Time Nick Message 03:55 benrob0329 rubenwardy, sofar: https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/tasks 03:56 benrob0329 (Offtopic) 10:51 Megaf Hi texmex 10:51 Megaf whoops 10:51 Megaf that was meant to tenplus1 10:51 Megaf Hi all 10:53 Dumbeldor Hi Megaf 11:01 Megaf that moment you get so lost in you DE you dont even know if you are in GNOME, XFCE or MATE 11:03 Megaf I mean, look at it http://i.imgur.com/pfQvdwn.png 11:12 IhrFussel Is the color definition mandatory when setting the player sky back to regular sky?? 11:13 IhrFussel The color seems obsolete in this case cause the engine is supposed to use whatever current sky color the daytime defines 11:39 Bobr2 its to early 12:26 IhrFussel One of my players claims they got a square minimap with an arrow in it...how? 12:27 DS-minetest IhrFussel: sneak+minimp 12:28 IhrFussel I feel like MT has way too many hidden settings/features that nobody uses 12:29 IhrFussel Because nobody gets introduced to it by the game 12:31 DS-minetest you mean like inventory_items_animations? 12:32 IhrFussel Yes and many other settings that are buried in "advanced settings" almost nobody ever edits because it looks extremely complicated...other games chose a better approach: a long scrollable page of settings 12:34 IhrFussel Of course many advanced settings SHOULD be hidden...but things like view range, inventory stuff, HUD stuff should be on the front settings page IMO 12:39 twoelk you could formulate your suggestions in a nice overview list that clearly shows how you imagine the organisation of settings - someplace for others to see and discuss 12:54 * twoelk wonders wether he is still connected 12:56 Fuchs twoelk: you reconnected, yes 12:58 Shara IhrFussel: the alternative map locks the map with north up, instead of turning the map with you. Just depends how you want your map to work. 14:09 lumidify1 I have a question for server owners: roughly how much bandwidth do your servers use on average per month? I'm just wondering in case I decide to run a server myself sometime. 14:42 Zeno` hi. can someone please remove my +o access? 15:02 ThomasMonroe_ Zeno why are you leaving? 15:03 Zeno` I've lost interest in the project to be honest and I'm working on a game of my own. To be fair I haven't contributed much for quite a while anyway 15:04 ThomasMonroe_ ah ok 15:04 ThomasMonroe_ makes sense 15:04 Zeno` There is no animosity... I just need to break free 15:04 Zeno` if that makes sense 15:05 Zeno` I mean it's a good project, but it hasn't interested me all that much for quite a while. I feel it's stagnated somewhat as well 15:05 ThomasMonroe_ i understand 15:22 Fixer Zeno`: thanks for your contributions 15:24 Zeno` you're welcome. And thank you 15:25 KaadmY How do you report people on the forums 15:25 KaadmY Someone sent me a massive PM regarding OC, said he sent it to everyone 15:25 Zeno` send me a copy ;) 15:26 KaadmY What's your forum name? 15:26 Zeno` I dunno 15:26 Zeno` Zeno` I think 15:26 KaadmY :P 15:28 Zeno` maybe just Zeno 15:28 Zeno` it's been so long lol 15:28 KaadmY Yeah it's "Zeno" 15:36 Fixer if only more server owners used blockless protection... 15:36 lisac Fixer, the advertiser inside me is screaming 'Craigs server uses areas mod!' 15:36 Fixer lisac: yeah, i know 15:37 lisac Hey KaadmY can I get a copy of that PM? Name's lisacvuk 15:37 Zeno` btw KaadmY, CBS in most certainly NOT interest in OC's ravings 15:37 Zeno` (I have spoken to them) 15:38 KaadmY Heh 15:38 KaadmY Dunno why he sent it to me though 15:38 Zeno` wow 15:38 KaadmY I assume he sent it to other people too 15:39 lisac KaadmY, maybe he saw your PR 15:39 KaadmY Other people have PRs too though 15:39 Zeno` oh, the guy (OC) is insane. He doesn't need reasons 15:39 KaadmY Seems strange especially since I'm pretty unknown 15:40 KaadmY Also I really don't care 15:48 cx384 DS-minetest got this PM, too. 15:50 cx384 title = "Reality and Conscience series" right? 16:03 ThomasMonroe_ everyone got it 16:45 Fixer VanessaE: https://i.imgur.com/Sa2Ky9I.png 16:49 Sokomine always surprising that things don't work if you give another variable the same name :/ other languages would have told about such errors :( 16:51 Sokomine oh. bad to hear, zeno. but hope you'll have fun developing your own game. and hope you'll stay here as a listener or come back later on :-) 16:54 Sokomine very sad how things developped with oldcoder 17:03 ThomasMonroe_ yes it is 17:11 Fixer VanessaE: have you moved to tree grow via sapling on dreamb? 17:11 VanessaE I don't remember. 17:11 Sokomine afaik dreambuilder only places saplings at mapgen time and later grows them via abm? 17:11 Sokomine or is that info outdated? 17:12 VanessaE oh and yeah I know about that error 17:12 VanessaE you can configure moretrees to use saplings though, there's a file for that. 17:13 VanessaE should be moretrees_settings.txt in the world dir. 17:13 VanessaE as for Oldcoder, he can go to hell. 17:13 Sokomine i'd love my trees lib to be used more :-) it would be very practical for tree-like things. it does all the registering of the nodes involved, does the growing of saplings into trees...but does not place anything at mapgen time 17:13 Sokomine once i find time i need to adjust it to the new lbm tree growing method in default 17:14 VanessaE also, good afternoon all. 17:24 Sokomine hi :-) 17:24 Sokomine good...evening 17:26 Shara What an eventful day 17:26 Shara Hi all 17:27 Sokomine oh? did something happen which i missed? 17:27 VanessaE what events? 17:29 Shara Zeno and the things about PMs... 17:29 VanessaE oh that shit again 17:29 Shara Kind of why I left it at that 17:30 Sokomine oh yes. hoped it was just zeno getting intrested more in other projects and comming back again later 17:30 Shara Sounds like Zeno is pretty much done to me :( 17:30 Fixer kaeza: kebab 17:31 Fixer gonna make a move 17:32 Fixer VanessaE: where are animals in dreambuilder? 17:32 VanessaE the carbone_mobs mod. 17:32 VanessaE sheep, rats, some underground monsters 17:33 Fixer VanessaE: i'm walking for like 30 min, still no sheep 17:33 VanessaE been meaning to give mobs_redo a try sometime 17:33 VanessaE but I'm kinda burnt out 17:33 Fixer VanessaE: trying out GC64 build, no OOM for 20 min yetg 17:34 Fixer VanessaE: for 40 min* 17:34 Fixer VanessaE: this is big 17:34 VanessaE good luck 17:36 Fixer usually it is 5-10 min and OOM 17:36 Fixer 40 min - no oom 17:36 Fixer GC64 is doing 17:36 Fixer same for that 2.5gb mem code, doing 17:36 Fixer worldedit - doing 17:37 Sokomine sounds fine, fixer 17:37 Fixer very fine 17:37 Fixer OOM were worst problems for me 17:38 Sokomine VanessaE: mobs_redo seems to do fine on many servers. some mobs are nice. i don't like the way breeding is done, with mobs spreading hearts when fed 17:39 VanessaE maybe that can be turned off? *shrug* 17:39 Shara mobs_redo mostly works well for me 17:39 Manzano_ burnt out VanessaE? does it taste like chiken 17:40 CWz Anyway, mobs redo is split into 3 mods. 17:40 VanessaE "it tastes like.... despair." 17:41 * Sokomine hands VanessaE a deliscious piece of cheese cake that can be very good for the mood 17:41 CWz What? Burnt VanessaE tastes like this pear? 17:41 Shara CWz: 3? 17:41 CWz Hmm 4 perhaps 17:41 * Sokomine turns lava into a variant that doesn't burn 17:42 CWz We need frostbite in minetest 17:42 Sokomine could be, yes. some mobs are split into packages. which is fine. not all hostile creatures are desired in all worlds 17:43 Sokomine standing on ice without footwear might be quite cold, yes :-) 17:44 CWz Mobs_redo is great lots of thirdparty mobs 17:44 VanessaE but seriously, between this oldcoder bullshit and my just plain being tired, Minetest is kinda "meh" for me right now, guys. sorry :( 17:44 Sokomine some mobs have very nice models 17:44 Shara mobs_redo is only one mod, but then you add mods for the actual monsters 17:45 Shara So you end up with how ever many mods to get whatever you want 17:45 Shara I think DarkLands has 6 or 7 mobs mods total for example. 17:47 Sokomine there are many cute mods, i.e. the penguins. the cows have a better (smaller) size than in the animals modpack 17:47 Sokomine many wool providers roam the world, waiting for players to right-click them with shears 17:47 Shara I'm just sad the nssm mob models are so ridiculously huge 18:26 IhrFussel Just had someone joining my server JUST to tell the people to join another server...and it was not the first time someone told my players to visit that server, I feel like the admin there is desperate for players 18:27 Shara Fussel, I've had players do that when I know the admin is against them doing it as well. 18:27 Shara It can work both ways 18:28 IhrFussel Not sure what benefits the players would have if the admin is against it 18:28 Shara If the player has high privs there but the server is empty. 18:28 Shara I've seen that before 18:29 IhrFussel The reason I'm sharing it here is cause I wanna know if another server owner recently had a player named something like "homt[number]" or "homthack" telling players to join "shiningmoon" 18:29 Shara Also had someone spam-advertising Xanadu once, and I know full well Ten didn't ask them to. 18:30 Shara Name doesn't show on today's logs at least for me 18:31 IhrFussel Nah doesn't have to be today, last time he joined was a week ago...but the pattern is always the same: join -> tell [random player(s)] to join the shiningmoon -> leave 18:32 Shara Nothing at all for "shiningmoon" 18:32 Shara Though I only checked the IRC logs, not the full server logs. 18:32 IhrFussel The ingame chat log would be more helpful xP 18:35 IhrFussel Shiningmoon is a minetesthosting server lol? (25/07/17 19:56:36) [Heircope1]: Turtle and Shara MerleManga join the Shiningmoon put minetesthosting.com and port 30533 please 18:36 Shara ... 18:36 Shara It's Faker 18:36 Shara Check the IP address really. 18:36 IhrFussel Yes it is him but I wanna know WHY he continues to advertise that server 18:36 Shara Why does he do anything? 18:37 IhrFussel He makes my players curious when he says that so he kinda damages my business 18:37 Shara Trying to understand Faker will earn you nothing but a headache. 18:37 Shara I tried, but I could never get any sense out of him. 18:38 Shara I mean, why did he pretend to be me, get full privs on two servers, then do nothing but make multiple accounts to also give full privs to and change the signs at spawn? 18:40 IhrFussel He doesn't seem "dangerous" but "retarted" 18:40 Fixer IhrFussel: "tell the people to join another server", just ban those guys, if it is clearly advertising, and if it is against the rules, I've seen this in other games too 18:40 Shara FUssel: yup, same assessment 18:40 IhrFussel I mean anyone really malicious would've caused A LOT of trouble with such privs...and all he does is changing signs? 18:41 Shara Banning him never works unless you want to ban his whole ISP/country 18:41 Shara He's also posted videos on youtube before that were just him running about and lots of interference. 18:42 IhrFussel Fixer, unfortunately many countries/ISPs still give out dynamic IPs which means a ban won't do a thing 18:42 Fixer IhrFussel: then write a simple mod that detects links and prevent them to show 18:42 Shara I just learned to identify him right away from what he says (as you saw today) 18:43 Shara Fixer, why would it be a link? 18:43 Fixer Shara: detect any kind of advertisement via lua and just kick such players 18:44 IhrFussel It's not a link just the name of the server mostly...I could ban the server name and "minetesthosting.com" and "[port]" 18:44 Shara And if he says "join shiningmoon" or "come to shiningmoon"? 18:46 Fixer Shara: detect join and shiningmoon -> kick 18:46 Shara Fixer: there's so many variations. 18:51 IhrFussel also if players realize "shiningmoon" is banned they will find other spelling options like sh!ningmoon, shiningm00n, s h i n i n g m o o n etc etc 18:51 Sokomine IhrFussel: i always thought such players that just join to advertise other servers are very young children who hope to get more players on their server 18:52 Sokomine Shara: i met a fake vanessae on maikaumines mineclone2 server recently. then later on there was a vanessac. didn't even do much at all. the faking of the name thus remains a mystery 18:52 Sokomine probably very very young 18:54 Sokomine in general i do like the attitide on mt servers. server owners are aware that there are other servers, and players may talk about those other servers instead of pretending there's nothing else in the world 18:54 IhrFussel Sokomine, the actual problem is not the faking but the fact that many (young) server owners simply BELIEVE that they are the real persons and grant them privs 18:55 Sokomine that's a problem, yes. i always check on irc if unsure 18:55 IhrFussel And the guy who advertises the server doesn't seem to be that young 18:56 Sokomine we could write it in a guide for new server owners. explain to them that any name can be taken and that there's no global namespace for mt players 18:56 Sokomine doesn't seem particulary grown up to me if all he does is join other servers to advertise for his favorite 18:58 Shara Faker isn't an idiot, and I have seen him pull off a few tricky exploits. 18:58 IhrFussel Advertising on a completely different server usually makes no sense because the server you advertise for will NOT be what the players on server X look for 18:58 Shara Including realising when there is no longer a player account for a protected area, then registering the name to take control of it (...and place more weird signs) 18:58 Sokomine maybe a line like "if you meet someone with a name you know from elsewhere on a server, use other channels (i.e. where you know that person from) to confirm identity" 18:59 Shara Sokomine: It's good advice of course, but then you have to make sure a new server owner reads it... 18:59 Sokomine no. advertising for a particulary server only makes sense if a player expresses intrest in something and that particular something is covered better on another server 19:00 Sokomine Shara: i don't see how we can do more 19:00 Shara I dont' expect anyone to. Nothing is going to compensate for a lack of experience 19:01 IhrFussel The best solution would be universal accounts, but I know the devs are largely against it 19:01 Sokomine a list of hints/faq would help. do we have such a thing? linked directly on the main page, as sticky topic in the server forum part...don't know if such a thing exists 19:02 Sokomine that's right. that would solve the problem but be against the spirit of mt 19:02 IhrFussel One account for all servers but also not being banned on every server if one server bans you...just so that no one else can take your name on any server 19:03 rubenwardy !g starting a server site:wiki.minetest.net 19:03 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Setting up a server/Debian - Minetest Wiki - These instructions have been tested in Debian Jessie ("Testing" as of January 2015) which includes a minetest-server package. A simple Minetest server can be started in any Debian (Ubuntu, Linux Mint or derivative distribution) that has the minetest package by going to its "Server" tab... (8 more messages) 19:03 rubenwardy http://wiki.minetest.net/Setting_up_a_server 19:03 Sokomine ah, thanks, rubenwardy 19:03 lumidify IhrFussel: But then someone would need to maintain the infrastructure needed to have centralised accounts. 19:03 IhrFussel It would be extremely difficult to even implement such global accounts...and it would require a master server with GOOD performance to handle all those requests 19:03 rubenwardy in particular, there's a protecting the server section 19:03 rubenwardy IhrFussel, nah not really 19:04 rubenwardy it would be difficult syncronising 19:04 rubenwardy ie: as we already have a ton of accounts 19:04 Shara Problem is getting new server owners to read that. (Hint: more often than not, they won't) 19:04 rubenwardy actually 19:05 rubenwardy I didn't consider actually implementing it in Minetest, that would be the hardest part to do right 19:05 rubenwardy the master server bit is fairly easy 19:05 Shara Ugh, and seriously.. I can't even look at that page without the editor in me screaming. 19:05 Shara Who to see for a wiki account? 19:05 rubenwardy Calinou, 19:05 Sokomine rubenwardy: the page does not seem to address that problem. protection mods, fire and tnt are handled - that's good. the social aspects do not seem to be covered. more the technical ones. in a way a server is more demanding regarding the social interaction than anything... 19:06 rubenwardy Sokomine, I was saying that's the page to add any such things 19:06 Sokomine ah. shara got intrested :-) that's good for the page 19:06 Shara I'm willing to write something.... if I can get the good ahead to rewrite parts of that page related to this 19:06 Shara go ahead* 19:06 Sokomine sounds good :-) now you only need to get an account to edit the wiki 19:07 IhrFussel MAYBE it would be useful to add hint messages while loading a server...many online games do that 19:07 Shara That's usually for players, not server owners 19:07 Sokomine hardware requirements and mods recommended might also be an intresting point 19:09 Calinou hi rubenwardy :P 19:09 Calinou Shara: PM me your email address and desired username, for getting a wiki account 19:09 Shara How to recommend mods though? I mean, how to even get a mod onto the wiki mod list unless you self-promote? 19:09 IhrFussel Shara, but usually server owners also play on their server so they would see the messages either way 19:10 Sokomine hm, that might indeed be tricky. there's already the areas mod mentionned. that's good 19:10 Shara Still not appropriate to direct guidance specifically for a server owner into something for players 19:10 Sokomine ah. /spawn is something servers need 19:10 IhrFussel The problem is MT is kinda both...a client and server 19:11 Sokomine metionning something like inbox also couldn't hurt 19:11 Sokomine trading/shop/money mods 19:11 lumidify If you're going to add anything about hardware requirements, you could also add some average bandwidth measurements (just bringing up the question I asked earlier). 19:11 Sokomine but maybe that's too advanced already 19:12 Sokomine /spawn definitely needs to get mentionned 19:13 IhrFussel Sokomine, do you mean hardware requirements for servers? Cause that won't work, it totally depends on the amount of mods the server owner wants to run and the type of mods 19:13 Shara What Fussel said. 19:13 lisac celeron55, I'm sorry to bother you, but could you please move my mod to release? I placed it on the move thread a month ago 19:14 IhrFussel A server with 10 heavy mods will likely lag more than one with 20 lightweight ones 19:15 IhrFussel I'd say even a cheap Android phone could handle a MT server with just MTG with almost no lag 19:15 tenplus1 hi folks 19:16 Sokomine ihrfussel: i know that it's not easy and depends a lot on circumstances. listing some examples - i.e. a very low-performance server like a raspberry ("keep the amount of mods low"), a medium server with a few players, and a high-end server willing to serve 20+ players and running mesecons, technic, and whatever. just very rough information 19:16 IhrFussel Well...it could probably help a few average joe's 19:17 Sokomine IhrFussel: i've such a one. as long as the device has sufficient ram, it works nicely as a client. technicly it could probably run a server, but if you'd want that... 19:17 IhrFussel joes* 19:17 Sokomine hi ten 19:17 IhrFussel hello tenplus1 19:17 tenplus1 o/ :P 19:17 tenplus1 how's things 19:17 Sokomine yes. just so that people get a general, broad idea 19:18 tenplus1 hi soko 19:19 Shara Hi Ten 19:19 tenplus1 hey Shara 19:19 IhrFussel MT Android as a client needs ~ 50 MB RAM (with no extra mods) ... any phone today should be able to run it, but if we talk connecting to servers....the RAM requirements range from 10 - 3000 MB I'd say 19:20 Sokomine it wasn't much fun with a very cheap tablet with just 0.5 gb ram. 1 gb ram was fine 19:21 IhrFussel 512 MB phone has no chance on my server...will crash before joining ... I think my server needs ~ 700 19:21 Sokomine such things might be of intrest to hopeful new server owners as well. if they want to run a small server for a couple of friends who plan to join with their tablets the needs will be diffrent than for other servers 19:21 Shara Well, I can't do much about hardware requirements (I don't know enough), but I can add some general guidelines. 19:22 Shara Like not typing /grant all on random strangers who happened to use a well known name :) 19:22 Sokomine the general guidelines will be fine :-) just throwing in some ideas (as long as i don't have to do the work it's easy to have ideas :)) 19:23 Shara Feel free to make a list and send my way then 19:25 IhrFussel You should probably also explain why many players have this name pattern "[A-Z][a-z]{1,}[0-9]{3,4}" 19:25 IhrFussel Cause too many server owners seem to think those are bots 19:26 Shara I don't understand why they think it. 19:27 IhrFussel Cause often it's the exact same name just with another number 19:27 IhrFussel And I gotta say the names DO look computer generated 19:28 tenplus1 we ban names with too many numbers, beginning with guest or sara xxxx and swears 19:29 IhrFussel The app devs were clever when they changed the guest pattern from "GuestXXXX" to this cause it is nearly impossible to track down every possible name 19:29 rubenwardy that regex helps, even when there's false positives 19:30 rubenwardy also, relevant: https://xkcd.com/810/ 19:30 IhrFussel Nah that regex would lock out a LOT of players not connecting from apps 19:30 IhrFussel You decided to count them as "guests" in the server list which is mainly why the servers JUMP so much 19:31 tenplus1 hi ruben 19:31 IhrFussel The whole server list algorithm is out of control IMO 19:32 rubenwardy hi tenplus1 19:33 tenplus1 o/ 19:33 IhrFussel I did the test and added an ingame script that checked my server position in the list every few minutes...and sometimes it jumped from 16th to 5th place in a matter of minutes...and then from 2nd to 25th place 19:33 IhrFussel Is that what you call normal? 19:34 tenplus1 all depends on users, max users, uptime, latency/lag 19:34 Fixer IhrFussel: names are comp generated, players are real 19:34 IhrFussel tenplus1, the servers did NOT jump like that last year 19:35 tenplus1 I think the rating system was changed 19:35 CalebDavis hi ten i am starting work on a subgame :) 19:35 tenplus1 hi Caleb... kewl 19:35 IhrFussel It because the server list algorithm now counts any of those A-Za-z0-9 names "guests" and only gives them 1/8 points 19:36 IhrFussel So there are WAYYYYYY more guests now on servers than before 19:37 IhrFussel And the worst part is it is not something the server owner can actually control (unless they implement this extreme regex) 19:37 rubenwardy this tool tells you why you get a score: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/6d6882db0cbe1b5b24be 19:37 rubenwardy it may be out of date though 19:37 rubenwardy but it's easy to update 19:37 rubenwardy literally copy and paste code from the master server list 19:38 IhrFussel rubenwardy, I updated and used that script if it's the one you once told me...the main reason why the servers jump so much is simply because too many guests play now on servers and cause this unstable behavior 19:39 rubenwardy looks like the only thing they changed in the algorithm was the guest -> any prefix 19:39 rubenwardy yeah 19:39 IhrFussel Yes so if a server has 5 "real" players and 10 "guests" it will be low in the list likely 19:41 IhrFussel Fact is: In the past (before app devs changed guest names to those patterns) there were hardly any guests on servers ... now it's the complete opposite 19:45 IhrFussel I'm guessing the app devs thought "many servers don't allow empty names and our app users will not be able to play -> they think the app is broken -> delete app" so they made it so the app auto-assigns a name to prevent the "empty name" error 19:46 Shara It is kind of annoying to be ranked down because of which people happen to join my server. 19:47 IhrFussel Shara, yes EXACTLY 19:47 tenplus1 I'd remove the guest filter from ranking... a player is a player afterall 19:47 Shara A lot of these players actually build things.. and I have had some stick around a really long time 19:48 Shara I mean, sure, I could ban all that fit that pattern, but I don't think it's fair to 19:48 IhrFussel One of those players is actually a helper on my server (or was one and became too inactive) ... they are people like us with the difference that they simply did NOT enter a name before connecting 19:49 Shara In some cases, I think they do enter a name but the app forces a number on the end unless you play 19:49 IhrFussel I really don't think it's fair to see them as guests...there are no guests in MT, anyone who connects for the first time gets an account 19:49 Shara I've had players who had both "name" and "name-numbers" user names they play under depending on where they connect from 19:50 IhrFussel Under "guest" I understand something that DELETES itself after the player left 19:51 tenplus1 the no_guest mod asks them to choose another player name if it starts with guest or has too many numbers after it 19:52 IhrFussel tenplus1, the "GuestXXXX" or "[0-9]" rules are deprecated...the app devs use very random names now because they KNOW server owners will not be able to block them 100% WITHOUT having false positives 19:53 Fixer IhrFussel: Elisabeth666 is better than Guest666 19:53 tenplus1 +1 ... also hi fixer 19:53 Fixer or capecuppuppyhitler 19:53 Fixer hi 19:53 tenplus1 hi behalebabo 19:53 behalebabo hello 19:54 IhrFussel But I doubt we can convince the devs to remove the "guest penalty" code 19:54 IhrFussel Another option would be to add an array with all known prefixes without the numbers and check against that array...but that will be cumbersome and slow 19:56 Shara Just don't see the need of it myself - a player is a player, as you said. But it's also not a hugely bad thing if servers move up and down the list a lot (gets exposure for more servers) 19:56 Fixer you all just overzealous :} 19:57 IhrFussel Fixer, do you think it's a good thing when your server jumps places in the server list WITHOUT you having any control over it? 19:57 tenplus1 hi thomas 19:57 ThomasMonroe hi ten 19:58 IhrFussel It just takes a few app users to bring down your server 10+ places 19:58 IhrFussel This is extremely stupid sorry 19:58 Fixer IhrFussel: i've heared some discussion about this on IRC, there is algorithm, i think you can find it here https://github.com/minetest/master-server 19:59 IhrFussel Fixer, dude that algorithm is what we are talking about...the "guests code" is deprecated 19:59 Fixer IhrFussel: yep 19:59 Fixer IhrFussel: if you have some suggestions, open an issue over there 20:00 IhrFussel You cannot simply say all [A-Z][a-z]{1,}[0-9]{3,4} players are "guests" this is wrong...that means there are 50+% GUESTS on a server 20:00 tenplus1 hi tumeni 20:01 Fixer IhrFussel: nobody cares, guest = player 20:01 tumeninodes howdy tenplus1 20:01 tumeninodes hi fixer 20:01 IhrFussel But guests only get 1/8 point in the server list and "real" players get 1.0 points 20:01 Fixer hello 20:01 Fixer IhrFussel: hmmmm, then algorithm should be altered 20:02 Fixer IhrFussel: open an issue about that 20:03 IhrFussel The devs will close it shortly after 20:03 IhrFussel Nothing against any core dev personally, but they can be super stubborn about something 20:05 ThomasMonroe i agree there 20:06 IhrFussel I feel like IF they would agree with us, they would have removed that code instead of updating it 20:07 IhrFussel I can try to open an issue about it...there's nothing to lose I guess 20:12 Fixer https://techreport.com/news/32362/amd-confirms-linux-performance-marginality-problem-on-ryzen 20:13 tumeninodes na ah 20:13 tenplus1 eek 20:14 tumeninodes AMD needs to fix that :P 20:14 tenplus1 thankfully bios updates shoudl fix thid 20:15 rubenwardy maybe see what sfan5 thinks 20:16 IhrFussel https://github.com/minetest/master-server/issues/17 20:19 Fixer IhrFussel: +1 -ed 20:19 sfan5 IhrFussel: the point of the ordering code is to move high-quality servers to the top 20:19 sfan5 quality of a server is also determined by its players 20:19 tenplus1 +1 20:19 tenplus1 hi sfan 20:20 sfan5 players using these kinds of mobile apps are lower-quality which is why they award less "points" 20:20 tumeninodes hehe low quality mobile app kids :P 20:20 sfan5 they are "lower-quality" due to their limited abilities (which are simply do to how controls work on android) 20:21 Fixer sfan5: but your stats show that 90% are lowquality anyway %) 20:22 IhrFussel sfan5, this is kind of racist to say...mobile users are NOT automatically "low quality" how could you even think that?! 20:23 IhrFussel I bet there are mobile users out there that build better than most PC users ever could 20:24 tumeninodes does quality have any relation to popularity? I'm trying to understand the ratings and listing placement method 20:24 sfan5 i wasn't denying that 20:25 Shara I have builds on my server by mobile users while are extremely high quality. 20:25 IhrFussel sfan5, the guest code makes no sense anymore...it sounds silly to say that 50% of players on server X are "guests" ... and I also don't think mobile users SHOULD be called "guests" by default 20:26 Shara Mobile player just seems more likely to mean younger player. 20:27 CWz Shara, ya sure they're mobile? 20:27 sfan5 it's just a fact that the majority of mobile players are low-quality because they are just kids wanting to "play the game" without much regard towards complicated rules, long-term engagements or expert building 20:27 CWz i can't imagine anyone being able to build anything using a mobile device 20:28 sfan5 this applies even more so to players who didn't change the default name given to them 20:28 IhrFussel Younger != less mature 20:28 sfan5 IhrFussel: it means exactly that in the vast majority of cases 20:28 tumeninodes younger = PGI (parental guidance impaired) 20:28 IhrFussel I was once a MOBILE user...and I managed my server via a PHONE ... did that make me younger or dumber? 20:29 Shara CWz: Not sure if you ever noticed him, but the player that comes to mind was Mohawk. He used multicraft to play 20:29 IhrFussel sfan5, the definition of a "guest account" is NOT what Minetest "guest" accounts are...read my 3rd point again in the issue please in case you didn't yet 20:29 sfan5 concering 2: i don't see how this is a problem; concerning 3: the code calls them "guest" because that is what their name used to be 20:30 Shara He built a huge castle, including working mesecons oors and ships 20:30 sfan5 other than the comment in the source code nobody else is calling them "guests" 20:30 Shara doors* 20:30 IhrFussel It doesn't matter what they are called...a guest account is NOT PERSISTENT 20:30 sfan5 are you really complaing about the code comments calling them "guest" instead of "low-quality"? 20:30 IhrFussel But the "guest" accounts on MT servers ARE persistent 20:30 Shara And Fussel, I didn't say younger means anything other than younger. It was an observation. 20:31 Calinou playing 3D games on mobile is, most of the time, a novelty 20:31 Calinou which is why not a lot of serious, mature people do it 20:31 tenplus1 nite folks :P 20:31 Fixer #PCMASTERRACE 20:31 Calinou sometimes I play GZDoom on my phone, it doesn't mean I do that daily 20:31 sfan5 besides it says guest in quotes for exactly that reason, they are not real guests 20:31 tumeninodes nite 10+1 20:32 Shara sfan5: I think the issue is how much it affects placement on the server list. 20:32 IhrFussel sfan5, you don't get my point...either remove the whole "guest" stuff OR make guest accounts really non-persistent (which will make MOST app users sad since they need to start over each time again) 20:32 sfan5 you don't get my point 20:33 IhrFussel There are THREE points I mention...and I want to see a reply from core devs for all 3 points 20:33 sfan5 "guest" is just how it's called because of historic reasons, nobody is claiming that those are "real" guest account 20:33 Fixer Shara: to play 3d games on phone, you have two be mazohistic enough 20:33 Fixer to be* 20:33 Shara Fixer: In some cases it's the only option people have 20:34 IhrFussel sfan5, calling all players with such prefix names "low-quality" is an insult 20:34 Fixer guest is just for people who forgot to type the name, guest is still a player and penalazing because of legacy "guest" smth is weird 20:34 sfan5 IhrFussel: no, it's a fact 20:34 sfan5 that obviously doesn't apply to all, but the majority of these mobile players 20:35 IhrFussel And low-quality users shouldn't have the same rights as normal users...that is what you want to tell me 20:35 Fixer i never knew we have pcmasterrace kind of server listing 20:36 tumeninodes should be based on popularity, would make more sense wouldn't it? 20:36 sfan5 the sorting is supposed to find high-quality servers with high-quality players, "all players are equal" is not supposed to apply 20:36 IhrFussel sfan5, face the fact that MT is essentially a home for MOBILE players now...counting 90% of players "low-quality" and "guests" is ridiculous 20:37 Fixer IhrFussel: no it is just gameplay on phone is horrible, and people who use it are young kids without even a proper PC building box houses, it is fact, does not mean they are retarded, they are kids, some of them will be nice builders on PC eventually, some will abandon the game 20:37 tumeninodes that way the high quality players know to just scroll to the bottom ; ) 20:37 Shara sfan5: Hmm, since when did which players connect to my server decide its quality? 20:37 sfan5 IhrFussel: this does not apply to ALL mobile players 20:37 Shara My server is lower quality because I don't ban app users? 20:37 sfan5 Shara: not necessarily 20:38 IhrFussel sfan5, it applies to almost all mobile players since barely anyone uses the OFFICIAL app 20:38 sfan5 IhrFussel: no 20:39 Shara Of course it's not. My server's quality is decided by how well I maintain it, how well my team runs it, and whether players show up or not. 20:39 sfan5 the official app is not the only one that allows setting your nickname 20:39 Shara If those players are app users, then so long as they follow my rules (and I ban them if they don't) they are good players. 20:39 Fixer official up is 0.4.15 on fdroid at least btw (trollface) 20:40 IhrFussel I TOTALLY agree with Shara ... you core devs don't seem to fully understand what it means to a server owner who WORKS HARD for his server to hear that his server is "low-quality" JUST because he/she allows mobile users on it! 20:40 Fixer Shara: from PCmasterrace point of view, when you join server with tons of mobile app users you have - 95% ugly as f--- architecture, MOM/DAD/GIVEME1BLOCKOFDIRT/CRYING etc :) 20:41 sfan5 i am not saying your server is low-quality wtf 20:41 Fixer IhrFussel: +1 20:41 IhrFussel YOU DO 20:41 sfan5 nah 20:41 Shara Fussel, in fainress, finding a fair method isn't exactly easy either. 20:41 IhrFussel Because you say if the server has many prefix-users it counts as low-quality 20:41 rubenwardy he's saying that the players are 20:41 Fixer if we have 90% of mobile, most of servers are penalazied anyway 20:41 tumeninodes If it went by popularity, this is where most of those young mobile users will go for 2 reasons, 1. it's popular and 2. it's at the top of the list and easiest & quickest choice, the higher quality, better maintained servers would be further down, this is where the higher quality players will go because they will have the patience to scroll down 20:41 sfan5 Fixer: it still doesn't apply to ALL mobile players 20:41 rubenwardy oh, I guess that's a point 20:42 Shara tumeninodes: that doesn't work in practice. 20:42 Fixer sfan5: yeah, but server itself can be good, yet it penalazied, because ... mobile. 20:42 twoelk sfan5 the term guests is indeed a historic term in minetest - so historic that it is totaly out of date with the current quality of mobile apps and players as far as I have observed 20:42 Shara I can get about ten players online, all well established PC players.. and my server is up in the top 10 or top 5.. then the app users flood in 20:43 IhrFussel You essentially FORCE server owners to add that stupid regex to lock out mobile users with those apps in order for their server to have a chance to get a HIGHER RANK in the list 20:43 sfan5 Fixer: which makes perfect sense as you described yourself 20:43 Fixer sfan5: #PCMASTERRACE 20:43 Fixer #LINUXMASTERRACE 20:43 sfan5 a servers quality is not solely determined by the players, but they play an important role 20:44 Fixer i have no idea we had that kind of sorting, /scrolls down 20:44 Shara It's also normal for the app users to be fairly quiet 20:44 Shara So they don't exactly cause problems in chat 20:44 IhrFussel And you say a player's build/play quality can be determined from the player name 20:44 sfan5 the player name gives a hint yes 20:44 Fixer Shara: they do 20:44 IhrFussel I diagree with that...the name does NOT tell you ANYTHING about the person behind it 20:44 Fixer Shara: just go to Hometown :) 20:45 tumeninodes Shara, if your server is within the top 10 it is susceptible to those users 20:45 Fixer Shara: big kindergarten 20:45 Shara Fixer: hometown might need some more moderators then? 20:45 twoelk can't the impact guest-like accounts have on the rating be simply lowered somewhat? 20:45 Fixer Shara: they allow roleplay though iirc 20:45 Fixer and if it is allowed... chat is ----ed 20:46 Shara Yea, well, I won't spend long on servers with that mommy/daddy stuff 20:46 Shara And if you choose to.. well, you choose to. 20:46 IhrFussel How about you give "guests/low-quality users" at least 4/8 points instead of 1/8 ... that would be an idea 20:46 tumeninodes why mommy? 20:46 Fixer tumeninodes: MOM 20:46 sfan5 IhrFussel: are you saying Scudder713 is as likely as Pie-jacker to become a long-term player on my server who builds good looking buildings? 20:46 tumeninodes hehe 20:46 Shara "who will be my mommy" "can i be baby" "blahblahblah" 20:46 sfan5 protip: if you say yes you're wrong 20:46 Shara ANd other nonsense. 20:47 sfan5 before you answer "but you don't know for sure": it's not about that, it's about probability 20:47 IhrFussel sfan5, are you REALLY trying to see if the player will like your server and play regularly on it or not JUST from the player name??? 20:47 sfan5 yes because that is how statistics and correlation works 20:47 Shara sfan5: All I will say is take a moment to look at the list of people in this channel... sniper there, with his three numbers and all, is the only person to date that I have allowed to host a public server for me. 20:48 sfan5 Shara: his name doesn't match the regex 20:48 Fixer sfan5: or do other way, add capability to disallow conecting of mobile clients to server, and sort list just by players, server owners of PRO servers will just ban android/whatever %) 20:48 Shara Name + three numbers seems to be the app pattern though? 20:48 Fixer Hometown Pro (tm)(r), featuring PC players only, 21+ 20:48 sfan5 Uppercase name plus 3-4 numbers 20:48 Fixer Sadie 20:48 sfan5 Fixer: it's not elitism, it's quality control 20:49 Shara It would be quality control if you were rating players perhaps, not when you are rating servers 20:49 sfan5 it might make sense to penalize servers for ""mobile guests"" less, but removing this restriction entirely is just stupid 20:50 Shara Well, as I said earlier, I'm not complteely against so much movement in the server list 20:50 Shara completely* 20:50 Shara Because it does help more servers get some time at the top. 20:50 rubenwardy how many guest names tend to be productive, and how many tend to wander around doing nothing? 20:50 tumeninodes I'm gonna host a 21+ server, you have to be intoxicated to play :P drunktest 20:51 Shara At a glance, I only see 21 servers right now that have 5 or more players connected anyway... 20:51 IhrFussel Such extreme jumps are too much ... rubenwardy you cannot simply say "oh this player has a predetermined name it will not stay or build well" ... that is not how it works...maybe in STATSISTICS but not in real-performance 20:51 Fixer sfan5: but is it really working? (that algorithm), i wonder how it looks with and without it 20:52 rubenwardy IhrFussel, that is literally how probability works though 20:52 sfan5 Fixer: how do you determine whether it "works"? 20:52 Shara One danger(?) if you change it, is that only servers that allow and support very high numbers of players will ever be able to get to the top 20:52 Fixer sfan5: compare list with penalization and without 20:52 rubenwardy I should probably not get involved 20:52 sfan5 and how do you see whether it "works"? 20:52 sfan5 one example btw: just test, 30players but pretty low on the list 20:53 IhrFussel rubenwardy, you shouldn't use probability in the server list or AT LEAST make the difference smaller...like I said I'd be happy if the penalty was 4/8 instead of 1/8 20:53 Fixer sfan5: my theory is, there are 90% of mobile, they will outwheight 10% anyway even with 4/8 1/8 thing 20:53 sfan5 Fixer: that's true 20:53 sfan5 it's not about ignoring mobile 20:53 sfan5 it's about giving then less weight 20:54 sfan5 them* 20:54 Shara I've actually seen situations where my two servers have been in the top three together, with both around the 18 players online mark. But servers that get 30 players aren't necessarily better than mine. They just simply allow more players. 20:54 Shara But a server that never has more than 1 or 2 players? Well yes, it's safe to assume that's not as good as any that often have 10+... 20:55 Fixer sfan5: you may as well penalaze those servers without passwords, those are evil :trollface: 20:55 Shara Just that at some point the number of players may stop being an indication of server quality completely. 20:56 Fixer here is part of code: https://github.com/minetest/master-server/blob/master/server.py#L295 20:56 Fixer it is damn complicated 20:56 rubenwardy this tool tells you why you get a score: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/6d6882db0cbe1b5b24be 20:56 * twoelk knows quite a few wonderfull servers with normaly only few players online at the same time 20:56 Fixer f--- 20:56 rubenwardy it's missing the guest -> [A-Z][a-z]+ change though 20:57 Fixer rubenwardy: python3 compatible? 20:57 sfan5 rubenwardy: the regex is more complicated than that 20:57 rubenwardy yes 20:57 rubenwardy sfan5, I guessed, it was more pseudocode 20:58 rubenwardy updated that script to include the guest -> Aaaaa123 change 20:59 Fixer ckkk 20:59 rubenwardy updated again 20:59 Fixer python is not in win path? 21:00 Fixer rubenwardy: AttributeError: module 'urllib' has no attribute 'urlopen' 21:00 rubenwardy #windows 21:00 Fixer #yes 21:00 Fixer rubenwardy: please output the result 21:01 Fixer rubenwardy: to pastebin 21:01 sfan5 Fixer: the script needs python 2 21:01 Fixer ckit, just run the script and show us (somebody) 21:02 Fixer also, iirc, some distros already dropping python2 support 21:02 rubenwardy huh 21:02 rubenwardy I swear I wrote it in python3 21:02 Fixer poettering friendly distros 21:02 rubenwardy oh well 21:02 Fixer rubenwardy: pastebin.com 21:03 rubenwardy https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/4414c8553dda2857f4b0c98e2e9b55f4 21:03 rubenwardy Fixer ^ 21:04 Fixer yay 21:04 Fixer rubenwardy: thanks 21:04 rubenwardy it's odd that the sorting is slightly off 21:04 rubenwardy I just checked, and I'm using the same algorithm 21:04 rubenwardy maybe a rounding issue 21:04 sfan5 the server list uses python3 21:04 sfan5 maybe that makes a difference 21:05 sfan5 >penalty -0 21:05 sfan5 what 21:05 rubenwardy lol 21:05 sfan5 rubenwardy: your script is inaccurate since 1/8 == 0 in py2 21:05 Fixer lol 21:10 rubenwardy ok, updated to python 3 21:11 rubenwardy updated gist above 21:11 rubenwardy updated source cod 21:11 Fixer a.txt one? 21:11 rubenwardy yeah 21:11 rubenwardy both gists are now updated 21:11 rubenwardy note the a.txt one has more snippets below 21:12 Fixer just test is protector hell 21:12 sfan5 rubenwardy: shouldn't it contain guest stuff in b_pen.txt too? 21:12 rubenwardy guests are counted as penalties 21:12 rubenwardy but just less adding 21:12 rubenwardy hmmmm 21:13 sfan5 i think your script is still off somehow 21:13 sfan5 sorting doesn't match, might just be changes in the meantime tho 21:14 rubenwardy updated with guest penalty reporting 21:16 rubenwardy I'm scrolling down the list my script made, and I can't see any scores out of order 21:16 Fixer interesting 21:16 rubenwardy the order of that list is the one the server gives 21:16 rubenwardy I don't sort it 21:16 Fixer so IFS (IhrFussel's Server) is more PCMASTERRACE friendly right now? 21:16 Fixer and just test... 21:16 Fixer and free pizza 21:17 sfan5 "penalty -0.875 guests" means there was a single guest, right? 21:17 rubenwardy if that's 7/8, yes 21:17 sfan5 it is 21:17 rubenwardy !math calc 7/8 21:17 ShadowBot rubenwardy: 0.875 21:17 rubenwardy then year 21:17 rubenwardy *yeah 21:18 IhrFussel Right now I can confirm that only 1 player is connected via mobile on my server...but try it with HT 21:25 IhrFussel Again: My main problem is that servers that suddenly get many mobile users with such prefix names, are PUNISHED for something they cannot control or decide...right now the server list depends largely on RANDOMNESS 21:25 IhrFussel I'm not sure if that's the goal 21:25 sfan5 wrong 21:26 sfan5 the single most important factor is amount of players right now 21:26 sfan5 if lots of ""mobile guests"" join your server will still go up 21:26 IhrFussel But a "guest" player will not get the full score in the server list which is my point 21:28 IhrFussel And a few "guest" players vs a few "normal" players will bring the server score down nonetheless 21:29 IhrFussel You PUNISH the server owners for THAT 21:29 IhrFussel For allowing more mobile clients with prefix names 21:30 sfan5 essentially yes 21:30 sfan5 but just because you allow mobile clients doesn't mean your server can't ever get to the top 21:35 IhrFussel sfan5, you STILL punish the server owners for it...and you punish them wayy too much, that's why I suggested to lower the penalty at least if you are too stubborn to completely remove it and see mobile users the same as PC users 21:36 sfan5 like i said lowering the penalty can be discussed 21:36 Fixer rubenwardy: script is working now on python 3.5 21:38 IhrFussel I edited my issue comment to include that: https://github.com/minetest/master-server/issues/17 21:38 Fixer free pizza server o.O 21:39 Fixer just test o.O 21:39 sfan5 rubenwardy: btw the regex in your script will need another minor update 21:41 IhrFussel Changed issue title too 21:47 Fixer free pizza spawn is horribly slow 21:52 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/QEJEWOz.png 21:52 Fixer kekeke 21:52 Fixer (maybe) 21:57 rubenwardy sfan5, updated :) 21:57 sfan5 oh it logs that publicly, nice 22:05 Fixer sfan5: anticheat warnings? 22:06 Fixer are those built in? 22:06 sfan5 no