Time Nick Message 00:39 MTDiscord something i think we should address at some point is nesting stuff rather than a flat mess. for example the three translation pages could be under /translation 00:51 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/19 00:52 MTDiscord you should edit that to be discord/irc so that certain people dont scream and make that the sole focal point 00:52 MTDiscord I do not care in any way shape or form 00:52 MTDiscord A majority of it was not discussed on IRC 00:53 MTDiscord If anyone whines about it, it will be marked as offtopic 00:53 MTDiscord ๐Ÿคท 00:59 MTDiscord all the incoming mapgen stuff should probably be shoved under /mapgen or something 00:59 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317657187992080404/image.png?ex=675f7b62&is=675e29e2&hm=859b272e10b652fb35ab127653b66c88082bc59905607b634838f61e0340eee7& 01:04 MTDiscord Technically premature to close up shop on minetest_docs since we haven't actually agreed to merge it yet but I won't complain about encouraging the merge :p 01:12 MTDiscord merging https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/20 in 5 01:12 MTDiscord trival 01:24 MTDiscord pr for this https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/21 01:25 MTDiscord merging in 10 01:58 MTDiscord My first PR for the new wiki site ๐Ÿ™‚ https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/22 01:59 MTDiscord You mean if anyone tries to push to the master branch? Or does the current rules prevent people from creating too many remote branches? 02:06 MTDiscord it means that only the master branch can exist 02:06 MTDiscord ideally everyone uses there own repo for branches 02:07 MTDiscord (there is no rules) 02:07 MTDiscord other than informal announce here 02:43 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/23 ๐Ÿ™‚ 02:44 MTDiscord how is that redundant? 03:11 MTDiscord Because the left side panel is clearly visible already :/ 03:12 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/23#pullrequestreview-2504287422 03:13 MTDiscord its mainly just a drop in for a table of contents that existed there on the old site. hence just burn the whole section 03:14 MTDiscord This line specifically feels out of place, it's got a typo, not capitalized, no ending period, and only points to the navigation bar, which is pretty standard for websites nowadays. The other part of this section, the link to terminology is valuable 03:15 MTDiscord before you start, look here ......then do nothing 03:15 MTDiscord Ah, maybe we can rephrase that section to something else. But for now that line is bothering me :/ 03:16 MTDiscord i mean, it would be ideal to have it all make sense before merging, but given the whole repo content is a trashfire. ๐Ÿคท just going to merge it 03:21 MTDiscord for https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/15 should we stage the stuff in a branch, or just commit it as the work is done? only possible reason i can think of for branch staging is seo/duplicate content policy maybe? 03:21 MTDiscord does the current wiki support redirects? if so could add redirects there once the stuff is merged in 03:23 MTDiscord I'd vote to merge pages as they're valuable, easier to review things in smaller chunks. Maybe as we marge pages we can also clean up typos, formatting, etc. a bit 03:24 MTDiscord > Maybe as we marge pages we can also clean up typos, formatting, etc. a bit no thanks. one for one import, than fixes, whatever can be done 03:25 MTDiscord small stuff whatever 03:25 MTDiscord but if you doing batch imports of stuff mixing is with changes is a bad idea for history, turns it from a straight forward review to a debate over content changes, etc 03:26 MTDiscord Yeah, cleanup should be separate prs 03:28 MTDiscord seems you can only do inner wiki redirects as a user https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Redirects 03:30 MTDiscord could do it in https://wiki.luanti.org/Distributing_Minetest_Games style i suppose and just hope googles crawler ai stuff figures it out 03:31 MTDiscord but also i really dont want to have to deal with the pain of touching the wiki 08:56 MTDiscord I can take care of doing manual "page moved to dev wiki, click here" redirects for the wiki as things are moved over. for SEO it should make Google be able to determine it as a new canonical URL since it is under the same domain and the original URL becomes uninteresting to index 09:08 MTDiscord merging imported pages as we convert them sounds like a good idea. I don't think we should wait with it or keep it in a separate branch, but merge it so that it becomes gradually available on dev.luanti.org as we go 09:13 MTDiscord hopefully we won't end up with revert wars with one of the wiki busybodies... but they seem to have more or less abandoned it at this point 10:03 MTDiscord ah great, I can't create new branches in a fork when I have write permissions on the repo 10:10 MTDiscord got a workflow going anyways 11:08 MTDiscord You can't make a new branch on your own fork? Does forking copy branch protection? 11:46 MTDiscord I can 11:47 MTDiscord I just have to go to my fork specifically because github won't redirect me to it if I have write permissions 13:34 MTDiscord merged a trivial PR, removing some [toc] markers that came from the voxelmanip wiki 13:35 MTDiscord merging PRs 25 through 29 in ~10m (I checked so that the commands in 25 were correct now that I'm at my computer) 13:35 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317847495409270834/image.png?ex=67602c9f&is=675edb1f&hm=1cdb63e82717ca66d43cac7dd01b8b362b7377644fb700b7a6a0fec3bd665ff9& 13:37 MTDiscord there are further things that could be said on the luajit PRs 13:37 MTDiscord there probably are 13:37 MTDiscord do we need to open a PR for everything or can we just shovel stuff in? 13:37 MTDiscord but this is just importing it from the voxelmanip wiki 13:37 MTDiscord well I think we restricted pushing to the master branch 13:38 MTDiscord I don't know how formal we're going to be with the PR merge process 13:39 MTDiscord i think for many changes mandatory PRs are just complicating the editing process, making it slightly worse than a wiki even 13:40 MTDiscord yeah trivial changes could just be pushed to master without any PRs 13:40 MTDiscord like https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/commit/ef715c78ff41755653d6b0dc6bdeda5098bea112 13:40 MTDiscord not even just trivial changes, also more elaborate changes, wiki style 13:41 MTDiscord well of course! 13:41 MTDiscord if we were to take the wiki approach to heart we would commit everything to master and then do follow ups if there are further changes 13:41 MTDiscord i get strict approval rules for a piece of C++ software that will blow up if someone dereferences a null pointer, but for docs it's not that critical 13:41 MTDiscord i genuinely think that wouldn't be a bad idea 13:41 MTDiscord yeah 13:41 MTDiscord at least for things we in the docs team are sure about 13:42 MTDiscord especially since there's a lot of work to be done and reviews - which are quite the chore - will slow everything down significantly 13:43 MTDiscord the documentation here is also notably supplementary and not authoritative in nature (yet), doc/* in the luanti repo still has the last word 13:43 MTDiscord indeed 13:44 MTDiscord also I was looking for something resembling admonitions for hugo and found https://github.com/martignoni/hugo-notice 13:45 MTDiscord I agree with removing the PR requirement for trusted contributors, that's how we do it at my job too ๐Ÿ™‚ 13:46 MTDiscord GitHub repo > settings > rulesets > bypass list Should get you what you need 13:47 MTDiscord well, they sure stick out 13:47 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317850464037109841/image.png?ex=67602f63&is=675edde3&hm=34139926e871579984c1ac87705acfcbf37fb06ec51cfce52c036f21bbb0cb98& 13:47 MTDiscord because there's nothing built into hugo for doing this? 13:48 MTDiscord and with the light theme 13:48 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317850740001210459/image.png?ex=67602fa4&is=675ede24&hm=c5ac424ce732505bedd8596fd72511381cedb8d4ecd6e159902acc5f5d67ed97& 13:48 MTDiscord I'm pretty good with CSS, happy to look at how Hugo works and add some custom styles as needed. I'm a big fan of keeping things lightweight. In Markdown you can include most HTML tags 13:48 MTDiscord I hadn't heard of Hugo before yesterday but I'm familiar with the concept of a static site generator 13:49 MTDiscord as always the light theme is better ๐Ÿ’ช 13:50 MTDiscord I'm more of a jekyll boy but I've heard of hugo before and it seems to be quite nice just from what I've worked with it right now 13:50 MTDiscord as long as we have the shortcodes being used throughout the docs we can switch out the implementation and styling of it afterwards 13:50 MTDiscord Y/N? 13:51 MTDiscord yeah i wonder, are custom HTML tags not an option? 13:51 MTDiscord shortcodes are like includes with custom HTML behind it 13:52 MTDiscord why can't we use custom HTML directly 13:53 MTDiscord because shortcodes are shorter? 13:53 MTDiscord this does not look very short to me 13:53 MTDiscord What is a custom HTML tag? I'm just talking about span, div, p, etc 13:53 MTDiscord and HTML should be more portable 13:54 MTDiscord are you kidding me? 13:54 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317852193185075210/image.png?ex=676030ff&is=675edf7f&hm=0d74204a06acbc61f8814653ff4581ed5c0014b0415aea735a237e3527b2e298& 13:54 MTDiscord Lol I can't tell if luatic is joking ๐Ÿ˜ฌ 13:54 MTDiscord me neither 13:54 MTDiscord Mark Wiemer: HTML5 allows custom HTML tags. I suppose it depends on the Markdown implementation whether they survive. 13:54 MTDiscord Oh dang Ive never heard of that! What's the value? 13:55 MTDiscord Yeah hence my desire for custom code lol, there's gotta be a better way 13:55 MTDiscord Something like something to note should be possible 13:55 MTDiscord Given the SVG implementation, my vote is no 13:55 MTDiscord I literally linked the better way which will be above, luatic wants us to do it like below 13:55 MTDiscord no 13:56 MTDiscord option 1, without custom html tags:
note this thing
option 2, with custom html tags: something to note 13:56 MTDiscord should I remove the vector icons? 13:56 MTDiscord This is basically just automatically applying a set of attributes to an existing tag, I assume? Feels like too much niche work when global CSS already exists and should cover everything we need for a wiki site 13:56 MTDiscord option 2 is basically what hugo shortcodes are 13:57 MTDiscord i have not yet checked in detail how we would have to configure hugo to make either of these work, but both of them are in my opinion better than {{< notice note >}} {{< /notice >}} both in terms of verbosity and portability 13:58 MTDiscord (and all of these are a downgrade from AsciiDoc admonitions but well, can't have everything) 13:58 MTDiscord please, we're not forking hugo 13:58 MTDiscord Yeah. Custom HTML tags are fine, the question is whether enough people know about them. Obv they de-dupe things which never hurts. But anything with curly braces feels awkward in HTML/MD 13:59 MTDiscord Ah, didn't see the SVG was just for the icon. Honestly that's not too concerning to me, somehow I thought the SVG was the whole background lol. I am fine with adding that library. SVGs are verbose but contained and don't concern me when used properly. And this looks like a proper use to me 14:00 MTDiscord would you like it to use bitmap icons instead? 14:00 MTDiscord have we considered gfm alerts? 14:00 MTDiscord Um.. no? Gfm = GitHub flavored Markdown? 14:00 MTDiscord yes 14:00 MTDiscord that was literally what I was searching for and this was the closest I could find 14:01 MTDiscord Sry the "um no" was for roller's bitmap suggestion lol 14:02 MTDiscord https://github.com/CodeYourFuture/curriculum/pull/887/files#diff-060012ebaf8eb6a1bc35b4547fc84a240d8b68789be6fc65267d52e0f36080bbL16 14:02 MTDiscord If Hugo supports it GFM alerts would be good, I just hope we can customize them a bit as needed. Worst case we run a macro later to change to a new standard I vote whatever is simplest for now, then we can evaluate later. For me the core priority is actually moving the docs, not finalizing an admonition implementation Gonna walk the dog now ๐Ÿ™‚ 14:02 MTDiscord these people are apparently moving away from the thing you found to GFM alerts now that goldmark (and hence hugo) supports them 14:03 MTDiscord not the thing you found per se, but a similar shortcode 14:03 MTDiscord personally i can live with gfm alerts despite their obvious inferiority to the admonition syntax i came up with when i was 14 or something 14:04 MTDiscord well that's good, exactly what I was looking for 14:07 MTDiscord (I don't really understand your distaste for vector icons then) 14:16 MTDiscord Regarding custom html, css. That's a hard no fir maintaince, ease of use, etc. Would have written my own static site generator if that was the case 14:17 MTDiscord yeah i would prefer using an off the shelf plugin/theme for this 14:17 MTDiscord because it seems that now I'll have to write my own CSS for this or bring in the CSS from the notice theme 14:18 MTDiscord Are gfm notices not supported? 14:19 MTDiscord hugo allows you to hook them, but you bring your own layout and design of it 14:20 MTDiscord Heh. I say just use the plug in you found and it will be easy enough to replace them on the future if Hugo starts styling them 14:22 MTDiscord yeah. I think doing a regex find and replace to convert the notice shortcodes to the corresponding GFM alert syntax in bulk would be possible if we were to switch it out in the future 14:22 MTDiscord To do so you will need to turn on unsafe markdown parsing, so probably should fix what that complains about currently 14:22 MTDiscord I just ignored it till now 14:22 MTDiscord hm yes I noticed that when I ran it locally 14:24 MTDiscord https://github.com/alex-shpak/hugo-book/tree/7c78a39c531aa2492ed7e92f2ce9dfb2c8c0d3fa?tab=readme-ov-file#shortcodes 14:24 MTDiscord > It is recommended to set markup.goldmark.renderer.unsafe=true if you encounter problems. 14:25 MTDiscord You have to for shortcodes it seems 14:25 MTDiscord just don't use shortcodes 14:26 MTDiscord at least not for this 14:26 MTDiscord strange because the notices rendered fine without it 14:34 MTDiscord Sorry, I have no distaste for vector icons, I actually love them. I was originally complaining because I thought the HTML you shared used SVG for all the styling (header color, background color, etc) instead of using CSS where appropriate. I was wrong. Vector icons are good ๐Ÿ™‚ 14:35 MTDiscord I feel like if we have to enable "unsafe" settings to get something to work, we should probably just use a different thing 14:44 MTDiscord I don't see the big problem with a need for "custom" CSS. Surely there's something that can just be grabbed off the web. 14:47 MTDiscord we do not need to enable unsafe to get the notice theme to work 14:47 MTDiscord (and I don't know why the default shortcodes in the book theme needs unsafe) 15:14 MTDiscord anyways so I thought I could import the markdown converted contents of minetest_docs from the voxelmanip wiki: https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/31 15:17 MTDiscord after that I can fix up the asciidoc admonitions/alerts/notices/whatever you call them that were plaintext in the markdown conversion to be proper notices again 16:16 MTDiscord the one file your missing is already in markdown https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/commit/1f6d56da06641474396d34f6a5f5827e53625b4d 16:16 MTDiscord yup, I saw that 16:17 MTDiscord also those probably should be nested under /docs or something 16:17 MTDiscord also ci is erroring 16:18 MTDiscord oops 16:18 MTDiscord didn't commit everything 16:19 MTDiscord hugo server gives me a false sense of security because for some reason it can keep limping on even if there are page errors 16:20 MTDiscord since you already made them live, probably will need to alias the current pages 16:32 MTDiscord I wonder if we could move some other stuff into nested folders too 16:33 MTDiscord but I'm a bit unsure how to split things up 16:33 MTDiscord for minetest_docs the classes were in their own folder called classes 16:33 MTDiscord yes, i said as much yesterday somewhere 16:34 MTDiscord in the mapgen import pr im just taking care of nesting at the same time 17:02 MTDiscord anyone want to take a look at https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/24 real quick? 17:11 MTDiscord was just about to say I had skimmed it through and it looks okay ๐Ÿ˜„ 17:11 MTDiscord lol, if you want to "redirect" the pages on the wiki when you have time 17:11 MTDiscord since your volenteered 17:12 MTDiscord oh, yes 17:14 MTDiscord hmm, we're not gonna do anything with the translated wiki pages right 17:14 MTDiscord correct, there generally even worse than the english ones 17:15 MTDiscord yeah... 17:15 MTDiscord hugo and the template does support translation. i checked when picking them 17:15 MTDiscord other than that idc. some translator can figure it out 17:22 MTDiscord I wonder, how should we do casing for the page paths 17:22 MTDiscord that's probably something important to figure out before it's too late 17:22 MTDiscord yeah...... ive just been matching live for now 17:23 MTDiscord lowercase is the generally accepted answer, while using - or _ for spaces is debated 17:26 MTDiscord I do feel mediawiki is quite unique in how it uses underscore for URLs 17:26 MTDiscord dashes feel more standard for URLs 17:37 MTDiscord hmm why does ordering break when I set titles for pages in the front matter 17:40 MTDiscord guess we'll have to set titles for all pages to make that not happen 17:44 MTDiscord but anyway, if we have the page /Timing_and_Event_loop from minetest_docs, I can then move it to /docs/timing-and-event-loop/ and make an alias? 17:49 MTDiscord I'm in favor of kebab-case, feels most common in URLs, snake_case works too 17:50 MTDiscord yeah I would want to use kebab-case too 17:51 MTDiscord I'll go with it unless someone objects 17:52 MTDiscord Did we make a GitHub issue for this for tracking? I'm thinking we can also add a rule to enforce proper front matter 17:52 MTDiscord How do folks feel about enforcing CI to pass before merging any PRs? Too early? 17:52 MTDiscord like something hugo would enforce or in a page style guide? 17:53 MTDiscord Both, ideally an automated enforcement before PRs are completed, with an informative error message. Not sure if it's built in to Hugo or would need to be added some other way 17:53 MTDiscord I would hope there is some way to do that 17:54 MTDiscord I also wonder if there is any way to deduplicate the initial markdown header line when the frontmatter title is defined without needing to modify the book theme 17:54 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317912690961944627/image.png?ex=67606957&is=675f17d7&hm=3949d129786de1330170d1a489188abbf36e26900973b1ffb73410fae988ee29& 17:54 MTDiscord just a bit of a minor inconvenience though 17:57 MTDiscord Nah I think title is what shows in the tab and heading 1 is what shows in the page. I'd live with it, we're pushing into premature optimization at this point I'd say 17:59 MTDiscord I would still want them to be consistent though 18:00 MTDiscord but that's for if someone wants to standardise the casing on the actual page titles... I'll lowercase all the paths so things at least won't move around then 18:01 MTDiscord - https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/40 - https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/41 18:02 MTDiscord I think the filenames convention should match the URL convention for simplicity, right, maybe just less encoding? So the filename would be docs/my-article.md 18:04 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/42 18:04 MTDiscord yeah, the filenames in the repo match the URLs they get generated to, so I'm renaming all of the files and adding titles and aliases to the front matter 18:05 MTDiscord Aliases for backwards-compatibility to dev.luanti.org or for some other reason? Isn't this site super new and WIP, or am I missing something? I guess I'm worried the aliases might be more clutter than they're worth 18:05 MTDiscord we've imported stuff from the old developer wiki and dev.minetest.net redirects to dev.luanti.org 18:05 MTDiscord Ah gotcha, makes sense. Aliases are a go from me ๐Ÿ™‚ 18:38 MTDiscord that was quite a lot: https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/43 18:39 MTDiscord not all aliases for the pages are necessary, and I will likely cull some of them for pages I imported from the voxelmanip wiki as I can just redirect those to the proper URLs when I clean things up there 18:42 MTDiscord I just went ahead and merged it. if there are more aliases necessary we can add those as 404's get discovered 18:43 MTDiscord but I think this should be a good standard going forward 18:49 MTDiscord did you pull in http api yet roller? 18:51 MTDiscord not yet, will do that 18:51 MTDiscord now that the url formatting is done, https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/blob/master/hugo.toml#L6 maybe can be removed? 18:52 MTDiscord not srue if that will affect aliases or not 18:54 MTDiscord given that the two projects are merged for better or worse. wonder if as triager i should transfer over some of the issues that are worth saving and cull the rest? 18:55 MTDiscord (minetest docs and dev wiki) 18:56 MTDiscord sounds good 18:56 MTDiscord huh, what does that do 18:56 MTDiscord > Set this to true if you use capital letters in file names 18:56 MTDiscord it allowed the shitty Random-casing_of-Titles.md 18:57 MTDiscord if it doesnt break the aliases at all, can remove it 19:25 MTDiscord honestly I'm confused what such a setting would do for a static site generator since it can't really influence how the web server will serve the pages 19:25 MTDiscord but let's see what happens if I remove it locally 19:26 MTDiscord it changes the output file names 19:26 MTDiscord so filename Random-casing_of-Titles.md becomes /random-casing_of-titles 19:27 MTDiscord rather than /Random-casing_of-Titles 19:29 MTDiscord err 19:29 MTDiscord I see. okay, yeah it doesn't affect alias redirects 20:04 MTDiscord done 20:04 MTDiscord should i just make a commit to the minetest_docs readme that says see dev.luanti.org/docs? 20:10 MTDiscord so if you have a simple edit, you may just use the edit button and do it on the main branch? 20:11 MTDiscord sure 20:11 MTDiscord nice 20:12 MTDiscord probably just say your editing something here on the off chance someone else is doing something ๐Ÿคท 20:15 MTDiscord i wish i could tell github to just keep my forks master up to date with the forks master all the time 20:22 MTDiscord merging https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/51 in 5 minutes. @rollerozxa have fun 20:23 MTDiscord don't forget the titles in the front matter 20:23 MTDiscord (also redirect time! :D) 20:24 MTDiscord whats the point of that? 20:25 MTDiscord it will make the pages stay ordered in the page list 20:25 MTDiscord (and for some pages it fixes the title it got in the pagelist, but for those pages in the PR it's just about having it be ordered properly) 20:26 MTDiscord I honestly don't know why the reordering happens though 20:26 MTDiscord fixed 20:26 MTDiscord looks good now, merge time 20:27 MTDiscord since your around, any thoughts? 20:27 MTDiscord sounds good 20:27 MTDiscord I assume this is where we will be maintaining it from now on 20:27 MTDiscord minetest_docs repo content has been moved to https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/tree/master/content/docs 20:27 MTDiscord I mean I've already started by updating the SecureRandom docs 8) 20:29 MTDiscord done 20:32 MTDiscord very satisfying getting to clear out a bunch of wiki pages with devwiki links, reminds me of the good old wiki cleanup days 20:38 MTDiscord thoughts on adding bookCollapseSection = true to our _index.md files? 20:39 MTDiscord hmm, what does that do? 20:40 MTDiscord allows the nested section to be togglable (closed by default) 20:40 MTDiscord sounds like a good idea 20:45 MTDiscord done 20:50 MTDiscord looks good 20:52 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1317957479245549568/image.png?ex=6760930d&is=675f418d&hm=5564fd07fa798dde8d8ce2737f4f573d31d22d8e5fc1ceb90d20dda21fe47e67& 20:52 MTDiscord oops. well, that's what happens if you forget the front matter 21:13 MTDiscord merging https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/pull/57 in 10 21:14 MTDiscord lgtm 21:38 MTDiscord changing content/engine/_index.md to fix dead links 21:58 MTDiscord https://dev.luanti.org/building/ is mtg-specific: It describes mtg nodes and behavior, even outside its mtg section. It also mixes up nodes/blocks. In general I'm not sure who's the target audience of that page. 21:59 MTDiscord part of wiki migration, pulling anything that has some level of potential value. then it can be redirected, burned, etc 22:00 MTDiscord And with a page called "Building", I'd expect "how to compile", not "how to place nodes" 22:00 MTDiscord we're trying to move things player related that isn't explicitly MTG related to this wiki so that it can eventually replace the regular wiki too 22:00 MTDiscord (the page should probably be called placing though) 22:01 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/15, https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/12, see dev irc discussions, zughy forum post, etc 22:05 MTDiscord I wonder if anything of value would be left in that page without the mtg stuff, and whether a "how to place nodes" page is useful to anyone 22:06 MTDiscord could be useful if contained in a "how to get started" guide 22:06 MTDiscord that's a good point to be honest 22:06 MTDiscord that whole page should probably stay on the regular wiki for now 22:20 MTDiscord now that the accessing android data page has been moved off the regular wiki I can finally expand the instructions to include some images 22:21 MTDiscord I'm really happy with how the new wiki is coming along 22:24 MTDiscord So are we agreeing to merge the minetest_docs project 22:31 MTDiscord Thats what it seems like we are doing but it doesn't look like anyone formally supported the proposal or anything 22:35 MTDiscord Unless I am misunderstanding #43 22:36 MTDiscord Sure. Complaints can be forwarded to the period of inactivity 22:38 MTDiscord Remember when celeron said that sort of thing should be a long-term goal? 22:38 MTDiscord We just disregarding that entirely? 22:39 MTDiscord No discussion on how this should actually be merged together sanely? 22:40 MTDiscord I've just mostly been importing stuff from the voxelmanip wiki today, which includes the markdown conversion of the minetest_docs contents 22:41 MTDiscord I can see that, but minetest_docs is (was?) a separate project 22:41 MTDiscord No one ever formally discussed whether they should actually be the same thing. I've only proposed it, no one on the docs team bothered to comment on the issue 22:42 MTDiscord . 22:43 MTDiscord Should != could. It's just an existing content being brought in. 22:44 MTDiscord Also side note, not sure why I couldn't reply to that on mobile 22:44 MTDiscord If you formally supported immediately merging the two projects you could say that. Here. Or on the issue. 22:45 MTDiscord Throwing away the process for the sake of moving as fast as you possibly can might not turn out how you want 22:46 MTDiscord I will admit I was slightly ๐Ÿคจ on it being brought in today, but figured ๐Ÿคท since the stuff was effectively dead 22:46 MTDiscord Maybe s/dead/inactive af 22:47 MTDiscord What is the goal of minetest_docs? What is the goal of dev.luanti.org? What are the key differences, if any? 22:47 MTDiscord This is what the issue covered 22:47 MTDiscord Would you mind re-linking the issue for clarity? 22:47 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/19 22:49 MTDiscord it's also much higher quality than most of the other stuff we brought in from the original developer wiki, and I think it sees a lot of value from being available in this format compared to being effectively hidden in the minetest_docs repo or on the voxelmanip wiki, which was intended to be a temporary storage until something like this very project happened 22:50 MTDiscord minetest_docs was supposed to be a place where we could write supplementary documentation for the Lua API in a separate repository from the engine 22:50 MTDiscord ... no, it was intended to replace the Lua API docs 22:50 MTDiscord well that was the original plan 22:50 MTDiscord It still is 22:50 MTDiscord That never changed 22:53 MTDiscord I don't think debating where the train was supposed to end is much good when it was dead on the tracks for a year? Plus 22:53 MTDiscord Well that was the question 22:53 MTDiscord Mark asked what the goal was 22:55 MTDiscord I think your issue is good for a long term goal if what to further grow to. The only that really happened was: * getting the docs out of a garbage format * making them accessible from a website * progress rather than bikesheeding like this 22:56 MTDiscord I despise the fact that this community has bikeshed so much we dont know what bikeshedding is any more 22:56 MTDiscord Minetest docs original goal: Replace the Lua API docs Something from minetest_docs, in my book: going beyond API reference material and into guides/tutorials Posted a big comment on https://github.com/minetest/dev.luanti.org/issues/19 22:58 MTDiscord minetest_docs was already in a not-garbage format (AsciiDoc), simply being hosted on a third-party wiki (as MD) because they wanted to. That's fine. But all discussion on merging that content with this one was skipped. 22:58 MTDiscord And I say "not-garbage" to AsciiDoc in the sense of "it was fine where it was" not "there arent better things" 22:59 MTDiscord I'm new to projects like this, where we all contribute in our free time, and I think it's really easy to get lost in the weeds of what is and isn't bikeshedding. I see that having an endless thread of chat messages can lead to an endless circular discussion. My goal is to "set agendas", as boring as that sounds, so conversations can stay focused and folks can feel like we're all moving forward toward a common goal That said I 22:59 MTDiscord think if folks don't want to participate in discussions like "what's the goal of this project" they, well, don't really have to. The problem is when people start committing code that confuses others, that can ruin momentum and ultimately kill projects if folks aren't on the same page Maybe I'm getting too meta, just my two cents 23:00 MTDiscord That is spot on. And exactly what is happening in other areas than just here (trying to move the project forward with zero direction or planning) 23:01 MTDiscord And I hate to be the guy pulling back on what feels like crazy good progress compared to what we are used to 23:02 MTDiscord I am one of the first people that will complain about the lack of direction or movement in this project as a whole, but I also believe in procedure and process to aid movement. 23:03 MTDiscord Yeah it's a hard spot. I think at this point we should just ask: are we OK making dev.luanti.org the "new standard" and working to merge all content from VoxelManip, minetest_docs, the Minetest wiki, and lua_api.md into it? If not, why not? I know it feels like the process was skipped in this case, but from what I've seen folks are all on the same page: dev.luanti.org is "the new standard", but maybe we've only heard from some 23:03 MTDiscord folks in the past few days instead of everyone who has thoughts on it 23:03 MTDiscord (Sorry if I'm speaking with too much confidence. Obv I'm super new to this project and community. Please let me know if I'm "out of line" or off-base, just speaking from work experience as a software engineer, not sure how applicable it is outside of "work-work") 23:04 MTDiscord It might feel like something was skipped. But in reality talking about merging the wiki has happened for years, some behind closed doors, other in public, etc. It's more some people willing to do the work have shown up 23:05 MTDiscord I am not talking about the wiki, wsor 23:05 MTDiscord I am talking about minetest_docs 23:05 MTDiscord Yeah, and I'm responding to mark, not you 23:06 MTDiscord I think in this case there has been a lot of discussion but maybe no clear consensus in writing before things just "started happening", esp with dev.luanti.org? For me I have no expectations, being new, and I don't mean to speak on Xenith's behalf, but I can kinda see where he's coming from. Gotta walk the dog now, back in ~30 minutes 23:06 MTDiscord For what it's worth, I'm very OK making dev.luanti.org the "new standard" 23:08 MTDiscord Looking at worst case right? Say some agreement is reached on something that isn't dev.luanti.org. it can just be redirected to 23:08 MTDiscord Things "just happening" in order to get started is fine, and kind of how it has to happen around here. I am just concerned that the starting mentality may be carrying too strong into regular continuation 23:09 MTDiscord And once again, I am obviously a huge proponent of merging them all. I was the one who opened that issue in the first place. 23:10 MTDiscord Its just setting off a lot of red flags when we have active discussion issues that get bypassed almost immediately (the Minetest Wiki discussion, minetest_docs discussion) 23:11 MTDiscord Again, I was kinda ๐Ÿคจ at first, but then decided I didn't care so much since it wasn't really going to hurt anything 23:12 MTDiscord I also saw the discussion earlier about removing PR requirements for trusted contributors, which would be fine after a project has found its footing and direction, but I am not certain this one has yet (clearly) 23:12 MTDiscord I once posted a question on a pull request to an open source project asking about what I thought looked like a bug. My question was ignored and the pull request was merged. Then they discovered the bug I'd been asking about and had to go back and patch it. 23:12 MTDiscord This repo never had rules 23:12 MTDiscord Leave other people's discussions unended and that is what will begin to happen. 23:13 MTDiscord Ok, it should. 23:14 MTDiscord Can we at least give people a chance to object to merging the repositories? If no one objects I'd say merge them. 23:14 MTDiscord That was already skipped 23:14 MTDiscord I'm going to dm you green 23:14 MTDiscord They have been merged 23:15 MTDiscord Ok, not much use arguing about it, then. 23:15 MTDiscord We arent 23:15 MTDiscord But for future decisions let's not make big organizational changes without giving people the option to object to it. 23:15 MTDiscord That is what I am raising concerns about. The lack of procedure. 23:16 MTDiscord (For the third time, I am the one who suggested they be merged in the first place, so I obviously dont mind them being merged) 23:16 MTDiscord Do we have procedures celeron55 and the core devs have in place that we can reflect? Green is right, we need procedure in place. It's not just about effective organization, it's about the health of the community. 23:17 MTDiscord Worst case, someday someone will do something that makes somebody angry, whether it's worth being angry over or not, and it'll destroy the project and it'll die on the tracks with everyone refusing to contribute. 23:17 MTDiscord They dont have many procedures, and what they do have isnt particularly relevant to a documentation project 23:19 MTDiscord Is it helpful for me to propose having celeron55 appoint someone to make organizational decisions, or present rules for how to appoint someone? 23:20 MTDiscord Or two people. It just needs to be few enough people that if we start bike-shedding someone can authoritatively stop it and make a decision. 23:22 MTDiscord On an unrelated note, can we put compilation docs in the new repo? I think it'd be an appropriate place to put the stuff Mark wrote, as well as additional information, potentially. 23:35 MTDiscord I think discussions in code repos are critical as things might break, but doc repos should be a bit more lax as things are probably 10x simpler compared to code. Having an authoritative "stop talking" guy sounds like that guy will become hated and not valuable, honestly. I'm more in favor of individual patience and maybe coming up with community guidelines instead of centralizing authority in some guy. BDFNs are great for some 23:35 MTDiscord things but not for this, IMO. I think dev.luanti.org needs a mission statement, and that statement should be "the new standard for all Luanti documentation" That said, I think it is premature to start deleting/actively redirecting other wikis and doc pages to dev.luanti.org (DLO), as DLO is too new for that. Time for grocery shopping for me 23:43 MTDiscord It's worth clarifying that dlo isn't new, it's just bringing in existing content and centralizing it with a bit of house keeping regarding what not to touch to save effort 23:44 MTDiscord @rollerozxa Are you planning to work on enforcing the front matter layout with Hugo? And it may be a lot to ask, but are you willing to teach me how that works? 23:46 MTDiscord wsor got this plane off the ground, so for right now he is the pilot until we reach cruising altitude. To be specific, once the initial plan is complete (getting the dev wiki and player/VM wiki merged), we can focus more on organization and further direction. This project is entirely under the Docs Team, so its up to us to communicate with each other and make compromises as we can. The initial takeoff might be rough, but that's 23:46 MTDiscord fine, and what's most important is setting clear expectations. Whether or not we have contributing guidelines or merge rules right now, clear expectations will make this smoother. And right now the expectation is to keep momentum going through the initial hurdles that were planned. 23:48 MTDiscord Ok, then in line with that objective, can we forgive wsor's merge? 23:49 rubenwardy for your own sanity, I'd suggest limiting the scope and avoiding too much redundant information there that will quickly become outdated 23:49 MTDiscord IRC jumpscare 23:52 MTDiscord I think it was Roller's but yes, I am cool with it. I am sorry if it felt like I was criticizing @rollerozxa specifically for doing this or wsor for letting it happen. I don't blame either of them; my main concern was establishing procedures, but I didn't define that expectation clearly. Now that I understand others' expectations, I am more comfortable. 23:54 MTDiscord I believe that was an existing page on the original wiki? Im... actually not sure why it isnt here 23:54 MTDiscord It was definitely there before 23:54 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/1318003349836271676/image.png?ex=6760bdc5&is=675f6c45&hm=a9f151fc0a796294644cf6f7579cc83ede1a5a732bdea462f6de445e1312cae6& 23:55 MTDiscord Wait, why do we have instructions on the Wiki and in the Luanti repo? 23:56 MTDiscord The wiki page may have pointed to the repo 23:56 MTDiscord This is one of those things that should probably live in the repo but be imported automatically into the wiki 23:56 MTDiscord Oh, great, we do have instructions for MSYS2 on the new wiki. 23:57 MTDiscord Arguably that should be in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/compiling/windows.md but we can attend to that later 23:58 MTDiscord https://dev.luanti.org/Compiling_Luanti came up when I did a Google search. 23:58 MTDiscord Yes, as seen above 23:59 MTDiscord It 404s because it doesnt exist on the migrated version. But that may be because the original only linked to the repo 23:59 MTDiscord rubenwardy: Is there information you are referring to in particular?