Time  Nick         Message
08:51 TenPlus1     hi folks
09:42 Krock        hi tenplus1
09:42 tenplus1     hi Krock
09:42 tenplus1     'tis quiet today :P
09:45 paramat      our dev meeting was quiet too, 1 person
09:46 tenplus1     hi paramat, did that 1 person come to any conclusions :PP
09:46 paramat      yes, "This has been waiting to be merged for a while .." :]
09:47 DS-minetest  well, the person wasn't alone, there's ShadowBot
09:47 tenplus1     which #pull ?
09:47 paramat      most of them
09:48 tenplus1     hi DS
09:49 tenplus1     wb lumidify
09:49 lumidify     Hi tenplus1
09:49 DS-minetest  hi tenplus1
09:49 tenplus1     seems Wuzzy has been on an issue spree lately
10:19 tenplus1     hi Fixer
10:22 tenplus1     Q. generic mob eggs... should these spawn animals that are tamed by default or should I leave that for eggs picked up by lasso
10:22 tenplus1     *mobs picked up by lasso already tamed
10:28 tenplus1     hi lisac
10:35 tenplus1     bbl
10:51 Krock        !tell tenplus1 A. only for eggs picket up by lasso
10:51 ShadowBot    Krock: O.K.
10:53 Fixer        *,...,*
11:04 paramat      i agree
11:24 lisac        !tell tenplus1 Hi
11:24 ShadowBot    lisac: O.K.
11:31 Shara        Hi all
11:34 Raven262     Hello Shara
11:34 Raven262     Seems that i didn't log in when i ran hexchat
11:34 Shara        Hi Raven262, how's it going?
11:34 Raven262     Good, i guess, you?
11:34 Shara        Okay I think.
11:34 Shara        Weekend goes too quickly
11:35 Raven262     Ah, i have my summer break :)
11:35 Shara        Lucky :P
11:35 Shara        I'm off study at the moment, but still work full time
11:36 Raven262     I guess that will be my future in about a year and a half :P
11:37 Shara        I'm glad I'm studying again, but on top of working it can get rough
11:38 Raven262     How do you even get time to sleep then?
11:38 Shara        Sometimes I don't?
11:38 Raven262     Damn
11:39 Shara        Thankfully I don't need much
11:40 Raven262     Well i guess 4 hours a night is enough in a five day period.
11:40 Raven262     At least that was my observation
11:41 Raven262     But after fifth day i was sleeping a half of the sixth day
11:42 Shara        It varies by person
11:42 Shara        An average person does need more though, and there is a danger you work up a sleep debt without actually noticing it
11:44 Shara        Which reminds me.. I should be picking my next classes :P
11:45 Shara        It's kind of sad to me that the classes that are meant to be about "programming" have been the most boring and useless ones for me so far
11:46 Raven262     Well i guess that if you have learned many of the things yourself, there is little more to be explored.
11:46 Shara        It's not like I'm a great programmer though.
11:46 Shara        But I can honestly say I learned more about writing code from MT so far
11:47 Raven262     Thats what i was talking about
11:47 Raven262     I myself have no experience in the area f programming but i think this applies to all of the trades.
11:47 Raven262     *of
11:49 Shara        Probably.
11:50 Shara        I have to choose three out of six possible classes.... hmmm
12:17 Fixer        "Internet users who used Photobucket for that, that is store their images so that they can embed them on other sites, were asked to pay $399 per year, or $39.99 per month, to reactivate the functionality."
12:17 Fixer        lol
12:17 Fixer        another shithost bite the dust
12:39 Fixer        COMPILE TIME
12:41 Fixer        "Ruiz apparently convinced Perez that the book would stop the bullet from a foot away. The gun, a Desert Eagle .50 caliber pistol, was not hindered by the book."
12:41 Fixer        amount of stupidity is reaching above 9000 level
12:43 Krock        so he dieded?
12:45 Fixer        yes
12:46 paramat      .5!
12:46 Fixer        the worst part? It is not Darwin Award :/
12:47 paramat      so shot by girlfriend to 'increase their followers on social media' :]
12:47 Krock        shot? http://bash.org/?574642
12:50 Fixer        darwinism screeching intensifies
12:51 Fixer        seen some MTG changes, it rised from the grave again?
12:51 Fixer        nice
12:52 Fixer        lets test if arm inertia was fixed
12:56 paramat      yes i was concentrating on engine but still have lots to do in MTG
12:57 paramat      my TODO list in either is overwhelming
12:58 tenplus1     Hi folks
12:58 Shara        Hi paramat, hi tenplus1 :)
12:58 tenplus1     hi Shara
12:59 Shara        tenplus1: generic mob eggs should NOT be tamed by default
12:59 tenplus1     kewl, thanks :D
13:00 Shara        I like to hold mini-events with players where I use them to spawn all kinds of things they can fight
13:00 Shara        And they are the easiest way to quickly spawn something for damage testing
13:00 tenplus1     will change that just now :D
13:00 Shara        That's not how it already is??
13:01 tenplus1     no, default eggs typically spawn animals that were tamed to owner...
13:01 Shara        Hmmm
13:01 tenplus1     I never really changed that... but will now :D
13:01 Shara        Maybe I am mostly using things that are not tamable then
13:01 Shara        But still, I think it's better if they are wild and free by default
13:02 Shara        Or maybe... how about.. make that a setting?
13:02 Shara        I was thinking about certain mobs I use that can be tamed, but I think they might have two eggs anyway
13:03 Shara        Anyway, I'd leave it as it is
13:03 Shara        I was thinking about it the wrong way round
13:04 tenplus1     all mobs have 2 eggs registered for them, 1 stackable which is now a RAW egg with no tamed settings, and the other one which saves mob settings inside eggs for animals that are picked up by owner
13:05 Shara        I just want to make sure that things that usually attack still attack
13:05 tenplus1     all monsters will attack... all tamed npc will attack anyone who isnt owner
13:06 tenplus1     and of course animals like cow/pig that are tamed will attack anyone NOT owner as well
13:06 Shara        But the current system works good for me. I thought you meant changing how the hostile ones behave
13:07 Shara        Any change to eggs at this point is going to mess me up
13:07 Shara        (unless you want to get rid of the non-stackable thing, which I still dislike... I honestly preferred it not saving)
13:10 tenplus1     wuzzy is on the rampage today, he's adding all sorts of issue's to mobs api: https://github.com/tenplus1/mobs_redo/issues
13:11 Fixer        yeah
13:12 Shara        catdog >.>
13:13 tenplus1     lol
13:13 Fixer        0.4.16-51104d9c-51104d9c-dirty
13:14 Fixer        now with CLOUD PR included
13:16 Fixer        fog is just wonderful here
13:21 Fixer        in clouds https://i.imgur.com/7AoNRUp.png
13:25 Fixer        TIP: to convert big areas of snow to dirt: just flood it
13:25 Fixer        removes both snow above and below
13:36 tenplus1     hi octacian
13:36 octacian     Hey tenplus1 :D
13:39 tenplus1     wb DS
13:40 DS-minetest  thanks tenplus1
13:41 Raven262     Guys, i'm having a weird issue on a server: http://i.imgur.com/97SLYA5.png
13:41 Raven262     Few trees grow like this from a sapling
13:42 tenplus1     hi raven... you using v6 worlds ?
13:42 Raven262     Yes.
13:42 Raven262     Hello tenplus1
13:42 * Raven262   forgot to say hi.
13:42 tenplus1     L-system tree's are placing them using vmanip I think and causes issues like that...  also, Hi
13:42 Raven262     So it is a known bug
13:46 tenplus1     that's why I dont use v6 maps
13:47 tenplus1     *hints* https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4425
13:59 paramat      maybe there were non-zero param2 values in those nodes before the sapling grew, then the trunk nodes took on those param2 values?
14:00 paramat      the LVM which grows the tree doesn't reset param2 values
14:08 paramat      maybe worledit was used to set those nodes to air, because it uses LVM it may not have reset the air node param2 values to 0
14:08 tenplus1     hi calcul0n
14:08 calcul0n     hi ten
14:19 CWz          the update which made the server decide the drawing is like a night mare for tablet users, they think that if they pause they won't drown since the client freezes when they do stuff like  activate an input field
14:19 CWz          this funny
14:19 tenplus1     hi CWz, hi cx384
14:20 cx384        hi tenplus1 and CWz
14:20 CWz          Hi tenplus1 and cx384
14:20 tenplus1     lol, freeze frame from damage... we have a few of those as well
14:34 tenplus1     has the fall damage issue been fixed when enabling the old sneak behaviour ???
14:38 paramat      old sneak code option gives you exact old behaviour, bugs included
14:39 tenplus1     dammit...was hoping the fall damage issue would be fixed
14:49 tenplus1     is it possible to add a check for entity out of range errors to show the line/variable name
15:19 paramat      the new sneak code was written primarily to fix the damage avoidance bug, as you can see in the threads it was found to be impossible to fix the bug while keeping the old sneak behaviour
15:20 Krock        which could've been worked around by manually pushing a collision/damage into the collisions vector
15:20 Krock        like it's done right now in the new sneak code
15:20 tenplus1     but I do think it's important to have an entity error check possible in code
15:21 tenplus1     showing where and how...
15:25 Sokomine     just let the player live :)
15:27 tenplus1     heh
15:27 tenplus1     hi Sokomine
15:30 Sokomine     hi ten, krock, paramat, rest
15:39 Shara        Krock: are you saying old sneak behaviour could be done while avoiding fall damage?
15:39 Sokomine     hah :-) no house with "0 front doors found" left :-)
15:39 Krock        hi Shara, Sokomine
15:40 Krock        Shara, yes sure. They said it ain't possible but there's a workaround
15:40 Sokomine     oh, that sounds good
15:40 Shara        So all of this...
15:40 Sokomine     but still...just letting the player live would be the nicer option :-))
15:40 Shara        And yet we have been told old sneak code option is temporary only...
15:40 tenplus1     not on my server :)
15:40 tenplus1     they get no free passes
15:41 Shara        I still see myself possibly leaving MT over this issue long term.
15:41 Shara        So if there is an actual solution that fixes the whole thing, why is this not happening instead of the new move code???
15:41 tenplus1     moving fall damage check away from sneak glitch would prolly work
15:44 Krock        Shara, I actually planned to merge both versions to get an acceptable solution. Not falling down when releasing shift is a nice feature
15:45 Shara        Krock: I hate that feature.
15:45 Shara        Is there any way that can be optional?
15:45 paramat      Shara best check with sfan5 too about this apparent possibility, it may not be quite as straightforward
15:45 Krock        you want more settings?
15:45 Shara        I've tried to adjust to it, and it just doesn't give me the the same felxibility to control movement.
15:45 tenplus1     it's like holding shift it parkour like and keeping you attached the ledge you're on...
15:45 Shara        Krock: if more settings is what is needed to feel like I can play the game, yes.
15:45 Krock        ack
15:46 Shara        And since that is purely a control preference, that would preferablly be client side
15:46 Shara        I constantly find myself unable to just drop when I want to
15:47 Shara        I get that it might be better for mobile clients possibly, but I can't express how much I dislike it, along with the issue of boosted jump next to a ledge still being limited to two nodes max (at least it was when I last checked)
15:49 paramat      Krock could you consider coding new sneak to be more like old sneak, while also fixing the most serious bugs of old sneak, and keeping sneak ladder/sneak jump enabled by the physics override?
15:50 Shara        Alternatively I would be fine with the option simply being kept.
15:50 tenplus1     basically old sneak method with fall damage added :P
15:50 Shara        tenplus1: that's exactly what I would like
15:50 Krock        err what? I thought that was what I did in my PR
15:50 Shara        Krock: Sorry if I have missed things, but the whole issue annoyed me so much that I stopped checking the PRs about it
15:50 paramat      you PR is not like old sneak, it's only a little closer
15:51 paramat      *your
15:51 Shara        I would be happiest with old sneak exactly as it was, just add in a damage check for falls.
15:51 Shara        sneak ladders optional or otherwise... I don't mind
15:51 paramat      maybe we could keep the 'old move code' option
15:51 Shara        please do.
15:52 paramat      there's no big need to remove it
15:53 Shara        I know a lot of people have worked on it, and I don't want to just moan over and over, but the new move code is simply a game breaker for me, and there's been no reassurance of a long term answer I'm okay with
15:54 paramat      Krock what i mean is, can you make new sneak identical to old sneak, as you claim? while avoiding the damage bug
15:54 Shara        I think the damage bug was the biggest reason to change it in the first place?
15:54 paramat      yeah
15:55 Krock        paramat, it's basically this code block that does the magic https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/localplayer.cpp#L282-L290
15:55 tenplus1     and we keep the sneak physics override to disable it only when needed...
15:56 paramat      Krock i'm unsure about your claim, best discuss with sfan5. what players want is very specific behaviour
15:56 Shara        I just worry you will never please everyone without some options at this point.
15:56 Shara        Since the divide on this seemed pretty even, and very extreme in both directions
15:57 paramat      i'm trying to remember if there was any need to remove the old move code at 0.5, i don't think so
15:57 tenplus1     if it helps sway anyone, the sneak glitch was the one thing that we had over minecraft that added to the game and had it's own way of moving/climbing/parkour that was unique to minetest
15:58 paramat      i think i suggested doing that just to help get that PR merged :]
15:58 Krock        Oh look at this discussion potential that I just found.
15:58 Shara        tenplus1: Yup. I have tried, but I just really don't enjoy moving round in game without it. Strips the fun for me.
15:59 * Sokomine   nods to tenplus1
15:59 Sokomine     sneak ladders where always a bit odd - but people got used to it and loved them for a long time
16:00 tenplus1     we had a huge parkour tower on Xanadu mk.2 that used sneak on one of the harder levels and it was amazing...  really made the course stand out...   it's not possible now with the new code
16:00 tenplus1     if stu would add gloves to 3d_armor we could have the old style sneak glitch as a feature to climb with, would be kewl :D
16:01 Shara        Yea, that's what I always wanted to see
16:02 Shara        Increased mobility at the price of increase defence... something like that
16:02 Shara        decreased def*
16:03 Shara        Then there is a bit more to the game than simply piling on the defence, and you can start to think about how you want to play
16:03 paramat      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6090
16:04 red-001      just be glad we don't have half-life 2 style ladders
16:04 tenplus1     hi red... how'd ya mean ???
16:05 paramat      so i'm ok with keeping the old move code option, the last thing i want is a much appreciated server owner leaving MT when we can keep a harmless option
16:06 tenplus1     once the fall damage is fixed for the old style behaviour then all is well with the world
16:06 tenplus1     in fact, lemmie paste that into issue :D
16:06 Shara        Yup. I think that would please most people
16:07 red-001      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcrjUa4dzoM
16:08 tenplus1     ahh i get you now red, you can climb on both sides but the hole is only on one of them :DDDD
16:08 red-001      oh and the direction you are going in is decided by your look direction
16:08 paramat      wow lots of reaction
16:09 * Shara      wonders why Krock is confused by a desire to keep the old code
16:10 * Krock      tells Shara that he would like to have more reactions to fill that bar
16:10 Shara        :P
16:11 red-001      https://www.reddit.com/r/HalfLife/comments/41we06/halflife_2_laddersthe_greatest_challenge/
16:11 tenplus1     Krock: the pull you pasted, does that fix the fall damage for old sneak behaviour ???
16:12 paramat      so this will hopefully be merged soon https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5533 it improves new sneak a little, do test once merged, but i doubt it will satisfy everyone
16:12 Krock        tenplus1, no, the old sneak code is untouched
16:12 tenplus1     ah okies :P
16:13 tenplus1     was wondering what ya pasted :)
16:13 Krock        that's about the code that could be pasted into the old code too to fix the damage evading
16:13 Shara        Yet paramat is saying it's unlikely to work?
16:13 tenplus1     ahhh goody :)) was hoping that would be the case
16:13 paramat      Krock please try it
16:14 Shara        old code with damage fix would be the ideal
16:14 paramat      i'm just sceptical
16:14 Shara        if possible, I just really don't understand why it wasn't done to begin with :(
16:14 paramat      well sfan5 couldn't work out how to
16:14 paramat      so it seemed impossible at the time
16:15 tenplus1     you could be the greatest programmer ever, but sometimes a new set of eyes for a problem helps
16:15 tenplus1     my first day in #minetest-project resulted in a few mods being optimized :)
16:16 paramat      anyway i would prefer to keep the old code option while people experiment and as long as players are unhappy with the new
16:17 tenplus1     +1
16:17 Shara        paramat: unless there are massive changes, that's forever on my part :P
16:18 paramat      yes it may have to be, and i'm fine with that
16:18 Shara        It would just be really nice to have confirmation of that, so I can stop worrying
16:19 paramat      that's my position and i'll argue for it, lets see what other devs think
16:19 Shara        Thank you
16:19 paramat      having that block of old move code in there is harmless
16:20 tenplus1     kewlio :PPP
16:20 paramat      the prospect of Shara 'leaving' is terrifying :]
16:20 paramat      hehe
16:21 tenplus1     rc is a very popular server
16:21 Shara        well, I'm looking at alternatives, but I don't like any of them
16:21 Shara        And freezing my servers on certain versions long term (even though I've been known to do it anyway) isn't something I like, especially once compatibility breaks
16:22 Shara        DL was moved to stable yesterday.... actually working on getting RC ready to update right now.
16:22 tenplus1     stability is good...   for all I enjoy using latest devs that one serialize.h error keeps cropping up... and it's not the mods...
16:25 sfan5        paramat: it's certainly not impossible but like you said I couldn't work out how to do it
16:25 tenplus1     hi sfan
16:26 KaadmY       Is there a way to place decorations below things?
16:26 paramat      ok
16:26 KaadmY       Like moss hanging in caves
16:26 tenplus1     hi KaadmY
16:26 KaadmY       Yo
16:26 tenplus1     paramat: didn't you say you were working on something like that at one point ?
16:26 paramat      KaadmY that's my plan
16:26 tenplus1     ehe +1
16:27 paramat      underground decorations that can be above or below the 'place on' node
16:27 Shara        KaadmY: caverealms already has things hanging from cave roofs :P
16:27 KaadmY       Yeah
16:27 tenplus1     needs voxelmanip tho
16:27 KaadmY       I could use schematics with centered Y and offset -1m in the schematic
16:27 KaadmY       But messy
16:28 paramat      yes best to enable simple decos to do this
16:28 tenplus1     I dare say the mapgen is having a lot of features added for next release :PPPP
16:28 tenplus1     *cough* layering
16:28 paramat      i've been working very hard on mapgen
16:29 KaadmY       What if you set the decoration height to -1?
16:29 Shara        layering would be great to see
16:29 paramat      layering depends on a new mapgen, i'm experimenting but in time for 0.5 is not likely
16:29 tenplus1     aww... shame...  been eager to see this in engine for quite some time
16:30 paramat      or rather, it's possible for 0.5 but not at a quality level i would be happy with
16:30 tenplus1     as a testing feature it would be amazing paramat, kinda like v8 mapgen for us to play with
16:30 paramat      and i have other ideas i am considering
16:31 tenplus1     do tell ??
16:32 paramat      i'm working on a 'mgv8', a prototype version might be ready for 0.5, but maybe just a normal single realm version
16:32 tenplus1     :P
16:32 paramat      don't want to talk about my other ideas yet, but if you learnt how to compile you could test my branches as i dev
16:33 tenplus1     my wee pc would die :P not that powerful
16:33 Shara        Compiling doesn't take much really :P
16:34 Shara        (unless you try on windows)
16:34 tenplus1     ehehe...
16:34 paramat      if it can run MT it can compile it
16:34 tenplus1     a run in place deb version would be handy
16:34 octacian     paramat: Wait... you mentioned the word "realm". Is something actually going to happen when it comes to implementing realms?
16:35 paramat      not 'other dimensions', stacked world layers
16:35 tenplus1     +1,000,000
16:35 tenplus1     we've needed 'dis
16:36 octacian     paramat: Please no...
16:36 paramat      or 'other' ways to use the world space and have different 'areas'
16:37 octacian     paramat: Please just look into implementing real realms... Not stacked realms. They'd just result in a a mess
16:37 Sokomine     sounds very good
16:37 octacian     plus, there'd be a small limit
16:37 Shara        octacian: why?
16:37 paramat      then a mod could always add impassable barriers between to effectively make these dimensions
16:37 octacian     >_<
16:37 Shara        MT maps have a ridiculous amount of wasted height.
16:37 octacian     We already discussed the entire issue in GitHub
16:37 paramat      what is a 'real realm'
16:37 KaadmY       octacian: define "realm"
16:38 tenplus1     *shudder* the idea of minecraft dimensions isnt good... layering is much easier
16:38 Shara        And there are already mods that add in various layers, and they work well, just obviously are not as efficient
16:38 octacian     My personal suggestion if that we should save different realms in different map files
16:38 KaadmY       Why not just have a large height difference and a custom light method that ignores higher/lower realms?
16:38 KaadmY       Realms like Minecraft (seperate realms that have their own coordinate systems) would be a HUGE nightmare
16:38 octacian     KaadmY: Why?
16:39 octacian     Stacked realms is just a hacky shortcut. Once you run out of stacking space, no more realms.
16:39 KaadmY       Since all old maps would be incompatible, networking would be incompatible, and the codebase would basically have to be rewritten
16:39 octacian     I don't think either would happen.
16:39 KaadmY       You could get 120+ Minecraft-height realms with Minetest's world side
16:39 tenplus1     lol octacian, we have 60,000 in height to play with so could easily have 60 realms of 1000 nodes
16:39 KaadmY       size*
16:39 KaadmY       No, 240+
16:40 paramat      i'm not capable of coding database multiple worlds so someone else would have to, also it is not trivial and i think not much needed
16:40 octacian     Sometimes it's nice to have more than 1000 nodes in height. Listen, the moment you choose stacked realms, you just take a shortcut that will eventually end in limitations
16:40 octacian     Implement real realms, with separate coordinates, separate chat, etc..., those limitations don't exist.
16:40 KaadmY       Do you want to rewrite half the lighting/meshgen/network/save protocol?
16:40 paramat      seems not worth the effort to me, but others might code it
16:40 tenplus1     I'd like to see a server that wuld need more than 60 layers/dimensions... not even minecraft servers have that many
16:40 KaadmY       ^
16:41 octacian     So would I.
16:41 KaadmY       Honestly, I think having dedicated realms is a very good idea
16:41 KaadmY       But too late for Minetest
16:41 octacian     However, if limitations are put in place, the creativity that could result would be epic.
16:41 Shara        to make that many distinct dimensions... you'd need to register such a ridiculous number of nodes anyway
16:41 octacian     it's never too late
16:42 octacian     Why would you need to register a ridiculous number of nodes?
16:42 Shara        Or they don't end up very distinct
16:42 KaadmY       octacian: "too late", as in a new engine would likely be faster :P
16:42 tenplus1     lol
16:42 Shara        What's the point of new realms/layers that just repeat?
16:42 octacian     KaadmY: Well, from your perspective, everything new in MT is too late then :P
16:42 KaadmY       So someone figured out my standpoint :D
16:42 octacian     Shara: There isn't, however, if they were implemented properly, different mods and even mapgens could be loaded for each realm
16:43 KaadmY       Hi XtremeHacker
16:43 tenplus1     hi XtremeHacker
16:43 KaadmY       :P
16:43 XtremeHacker Hwy KaadmY, tenplus1
16:43 XtremeHacker *Hey
16:43 Shara        octacian: I don't know really. Just at that point it feels better to run more than one server
16:43 Shara        Hi XtremeHacker
16:43 tenplus1     K.I.S.S.
16:43 paramat      'hacky shortcut' :] no it's just another approach, it's not meant as an imperfect attempt at dimensions
16:43 KaadmY       ^
16:44 octacian     Well, I for one have gtg. Maybe when XtremeHacker gets back he'll explain why proper realms would be better - we're both on the same page on that one.
16:44 * tenplus1   looks at XtremeHacker
16:44 paramat      MC has to use dimensions because of the pathetic world height, if it had the height it would likely have put the nether and end in the same world but low down / high up
16:44 octacian     However, I'll just say that I really don't think stacked realms are the way to go. But, if it's all we get, I'll take it
16:45 KaadmY       paramat: Minecraft has a different coordinate system for each realm
16:45 octacian     The best solution honestly would be to have "real" realms, and support for specifying different mapgens for different heights or something
16:46 KaadmY       So for example walking 1m in the Nether moves you 8m in the overworld
16:46 tenplus1     why copy minecraft ?
16:46 KaadmY       Hm good point
16:47 KaadmY       Why copy Minecraft's exact inventory system, mechanics, blocks
16:47 Sokomine     don't worry too much about 1000 nodes high structures. people won't be able to see them most of the time anyway. no point in having them really....
16:47 KaadmY       The only problem I can think of with stacked realms is if people want to have really deep underground areas
16:48 Sokomine     the realms or layers or whatever could be very nice for those solar system mods - have a diffrent world/planet at each height
16:48 Calinou      <KaadmY> So for example walking 1m in the Nether moves you 8m in the overworld
16:48 Calinou      technically this is only true when using portals
16:48 Shara        KaadmY: not every server will have to place layers at all possible points
16:48 tenplus1     layering would still let you dig deep but provide deeper layers/biomes to dig into
16:48 Calinou      the engine does not multiply all coordinates by 8 all the time while you're in the Nether
16:48 tenplus1     hi Cal
16:48 Shara        Layers can be underground layers too
16:48 Calinou      hi
16:48 KaadmY       Calinou: yes
16:49 Calinou      KaadmY: also, honestly... I wish there was a game that wasn't afraid of going full-on cloning Minecraft
16:49 KaadmY       Calinou: Pixture :P
16:49 Calinou      I still like the Minecraft experience the most out of all the voxel games
16:49 tenplus1     minecraft-like, but not 100% minecraft
16:49 KaadmY       Not a clone, but I just shamelessly took mechanics that worked well
16:49 Calinou      but, we need to move away from it one day, because Microsoft is likely to kill the cross-platform Java version one day
16:49 Calinou      the game also isn't exactly cheap now (€24)
16:49 KaadmY       Oh rly
16:50 Calinou      it went from €20 to €24 about 2 years ago, I think
16:50 Sokomine     Calinou: try mineclone2. it seems to be very close. sadly it's a pvp anarchy server that runs it
16:50 tenplus1     glad I never paid for it, mc almost killed my computer
16:50 Calinou      for what it's worth, you can get GTA V for €24 in France right now (on deals)
16:50 Calinou      GTA V cost much more to develop than Minecraft, and is more recent :P
16:51 Calinou      Sokomine: I know about it, but sometimes I question engine limitations/decisions still
16:51 Sokomine     tenplus1: same here. mc just doesn't run on my machine. i'd have to insert an extra graphics card - which would consume more energy and be louder. i don't really want that
16:51 paramat      so there is a lot of talk about dimensions but the effort needed is huge and considering our current lack of dev time it's unlikely to be done, just not worth it when we have so much wasted world space already
16:51 Sokomine     Calinou: ah, ok
16:52 paramat      the dimension fans can talk all they want it won't make it happen :]
16:53 Sokomine     :-)
16:53 Sokomine     diffrent layers are fine. there could be higher layers for places where people do extensive mining or ufo-flying
16:53 tenplus1     +1 paramat .. your layering mapgen is the way forward... this I know!!!
16:53 tenplus1     have been hinting at this for well over a year now :))) am just glad it's getting worked on
16:54 paramat      well this stuff has been my purpose all along
16:54 paramat      i'm only here because of the world height
16:54 Sokomine     very fine
16:55 tenplus1     layering + skybox  = many amazing realities
16:55 paramat      i was interested in MC and the most interesting thing i saw was 'cubic chunks' that expanded the world height
16:55 Sokomine     some mods may still need adjustments. mg_villages only cares about mapchunks up to a certain height. no need to slow down map generation at places where villages will never be placed. but if it where to be set on a diffrent layer that would have to be taken into account
16:55 Calinou      paramat: I remember cubic chunks back in the day
16:55 Calinou      it made the game much slower, but was nice
16:56 paramat      i chose MT because of: easy modding, and world height
16:56 Calinou      but Mojang ended up using two 128-height chunks, amounting to 256 heihgt
16:56 Calinou      which is enough in many cases, but not all :P
16:56 Sokomine     mc - in its classic form - is great due to its limitations. even a few blocks are enough to create amazing structures. as for building, less is sometimes more
16:56 Calinou      they tried 512 too, but it was just too slow
16:56 Sokomine     even thoug we all love to extend our worlds with more and more details :-)
16:57 tenplus1     having +/- 500 would be sufficient for any world/realm
16:57 paramat      as for number of layers, even 8 layers would be a lot to create, so each could be 8000 tall, 4000 ground, 4000 atmosphere
16:58 Sokomine     paramat: in my case it was easy modding (originally wanted villagers and cars to travel on the streets in a creative world) and running well (instead of mc survival which just didn't work out)
16:59 paramat      i only knew simple BASIC 4 years ago so liked Lua
17:00 tenplus1     you're doing well with what youve added so far dude
17:00 Shara        yup :)
17:00 Calinou      Minecraft is pretty easy to run on a desktop/laptop today
17:00 Sokomine     certainly :-) thanks for all the work!
17:00 Calinou      but you'll still want a dedicated GPU of some sort
17:00 Calinou      ...which is true for all commercial games of this era
17:00 Sokomine     calinou: not if you don't have an extra graphics card
17:00 Calinou      yeah, but see what I said about commercial games :P
17:01 Sokomine     yes, exactly. mt runs fine with the one inside the celeron :-)
17:01 Calinou      even the indies will usually not run well on an IGP
17:01 Sokomine     you just nijna'd me
17:01 Calinou      even the latest midrange IGPs (like the one in my laptop) struggle at CS:GO in 1080p
17:01 tenplus1     ehe...  I turn every visual effect OFF and have it run on mobile ion gfx, and it performs well
17:01 Calinou      (I don't consider < 1080p acceptable personally :P)
17:01 Calinou      which is a 2012 game
17:01 Calinou      (all settings to low, textures on high)
17:03 KaadmY       Well technically 4 years ago I only knew BASIC too :P
17:04 * tenplus1   grew up on AMOS Basic... was a wonderful language
17:04 Calinou      4 years ago, I didn't know JavaScript or Rust :p
17:04 Calinou      but I'm slow at picking up programming concepts
17:04 Calinou      mostly due to lack of motivation
17:05 tenplus1     minetest gave me a damn good hobby :)
17:05 tenplus1     I enjoy tinkering
17:06 Fixer        Calinou: IGP are crap mostly
17:06 Calinou      tenplus1: although, many people believe this is a problem in open source
17:06 Calinou      if you're not into tinkering, you really won't like most open source software
17:07 Calinou      (some people even translate this to "Be a masochist")
17:07 tenplus1     open-source is a good way to go...
17:07 tenplus1     hi tumeninodes
17:07 tenplus1     I can edit hte mods and override basic mt_game functions to my hearts delight, but only give ideas as to engine stuff... am not c++ minded
17:08 tenplus1     o.O although to be fair, right now Wuzzy is doing my head in with his constant requests on mobs api changes
17:08 tenplus1     https://github.com/tenplus1/mobs_redo/issues
17:09 tenplus1     hi nrz
17:11 tumeninodes  hi tenplus1
17:12 nerzhul      hi
17:12 tumeninodes  hi nerzhul
17:14 tumeninodes  if someone could tell me, I merged the stairsIO mod into the default stairs mod. Can I open a PR for the default stairs mod individually? Or do I need to use my MTG fork to do this?
17:15 tumeninodes  or my MTG clone sorry
17:21 tumeninodes  afk
17:27 rubenwardy   you need to fork the MTG repo on Github, commit your changes, then make a PR
17:33 tumeninodes  thank you rubenwardy.
17:34 octacian     paramat: OK, I did some thinking on the dimensions issue, and i'm fine with stacked dimensions. If I understand them correctly, simply a better way to manage things like caverealms and floatlands, they would be really nice in that you could seamlessly travel from one to another without some portal or something
17:35 octacian     However, I do see some possible issues
17:36 octacian     In order for travelling from one to another to work in a way that made sense, you'd have to make sure that the dimensions were stacked in the right order. For example, what if you already had caverealms and overworld dimensions, but then also wanted to add a nether dimension. Well, for traveling from one to another to work nicely, you'd have to shift the first two dimensions up
17:36 tenplus1     octacian: they will be stacked so you could literally climb from one to another unless an unbreakable base node is added
17:36 octacian     That's the major issue I see, is modifying existing realms
17:37 octacian     tenplus1: Yes, that's what I'm saying. You could climb from one to another. However, if they were organized incorrectly it wouldn't make sense. In order to maintain proper organization, you'd need a method with which to shift dimensions from one place to another so as to allow placing another dimension above or below it
17:37 octacian     Not required, but could be an issue
17:38 tenplus1     we could have a mod list for layering status... higher levels would be planets etc. lower nether etc. mid range is wahtever
17:38 octacian     Another thing is, let's say you had 2 overworld realms for some reason. You get to the top of one, only to find the bottom of the next. In this case, it just wouldn't make sense. It just wouldn't feel right IMO... I mean, you get to the top only to find the bottom of something else
17:38 Fixer        JUST ONE MORE YEAR AND THEN YOU WILL BE HAPPY
17:38 octacian     I would expect to find nothing at the top in the case of this honestly
17:39 octacian     Fixer: uhhhh..
17:39 octacian     tenplus1: Yes, but that doesn't deal with the issue that one realm might be added at, let's say the top. Then what if you wanted to add another realm, but you wanted it at the top with the current top one just below it
17:40 octacian     In order for that to word without creating a new world, you'd have to shift a huge amount of blocks down
17:40 tenplus1     an api can be made to register layers/realms for mod usage...
17:40 octacian     I suppose this is probably an unavoidable issue, but just figured I'd mention it
17:40 tumeninodes  octacian, I don't think one (or most users) would run into those issues, unless they were looking for them, during general use
17:40 octacian     Yes, that's what I'd expect, but that still doesn't fix the issue I mentioned
17:40 octacian     tumeninodes: IK..But it's still a possible issue, which really annoys me :P
17:41 tumeninodes  but issues are part of the business ; )
17:41 octacian     ..but issues that are left unfixed are bad for the business :P
17:41 Fixer        current mood: https://i.imgur.com/dfmxV0n.jpg
17:41 octacian     As well as issues that are created by a "solution" to a problem
17:41 * octacian   isn't even gonna click that link
17:42 tenplus1     ground one completed 1st, then testing, then any issues leftover will be dealt with
17:43 Fixer        octacian: it is safe
17:44 octacian     Fixer: heh, that it was :rofl:
17:44 tumeninodes  anything newly implemented is always going to have issues, regardless of how much pre-thought goes into it
17:46 tumeninodes  I think stacked realms sounds great, as long as each stack can use different mapgen settings & flags
17:46 tenplus1     hi Darcidride
17:48 tenplus1     Shara, how about holding sneak when placing stackable egg to give non-tamed variaty ???
17:49 Sokomine     or add a tool to re-accustom them to life in the wilderness :-)
17:50 tenplus1     lol, the blinky thing from MIB :P
17:50 Shara        tenplus1: if someone really wants that option, maybe
17:50 tenplus1     it's a nice option so that you can place the eggs and they are tamed, but hold sneak (like with most blocks) and it erases it's tamed status
17:50 Sokomine     ah. reintroduce animal/mob to the wild
17:50 Sokomine     exactly :-)
17:52 paramat      i agree that stacked layers has many issues if used to try to implement dimensions, but the point is, it won't be used as an imperfect implementation of dimensions, it will just do something different
17:54 paramat      dimensions are low priority so with our dev time shortage it is unlikely, unless a dev gets particularly interested, even then it is likely not worth the effort
17:54 tenplus1     I want layering more than dimensions, it will bring more to the game and is possible considering dev time restraints
17:54 Shara        I'd also favour layering
17:56 paramat      i would actually encourage such a dev to direct that huge amount of effort to something of higher priority, like VAEs
17:57 paramat      or whatever
17:58 tenplus1     VAE ???? whassat ???
17:58 tumeninodes  a massive dev-raid is needed. I have duct tape and a van. who's in?
17:59 rubenwardy   !wiki VAE
17:59 tenplus1     lol tumeninodes
17:59 rubenwardy   tenplus1, http://dev.minetest.net/TODO#Voxel_Area_Entities
18:00 tenplus1     hi ruben, thanks
18:00 tenplus1     ahh, good idea, although you just know you'll have a player wanting to drive a mountain around
18:01 tenplus1     Mobs Redo API updated (again) - fixed gravity issue, fall speed and new un-tamed egg support added
18:08 Sokomine     tumeninodes: :-)
18:12 tumeninodes  hi Sokomine
18:18 tenplus1     http://www.ebuyer.com/761103-asus-rog-g20cb-gaming-pc-g20cb-uk007t
18:19 tumeninodes  blah, screwed up with my first PR
18:25 tenplus1     what's it for tumeninodes /
18:26 tumeninodes  I merged the stairsIO mod into default stairs
18:27 tenplus1     ah kewl... if that gets added no more Stairs Redo :DDD
18:28 tumeninodes  but, use copy/paste :P have to fix some errors (lots actually). one error I will need help with though because I have no idea how to change a function title while keeping the original function in place
18:29 tumeninodes  ? is that what your stairs redo does?
18:29 tumeninodes  I'm sorry
18:29 tenplus1     github.com/tenplus1/stairs <-- adds corner stairs and slopes :PPP
18:29 tenplus1     it works differently tho but backwards compatible :D
18:30 tumeninodes  heh, my work will anger some modders
18:30 tenplus1     hehe, not angry, it's actually a good thing if corners get into default :D
18:31 tumeninodes  well, I had to make function changes in castles and quartz in my copies after I made the merge on my end
18:32 tumeninodes  I will have to look at your code for backward compat.
18:32 tenplus1     :P
18:33 tumeninodes  I have to look, I was going to try stair redo but had not had time yet
18:34 tumeninodes  did you do a PR for that? heh I am so not up with things :D
18:34 tenplus1     nah, it lives on my git page incase anyone wants to use it :DDDD  no pull made at all
18:35 tenplus1     hi kaeza
18:35 kaeza        hi tenplus1
18:36 tumeninodes  hi kaeza
18:36 kaeza        heyo tumeninodes
18:36 tumeninodes  tenplus1, soooo, you could make my life easier, and PR stairs Redo :D
18:37 tenplus1     does stairsio use .obj files ?
18:37 tumeninodes  besides, mine has no slopes
18:37 tumeninodes  no but, there are some floating around.
18:37 tumeninodes  marcus was looking for them and I think greendimond made a set
18:37 tenplus1     redo uses nodeboxes for slab, corner, invcorner and .obj's for stair and slope
18:38 tumeninodes  I did too but mine were harsh and I did not redo them
18:39 tumeninodes  is invcorner to match with slopes?
18:40 tenplus1     corner and invcorner work with slab and stairs, slopes are extra decoration stairs :D
18:41 tumeninodes  ok so they are the same, inner and outer corner. The "v" just threw me off :P
18:42 tumeninodes  so, how do I talk you into replacing my error riddled PR with yours :P
18:43 tumeninodes  I have to step a way for approx 20 min brb
18:45 tenplus1     https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8494&start=2650#p254946
19:04 Sokomine     wish trees would use my trees_lib or any other lib...
19:21 tumeninodes  tenplus1: so what do you think? Are you interested in doing a PR for stairs redo for default stairs or, should I just continue with mine? I feel bad as you have already done all that work for stairs redo
19:22 tenplus1     keep going with yours dude :P
19:23 tenplus1     redo is a tialored stairs mod, has too many changes
19:23 tenplus1     we run it on Xanadu, that was it's only purpose
19:23 tumeninodes  my initial mistake was, I made a branch to add my changes, then did a PR to my MTG repo fork but I thought it would only go to my own repo, but it went to the main repo :P
19:23 tumeninodes  ah, ok then. Just be aware I will be stealing your backwards compat code :P
19:24 tenplus1     help yourself :P
19:24 tumeninodes  with your full creds of course. I have to add cred to themtsurvivor as well
19:24 tumeninodes  thank you
19:25 tumeninodes  ugh... now I gotta "do" stuff..., lame
19:25 tenplus1     :P
19:25 tumeninodes  also looked at the link you posted earlier... as horse race... so cool
19:26 tenplus1     yeah :) now that mob_horse has horseshoes players can craft and apply a set to speed up horse, make them jump higher etc
19:26 tumeninodes  awesome. nice to see all the mobs work lately
19:27 tenplus1     api runs better as well lately, few good changes
19:28 tumeninodes  is anyone continuing with marcus' path finder work, or is he still working on it behind the curtain?
19:29 tumeninodes  burli (sorry)
19:30 tenplus1     am sure he's tinkering away with it and improving the code :)  we also have a pull in mt-engine to improve line_of_sight function also
19:32 tumeninodes  oh, excellent. is the distance for line of sight adjustable?
19:33 tenplus1     the change lets it work through airlike nodes and anything buildable to like plants/snow... so more accurate
19:34 tumeninodes  that would be good.
19:35 tenplus1     would definitely speed up mob api cause if it finds those kinda nodes it has to check each one induvidually slowing things down
19:35 tumeninodes  well, I need to stop procrastinating and go fix my PR. Maybe I'll be nominated for the most error-filled PR award :P
19:36 tenplus1     ehehehe, have fun :PP
19:36 tumeninodes  thanks, I won't. :D
19:37 Sokomine     tumeninodes: i'm currently intensly working with it - in a static environment. i do read all buildings schematics in mg_villages, then run burlis pathfinder on each house to find a path from each bed to the outside world, thus identifying all the front/back/leading outside doors
19:37 Sokomine     hmpf. he left while i typed
19:38 tenplus1     lol
19:38 Sokomine     wasn't there a bot with /msg functionality around?
19:39 Sokomine     burlis pathfinder works nicely inside the houses. i had to do some small adjustments for some types of nodebox-like nodes and doors. mob_world_interaction holds my most recent version
19:39 tenplus1     kewl, gotta try it out sometuime
19:43 tenplus1     ooh, Xanadu has clocked 80hrs uptime and still sitting at 0.1 lag :P nice
19:46 Sokomine     nice :-)
19:47 tenplus1     once tonight's update is finished I'll open border for new players
19:49 * Sokomine   stares at the acacia sapling and shouts "grow!" at it
19:49 tenplus1     lol, use bonemeal
19:49 garywhite    I think I found a bug in 0.4.16: If you press an arrow key accidentally while in the pause menu, the game freezes up & crashes
19:50 tenplus1     daaamn, so it goes.... also hi gary
19:50 tenplus1     pose an issue for that one
19:50 garywhite    hi ten, did I disturb you?
19:50 garywhite    (I thought I may have when you said "daaamn"
19:51 tenplus1     I tried what you said... segmentation fault....
19:51 * garywhite  goes back to testing to see what keys trigger it
19:51 tenplus1     I pressed up
19:52 Shara        Ekk, that is kinda bad
19:52 Shara        Confirmed down arrow does it too
19:52 tenplus1     the disable_jump group doesnt work on liquids... can still float upwards
19:52 Shara        garywhite: please make sure to post an issue
19:53 garywhite    It looks like only up/down arrows do it, nothing else
19:54 tenplus1     strange bug
19:54 garywhite    But does that fall under MT or MTG? (I'd assume MT)
19:54 tenplus1     mt engine
20:00 garywhite    I'm testing on 0.4.15 too to see if it happens on that too
20:01 garywhite    Only on 0.4.16
20:01 garywhite    OK, posted #6092
20:02 tenplus1     sweet, thx gary :)
20:03 Shara        Added a comment :)
20:03 Shara        Nice find, gary
20:07 Sokomine     tenplus1: bonemeal doesn't help at mapgen time, in voxelmanip *pouring bonemeal over the entire map* :-)
20:07 red-001      #1 <-- I wonder does this work here yet
20:07 tenplus1     :P
20:12 tenplus1     nite all :)
20:27 nerzhul      garywhite, fixed
20:54 garywhite    Fastest issue to fix ever
20:55 nerzhul      simple crash to fix
21:44 kaeza        nerzhul, garywhite, https://xkcd.com/371/
21:44 garywhite    heh
22:43 Fixer        whats stairsio?
22:44 Fixer        nevermind
23:56 KaadmY       Is there currently any way to have hanging decorations?
23:57 KaadmY       Ie. moss hanging from stone in caves
23:57 KaadmY       Or vines hanging from swamp leaves
23:57 KaadmY       Just for examples
23:57 KaadmY       Right now Minetest's decorations are limited to on top of nodes