Time Nick Message 02:54 MTDiscord Variable sized stack arrays are just asking for trouble 02:54 MTDiscord That code would be better off just using std::vector 06:54 [MatrxMT] @rubenwardy fair enough, but I don't think it's a healthy approach. I've personally spent these days getting anxious as 5.10 issues/PRs kept rising. I've also tried helping with a couple of PRs to speed up the process. If the goal is to deliver when the date is reached, we should be ready at least a couple of days earlier 06:56 [MatrxMT] If, after a couple of attempts, we see it's not feasible for us, we should reconsider the approach. But we should try at least.. 08:23 rubenwardy How's that going 08:37 [MatrxMT] "That" what? 08:40 [MatrxMT] If you're talking about the milestone, I guess the main blocker is #15294. We need that in for the release candidate 08:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15294 -- Rename to Luanti by grorp 08:40 [MatrxMT] Otherwise is pointless 12:09 nore Btw, do we have a time for the meeting today? 12:23 [MatrxMT] Huh, I forgot to create the note. But I'd say 18:00 UTC as always nore 12:25 nore That's what I was expecting but thanks for the confirmation! 12:28 [MatrxMT] Np c: 12:48 grorp merging #15294 in 15 min 👀 12:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15294 -- Rename to Luanti by grorp 13:03 sfan5 I have tested #15341 now and will merge it after grorp's merge 13:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15341 -- Android: update used NDK and SDL support code by sfan5 13:05 grorp done 15:36 SFENCE From now I am playing/testing Luanti-5.10-signature-candidate.app ... 16:17 SFENCE @sfan5: For #15303, Looks like I can move for example IRROBJ sources to IrrlichtMT STATIC and it with one condition should to fix build also. Sounds it good to you? http://pastie.org/p/5FMrqqCjjSU8P5T6f8bwWC 16:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15303 -- Support generation of working Xcode project for signature purposes on MacOS by sfence 16:31 sfan5 the if(CMAKE_GENERATOR STREQUAL "Xcode") ... is the only change? 16:36 SFENCE No, IRROBJ sources was moved to IrrlichtMt. I have to move at least one source to it. 16:37 sfan5 hm :/ 16:38 sfan5 what's the exact problem we get otherwise? is there a cmake bug report for it? 16:39 SFENCE Yes, 6 years old, two years inactive. 16:40 SFENCE It works with object library as static ones. And is not able to generate command to combine multiple static lirbaries into one if no source is in IrrlichtMt. 16:41 SFENCE_arch https://gitlab.kitware.com/cmake/cmake/-/issues/17500 16:49 sfan5 I see 16:50 sfan5 I suppose moving a few sources to the library target is okay 16:50 SFENCE Ok. 16:51 sfan5 in the bigger picture a possible alternative is to let cmake link minetest into a static library. and we generate an xcode project that merely combines this into a finished app 16:51 sfan5 maybe this could also avoid duplicating the asset copying code? 17:08 SFENCE Maybe. I am not sure. Can try. In that case duplication of the asset copying code will be moved to Xcode project. 17:09 [MatrxMT] reminder: meeting in about 50 minutes 17:10 SFENCE I am afraid about .dSYM file generation in that solution. 17:11 sfan5 if the current solution works that's fine. no need to try. 17:12 SFENCE It looks fine. CI is running. I was able to compile Luanti under cmake, Xcode and Xcode archive with that. 18:00 [MatrxMT] dlin-dlon, meeting time 18:00 MTDiscord bonjour 18:03 nore hello! 18:04 [MatrxMT] > renaming progress 18:04 [MatrxMT] Basically #15322 18:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15322 -- Minetest → Luanti rename checklist 18:05 [MatrxMT] I can't touch GitHub description, probably only celeron55 can. But in general it'd make more sense if done once the migration has taken place 18:05 SFENCE_arch We also should regenerate translation files. There are changes related to it. 18:06 [MatrxMT] about the wikis, I took the opportunity to make the scope a little bigger (2nd point of the topic) https://forum.luanti.org/viewtopic.php?p=440220&sid=b35e2a639ac76f1ed794d3bc379f08f0#p440220 18:06 MTDiscord What about minetest.* -> core.* e.g. in devtest code? 18:07 SFENCE_arch luatic: will be good to have. Also headers update. It will be easier to check where minetest is still used with grep after it. 18:08 MTDiscord Yeah, I think it'd also be good to set a good example in devtest code. I'd like to eventually recommend devtest code as sort of a collection of examples for modders to look at. 18:08 MTDiscord (of course footnotes apply and not everything in devtest is best practice ;)) 18:08 [MatrxMT] I'll add a point in Wuzzy's message 18:09 [MatrxMT] done 18:09 MTDiscord I can do a PR for that 18:10 [MatrxMT] sure thing 18:11 [MatrxMT] do we know when the GH migration is going to happen? 18:11 MTDiscord I don't 18:11 [MatrxMT] or, most importantly, the website? Showcasing just a few memes is meh 18:12 SFENCE_arch Zughy: So it means replacing mod forum threads by feedback in CDB? 18:12 nore I tried to grep minetest in the engine, there are still quite a bit of places where minetest is still used 18:12 ROllerozxa SFENCE_arch: CDB has threads support in addition to reviews 18:12 ROllerozxa (basically every package gets its own forum section, essentially) 18:13 nore just found at least a place that was missed by the rename (opening a PR) 18:13 [MatrxMT] ty nore 18:14 MTDiscord have we considered a small official compat mod under the minetest / luanti umbrella? 18:15 MTDiscord sometimes we make changes which then turn out to be annoying / modders accidentally use new features, needlessly making their content incompatible with older versions. see e.g. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15337#issuecomment-2439719896, or the hud_elem_type rename. 18:15 nore #15345 18:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15345 -- Fix missing rename by Ekdohibs 18:15 SFENCE_arch ROllerozxa: Oh this one. I see it being used on for approval feedback. Never come to my mind, it can be used as forum also. :D 18:16 ROllerozxa Merging and downsizing the wikis sounds like a good idea, basically finishing what I was trying to do with my wiki cleanups 18:16 MTDiscord a thin compat mod could address such things with less of a hassle. the advantage of it basically is that a compat mod is easier to distribute (via cdb) to all users than a new minetest version. 18:17 [MatrxMT] luatic: do we really want to add more work on our shoulders? 18:17 ROllerozxa (by the way, there's a massive amount of spam on the wiki because of an old compromised account. I don't have page deletion privs anymore so I'll just mention it here) 18:17 nore I also found a couple place where minetest is still mentionned in strings for error messages and so on but I didn't fix them in this PR, as the PR here is a trivial bugfix 18:19 MTDiscord Zughy: Valid concern. I would try to keep the scope of this mod very limited. 18:20 [MatrxMT] question n°2: won't something like this bring more people to try to break compatibility because there's the mod anyway? 18:20 [MatrxMT] n°3: isn't this more work for anyone opening a PR? 18:20 [MatrxMT] maybe not breaking compatibility, but certainly propose debatable implementations relying on the mod 18:21 nore what would we want in such a mod? 18:22 nore just an alias `minetest = core`, or something else as well? 18:22 MTDiscord 2. breaking compatibility no (though part of the idea is to help mitigate accidental breakages), deprecating things more eagerly or adding convenience features yes 18:22 celeron55 i tried to browse through the discussion to see if anyone talked about adding the luanti.org domain to minetest.github.io so that the domain could be pointed to github pages 18:22 MTDiscord 3. not necessarily, the mod could be separately / independently maintained 18:23 ROllerozxa we're moving the landing page to luanti.org now? :D 18:23 MTDiscord nore: mitigations for accidental backwards compatibility breakages or overzealous deprecations as well as "porting" convenience (lua-only) features to older versions 18:24 MTDiscord e.g. consider #15337, there are 3 options for how to deal with it: 18:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15337 -- Make `options` of `core.read_schematic` optional 18:24 celeron55 ROllerozxa: well it would be nice to have the same content on luanti.org that's on minetest.net, no? 18:24 nore ah, yes 18:26 MTDiscord 1. reject it on the grounds that such convenience features could lead modders to unnecessarily be incompatible with older versions; 18:26 MTDiscord 2. accept it, expect modders to do their due diligence (testing on older versions, using API references for older versions they want to support); 18:26 ROllerozxa celeron55: yeah. well, I don't know if github pages allows putting two CNAMEs for a repo so I was assuming it would be moved and minetest.net will then redirect to luanti.org 18:26 MTDiscord 3. sort of a compromise, accept it but also implement it in an official compat layer mod so if a mod / game does happen to use it without its presence, this can be mitigated by fetching a fresh version of the compat mod, which can be distributed as part of a game via cdb with much less hassle than shipping a new version of minetest to end users e.g. on "stable" distros 18:28 [MatrxMT] luatic: I guess it makes more sense to either open an issue about it or topic in the forums 18:28 celeron55 ROllerozxa: well, that's a possibility also, of course. i'm just surprised nobody has generally brought it up yet 18:28 MTDiscord tbh this idea could even be taken one step further: what if a part of builtin, e.g. the pure lua utilities, was a separately upgradeable mod? 18:29 MTDiscord Zughy: sure, will do 18:29 [MatrxMT] more issues/discussions about the renaming or should we move to the next topic? 18:29 nore well, while the 3rd solution looks like a good thing to have, it will probably mean additional work to keep in sync 18:32 [MatrxMT] next then: feature freeze progress 18:32 [MatrxMT] https://github.com/minetest/minetest/milestone/24 18:33 [MatrxMT] grorp is waiting for my feedback to merge #15330 , as we're running a test today on our server 18:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15330 -- Fix server steps shorter than dedicated_server_step since #13370 by grorp 18:36 SFENCE So if new web site will be avaliable, should we change also URL adress in READMEs etc? 18:39 [MatrxMT] Yes I guess 18:39 nore #15290 is good with me but sfan5 or grorp probably want to approve since they already reviewed 18:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15290 -- Fix newline rejection and whitespace trimming for chat messages by chmodsayshello 18:40 sfan5 (just waiting for a second approval since it's essentially my code now) 18:40 [MatrxMT] About the feature freeze in general: can we agree on releasing a release candidate today and release during the next meeting? So that, if more things like #15345 pops up, we'll have plenty of time to fix them 18:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15345 -- Fix missing rename by Ekdohibs 18:41 [MatrxMT] *pop up 18:42 MTDiscord #15345 is unproblematic as far as I can tell, it's just a very minor code style issue..? 18:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15345 -- Fix missing rename by Ekdohibs 18:42 nore sfan5: put an approval, in that case 18:42 nore I think #15345 won't cause any problems as long as we keep the minetest = core alias 18:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15345 -- Fix missing rename by Ekdohibs 18:43 MTDiscord yep 18:43 nore it's not a problem if it ends up even in the release, it's more like a bug-in-waiting 18:44 nore (which we would only find in the long-term future) 18:44 [MatrxMT] Right. But surely we can't release today. An official version I mean 18:47 nore yeah, an official release seems difficult 18:47 nore I'd be for releasing a release candidate as well however, to get time to fix the last few issues/things in the milestone 18:47 MTDiscord there are some things i'd still like to get in a RC though it doesn't matter terribly much i suppose 18:48 nore but having an RC for at least a week before the actual release seems like a good thing to have in case we uncover some bugs due to the rename 18:48 MTDiscord nore: if i'm not mistaken, we still have two weeks 18:49 MTDiscord i mean we could also do a RC1 and a RC2 where the latter possibly contains like one or two more smaller fixes 18:49 nore yes, so an RC at most in the upcoming week if we want to get some things in and release in two weeks :) 18:49 [MatrxMT] I suppose a RC is less work for us compared to an official one 18:50 [MatrxMT] I mean actually releasing it 18:50 nore the animation blending bugfix would probably be good to have merged soon but I don't know that part of the code so it will be hard for me to review 18:51 MTDiscord nore: well, it is cursed. 18:52 MTDiscord i have a much harder to review proper fix in the works but that currently breaks .x and maybe another thing and i don't know why yet so it's not an option for 5.10 18:53 MTDiscord the "simple" fix essentially works by combining code which is already there in the way it would be used if a certain workaround was employed (overriding any bone in any way, no matter how minuscule). 18:54 Desour >if i'm not mistaken, we still have two weeks <--- feature freeze is supposed to only take 2 weeks. so we've already reached the deadline 18:54 MTDiscord if we trust that code to be good enough (tbh i don't entirely, but it seems to work) the correctness of my PR follows. 18:54 MTDiscord well, correctness is too strong a word here. less brokenness. 18:55 MTDiscord Desour: feature freeze was started a while ago already 18:55 Desour where a while = 2 weeks, I know 18:56 MTDiscord well the feature freeze was started early tbh 18:56 nore ah, I see better how it is supposed to work now 18:56 MTDiscord because we still have two weeks for a 3 month release schedule 18:57 Desour for a 2-3 month schedule, which was taken as 2.5 18:58 MTDiscord that's silly, obviously 2-3 is -1 18:59 nore I'm good with #15267 if the hack fixes the bug (especially if you intend to do a cleaner solution later), but I'm not sure how to test that 18:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15267 -- Fix animation blending by appgurueu 19:01 [MatrxMT] Desour: rubenwardy put the wrong date because he thought we could never make it in time and I've noticed only today 19:02 [MatrxMT] I mean, I don't blame him, but hey, we're actually in time! 19:02 [MatrxMT] *on time 19:10 pgimeno how about issuing some kind of deprecation warning (possibly debug-level) in case _G.minetest is accessed? 19:11 Desour please no 19:12 Desour for that to not trigger you'd need *all* of your mods to not use `minetest` anymore 19:12 Desour which is out of your control unless you're making a new subgame 19:12 Desour just use luacheck instead 19:12 MTDiscord yeah we're not doing that anytime soon 19:13 MTDiscord luacheck is a good point though, since there's a minetest standard now, that might need updating to support core 19:14 MTDiscord yep it needs a core = minetest, i'll take care of it 19:14 cx384 Maybe it would be good to have a hide deprecation warning setting to not annoy people. 19:14 cx384 *warnings 19:23 sfan5 deprecation warnings are currently well hidden 19:23 sfan5 #15209 19:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15209 -- Stuff printed at 'warning' log level is essentially invisible to normal users 19:23 sfan5 ...so well that many modders don't even know of them 19:24 Desour and if you set chat log level to warning, you're suddenly spammed 19:24 Desour we'd need some kind of per mod setting 19:26 [MatrxMT] Yeah please don't, our server console would be spammed 19:26 Desour @luatic: you've shown interest in #15115 in the past. kind reminder, if you want to review before release. :) (haven't added it to milestone because it's not a blocker) 19:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15115 -- Add a setting to group transparency sorted triangles by buffer by Desour 19:26 [MatrxMT] So RC next Sunday? 19:26 sfan5 or tomorrow? 19:26 sfan5 no use in waiting 19:27 [MatrxMT] Or now? :^] 19:27 [MatrxMT] [@grorp:matrix.org](https://matrix.to/#/@grorp:matrix.org) your PR works like a charm, it can be merged 19:29 [MatrxMT] Can we please avoid PRs like #15346? We need a cool logotype, sure, but none of you is able to deliver it - unless you've got some background in graphics 19:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15346 -- Improve menu_header.png slightly by Desour 19:31 Desour :( 19:32 Desour why this elitism? 19:32 Krock https://www.imghost.net/ib/yardSMQib44znpA_1730057529.png 19:32 Krock I call myself an artist now 19:33 [MatrxMT] I don't want to be mean, but it's been since the beginning of grorp's PR that people started getting crazy about the logotype, even putting more attention on that than on the code 19:33 sfan5 let's cut this short and let me ask: will we have a new logotype ready for 5.10? 19:33 Krock a forum post could speed that up 19:34 [MatrxMT] It's not elitism, it's like if I opened a complex PR that is pretty bad code and expect to be a developer like you or any other core dev: it doesn't work like that and you can clearly see that my code is bad 19:34 Desour we could also leave that PR open and let other people post suggestions, and before release we take the most popular 19:35 [MatrxMT] sfan5: I definitely don't have the time. Can we stick with a crappy one like we did for years in the meanwhile? Otherwise we could ask Lemente (a community member actually skilled in graphic design) 19:36 sfan5 i think the one we have is basic and okay for that 19:36 sfan5 and unless we will have a new one ready I think adding minor cool details doesn't hurt 19:36 [MatrxMT] Desour: big no, I won't have devs decide yet another design. See what's happened with the main menu 19:36 sfan5 i don't expect more logo bikeshedding to happen 19:37 sfan5 (or if it does, we should stop it) 19:37 [MatrxMT] In general please stop seeing art as something anybody can pull in no time just because they have hands and eyes 19:37 [MatrxMT] (Or feet?) 19:39 [MatrxMT] It's also something that takes time. In general people propose a couple of options and then you see them bikeshed by the client. Here "client" is a big devs community, so that's even worse (no offence) 19:40 [MatrxMT] It's like the renaming issue: we suggested people to avoid things like "mine", " free" and "voxel" and yet.. 19:40 cx384 A general main menu redesign was/is planed right? I think it would be good to come up with a better Luanti text at the same time. 19:41 Krock I'd have preferred to keep Minetest but decided to just not take part of any of this discussion. 19:41 [MatrxMT] More than 300 comments on GH, and the issue has been blocked to (I think) avoid more bikeshedding 19:41 [MatrxMT] (re cx384) 19:42 Desour @Zughy: I just don't see how improving the header slightly would hurt though. I never said it was a masterpiece, and I of course didn't spend days to design it, or years to learn how to design things like this in a way they look better 19:43 sfan5 if I understand correctly the argument is "it suggests a blocky look for luanti which is something we don't want"? 19:43 [MatrxMT] I expect more PRs like that popping up, with more people who think to be art critiques joining the discussion 19:49 [MatrxMT] But sure, if it's just one PR, why not 19:49 Desour luanti has always been a hobbyist project. most art, like textures and models, was made by amateurs. nonetheless things never looked too unpleasing for the average player 19:49 [MatrxMT] I'll ask Lemente in the meanwhile 19:49 [MatrxMT] *the average dev. I've been to enough conventions to tell you that people are put off by the main menu, and I don't even try to use the default texture pack 19:49 Desour I don't see why one could not criticize art if one just one's subjective opinion. do I first need to learn how to look? and if yes, does everything look like shit to you now? 19:49 [MatrxMT] See why I didn't want to start discussions like that? 19:49 [MatrxMT] I'm clearly the minority in here, which already requires some mental preparation to avoid saying things in the wrong way. Then I get accused of elitism, than of seeing that everything is shit 19:49 [MatrxMT] *then 19:49 [MatrxMT] *saying 19:50 Desour I see how this can become lengthy. but I would like to understand you better 19:51 Desour I hope a bigger understanding would help in the long term 19:51 Desour or if not managing to understand, at least knowing your perspective 19:53 [MatrxMT] bottom line is, aesthetics is complicated and I'm not aesthetics professor to express myself properly about that 19:53 [MatrxMT] *not an 19:54 [MatrxMT] About doing art: art is, like e.g. translation, a matter of experience. Expecting that someone makes a piece of art without no background whatsoever is irrealistic 19:54 [MatrxMT] *unrealistic, aaaaa 19:55 [MatrxMT] about appreciating art: we're mostly a niche of devs and I don't think that the general dev taste is what it's needed to be appreciated by the vast public 19:56 [MatrxMT] I'm not saying you can't make art. Everyone can and should 19:57 Desour ah, so you have knowledge of what looks good to the general public, and is independent of your personal taste? 19:59 MTDiscord For what its worth, I'm not sure its worth bikeshedding this right now. A marginally better header typeface isn't going to fix the UI that people dislike. Like someone already mentioned, it could be included in other improvements, but at the very least it can be replaced after 5.10. 19:59 [MatrxMT] I have theoretical knowledge and practical (also professional) experience, so that gives me more experience than the average user in here. I might not like a specific art style, but I think I'm mature enough to say "It's not my cup of tea, but it's really well made" 20:00 [MatrxMT] E.g. I don't like medieval stuff, but Dark Souls art is great 20:00 [MatrxMT] I'd say amazing 20:07 [MatrxMT] So, RC today? 20:27 [MatrxMT] for what it's worth: Lemente might be up for the thing 20:32 MTDiscord I'd be very grateful if we could get something designed by someone with a bit of experience in graphic design. 20:33 MTDiscord Only if it doesnt delay 5.10 20:34 MTDiscord A timely release takes priority, yes. But we have some time. 20:35 [MatrxMT] agreed with greenxenith. It seems that the PR is going in a nice direction, so we can stick with that 20:47 Wuzzy I'm stuck in the PR rebase for the Luanti builtin update PR: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/15324 20:48 Wuzzy namely, there are two conflicting names in the credits and I don't known which I need to pick. @grorp 20:49 [MatrxMT] replied on github 20:51 celeron55 Wuzzy: #15331 20:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15331 -- Rename erle as requested by celeron55 20:51 celeron55 (lol, github adding "by celeron55" to the website title makes that sound pretty confusing) 21:05 rubenwardy @Zughy it was never the wrong date, target was 2-3 not 3 21:06 [MatrxMT] huh. I guess sticking with 3 is a safe option 21:06 [MatrxMT] sorry for what I've said earlier then 21:09 MTDiscord Completely separate topic and I dont want to bikeshed it too hard but: IMO, the logo we have is fine for Luanti (it represents a slice of a world you could create with it), and frankly logo changes are harder to propagate and keeping it helps SEO. However, I think the MTG logo should be changed to also separate from the engine. Maybe a mese block or something. Just throwing it out there. Might be controversial :^) 21:11 MTDiscord Bonus: If the MTG logo were changed, the engine logo could be integrated into the header. 21:11 MTDiscord (credit to dragonop for that idea) 21:11 MTDiscord Jumping here as well to add I propose adding the Luanti Logo to the menu_header (logo + name) 21:11 MTDiscord Ah beat me to it