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IRC log for #minetest-docs, 2022-01-04

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Time Nick Message
00:10 MTDiscord <exe_virus> You should practice with tortoise git. It babies you though the process of rebasing so much faster than command line and reference doc lookup
01:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15 ready for review
02:15 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I mean, I've rebased before I just don't work with multiple ongoing PRs..ever, so this is a good learning experience
02:15 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Remembering which command to do when is half the battle with git
02:20 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> @wsor Will review tonight
02:20 MTDiscord <Jonathon> thanks
04:18 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I kind of mentioned this before, but I think avoiding big rebases etc. leads to more efficient development.
04:19 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If the PR depends on new master commits, I think the scope of the PR is shifting in the wrong direction.
04:20 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> A cleaner solution would be to merge the PR first, and then do the other changes as a second PR.
04:28 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I mean, if files haven't been touched then it's a one liner and you're done and can merge cleanly.
04:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> done debating in programing benrob?
04:29 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> For the time being, onto reviewing your PR
04:30 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Which one, all of yours still have the WIP tag
04:33 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> oh right, 15
04:38 MTDiscord <Jonathon> interesting, github makes you resolve a master comment even if you have taken care of the suggestions
04:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> @wsor Gave a couple general suggestions (and one grammar fix). Feel free to discuss on the issue.
04:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777822254 doesnt feel right tbh, like i bulleted pointed it because it was a subsection of the api call
04:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> wasnt the best idea, but i wasnt sure on the best way to other was indent or mark that
04:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> @Benbob0329 ^
04:59 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> "doesn't feel right" doesn't help me make it better, do you have an alternate suggestion?
05:00 MTDiscord joined #minetest-docs
05:00 MTDiscord <Jonathon> it feels like its own random lines out in free space, hence suggested indents
05:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> but asciidocs doesnt support those nicely that i can see
05:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i mean i can indent them futher with a different type of bullet, but thats it
05:03 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I don't think that bullet points are the right tool here, at least not like that. If giving multiple steps it can be, but for this I think that a wordy explanation is clearest.
05:03 MTDiscord <Jonathon> sure, but there really isnt a better formatting thing
05:03 MTDiscord <Jonathon> that i know of anyways
05:03 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Source or rendered?
05:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> already tried source, makes it way smaller
05:04 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> no no, looking at the source or the render?
05:04 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> This is what my vector doc looks like, for example:
05:04 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/927789682601885816/unknown.png
05:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yeah, text without a bullet should be indented
05:05 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> But why though? Thats what headers are for
05:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> to imply its subjected to the header
05:05 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> this isn't programming, this is english
05:06 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> We don't tend to indent things under a header without good reason
05:06 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/927790127911153724/unknown.png
05:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> does asciidoc have a indent formating?
05:08 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Well for one thing, you're not writing complete sentences, and secondly that last line should probably be a TIP:
05:08 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> but that function is literally right in plain site, right after that one, so that seems unneeded
05:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> the point was to highlight no bullets vs bullet, not content changing
05:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and completely ignored the question
05:09 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I don't know off the top of my head, let me check
05:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> prefix [indent=1] before the new block (paragraph)
05:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> line before
05:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> hmm, maybe not for general text
05:12 MTDiscord <Jonathon> doesnt work
05:12 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/927791546164715560/unknown.png
05:12 MTDiscord <Jonathon> already tried that
05:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> you could use a verse block
05:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> [verse]
05:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I think that there is (or should be) a preserve_indent like there is an option to preserve linebreaks
05:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Hm, no that changes the styl
05:15 MTDiscord <Jonathon> not really a controlable indentation
05:15 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> it'll preserve indents
05:16 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Nope, I don't see an option to indent the block cleanly.
05:16 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> But again, that would be really weird in English.
05:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> > Returns a reference for use with <<Methods>>. Creates the channel if it does not exists and joins the chanel. . s/creates/intializes or to technical?
05:18 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Creates is fine, initialises is unnecessary
05:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I think that "returns a reference" is bad though, a reference to what? I know it's a table reference because I know that all tables are references, but that's not useful here.
05:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It returns an object, a modchannel object specifically
05:19 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also is there a way to make tip/note/etc not so huge?
05:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Styling, we'll get to that later
05:20 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> That'll have more to do with our eventual web render
05:20 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and how does one do that?
05:20 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or does that require css?
05:21 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> That will require CSS because it's not defined by the language, it'll be a part of whatever HTML generator or template we use/write
05:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >I think that "returns a reference" is bad though, a reference to what? maybe ya know, read the rest of the sentence?
05:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ah ok, thanks
05:22 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so s/reference/object?
05:22 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> please
05:22 MTDiscord <Jonathon> object or channel object? ones i more descriptive, but could screw people into thinking there is types
05:23 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> just object is probably fine
05:24 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I mean, we should use language people are going to encounter, to calling it a table (or userdata) might give them fewer surprises, but at the same time it's a lot less useful to read in general.
05:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> What I did for vector was explain that vector is a table with methods, and then just call vector objects vectors
05:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'm not sure what's better overall though
05:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ok, look good to you?
05:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> lol, github renders tip and note differently
05:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> much better in my opinion
05:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> oh, im a idiot
05:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hold on
05:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ok, tweaked a missed ref to channel object
05:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^ again
05:29 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ya know, i should do this when im more awake
05:29 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> We all should, but here we are
05:29 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Will re-review
05:30 MTDiscord <Jonathon> one sec
05:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> there, styling
05:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> thanks
05:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >The message will drop if channel is not writable or invalid  . s/drop/fail to send ? can comment that in your review
05:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> re-reviewed
05:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777836313 ...... similar to what?
05:43 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> the server-side function
05:44 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Sorry, should have specified
05:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777835058
05:47 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >This allows a function to be executed when a message is received on the channel.
05:47 MTDiscord <Jonathon> good enough?
05:47 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Ok, but why would I want to do that?
05:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hell i know, its a function, you can do whatever the heck you want
05:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i could add in based on message recieved
05:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or something
05:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or with inputs
05:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> dunno
05:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> got suggestions?
05:50 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> "Used for handling messages received from the client." I think is probably as good as we can do without an example use case
05:50 MTDiscord <Jonathon> this allows you to shill draconis every time you send a message to the client
05:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> good enough, thanks
05:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> could you review again benrob?
05:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also whoever does base64 encode or sha1 encode should encode the rickroll link as a example output and see how long it takes someone to crack it
05:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems like the perfect job for mnh48 or greenxenith
05:58 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hopefully this is the last time
06:04 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> done
06:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/pull/15#discussion_r777843774 am i missing why this isnt a one line change?
06:06 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I was going to comment, decided to just suggest a change and cba to redo the comment
06:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ok, done
06:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> just committed your suggestions, so ready for review
06:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> one small thing
06:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> you forgot a newline
06:15 MTDiscord <Jonathon> technically you did
06:16 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> fair
06:16 MTDiscord <Jonathon> mergable now?
06:16 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> yes
06:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ok, merge it since i probably shouldnt hit the button
06:19 MTDiscord <Jonathon> thanks
06:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> np
10:28 appguru joined #minetest-docs
18:00 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Quick note, @Minetest Docs Team: Please don't start any more docs until we get the current set of PRs, and some+writing guidelines out of the way.
18:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> This page (while not entirely applicable here) has some good info on writing clearly and concisely when it's easy to muddy things up: https://www.plainenglish.co.uk/how-to-write-in-plain-english.html
18:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Its aimed mostly at bureaucrats, but I think that we can learn from it nevertheless.
19:18 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> > To avoid taking the blame - 'a mistake was made' (passive) rather than 'we made a mistake' (active).
19:19 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The authors of this page have taken great care to write plainly and teach well, but their application here is deserving of some doubt.
19:24 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> >
19:24 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> > If you are going to apologise, do so early. If the problem is your fault, say so.
19:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> They did say this, to their credit. 😃
21:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> BTW @GreenXenith I think that we're past the initial lump of tiny commits, you could probably add us to #feeds if you wanted.
21:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> what is our access level set to? I cant access repo settings
21:58 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Good question, I'll check in a minute I'm skimming through the object properties PR right now
22:09 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I like how none of the current/proposed documentation even tries to follow the standard template
22:10 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> :hidethepain:
22:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> We've only been here for 3 days, we'll have consistency don't worry.
22:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Honestly the template came too early, it's more of a demonstration of how to use AsciiDoc right now than an agreed upon format.
22:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> its a better format than whatever people are trying to use right now
22:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> but I digress
22:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It also doesn't specify a lot of cases
22:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Indeed
22:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Anyways, I think that the vector PR is almost ready if you want to review that
22:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I think, knowing me I have more stupid mistake in there
22:12 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> We need two things: Overhaul the standard template to have more coverage and notes with an agreed upon format, and include a second document about how to write good documentation
22:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Agreed
22:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Use the second document to rewrite itself so it can also be good documentation.
22:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> My personal goal is to get the current PRs merged, then get everyone to mostly agree on a standard format, then have a PR to fix the existing docs, then me more critical of new PRs.
22:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Also using a more relatable example instead of pomegranates would probably be helpful
22:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> https://tenor.com/view/mercury-retrograde-gif-14506375
22:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Embrace the weird fruit seed things
22:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Dont get me wrong, using exotic foods as foobars is one of my favorite pastimes, but in this context it isnt very helpful
22:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Im inclined to approve any current PR as long as the information is accurate enough and not care about structure/grammar/style since they are going to be fixed later
22:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> (How did everyone miss "Due note that" at the top of the vector page??)
22:17 MTDiscord <j45> Yea the pomegranate isnt very helpful, specifically for my pr as object properties is basically just a huge table, no functions or anything so i was treading undiscovered ground metaphorically
22:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> sailing uncharted waters ;p
22:18 MTDiscord <j45> Thats what i wanted lol ty
22:18 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> hahaha "due" note that, whoops
22:18 MTDiscord <luatic> The pomegranate example is fine IMO
22:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Your opinion has been duly noted and discarded
22:19 MTDiscord <luatic> Your discarding of my opinion has been discarded
22:19 MTDiscord <j45> https://c.tenor.com/OBQA8z0B8swAAAAM/trash-garbage-truck.gif
22:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> My quip was funner because it has contextual irony
22:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> funnier*
22:20 MTDiscord <j45> Stupid gif wont load
22:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> it loaded for us
22:20 MTDiscord <j45> Welp
22:20 MTDiscord <j45> Nvm then
22:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> anyway, moving on
22:21 MTDiscord <j45> Btw, quite a few people signed up for this project but have been silent since, anyone heard anything?
22:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> People such sa?
22:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> as*
22:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Erelhmann
22:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Or however you spell his name
22:21 MTDiscord <j45> Erlehmann
22:21 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Its right after the holidays, a few people are likely busy with work
22:22 MTDiscord <j45> Fair enough
22:22 MTDiscord <luatic> Pomegranates are better than foobars or the like
22:22 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Theres a missing case for vector.new: if a is a number and other params are nil
22:22 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Sorry j45, left a huge review on your PR
22:23 MTDiscord <j45> Welp even more huge reviews lol
22:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> in latest master vector.new(a) -> {x = a, y = a, z = a}, iirc
22:23 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> let me pull real quick
22:24 appguru joined #minetest-docs
22:26 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> No, looks like it just depricated the other two styles
22:26 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> ie you're not supposed to use it as vector.copy or vector.zero now
22:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I must be remembering vector.zero
22:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> vector.new(a) should do that though, Im annoyed that it doesnt yet 😒
22:27 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Anyways, I guess I should remove the deprecated calls, no?
22:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> No?
22:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Deprecate them
22:28 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Fair
22:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> We should have a deprecated tag like warning or whatever
22:30 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'll add a macro
22:31 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Anyway, information looks fine to me. Again, im going to ignore most grammar/structure/design for now
22:33 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I can approve it if you'd like me to
22:34 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> lemme fix those couple things
22:35 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> looks like macros can't define the block type
22:35 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> But we can have a general blurb at least
22:37 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> aight
22:37 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Id like to move on to standardization after #11 and #12 are merged. #6 and #10 are going to take a while, #13 is weird, and I really dont like where #17 is right now
22:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> BTW @ROllerozxa standard AsciiDoc style is to group table cells into blocks/paragraphs, rather than try to smash them all onto one line for each row.
22:40 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I think that'd be clearer for your format table anyways
22:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> also the object props doc looks good enough to me, so as far as I am concerned both 11 and 12 can be approved
22:41 MTDiscord <luatic> Agreed, #10 can take quite a while.
22:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Id guess formspecs will take far longer though
22:41 MTDiscord <luatic> What is weird about #13 though?
22:42 MTDiscord <luatic> Is it the varying levels of detail?
22:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> the entire way the information is presented feels off
22:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> but I suppose it can be fixed post-standardization
22:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> either way, I want to move on to standardization sooner rather than later
22:44 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> can I approve it now?
22:44 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> yes
22:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> done
22:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> should I merge it?
22:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> actually
22:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> before I merge it
22:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> or whoever merges it
22:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> repo access settings
22:45 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> right right
22:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/docs/members
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> DON'T MERGE
22:46 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> yeah, we arent yet
22:46 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> we just said that
22:46 MTDiscord <luatic> alright
22:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> a simple ping would have sufficed
22:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> haha, so none of us are maintainers?
22:47 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> nope
22:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> which means none of us have access to the repo settings?
22:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> glorious
22:47 MTDiscord <luatic> bruh moment
22:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I mean, is this more or less than you can see?
22:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/926231483155378176/928057270313562122/unknown.png
22:48 GreenXenith joined #minetest-docs
22:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> oh, you can see more than me
22:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> strange
22:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> anyways, what do you need set?
22:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I dont even have a settings tab
22:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> you dont have access to the integration section
22:49 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> also, I disabled Wikis...because that's redundant here
22:50 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> well, guess it can be merged then
22:51 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> unless lmd has something to say
22:51 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> @Luatic
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> I have, wait
22:52 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> While I wait, @Benbob0329 is the objprop pr mergable?
22:52 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I don't think so yet
22:53 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Oh well, Im going to start on standardizing anyway
22:53 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I mean, you can start working on it whenever, I just wanted to give a scope for the chaos
22:53 MTDiscord <luatic> I have submitted my review.
22:54 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> > Basically this is table.copy plus metatable
22:54 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> useless information
22:55 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> comment on the PR please
22:55 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> aight
22:55 MTDiscord <luatic> No. Modders might think they could use either.
22:55 MTDiscord <luatic> The purpose of this org is to go beyond what lua_api.txt has to say
22:55 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Then your wording needs help
22:55 MTDiscord <luatic> It does
22:55 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> "this is not the same as table.copy"
22:56 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Isn't the metatable thing covered towards the top?
22:56 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> In the big note I wrote on it
22:56 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> the metatable note in his comment is a mislead
22:56 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> his point is that vector.copy does more than just table.copy
22:56 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> No no, I mention that
22:56 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> you mention it in vector.copy?
22:56 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> > Do note that functions here will accept an old-style (non-metatable) vector, but you cannot perform metatable operations with said vector.
22:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> that is not what we are talking about
22:57 MTDiscord <luatic> I'm just saying that vector.copy could go without a note if it just did what you describe
22:57 MTDiscord <luatic> But it does more than just table.copy as it also sets the metatable
22:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> the note is that vector.copy is not equivalent to table.copy but some people may think so because it is a table
22:57 MTDiscord <luatic> ^
22:57 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Fair
22:58 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> All you have to say is "This is not equivalent to table.copy"
22:58 MTDiscord <luatic> Dunno if that's worth a WARNING or a TIP
22:58 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> You too argue about the review for a few, I need to go count my chicken (after they've hatched)
22:58 MTDiscord <luatic> Actual chickens?
22:58 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Due too
22:59 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> :]
22:59 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Actual chickens
23:00 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Anyway, I agree with all his points
23:01 MTDiscord <luatic> How exactly do we plan to structure the style guide discussion?
23:01 MTDiscord <luatic> Just a discussion issue?
23:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> probably a PR so we have a file to iterate on
23:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Im reworking the template right now
23:18 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Meat or egg?
23:41 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Both, actually
23:47 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Note: I'm resolving issues as I go, before pushing so that I can remember what all I've done
23:50 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Small grumble: Why doesn't the Lua 5.1 reference document the return types clearly?
23:50 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Unless my PDF version of it is messed up somehow

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