Time Nick Message 00:10 MTDiscord You should practice with tortoise git. It babies you though the process of rebasing so much faster than command line and reference doc lookup 01:51 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15 ready for review 02:15 MTDiscord I mean, I've rebased before I just don't work with multiple ongoing PRs..ever, so this is a good learning experience 02:15 MTDiscord Remembering which command to do when is half the battle with git 02:20 MTDiscord @wsor Will review tonight 02:20 MTDiscord thanks 04:18 MTDiscord I kind of mentioned this before, but I think avoiding big rebases etc. leads to more efficient development. 04:19 MTDiscord If the PR depends on new master commits, I think the scope of the PR is shifting in the wrong direction. 04:20 MTDiscord A cleaner solution would be to merge the PR first, and then do the other changes as a second PR. 04:28 MTDiscord I mean, if files haven't been touched then it's a one liner and you're done and can merge cleanly. 04:28 MTDiscord done debating in programing benrob? 04:29 MTDiscord For the time being, onto reviewing your PR 04:30 MTDiscord Which one, all of yours still have the WIP tag 04:33 MTDiscord oh right, 15 04:38 MTDiscord interesting, github makes you resolve a master comment even if you have taken care of the suggestions 04:46 MTDiscord @wsor Gave a couple general suggestions (and one grammar fix). Feel free to discuss on the issue. 04:51 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777822254 doesnt feel right tbh, like i bulleted pointed it because it was a subsection of the api call 04:52 MTDiscord wasnt the best idea, but i wasnt sure on the best way to other was indent or mark that 04:57 MTDiscord @Benbob0329 ^ 04:59 MTDiscord "doesn't feel right" doesn't help me make it better, do you have an alternate suggestion? 05:00 MTDiscord it feels like its own random lines out in free space, hence suggested indents 05:01 MTDiscord but asciidocs doesnt support those nicely that i can see 05:02 MTDiscord i mean i can indent them futher with a different type of bullet, but thats it 05:03 MTDiscord I don't think that bullet points are the right tool here, at least not like that. If giving multiple steps it can be, but for this I think that a wordy explanation is clearest. 05:03 MTDiscord sure, but there really isnt a better formatting thing 05:03 MTDiscord that i know of anyways 05:03 MTDiscord Source or rendered? 05:04 MTDiscord already tried source, makes it way smaller 05:04 MTDiscord no no, looking at the source or the render? 05:04 MTDiscord This is what my vector doc looks like, for example: 05:04 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/927789682601885816/unknown.png 05:05 MTDiscord yeah, text without a bullet should be indented 05:05 MTDiscord But why though? Thats what headers are for 05:05 MTDiscord to imply its subjected to the header 05:05 MTDiscord this isn't programming, this is english 05:06 MTDiscord We don't tend to indent things under a header without good reason 05:06 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/927790127911153724/unknown.png 05:07 MTDiscord does asciidoc have a indent formating? 05:08 MTDiscord Well for one thing, you're not writing complete sentences, and secondly that last line should probably be a TIP: 05:08 MTDiscord but that function is literally right in plain site, right after that one, so that seems unneeded 05:09 MTDiscord the point was to highlight no bullets vs bullet, not content changing 05:09 MTDiscord and completely ignored the question 05:09 MTDiscord I don't know off the top of my head, let me check 05:11 MTDiscord prefix [indent=1] before the new block (paragraph) 05:11 MTDiscord line before 05:12 MTDiscord hmm, maybe not for general text 05:12 MTDiscord doesnt work 05:12 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/927791546164715560/unknown.png 05:12 MTDiscord already tried that 05:13 MTDiscord you could use a verse block 05:13 MTDiscord [verse] 05:14 MTDiscord I think that there is (or should be) a preserve_indent like there is an option to preserve linebreaks 05:14 MTDiscord Hm, no that changes the styl 05:15 MTDiscord not really a controlable indentation 05:15 MTDiscord it'll preserve indents 05:16 MTDiscord Nope, I don't see an option to indent the block cleanly. 05:16 MTDiscord But again, that would be really weird in English. 05:17 MTDiscord > Returns a reference for use with <>. Creates the channel if it does not exists and joins the chanel. . s/creates/intializes or to technical? 05:18 MTDiscord Creates is fine, initialises is unnecessary 05:19 MTDiscord I think that "returns a reference" is bad though, a reference to what? I know it's a table reference because I know that all tables are references, but that's not useful here. 05:19 MTDiscord It returns an object, a modchannel object specifically 05:19 MTDiscord also is there a way to make tip/note/etc not so huge? 05:19 MTDiscord Styling, we'll get to that later 05:20 MTDiscord That'll have more to do with our eventual web render 05:20 MTDiscord and how does one do that? 05:20 MTDiscord or does that require css? 05:21 MTDiscord That will require CSS because it's not defined by the language, it'll be a part of whatever HTML generator or template we use/write 05:21 MTDiscord >I think that "returns a reference" is bad though, a reference to what? maybe ya know, read the rest of the sentence? 05:21 MTDiscord ah ok, thanks 05:22 MTDiscord so s/reference/object? 05:22 MTDiscord please 05:22 MTDiscord object or channel object? ones i more descriptive, but could screw people into thinking there is types 05:23 MTDiscord just object is probably fine 05:24 MTDiscord I mean, we should use language people are going to encounter, to calling it a table (or userdata) might give them fewer surprises, but at the same time it's a lot less useful to read in general. 05:25 MTDiscord What I did for vector was explain that vector is a table with methods, and then just call vector objects vectors 05:25 MTDiscord I'm not sure what's better overall though 05:26 MTDiscord ok, look good to you? 05:26 MTDiscord lol, github renders tip and note differently 05:26 MTDiscord much better in my opinion 05:27 MTDiscord oh, im a idiot 05:27 MTDiscord hold on 05:28 MTDiscord ok, tweaked a missed ref to channel object 05:28 MTDiscord ^ again 05:29 MTDiscord ya know, i should do this when im more awake 05:29 MTDiscord We all should, but here we are 05:29 MTDiscord Will re-review 05:30 MTDiscord one sec 05:31 MTDiscord there, styling 05:31 MTDiscord thanks 05:32 MTDiscord >The message will drop if channel is not writable or invalid . s/drop/fail to send ? can comment that in your review 05:39 MTDiscord re-reviewed 05:43 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777836313 ...... similar to what? 05:43 MTDiscord the server-side function 05:44 MTDiscord Sorry, should have specified 05:45 MTDiscord also https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777835058 05:47 MTDiscord >This allows a function to be executed when a message is received on the channel. 05:47 MTDiscord good enough? 05:47 MTDiscord Ok, but why would I want to do that? 05:48 MTDiscord hell i know, its a function, you can do whatever the heck you want 05:49 MTDiscord i could add in based on message recieved 05:49 MTDiscord or something 05:49 MTDiscord or with inputs 05:49 MTDiscord dunno 05:49 MTDiscord got suggestions? 05:50 MTDiscord "Used for handling messages received from the client." I think is probably as good as we can do without an example use case 05:50 MTDiscord this allows you to shill draconis every time you send a message to the client 05:51 MTDiscord good enough, thanks 05:53 MTDiscord could you review again benrob? 05:55 MTDiscord also whoever does base64 encode or sha1 encode should encode the rickroll link as a example output and see how long it takes someone to crack it 05:56 MTDiscord seems like the perfect job for mnh48 or greenxenith 05:58 MTDiscord hopefully this is the last time 06:04 MTDiscord done 06:05 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777843774 am i missing why this isnt a one line change? 06:06 MTDiscord I was going to comment, decided to just suggest a change and cba to redo the comment 06:07 MTDiscord ok, done 06:09 MTDiscord just committed your suggestions, so ready for review 06:13 MTDiscord one small thing 06:13 MTDiscord you forgot a newline 06:15 MTDiscord technically you did 06:16 MTDiscord fair 06:16 MTDiscord mergable now? 06:16 MTDiscord yes 06:17 MTDiscord ok, merge it since i probably shouldnt hit the button 06:19 MTDiscord thanks 06:19 MTDiscord np 18:00 MTDiscord Quick note, @Minetest Docs Team: Please don't start any more docs until we get the current set of PRs, and some+writing guidelines out of the way. 18:11 MTDiscord This page (while not entirely applicable here) has some good info on writing clearly and concisely when it's easy to muddy things up: https://www.plainenglish.co.uk/how-to-write-in-plain-english.html 18:12 MTDiscord Its aimed mostly at bureaucrats, but I think that we can learn from it nevertheless. 19:18 MTDiscord > To avoid taking the blame - 'a mistake was made' (passive) rather than 'we made a mistake' (active). 19:19 MTDiscord The authors of this page have taken great care to write plainly and teach well, but their application here is deserving of some doubt. 19:24 MTDiscord > 19:24 MTDiscord > If you are going to apologise, do so early. If the problem is your fault, say so. 19:25 MTDiscord They did say this, to their credit. ? 21:46 MTDiscord BTW @GreenXenith I think that we're past the initial lump of tiny commits, you could probably add us to #feeds if you wanted. 21:57 MTDiscord what is our access level set to? I cant access repo settings 21:58 MTDiscord Good question, I'll check in a minute I'm skimming through the object properties PR right now 22:09 MTDiscord I like how none of the current/proposed documentation even tries to follow the standard template 22:10 MTDiscord :hidethepain: 22:10 MTDiscord We've only been here for 3 days, we'll have consistency don't worry. 22:10 MTDiscord Honestly the template came too early, it's more of a demonstration of how to use AsciiDoc right now than an agreed upon format. 22:11 MTDiscord its a better format than whatever people are trying to use right now 22:11 MTDiscord but I digress 22:11 MTDiscord It also doesn't specify a lot of cases 22:11 MTDiscord Indeed 22:12 MTDiscord Anyways, I think that the vector PR is almost ready if you want to review that 22:12 MTDiscord I think, knowing me I have more stupid mistake in there 22:12 MTDiscord We need two things: Overhaul the standard template to have more coverage and notes with an agreed upon format, and include a second document about how to write good documentation 22:12 MTDiscord Agreed 22:13 MTDiscord Use the second document to rewrite itself so it can also be good documentation. 22:13 MTDiscord My personal goal is to get the current PRs merged, then get everyone to mostly agree on a standard format, then have a PR to fix the existing docs, then me more critical of new PRs. 22:14 MTDiscord Also using a more relatable example instead of pomegranates would probably be helpful 22:14 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/mercury-retrograde-gif-14506375 22:14 MTDiscord Embrace the weird fruit seed things 22:15 MTDiscord Dont get me wrong, using exotic foods as foobars is one of my favorite pastimes, but in this context it isnt very helpful 22:17 MTDiscord Im inclined to approve any current PR as long as the information is accurate enough and not care about structure/grammar/style since they are going to be fixed later 22:17 MTDiscord (How did everyone miss "Due note that" at the top of the vector page??) 22:17 MTDiscord Yea the pomegranate isnt very helpful, specifically for my pr as object properties is basically just a huge table, no functions or anything so i was treading undiscovered ground metaphorically 22:18 MTDiscord sailing uncharted waters ;p 22:18 MTDiscord Thats what i wanted lol ty 22:18 MTDiscord hahaha "due" note that, whoops 22:18 MTDiscord The pomegranate example is fine IMO 22:19 MTDiscord Your opinion has been duly noted and discarded 22:19 MTDiscord Your discarding of my opinion has been discarded 22:19 MTDiscord https://c.tenor.com/OBQA8z0B8swAAAAM/trash-garbage-truck.gif 22:20 MTDiscord My quip was funner because it has contextual irony 22:20 MTDiscord funnier* 22:20 MTDiscord Stupid gif wont load 22:20 MTDiscord it loaded for us 22:20 MTDiscord Welp 22:20 MTDiscord Nvm then 22:20 MTDiscord anyway, moving on 22:21 MTDiscord Btw, quite a few people signed up for this project but have been silent since, anyone heard anything? 22:21 MTDiscord People such sa? 22:21 MTDiscord as* 22:21 MTDiscord Erelhmann 22:21 MTDiscord Or however you spell his name 22:21 MTDiscord Erlehmann 22:21 MTDiscord Its right after the holidays, a few people are likely busy with work 22:22 MTDiscord Fair enough 22:22 MTDiscord Pomegranates are better than foobars or the like 22:22 MTDiscord Theres a missing case for vector.new: if a is a number and other params are nil 22:22 MTDiscord Sorry j45, left a huge review on your PR 22:23 MTDiscord Welp even more huge reviews lol 22:23 MTDiscord in latest master vector.new(a) -> {x = a, y = a, z = a}, iirc 22:23 MTDiscord let me pull real quick 22:26 MTDiscord No, looks like it just depricated the other two styles 22:26 MTDiscord ie you're not supposed to use it as vector.copy or vector.zero now 22:27 MTDiscord I must be remembering vector.zero 22:27 MTDiscord vector.new(a) should do that though, Im annoyed that it doesnt yet ? 22:27 MTDiscord Anyways, I guess I should remove the deprecated calls, no? 22:28 MTDiscord No? 22:28 MTDiscord Deprecate them 22:28 MTDiscord Fair 22:28 MTDiscord We should have a deprecated tag like warning or whatever 22:30 MTDiscord I'll add a macro 22:31 MTDiscord Anyway, information looks fine to me. Again, im going to ignore most grammar/structure/design for now 22:33 MTDiscord I can approve it if you'd like me to 22:34 MTDiscord lemme fix those couple things 22:35 MTDiscord looks like macros can't define the block type 22:35 MTDiscord But we can have a general blurb at least 22:37 MTDiscord aight 22:37 MTDiscord Id like to move on to standardization after #11 and #12 are merged. #6 and #10 are going to take a while, #13 is weird, and I really dont like where #17 is right now 22:39 MTDiscord BTW @ROllerozxa standard AsciiDoc style is to group table cells into blocks/paragraphs, rather than try to smash them all onto one line for each row. 22:40 MTDiscord I think that'd be clearer for your format table anyways 22:41 MTDiscord also the object props doc looks good enough to me, so as far as I am concerned both 11 and 12 can be approved 22:41 MTDiscord Agreed, #10 can take quite a while. 22:41 MTDiscord Id guess formspecs will take far longer though 22:41 MTDiscord What is weird about #13 though? 22:42 MTDiscord Is it the varying levels of detail? 22:42 MTDiscord the entire way the information is presented feels off 22:42 MTDiscord but I suppose it can be fixed post-standardization 22:43 MTDiscord either way, I want to move on to standardization sooner rather than later 22:44 MTDiscord can I approve it now? 22:44 MTDiscord yes 22:45 MTDiscord done 22:45 MTDiscord should I merge it? 22:45 MTDiscord actually 22:45 MTDiscord before I merge it 22:45 MTDiscord or whoever merges it 22:45 MTDiscord repo access settings 22:45 MTDiscord right right 22:46 MTDiscord https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/docs/members 22:46 MTDiscord DON'T MERGE 22:46 MTDiscord yeah, we arent yet 22:46 MTDiscord we just said that 22:46 MTDiscord alright 22:46 MTDiscord a simple ping would have sufficed 22:47 MTDiscord haha, so none of us are maintainers? 22:47 MTDiscord nope 22:47 MTDiscord which means none of us have access to the repo settings? 22:47 MTDiscord glorious 22:47 MTDiscord bruh moment 22:48 MTDiscord I mean, is this more or less than you can see? 22:48 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/928057270313562122/unknown.png 22:48 MTDiscord oh, you can see more than me 22:48 MTDiscord strange 22:48 MTDiscord anyways, what do you need set? 22:48 MTDiscord I dont even have a settings tab 22:48 MTDiscord you dont have access to the integration section 22:49 MTDiscord also, I disabled Wikis...because that's redundant here 22:50 MTDiscord well, guess it can be merged then 22:51 MTDiscord unless lmd has something to say 22:51 MTDiscord @Luatic 22:52 MTDiscord I have, wait 22:52 MTDiscord While I wait, @Benbob0329 is the objprop pr mergable? 22:52 MTDiscord I don't think so yet 22:53 MTDiscord Oh well, Im going to start on standardizing anyway 22:53 MTDiscord I mean, you can start working on it whenever, I just wanted to give a scope for the chaos 22:53 MTDiscord I have submitted my review. 22:54 MTDiscord > Basically this is table.copy plus metatable 22:54 MTDiscord useless information 22:55 MTDiscord comment on the PR please 22:55 MTDiscord aight 22:55 MTDiscord No. Modders might think they could use either. 22:55 MTDiscord The purpose of this org is to go beyond what lua_api.txt has to say 22:55 MTDiscord Then your wording needs help 22:55 MTDiscord It does 22:55 MTDiscord "this is not the same as table.copy" 22:56 MTDiscord Isn't the metatable thing covered towards the top? 22:56 MTDiscord In the big note I wrote on it 22:56 MTDiscord the metatable note in his comment is a mislead 22:56 MTDiscord his point is that vector.copy does more than just table.copy 22:56 MTDiscord No no, I mention that 22:56 MTDiscord you mention it in vector.copy? 22:56 MTDiscord > Do note that functions here will accept an old-style (non-metatable) vector, but you cannot perform metatable operations with said vector. 22:57 MTDiscord that is not what we are talking about 22:57 MTDiscord I'm just saying that vector.copy could go without a note if it just did what you describe 22:57 MTDiscord But it does more than just table.copy as it also sets the metatable 22:57 MTDiscord the note is that vector.copy is not equivalent to table.copy but some people may think so because it is a table 22:57 MTDiscord ^ 22:57 MTDiscord Fair 22:58 MTDiscord All you have to say is "This is not equivalent to table.copy" 22:58 MTDiscord Dunno if that's worth a WARNING or a TIP 22:58 MTDiscord You too argue about the review for a few, I need to go count my chicken (after they've hatched) 22:58 MTDiscord Actual chickens? 22:58 MTDiscord Due too 22:59 MTDiscord :] 22:59 MTDiscord Actual chickens 23:00 MTDiscord Anyway, I agree with all his points 23:01 MTDiscord How exactly do we plan to structure the style guide discussion? 23:01 MTDiscord Just a discussion issue? 23:01 MTDiscord probably a PR so we have a file to iterate on 23:01 MTDiscord Im reworking the template right now 23:18 MTDiscord Meat or egg? 23:41 MTDiscord Both, actually 23:47 MTDiscord Note: I'm resolving issues as I go, before pushing so that I can remember what all I've done 23:50 MTDiscord Small grumble: Why doesn't the Lua 5.1 reference document the return types clearly? 23:50 MTDiscord Unless my PDF version of it is messed up somehow