Time  Nick      Message
17:25 Krock     Meeting in 35 minutes for those who would like to attend.
17:26 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> Present, if there's anything to talk about (I've been pretty busy lately)
17:56 sfan5     good suggestions welcome: #15209
17:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15209 -- Stuff printed at 'warning' log level is essentially invisible to normal users
17:57 Krock     I didn't realize that chat_log_level wasn't already at warning level
17:58 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> Since there are no meeting points: I've written a draft for the name change today, waiting for rubenwardy to double check it. grorp seemed fine with it. It'd be nice it we could move forward during the meeting
17:58 Krock     at least deprecated_lua_api_handling is "log" by default
17:58 MTDiscord <luatic> I set chat_log_level to warning before I was a core dev
17:59 MTDiscord <luatic> And I also usually start Minetest in a terminal when testing stuff, be it engine or mod stuff
17:59 MTDiscord <luatic> I think it is sensible not to want to spam users with deprecation warnings
17:59 MTDiscord <luatic> But modders should be made more aware of these settings and encouraged to start Minetest in a terminal
18:00 sfan5     what kind of last century application encourages you to start it in a terminal?
18:00 Krock     there's a noticeable amount of modders that very likely develop on Windows, outside the terminal with default settings
18:00 sfan5     (and isn't a terminal app itself)
18:01 Krock     Minetest used to start with a terminal/console in the past, but that's no longer the case for 2+ years
18:02 Krock     Meeting start. Pinging those who reacted. Zughy, @luatic
18:03 Krock     any topics?
18:03 * sfan5   afk (sorry)
18:03 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: There are multiple convenience reasons why I like starting Minetest via the terminal. For one, I can just do minetest --worldname ... --go.
18:03 MTDiscord <luatic> For two, I get the stack trace / warnings / prints etc. nicely in the terminal right next to my editor. If I start Minetest from the integrated terminal, I can directly shift click "file:line" references to go there.
18:04 Krock     other developers will copy the text from the error textarea[] in the mainmenu
18:13 pgimeno   is the name change happening today?
18:15 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> unlikely, I was only suggesting to tackle the TODO bullet point list we have
18:21 MTDiscord <theidealist> what name change
18:23 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Might be a good time to bring up the core namespace I mentioned the other day
18:28 MTDiscord <greenxenith> That mention being "It may be a good idea to officialize the core namespace rather than add another namespace."
18:28 MTDiscord <greenxenith> With which v-rob agreed, at least
18:29 pgimeno   I agree too but IANACD
18:29 Krock     Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers
18:30 Krock     "I am not a core dev"
18:30 pgimeno   ^
18:39 MTDiscord <luatic> I guess someone could give their input on #11391. TL;DR is: PR works and makes sense and essentially fixes up a feature (allows for consistent collision boxes for large plantlike rooted nodes), but if the feature is used, raycasts take twice as long.
18:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11391 -- Add support for static boxes in 'leveled' type; add node box types 'leveled_plantlike[_rooted]' by Wuzzy2
18:40 MTDiscord <luatic> I'm not happy with the hack or the performance hit, but I could imagine this being useful to some who don't mind it. I think if the performance implications are documented it would be acceptable, but I don't feel strongly about it.
18:41 celeron55 the core namespace was added to support different names of forks, and I think it should be used just like that for a different official name also. having the official name in the code might have a slight marketing benefit when people share code, but I don't think it overcomes the downsides
18:43 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> +1 ^
18:45 MTDiscord <luatic> I'm fine with core.*, rip minetest.*
18:50 MTDiscord <theidealist> how about minecore as the official name
19:02 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> celeron55: should it be you the one that reserves the name in the other git platform?
19:06 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> I've linked the draft in the internal discussion
19:11 celeron55 well, I suppose I should, to avoid having to figure out who will
19:12 celeron55 it's just that I don't even have an account there yet. I'll have a look
19:13 [         I don't see the point of a rename
19:19 Krock     @luatic What's the cause of the raycast performance drop? I don't see any code part that would be critical in this regard
19:19 MTDiscord <luatic> Krock: This vastly increases the size of the selection box union in a typical game (MTG): Selection boxes can now be 16 nodes high. Thus many more nodes need to be checked.
19:20 Krock     @luatic Selection boxes should be limited the same way as collision boxes. 3m into each direction.
19:21 Krock     or was it 1.5m?
19:21 MTDiscord <luatic> Well they aren't. Rather, performance depends on how large the union of all possible selection boxes is.
19:22 Krock     would limiting it be a bad idea?
19:22 MTDiscord <luatic> It would sort of defeats the purpose of that PR, which is to allow for relatively large selection boxes, matching the large visuals for these nodes.
19:23 MTDiscord <luatic> Though arguably I think that having (visually) 16 node high nodes was a design mistake in the first place.
19:23 Krock     physics won't work on those so I don't think such feature has priority whatsoever - at least for anything outside the collision check range.
19:24 Krock     the visual appearance is not necessarily bound to a selection box, which the rooted nodes already show.
19:25 Krock     although levelled is assumed to be rather solid, thus having an equally sited selection box does make sense. hmm.
19:26 Krock     s/sited/sized/
19:27 celeron55 by having a massive selection box you risk making it impossible to select nearby nodes
19:27 Krock     celeron55: I suppose that's a problem for modders to solve
19:27 celeron55 but of course if the node actually manages all that space, then it shouldn't be an issue
19:27 MTDiscord <luatic> it does visually occupy that space
19:27 MTDiscord <luatic> think a large kelp plant
19:28 Krock     you could hide other nodes inside of it :3
19:28 MTDiscord <luatic> yes lol
19:28 MTDiscord <luatic> this is part of the reason i don't think multiple node large nodes are a particularly good idea
19:48 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> I've just closed all the meeting discussions in the Discussions section, so that only things that are still relevant are displayed
19:48 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> speaking of which, I guess some of you want to check out some "old" security reports that are still there
20:38 MTDiscord <greenxenith> re: namespace, fwiw you can use a metatable to deprecate the namespace. on __index, send a warning and unset the metatable
20:52 MTDiscord <greenxenith> celeron55: I'm not quite clear on what you mean with "I think it should be used just like that for a different official name also"
20:54 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Is that a "core should continue to be used outside of the official name", or "a different official name is like a fork name so core can be used"?
20:55 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> I've also added a comment in the discussion, so that people can express their opinions
21:00 MTDiscord <herowl> I see I'm late to the party, but I'll post some of my thoughts.  Re #11392: I think the "rooted" nodes aren't exactly a good approach, at least not to everything. I think we really need proper liquidlogged nodes, this way or another. If it would take a map format change, we could take a hit at light banks at that point and add colored lighting of course.
21:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11392 -- Allow keyboard only use of formspecs
21:02 MTDiscord <herowl> Also I'm once again mentioning #14543
21:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14543 -- Add gameid aliases by nauta-turbidus
21:03 MTDiscord <herowl> And I'd like some core devs to take a look at (and respond to) #15176, at least in terms of opinions on what should be done.
21:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15176 -- Decouple Ambient Occlusion from Shadows
21:03 MTDiscord <herowl> Any responses would be very welcome.
21:17 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Zughy: I wasn't expecting the mass amount of email notifications from your mass discussion closing x)
21:17 [MatrxMT] <Zughy> oh, I'm sorry for that :(
21:19 MTDiscord <greenxenith> Not a big deal, I just never expected to get jumpscared by 90 new inbox messages