play some Freedoom coop, by the way?
20:13 paramat      Shara is right, you can never predict what rules will be needed and specified
20:13 Shara        Fussel, abusive behaviour is always wrong.
20:14 paramat      as long as there is a good reason, stated in rules or not makes no difference
20:14 Raven262     Calinou, not this evening, i'm rather tired, sorry.
20:14 Shara        I don't need a "don't shoplift" sign in a store to know it's not a nice thing to do, or expect people to wear "please don't punch me" badges.
20:14 IhrFussel    paramat, still: banning someone forever is wrong...you should ban them for some time and apply that rule to the rules in the meantime
20:14 paramat      forever might be justified occasionally
20:15 IhrFussel    You usually use more general terms to keep the rules short... like "respect each other" includes a lot already
20:16 Shara        Fussel, yet plenty will say they didn't understand that to mean whatever thing they did anyway
20:17 IhrFussel    To ban someone forever could be justified if the action the player did was something you could explain with *common sense*
20:17 Shara        You just made my own case for me then :)
20:17 Calinou      Raven262: it's ok :)
20:18 IhrFussel    But if the admin thinks a player who critized the server needs to be banned even though there was no rules that forbids it (extreme case) I find it wrong to ban
20:19 IhrFussel    To be able to critize is common sense I'd say
20:19 rubenwardy   that is wrong
20:30 IhrFussel    Critique is allowed in almost every modern country ... you shouldn't expect from the people that they would know that it's not allowed on your server...and in general a server with such a rule is a dictatorship in my eyes
20:32 Calinou      players clearly viewed as abusive by the majority also ought to get the boot
20:32 Calinou      and, griefers or immature players are not very popular on most servers :)
20:34 paramat      servers are a benign dictatorship and have to be. polite and reasonable criticism from a player is of course fine
20:35 IhrFussel    Critique is by definition polite...everything else is discrimination/insulting, that's how I learned it
20:37 IhrFussel    Of course I don't expect you to tolerate players saying "meh this server is really crappy" that is not critique
20:39 IhrFussel    Also if my server must be a "dictatorship" then it's a reasonable one where every player keeps their basic rights and nobody is treated in an unfair way
20:41 red-001      nerzhul, how are channels meant to be used?
20:41 nerzhul      hello
20:41 red-001      most packets use channel 0
20:41 nerzhul      oh you talk about UDP MT protocol
20:41 nerzhul      i don't know it's sapier code
20:41 red-001      oh ok
20:42 red-001      I will just copy what other packets do then
20:42 nerzhul      and i rewrote network in the new code no channel, because not needed
20:42 nerzhul      red-001, what do you try to implement ?
20:42 nerzhul      if i'm correct channel is more related to reliability
20:42 red-001      just a simple packet with server info for the pause menu
20:43 red-001      part of https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6528
20:43 nerzhul      oh nice
20:44 red-001      will also allow for more information about remoute server to be displayed
20:46 red-001      I planning to reimplement my on join/leave player CSM callback
20:46 red-001      since we are breaking network compatibily I wouldn't have to deal with servers that don't send accurate player list information
21:14 benrob0329   Oh, and just so everyone knows I am back from vacation, with some video ideas and a new camera :PP
21:21 Sokomine     fixer: the saw is just learning to do hardware coloring. most of the remaining trouble comes from translating the 256 color palette the full block may have to some(?) other palettes diffrent (colored) versions of the saw nodes may have
21:21 Sokomine     fixer: 13:47 is music sorting time? :-)
21:22 Fixer        Sokomine: and it was fail
21:31 Sokomine     regarding xanandu: most of the time it's no problem at all to play there. the moderators and players are friendly. and yes...the rules and their interpretations don't exactly match what i'd consider...desirable. so..build, enable save to localmap, and it won't matter too much (the next map reset will happen sooner or later anyway...)
21:33 Sokomine     maybe you ought to think less about punishing players for something. and yes, there may be situations where the rules don't cover the situation. most server admins act sensible and find a good solution in such a case
21:35 Sokomine     shara: *g* yes. that's a problem. some players may be very creative. too strict adherence to rules might give them freedom to do really unwanted things. the rules are after all more guidelines than a set of laws covering all situations
21:38 Sokomine     IhrFussel: that's less of a problem. shara and admins like her would talk to the player, and if it's a misunderstanding, a ban would really be very unlikely
21:40 IhrFussel    Sokomine, I just responded to the xanadu forum thread where someone apparently has been banned for helping a banned player on another server... And this ban is FINAL ... I was rather talking about such stupid bans
21:41 IhrFussel    To ban the friend of a banned players just for the sake of him being the banned player's friend is ridiculous
21:42 Shara        From my experiences, when something like that happens, there's usually a lot more going on in the background
21:42 IhrFussel    And xanadu's admin came to my server earlier responding to my forum thread's post
21:42 Shara        Which admin? Xanadu has two.
21:42 IhrFussel    Instead of answering in the forum topic
21:42 IhrFussel    Shinji_Ikari the one who controls everything
21:43 Sokomine     IhrFussel: ah. i didn't have time to catch up on the forum yet. but what you describe doesn't sound entirely unprecedented
21:44 Shara        Fussel, really? You're telling a server owner they don't have the right to ban someone from their server?
21:44 Shara        And you expect a favourable response from them?
21:44 IhrFussel    Shara, I didn't tell them to stop, I gave them my 2 cents which means "in my opinion the way you act a staff is completely wrong"
21:44 Sokomine     talk to tenplus1 if you want to talk about xanandu. he's usually here and no problem to talk to him :-)
21:45 IhrFussel    If they don't care about me seeing their behavior as "bad staff" then they could just ignore my post...but I have the right to express my opinion about their capabilities of managing a server
21:46 Shara        Still, dropping that in public isn't exactly a nice thing to do either.
21:46 Shara        And you do realise the player's you are defending seem to have made problems in a lot of places.
21:47 IhrFussel    And I had many players who "fled" from the server, so I don't make that stuff up
21:47 red-001      and we are back to this
21:47 Shara        I don't always agree with what Shinji says or does either, but it's his server. :)
21:47 Sokomine     red: sorry :-( just read the log and replied
21:48 IhrFussel    One of my moderators is an ex-moderator on xanadu and she also confirmed to me what other players have told me before
21:48 Sokomine     exactly. shara has it right
21:48 red-001      we will need #minetest-bad-admins at this rate
21:48 Krock        I'm there! >:D
21:48 Shara        red-001: you're welcome not to read.
21:48 Sokomine     no, sorry, krock, you don't qualify :-)
21:48 Shara        Hehe
21:48 * Krock      leaves that channel again :'(
21:49 red-001      well now I own the channel
21:49 * red-001    parts
21:49 Krock        congratulations, I guess?
21:49 Sokomine     maybe...we could put maikaumine in :) he creates intresting servers - and then refuses to add rules to them :-) no protection :-(( (just joking :))
21:49 red-001      huh can you force irc clients to join a channel?
21:49 rubenwardy   red-001, I turned off my server for a year and a half.  Do I account?
21:49 rubenwardy   *count
21:49 Krock        red-001, only the network can
21:49 red-001      sure all are welcome
21:50 red-001      * by all I mean bad admins
21:50 IhrFussel    I'm not here to complain about bad admins... I just support human rights and fairness on all levels and I tell my opinion when I see something that is not fair on both sides
21:50 Sokomine     rubenwardy: depends. too many do that. on the other hand..players have no right to request a server to stay up, so...i'm afraid you don't qualify. sorry :-)
21:51 Shara        Well, after your comments Fussel, I don't even know if I can or can't join bad-admins :(
21:51 rubenwardy   :'(
21:51 Sokomine     maybe red can write a bot that maintains the channel. a bot can surely act as a bad admin and ban every player who joins a server
21:51 rubenwardy   the best thing about CTF is apart from rankings, there's nothing really to keep up
21:51 red-001      Sokomine, lets make chanserv a bad admin
21:51 red-001      /ban *
21:51 Shara        (other than my still failing attempts to get good screenshots!)
21:52 red-001      Shara, make the client spam screenshots
21:52 Sokomine     red: poor chanserv :-) hasn'd done anything bad either
21:52 Shara        rubenwardy: why don't you have players who actually fight!? :(
21:52 red-001      pros: one of them must be good
21:52 red-001      cons: you need to by a few more 5tb harddrives
21:52 Shara        No, impossible to get nice screenshots of multiple players fighting at once when they don't fight...
21:52 red-001      s/by/buy
21:53 Sokomine     ctf?
21:53 Shara        capture the flag
21:53 Sokomine     ah
21:53 Krock        Call The Firemen
21:53 rubenwardy   Sokomine, https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13157
21:53 rubenwardy   also, those are very old screenshots
21:54 rubenwardy   the old map
21:54 Krock        good old guests
21:54 IhrFussel    I'm not against creating rules on servers that seem "silly" to many... I simply find it wrong to treat players who probably put a lot of effort into your service, like that ... and if you deeply think about it you'd agree
21:56 red-001      :( seems that their is no-one willing to work on CSM for 0.5
21:56 IhrFussel    Sometimes admins don't understand what a permanent ban means for the player: They lose EVERYTHING on that server ... so the reason to ban them should be a *good* one
21:56 Sokomine     rubenwardy: ah. that kind of game doesn't really match my intrests. but i'm sure many younger players like such games
21:56 Shara        Fussel, maybe consider that admins just might be taking that into consideration before they ban?
21:56 rubenwardy   the best players are ~19-22
21:57 rubenwardy   a few of those
21:57 IhrFussel    Shara, I don't believe that they do or else they wouldn't ban for smaller issues let alone things that weren't even part of the rules
21:57 Shara        Okay, well I guess we established that you believe I'm a ban admin then. So be it.
21:58 Shara        bad*
21:58 IhrFussel    There are other ways to punish players...*without* taking their account...and my server shows such another way
21:58 Shara        bad-banning*?
21:58 Sokomine     rubenwardy: as i said...young :)
21:59 IhrFussel    Shara, you don't fully understand my intentions: I doubt that you would ban a player forever over something like "he's a friend of a banned player"
21:59 Shara        I understand quite well.
21:59 Sokomine     hm, you could also run one of those autoban-bots that look for forbidden words and ban based on that. that'd be a good qualification for bad/incapable/inexperienced admin
21:59 Shara        You seem to have an issue with this specific ban on one specific server, but are making it a much mor general issue.
22:00 Shara        I agree bans should be made with consideration, but I disagree with you completely that a ban can only be made with a specific rule.
22:00 shivajiva    hmm we use those to kick players not ban them usually
22:00 Sokomine     hm, yes, ihrfussel seems to want to take freedom further, while shara takes a more practical approach. it's unlikely that players would have serious problems on either server without seriously and purposefully misbehaving
22:00 Shara        And now I'm going back to taking screenshots.
22:01 Sokomine     :-) screenshots of what?
22:01 Shara        CTF :)
22:01 Shara        And maybe some other things.
22:01 Sokomine     ah. hm. doesn't sound like a building-orientated server to me? actual...fighting...
22:01 * Sokomine   runs away
22:02 rubenwardy   Sokomine, it's supposed to be focused on base defence and offense
22:02 rubenwardy   so building walls and castles, and defending and assulting
22:02 rubenwardy   however players don't defend at all, they just walk cluelessly around
22:03 rubenwardy   and so players can just quickly dig in, grab flag, run out
22:04 shivajiva    if a player runs the risk of losing everything, you'd think they would behave on a server but that doesn't seem to be the case, players that value what they have make good candidates for helpers and the divide starts to form.
22:05 IhrFussel    shivajiva, but would you ban a player for something they did and it was never stated? How can server owners say it's OK to punish someone for something they had no way of knowing about
22:06 Sokomine     rubenwardy: my castles take way too much time, and griefers would not be welcomed at all
22:06 rubenwardy   well, functional keeps not decorative
22:06 Shara        Fussel... there are certain things that it's just universally bad to do regardless of whether rules say. You seem to be missing this point.
22:06 rubenwardy   I quite like how making them functional for defence causes different designs and strategies
22:07 Sokomine     mine are decorative :-) they just pretend to be functional :-)
22:07 rubenwardy   but yeah, no everyone's cup of tea
22:07 rubenwardy   I'm building one on RC atm
22:07 Sokomine     that's right. and it's good that such a server exists
22:07 rubenwardy   trying to make it realisticly defender
22:08 shivajiva    then we have the players that pretend to be reasonable to see if they can get a position of power and turn into trolls when refused. Banning people for no reason isn't acceptable either, I have only met one such server owner who wasn't a child and they don't hang round MT any longer
22:08 Sokomine     that sounds good, rubenwardy. do you have a screenshot?
22:08 IhrFussel    Shara, that still doesn't mean banning forever is good in that case...you should either warn them or temp ban ... you *should* give them the chance to behave better AFTER they've been told that it's wrong on the server
22:10 shivajiva    there are a few people that retained permanent bans on my server, OnceOver, heyheyhey and a few other people but for very good reasons
22:11 shivajiva    if I come hacking on your server will you give me a second chance fussel?
22:11 benrob0329   I would say it depends on the hack, and the purpose of it
22:11 shivajiva    the second time I might decide to wipe your world
22:12 benrob0329   If its meant to educate devs and server owners, I would be less inclined to ban someone for that
22:12 IhrFussel    On my server the rules are what's to follow ... if there is something that's not in the rules and a player exploits that oppurtunity then it's my job as admin to update the rules and close that "hole"
22:12 Shara        Also, give how often xban.db used to corrupt, banning forever has never really been a thing before now :)
22:12 Shara        given*
22:12 shivajiva    hackers are never wanted in a game
22:12 benrob0329   If its just to cheat, the chances are higher that it'll be a ban, even a permaban
22:13 shivajiva    if I fill your spawn with lava do I get a second chance? Do yo have a specific rule for that?
22:14 shivajiva    if I find a way to crash your server will I be welcomed back to do it daily
22:15 shivajiva    18 months I had that behaviour regularly
22:15 shivajiva    talk to shinji about her players and experiences
22:15 LazyJ        To each server, their own. There are more than enough servers for banned players and disenfranchised players to go to find one that is more accommodating to them. Players banned from one server means more players for another server (and higher ranking on the MT Servers list).
22:16 shivajiva    there is a reason xanadu is like fort knox
22:18 shivajiva    we all learn in our own way IhrFussel but it's shades of grey not black and white
22:18 paramat      IhrFussel , angelo has been extremely irritating in that thread, spamming arguments since May, which led to an admin stating 'we have our reasons' out of exhaustion. just from angelo's behaviour in the thread it seems very likely he deserves a ban and i expect he was given a good reason, but pretends he wasn't
22:18 rubenwardy   I'd welcome people to crash my server - as long as it's a CTF bug
22:19 shivajiva    angelo is an idiot, confirmed and one of the players perma banned from my server
22:20 rubenwardy   she private messaged me all of her so-called security team's passwords
22:20 IhrFussel    paramat, I didn't talk about angelo...I was talking about someone else who is angelo's friend and got banned now too for *helping* angelo on another server
22:20 rubenwardy   they were all exactly the same
22:20 Calinou      rubenwardy: heh, trying to connect to the CTF server and it's full
22:20 rubenwardy   and she was asking for a mod to stop their team from being able to change the passwords or have their privs taken
22:20 Calinou      could I have a reserved slot, maybe? :P
22:20 rubenwardy   "Calinou"?
22:20 rubenwardy   sure
22:20 Calinou      (although I didn't join it yet)
22:20 Calinou      yeah
22:21 paramat      IhrFussel i expect the person you are referring to is just as bad and the situation is the same
22:21 rubenwardy   lol
22:21 rubenwardy   <CTF_Bot> Player Calinou does not exist.
22:21 rubenwardy   I'll kick some people
22:21 rubenwardy   try in 10 seconds
22:21 shivajiva    angelo_1123, geolocates to Ireland and is a pure troll, hijacked mcg's server for a while and causes mayhem where ever possible
22:22 Shara        He appears to be associated with Faker as well.
22:23 paramat      IhrFussel when an admin writes "we never ban for no reason" it's usually after a reason has been given but the player rants endlessly
22:23 Calinou      rubenwardy: gah, too late
22:23 Calinou      didn't try, it's full again :/
22:24 rubenwardy   ah!
22:24 rubenwardy   you can use setpassword to make an account
22:24 paramat      which admin stated "we never ban for no reason" and where?
22:25 IhrFussel    I can guarantee you that the person who got banned never behaved wrongly on xanadu (an ex-moderator confirmed to me that)
22:25 IhrFussel    Many admins say such things I didn't point to a specific one
22:28 Shara        Fussel, pretty sure if Ten said it there was a reason.
22:29 Sokomine     rubenwardy: well, kicking players just to make room *might* qualify you for "bad admin" :-)
22:29 rubenwardy   probably
22:29 Shara        Na, he didn't kick me, so it's okay :)
22:29 red-001      well thats it Sokomine said off to #minetest-bad-admin with you
22:29 rubenwardy   I did it then realised that I could just temporarily raise max-users
22:30 red-001      s/said/said it
22:30 IhrFussel    Okay let's just end this argument: In case there is a real reason for banning him (angelo's friend) then it would've been better to tell him that reason ... and if there was no real reason I stand by my point that it was not fair to the player
22:30 Shara        Hmm.. and suddenly I am kicked :D
22:30 Shara        rubenwardy: bad-admin it is!
22:30 rubenwardy   blame the robot
22:30 Shara        But it's your robot!
22:30 paramat      "Many admins say such things I didn't point to a specific one" in most cases they are right. instead of generalising the whole server and all admins focus your argument on the specific situation
22:30 Sokomine     :-)
22:31 Shara        I don't always make ban reasons public either.
22:31 Shara        It's generally between me and the player
22:31 Shara        Though it depends on circumstance.
22:32 Calinou      https://lobste.rs/moderations /d
22:32 Calinou      :D*
22:32 Calinou      it's an Hacker News-like website
22:32 paramat      generally, the admin are usually right and you will get a distorted account from the players involved
22:32 Calinou      *all* moderation actions are public
22:33 paramat      angelo's friend very probably was given a reason. a friend of angelo seems likely to be an annoying kid too
22:33 red-001      so who is angelo person?
22:33 red-001      I think I saw the name somewhere before
22:34 rubenwardy   https://forum.minetest.net/search.php?author_id=20413&sr=posts
22:34 paramat      your post in the thread seems directed at tensplus and the many justified times that "we never ban for no reason" was stated
22:34 rubenwardy   she's the leader of Amarza, Minetest's biggest security group!
22:34 rubenwardy   how do you *not* know her, red-001?
22:35 rubenwardy
22:35 red-001      must be poor networking on my part
22:35 rubenwardy   something that's quite funny is that Jan this year she was asking for servers
22:35 rubenwardy   but didn't get any offers
22:35 paramat      wow that thread is amazing, i would have temp-banned most of these players from the forum by now =)
22:36 rubenwardy   so made this "security group" to help people protect against hackers which they know so much about
22:36 red-001      can you link to her defcon/blackhack talks or is she too important for those?
22:36 rubenwardy   or in other words, give her privs and let her take over
22:36 paramat      ranting kids who can't type full words
22:37 red-001      these posts are painful to read
22:38 rubenwardy   you should see the ones I've deleted
22:38 Shara        I actually stopped reading the forums because I was so fed up of their posts.
22:39 paramat      hehe yes i never read server threads
22:39 rubenwardy   they're generally cancerous
22:40 red-001      see you are being bad admin again, trying to get me to read a memetic hazard
22:40 rubenwardy   oh noes
22:41 red-001      well thanks for being good admin and getting rid of the worst ones
22:41 IhrFussel    My post was *not* directed at tenplus1 or any other specific person...it was directed towards the general management of the server...that involves the staff members but also the atmosphere in general
22:42 IhrFussel    I had at least 100 players on my server telling me about how "bad" xanadu was with banning them for silly reasons such as "name too similar to another"
22:43 paramat      an angry player's account is likely to be highly distorted
22:43 Natechip     lol what
22:43 rubenwardy   Natechip, adding team speak
22:43 rubenwardy   decided to make Minetest proprietary
22:44 Natechip     rubenwardy cool
22:44 red-001      rubenwardy, can you move rendering to the server?
22:44 red-001      I'm tired of all these hackers
22:44 rubenwardy   yeah, that would make cheating impossible!
22:44 rubenwardy   just send raw keyboard and mouse input
22:44 Natechip     unk did my compiling tutorial help?
22:45 red-001      oh and use jpeg for the video
22:45 red-001      no interframe conpression ofcourse that would damage the quality
22:49 unk          Natechip, I am getting ready to try it now....been busy today:)
22:49 Natechip     unk: cool :) just remember that specific one is for minetest-dev
22:50 unk          will do
22:52 red-001      does yaourt not work on that arch clone?
22:56 Fixer        finished more boxes
22:56 Fixer        "As I've already mentioned no-one is banned without good cause" hahahah
22:57 Fixer        ban because of stating developers are working on the problem is good cause ;)
23:00 Natechip     red-001 it does. but some people don't use it. i didn't find anything with yaourt for minetest dev
23:00 sfan5        https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/?O=0&K=minetest ????
23:01 red-001      7 aur/minetest-git 20170621.1425c6def-1 (42) (0.20)
23:01 Fixer        IhrFussel: you are acting waaay too much germanic in that thread, owner is pushy and pretty aggressive guy who can bun you simply if he does not like you, or you looked wrong way, it is useless to argue with him
23:01 red-001      there is even one for leveldb
23:04 Fixer        oh, voxelands lives again
23:04 Fixer        lots of activity 2 weeks ago
23:05 red-001      too bad we can't port any of thier work
23:05 red-001      their*
23:05 Fixer        sfan5: thats the beauty of arch
23:05 Fixer        I hope I spelled it right
23:05 Fixer        you can find anything on AUR
23:06 Fixer        i like manjaro way
23:06 Fixer        simplifying arch but keeping its power
23:07 Fixer        i'm not really sure if adding mods itself to distro repositories like debian is good idea, reason: years old mods
23:09 Fixer        ttf-ms-fonts still popular
23:09 sfan5        ms fonts are a good idea for compatibility reasons
23:09 sfan5        lots of website layouts break if your fonts are not identical
23:11 IhrFussel    Fixer, then I wonder how so "many" can support him
23:13 Fixer        IhrFussel: it is kind of servers where you can be banned with and without much reason, only option is to find another server and enjoy it, i decided to post a warning for players in topic, even if players acts ok most of the time, there is still random possibilities
23:14 IhrFussel    That sounds horrible to me...so players there are at constant risk of being banned for "acting wrong" in his eyes
23:15 Fixer        IhrFussel: i know you already argued about that, but he thinks thats his server and he can do whatever he wants, your option is to find a more """stable""" server
23:16 Fixer        there are plenty of calm servers where you can build and enjoy without much problems and even with nice admins
23:16 unk          Natechip, the directions worked...have 5.0 installed in a virtual michine with ArchMerge...thanks for sharing the link.
23:17 Natechip     unk: np
23:17 Natechip     happy it worked :D
23:17 Natechip     let me know if i need to edit the page
23:18 IhrFussel    Fixer, well technically he is right but he shouldn't wonder why so many leave his server then (and I know a whole lot of players left the server already and found a better one)
23:18 Fixer        IhrFussel: he then needs to be honest and post rule 0: you will be kicked/banned with or without reason depending on my mood (have fun!)
23:19 Fixer        ... "thats my server - i do what i want"
23:21 IhrFussel    I'm pretty sure many there just play cause they have their projects/friends there...and they just avoid a ban by shutting their mouth about him
23:21 Shara        Discussions about admining approaches are one thing... but can we limit open criticism of specific servers while there isn't even anyone involved in running that server here to respond?
23:21 shivajiva    ^
23:27 IhrFussel    I would talk to him IF he had an IRC and/or a forum account...but he has neither he is only present on his server where he could simply ban any kind of critique
23:28 jas_         he's an op here
23:28 jas_         they run a tight ship over there at xanadu
23:28 IhrFussel    Not tenplus1...I'm talking about Shinji_Ikari
23:28 jas_         i'm quite fond of it, though i've only played briefly -- still more than any other server
23:29 Fixer        IhrFussel: enable local map saving ;)
23:29 Fixer        IhrFussel: capture your builds and welcome to another server
23:30 IhrFussel    I hope he will join my server again soon and stay a bit...he doesn't need to fear a ban cause I'm able to discuss/argue with any player if necessary
23:30 Calinou      gtg, good night :)
23:30 jas_         rest well
23:30 Shara        Good night Calinou
23:31 shivajiva    IhrFussel: why do you assume male gender for Shinji? You should pop in and have a chat with them instead of shooting the breeze here about it =)
23:31 Fixer        IhrFussel: it is also kinda sad they reset the map year ago or so
23:31 shivajiva    night Cal
23:31 Fixer        shivajiva: no need, find another server, problem solved
23:32 shivajiva    plenty to go at
23:33 IhrFussel    shivajiva, I already said that one of my moderators (MerleManga) was a moderator on xanadu until recently and she told me quite a bit about the "life on xanadu"
23:34 Fixer        red-001: are you here?
23:34 Fixer        i have excellent suggestion for a CSM mod
23:34 Fixer        what if you can import/export schematics via CSM ingame?
23:35 Fixer        for example, I have this nice base on one server but it is show downing or other reasons, so I select the area, CSM does it thing, on new server i set coordinates and it recreates entire build, ofc it will needs blocks supplied
23:36 Fixer        show downing, wth
23:36 Fixer        engrish
23:36 Fixer        shut downing*
23:36 Fixer        shut downs*
23:36 shivajiva    lol
23:36 shivajiva    come on Fixer
23:37 red-001      I think fixer segfaulted
23:37 Fixer        no
23:37 Fixer        red-001: tell me, is it possible ^^
23:38 rubenwardy   https://i.rubenwardy.com/oOtt4TEvVO.png
23:38 shivajiva    yay let's steal buildings from servers
23:38 red-001      well we have node getters
23:38 rubenwardy   gitting god
23:38 rubenwardy   *good
23:38 red-001      someone said that voxel maniple is insecure dunno about scheme
23:38 Fixer        rubenwardy: with Duke Nukem Voice*
23:39 shivajiva    any decent owner would allow players to ask for a schema of their builds
23:39 Fixer        shivajiva: you can steal them anyway, but you need to rebuild it by hand :}
23:39 rubenwardy   local map saving
23:39 shivajiva    Ik  ;)
23:40 rubenwardy   ah, can't upload to a server you don't control though
23:40 Fixer        in what sense? not upload but build itself
23:41 Fixer        by loading schem to client and getting real blocks from inventory and placing them on server
23:41 Fixer        magic
23:41 shivajiva    no but it's yours till you come across an owner willing to drop it in
23:41 Shara        I've accepted schems from players before and loaded them into the server.
23:41 Fixer        i like how maikerumine saved a lot of good builds from original just test server and put them on ESM, wonder if ESM is running again
23:41 Sokomine     fixer: export - that would be useful. instead of using local mapsaving, loading the world and applying worldedit, using a csm would be very fine and helpful. import though...that's another matter. i don't think automatic building ought to be allowed as such. a way to upload schematics so that the server owner/moderators can decide might be ok
23:42 Shara        Though I usually expect them to make sure the nodes fit what's on my server first
23:42 LazyJ        Local save is one of the reasons why I only build nice stuff in my singleplayer world anymore.
23:42 Fixer        anymore?
23:43 red-001      Sokomine, well I could allow getting a base64 encoded version a schematic
23:43 Sokomine     fixer: i would consider such "magic" cheating in general. unless you've built the building by hand once. even then it might require mentionning on a sign or so
23:43 red-001      that a mod could save to modstorage
23:43 Fixer        red-001: on the other hand this thing is dangerous
23:44 Fixer        red-001: lets say you save smth like swastika and got stacks of cobble and just spam it everywhere with simple command
23:44 Fixer        red-001: thats kinda bad
23:44 red-001      yeah I say it's better to just save the scheme
23:44 Fixer        yeah
23:44 Fixer        so i can put it in my worldedited flat world
23:44 red-001      and create a server mod fo accepting base64 encoded scheme
23:46 Sokomine     fixer: in general those of us who value building would like to be sure that the building was built by whoever "owns" the land or is otherwise mentionned. claiming someone elses buildings as your own ones is...not so desirable. so, uploading a schematic ought to be the exception. there can be a way to do that, but actually placing it into the world would require the ok of a moderator
23:46 Fixer        Sokomine: at least saving schematic would be nice
23:46 Sokomine     fixer: definitely
23:46 red-001      are schemes save?
23:46 Sokomine     ought to be possible by now?
23:46 Fixer        no idea
23:46 Sokomine     save in which way?
23:46 red-001      safe*
23:47 Sokomine     yes, safe from what?
23:47 red-001      like can a bad scheme crash a server?
23:47 Sokomine     for uploading?
23:47 Sokomine     hmm. depends on how well the mechanism for reading them is