| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 04:00 |
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| 16:12 |
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| 16:12 |
Desour |
is there a dev meeting today? |
| 16:18 |
rubenwardy |
Yes |
| 16:21 |
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| 17:00 |
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srifqi joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:03 |
proller |
time to discuss Β https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12142 ! |
| 17:08 |
Krock |
.. nothing to discuss= |
| 17:08 |
Krock |
that's good |
| 17:26 |
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lhofhansl joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:30 |
rubenwardy |
30 mins until meeting |
| 17:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if there isn't anything to discuss, can always review some prs in that allotted time π |
| 17:34 |
Zughy[m] |
^ |
| 17:34 |
Zughy[m] |
There are no points to discuss |
| 17:34 |
rubenwardy |
added some points |
| 17:34 |
rubenwardy |
sfan5: did you want to retest #10100 as it's changed since your approval? |
| 17:34 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10100 -- Additional texture modifiers by Treer |
| 17:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> external point: feel free to disregard... there is a lot of issues but only 5 marked as high priority, is it worth having an elevated priority for things that aren't high priority but do have impact to help improve visibility. it sometimes many things are classified as low priority, but it's hard to see what is a priority (in terms of bugs that probably don't fit into the roadmap) |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Something something sound api PR something |
| 17:39 |
rubenwardy |
the sound refactor PR has my approval but I would like sfan to finish his review |
| 17:42 |
Desour_ |
sorry that I haven't provided reproducible tests. idk how to make good test scenarios for testing sounds or other client effects |
| 18:00 |
srifqi |
hello |
| 18:01 |
Krock |
weclome |
| 18:02 |
Desour_ |
yes, welcome! |
| 18:03 |
Krock |
@ 5.7.1 release seems OK just for Android, although I have no idea how that's done |
| 18:04 |
srifqi |
thank you for the welcome |
| 18:07 |
lhofhansl |
Hello |
| 18:10 |
srifqi |
hello |
| 18:10 |
pgimeno |
so, no points left? |
| 18:10 |
lhofhansl |
Where is the list of points? |
| 18:10 |
Desour_ |
!dev meeting |
| 18:10 |
ShadowBot |
Desour_: Error: That URL raised <HTTP Error 404: Not Found> |
| 18:10 |
Desour_ |
!meeting |
| 18:10 |
srifqi |
about the Android patch release, there are some PRs that I would like to be merged before it |
| 18:11 |
Desour_ |
!dev meetings |
| 18:11 |
ShadowBot |
Desour_: Error: That URL raised <HTTP Error 404: Not Found> |
| 18:12 |
rubenwardy |
https://dev.minetest.net/Meetings |
| 18:12 |
srifqi |
!dev Meetings |
| 18:12 |
ShadowBot |
Meetings - Minetest Developer Wiki -- http://dev.minetest.net/Meetings |
| 18:12 |
rubenwardy |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3A%22Roadmap%3A+Needs+approval%22 |
| 18:12 |
Desour_ |
oh, it's cases sensitive x) |
| 18:12 |
lhofhansl |
Thanks. |
| 18:14 |
Krock |
more fine-grained clouds would look nice |
| 18:15 |
Krock |
of course, implemented with perlin noise using multiple octaves for a smooth appearance |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Or perhaps generalizing celestial objects and sky planes into a unified interface that games have full control over π |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
oh. I was checking the issues, not the PR. sorry, my mad. |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
s/mad/bad/ |
| 18:17 |
lhofhansl |
Going to merge #12439 and then I'd like to close on #13093 |
| 18:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12439 -- Avoid jittering when player is attached by lhofhansl |
| 18:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13093 -- Avoid attachment and other jitter. by lhofhansl |
| 18:18 |
Desour_ |
we can probably ignore those that are waiting on dependency for now, right? (#12588, #12589) |
| 18:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12588 -- Add setting to mirror hands by LizzyFleckenstein03 |
| 18:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12589 -- Add keybind to swap items between hands by LizzyFleckenstein03 |
| 18:21 |
srifqi |
oh, i just realised about the label. i've never seen it before |
| 18:21 |
lhofhansl |
Why do we need roadmap approval for the .tr translations? |
| 18:21 |
Krock |
because it's not clear where to put them best |
| 18:23 |
Krock |
unless you've got a RUN_IN_PLACE Minetest build, those files would not be not so easily accessible for mod development |
| 18:24 |
Krock |
ideas/solutions are welcome |
| 18:24 |
Desour_ |
for translations scripts, see also: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2023-04-30 |
| 18:25 |
Desour_ |
https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2023-04-30#i_6080414 * |
| 18:25 |
srifqi |
#12903 is a UI improvement, isn't it? |
| 18:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12903 -- Set window caption to subgame name by NO411 |
| 18:25 |
srifqi |
albeit a small one |
| 18:26 |
Krock |
inconsistent, though. |
| 18:26 |
Krock |
it'll only work in singleplayer |
| 18:27 |
srifqi |
does the game name also sent to the clients? or is it just sent to the server list? |
| 18:28 |
Krock |
server list only, to my knowledge. |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> the game name is also sent to the clients |
| 18:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> under gameid |
| 18:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> mostly either "minetest", "MultiCraft", or "MineClone2" |
| 18:30 |
srifqi |
(btw, the column on the server list is still called "subgame" instead of just "game") |
| 18:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> was there some server list viewer update that i havent downloaded yet, because i dont see that column |
| 18:32 |
Krock |
it's not shown if your screen is too narrow |
| 18:32 |
srifqi |
yes, it won't show on a phone screen |
| 18:32 |
Krock |
(speaking of http://servers.minetest.net/ ) |
| 18:33 |
Krock |
although that's not what the clients receive upon connect |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> http://servers.minetest.net/list is what the clients get |
| 18:35 |
Krock |
what about unlisted servers? |
| 18:36 |
Krock |
a proper implementation would require to send the game name via client <--> server connection which does yet not happen. and while we're at it: for servers it might make more sense to show the server title instead |
| 18:36 |
Zughy[m] |
About translation scripts: they're not good enough imho, and I don't know how much it would help having them in the installation folder |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> i agree. showing the game name instead of the server name would be tacky |
| 18:37 |
Krock |
Zughy[m]: at least the update script is definitely needed and the other is kinda nice to have as well |
| 18:38 |
Krock |
but key is that the installation folder is not always obvious, hence this needs a better alternative |
| 18:38 |
Zughy[m] |
As a modder, the output is a mess |
| 18:39 |
Krock |
then propose alternatives to make it better |
| 18:40 |
Krock |
I found the script from the update_translations repository pretty helpful but haven't looked at Wuzzy's changes |
| 18:43 |
Zughy[m] |
I did |
| 18:45 |
Krock |
I see |
| 18:45 |
Krock |
looks like there's nothing to add |
| 18:47 |
Krock |
> #12966 |
| 18:47 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12966 -- make falling node checks check for protection by fluxionary |
| 18:49 |
Desour_ |
(made some comments about that on dev wiki) |
| 18:49 |
Krock |
I can see the issue but at the same time wouldn't it be the protection mod's responsibility to limit interactions? |
| 18:50 |
Krock |
this is similar to using a water or lava bucket above a protected area |
| 18:50 |
Krock |
or dropping nodes into it |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Thresher> i dropped some sand on this guys house once by accident and i couldnt remove it. this would be pretty useful |
| 18:52 |
Desour_ |
Krock: the protection mod doesn't stop interaction. it's the responsibility of all the other mods to invoke is_protected |
| 18:52 |
srifqi |
if it's protection mod's responsibility, how slow would it be compared to engine checks? |
| 18:52 |
Desour_ |
in this case the responsible mod is *builtin* |
| 18:52 |
Krock |
yes.. which makes it a design question |
| 18:53 |
Desour_ |
I'm currently thinking it would be best to just check protection in the registered on_punch callback |
| 18:54 |
Krock |
add a player name to core.check_for_falling and let protection mods overwrite that .. ? |
| 18:55 |
srifqi |
^ +1 |
| 18:55 |
srifqi |
i was thinking about other ways a node can fall other than on punch |
| 18:55 |
Krock |
on_punch works too but requires retrieving the node groups for every punch action which is some overhead |
| 18:56 |
Krock |
right. the check function would cover all cases related to spawning __builtin:falling_node |
| 18:57 |
Desour_ |
there aren't so many on_punch actions |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you place the block against another block, it'll fall without a punch |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so you could build above and place 60 falling blocks |
| 19:02 |
Krock |
good point |
| 19:03 |
Desour_ |
the PR isn't about nodes falling in into protected areas. (which can also happen from the side if you're using tnt, btw) |
| 19:04 |
Desour_ |
if you're placing against a protected node, you're at the protection boarder (where you could also do other shenanigans, such as placing a water source) |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
that's a different issue, though. |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
just because something else works does not mean that it's okay |
| 19:05 |
Desour_ |
true |
| 19:07 |
srifqi |
how about making it as a stepping stone for other protection-related problem fixes? we just discussed about falling and liquid spreading |
| 19:09 |
Krock |
what do you mean by that? |
| 19:11 |
srifqi |
we can "fix" (or add as a feature) falling nodes in protected area and then fix other problems related to protection after that |
| 19:11 |
srifqi |
falling nodes check* |
| 19:11 |
Krock |
right |
| 19:12 |
srifqi |
one by one |
| 19:15 |
srifqi |
i'm going to bed. see you |
| 19:15 |
srifqi |
i still think that #12903 is a UI improvement, though, especially with the suggestion discussed before |
| 19:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12903 -- Set window caption to subgame name by NO411 |
| 19:30 |
Desour_ |
"add a player name to core.check_for_falling and let protection mods overwrite that .. ?" <- this is what 12966 currently does, just without the letting mods overwrite it part. is there anything else that a mod would want to do than `if player_name and core.is_protected(p, player_name) then return end` |
| 19:31 |
Krock |
record it as a protection violation perhaps |
| 19:31 |
Zughy[m] |
I'd like to highlight how, due to "roadmap: needs approval" label alongside the current approach, we're actually discussing these PRs more than the others. Which is the opposite goal of having a roadmap |
| 19:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a pr that has been not touched since novemeber (6 months ago) is getting too much attention? |
| 19:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a 10 line change |
| 19:33 |
Zughy[m] |
Considering that there are PRs older than that and that this meeting is revolving almost solely on PRs not on the roadmap, yes |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> has this been discussed every meeting or just this one? |
| 19:38 |
Desour_ |
so, let's just discuss if we want to remove the label then, aka if we want to accept some PR that does the implemented thing |
| 19:40 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, these discussions should just be concept approvals - shouldn't dive into the details |
| 19:41 |
Desour_ |
i.e. for #12903, I don't really care if the window caption is the project or the subgame title. so I won't approve the intended feature (nor disapprove) |
| 19:41 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12903 -- Set window caption to subgame name by NO411 |
| 19:42 |
Desour_ |
(one could count it as UI improvement though) |
| 19:42 |
Desour_ |
(=> on roadmap?) |
| 19:43 |
Desour_ |
or rather: it's an UI improvement if it's an improvement. I'm not sure if it's an improvement though ) |
| 19:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Andrey01> sry for intrusion into the meeting, but I would like to reminder once again reviewing my #13020 and #12828 |
| 19:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13020 -- 3d line rendering. by Andrey2470T |
| 19:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12828 -- Add vector variation for ContentFeatures 'visual_scale' property. by Andrey2470T |
| 20:33 |
|
YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:49 |
Zughy[m] |
closing the remaining PRs |
| 21:05 |
Zughy[m] |
#13019 was actually supported by TurkeyMcMac. I see that srifqi put a few positive reactions, does anyone want to take care of the PR? |
| 21:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13019 -- Add trailgen mapgen: v6-like with biome API support by Cartmic |
| 21:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> please don't kill that pr π¦ |
| 21:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> 2.2 Internal code refactoring Β To ensure sustainable development, Minetest's code needs to be refactored and improved. This will remove code rot and allow for more efficient development. |
| 21:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> considering v6 doesn't support biomes and is a liability, shouldn't having a biome supporting replacement actually be an improvement or refactoring of a current feature? |
| 21:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> that pr would be a step towards killing v6 |
| 21:34 |
Zughy[m] |
mm, I'd say it's a feature request |
| 21:34 |
Zughy[m] |
I don't think we've goy any dev who's taking care of mapgen in general |
| 21:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> are you saying v6 is good and compatible with the features and architecture? |
| 21:34 |
Zughy[m] |
*got |
| 21:35 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you've got one volunteering and put in a pr, solving a problem and you're just going to push them away |
| 21:35 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> I don't think trailgen is fully compatible with old v6 |
| 21:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if it gets merged, would it not help to deprecate v6? as it would solve the problems which supporting biomes |
| 21:36 |
Zughy[m] |
AncientMariner: again, I'm not a manager and this is not a company. I can't tell people to cover something they don't want to cover :P |
| 21:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you're making decisions on behalf of core devs, almost like a general manager. if a core dev doesn't support it, ok, but who decides if it fits into roadmap or not, because that's real subjective |
| 21:39 |
Zughy[m] |
I'm following the roadmap and since it looks like a feature to me (but any core dev is free to say I'm wrong), I'm applying the roadmap to it |
| 21:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so you're judge and jury of what is and isn't on the roadmap? probably want that documented down, but if you are, and that is cool. dont do the whole slopy shoulders "i ain't a manager" when people ask questions on decisions |
| 21:40 |
Zughy[m] |
these decisions I take are from a document people have agreed upon, it's not an initiative of mine - that'd be bad |
| 21:41 |
Zughy[m] |
"you've got one volunteering and put in a pr" <= that's about the manager part. I can't do that, I don't assign anything to anyone |
| 21:41 |
Zughy[m] |
nor I want to do it |
| 21:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> watching this stuff happen is quite sad. "we are volunteers, put in a pr" "no one looked at the pr, close it". as a consumer of this engine and a game dev, i wouldn't why i waste my time coding for it especially when things like godot are killing it |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> obviously i'm peasant consumer so feel free to ignore π |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i should know my place |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> (my frustration is because i care, and wonder why i care) |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but care without hope leads to dismay |
| 21:44 |
Zughy[m] |
Things like Godot give jobs to people, there is people paid for it (I'm pretty sure some of them work full-time), so you can't really compare MT with Godot |
| 21:44 |
Zughy[m] |
*there are people |
| 21:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> godot is an open source game engine where people can come along, learn, and make games on it |
| 21:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's a substitute to mt as an engine |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ultimately, mt has growing pains, it started as a small org, and has grown to the point where it needs more help, but in order to get help, it needs to support onboarding into the engine. moving from coding to onboarding isn't always fun, ofc, but if mt wants to reach it's potential, it needs to realise that that is the way to progress. of course unless it wants to remain a project of 5/6 core devs working at their own pace, |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
which is fine, but eventually, you'll lose some, and unless you replace them , the workload gets bigger, and it gets more painful, until you lose another. sustainability of this project is something you probably want to think about |
| 21:54 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you don't prioritise onboarding, you are choosing either that you will solve all future problems, or you won't and they'll never get solved |
| 21:55 |
rubenwardy |
prioritising onboarding doesn't mean that we should accept all new PRs |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i didn't say accept. reviewing and rejecting is also fine |
| 21:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> my issue is ignoring and closing |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but ignoring hurts more than "i cannot support this because of x" |
| 21:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it says your work is unworthy of my consideration |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i'm not saying do more work, and sacrifice more. i'm advocating write less code and review a little more with the time saved |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i get it isn't fun or sexy |
| 21:57 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it is important |
| 21:57 |
Zughy[m] |
I can apply the same logic to people filing a PR not in the roadmap, where the roadmap file is linked and they can understand how it works. If they file it anyway, it says "I don't care it's volunteering and I can't bother to open an issue first, so here's my PR" |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> not in the roadmap is subjective, the roadmap wording is so vague it can encompass many things |
| 21:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> mapgens once didn't have biomes, and then they did, but the solution wasn't rolled out to all supported mapgens, it became tech debt |
| 21:59 |
rubenwardy |
the idea behind discussing roadmap items in meetings is that it brings devs together to do concept approal |
| 21:59 |
Zughy[m] |
No it's not, and if you're not sure, just open an issue first to not risk it |
| 21:59 |
rubenwardy |
it's hard to prove a negative |
| 22:00 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> is mapgens that do not support biomes tech debt? |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> is that good architecture? |
| 22:01 |
rubenwardy |
maybe, doesn't effect the architecture though and I wouldn't say it's on the roadmap |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> 2.2 Internal code refactoring Β To ensure sustainable development, Minetest's code needs to be refactored and improved. This will remove code rot and allow for more efficient development. |
| 22:01 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ---- poorly supported mapgens is rot, it's tech debt |
| 22:01 |
rubenwardy |
I disagree, trailgen is not covered that |
| 22:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> v6 is rot |
| 22:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> trialgen is way to migrate away, it may not be correct or the best plan |
| 22:02 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's trying to solve the issue of rot |
| 22:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> is v6 good and fit for the future? |
| 22:03 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> is it sustainable? |
| 22:05 |
rubenwardy |
I would like to see trailgen accepted but it's not something I want to review, so hopefully someone else will add it to their list |
| 22:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's about to be closed. unless someone reviews it, the contributor will probably get bored and disappear, and it's dead. when this ticket closes, it's dead |
| 22:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> closing it is rejecting it π |
| 22:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> of course if you close it, it magically gets revised, feedback, it gets resolved, and merged, i'll eat humble pie and say how wrong i was π |
| 22:11 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> What's the alternative to closing it tho? Forcing someone to review it? |
| 22:13 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i didn't say force someone. i would ask if someone has the knowledge to review it, and maybe see if they can consider that over something else they're working on (unless the thing was on the roadmap) if that was the case, maybe after they finished that piece of work |
| 22:14 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> no one enjoys reviewing, we tend to pick it up after finishing a ticket we're working on |
| 22:15 |
pgimeno |
I really thought that #8745 would become a reality, back in the day. I wonder if it can be brought back to life instead of this trailgen thing. |
| 22:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8745 -- Add a modernised Mapgen v6? |
| 22:15 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but if only 1 person can review that thing, maybe pick up something they'd review and help them out π |
| 22:16 |
rubenwardy |
I thought trailgen was v6 + biomes? |
| 22:16 |
pgimeno |
v6-like, not v6 |
| 22:17 |
pgimeno |
the mapgen in 8745 could replace a v6 with continuity |
| 22:18 |
pgimeno |
by "with continuity" I mean that if you had a partially generated world, it would not create a frankenworld (other than because of the change of biomes) |
| 22:19 |
pgimeno |
ISTR paramat posting comparison pictures which looked exactly the same except for the look of the terrain |
| 22:20 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the complexity with something old, vs replace technically, deprecate and that becomes the recommended option skews heavily in favour of the latter imho |
| 22:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> on mcl2, we deprecated v6 already, it was a liability, and our mobs are biome dependent |
| 22:21 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's just a shame we couldn't use it and something we could use may not happen |
| 22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> I have a strong deja vu feeling from this conversation |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> Don't get me wrong, I agree that the current situation is bad and minetest is losing a lot of good contributors. |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> But I honestly don't see any alternative |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> Either you lose contributors or you lose coredevs |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i completely get the point of roadmaps and prioritising. it was probably the right call, but to go from 0% roadmap, to 100% roadmap, there is a whole range of percentages |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you're going to lose coredevs anyway, they're human, and eventually life moves on |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you don't replace them, that's not good |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and puts more burden on those remaining |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> 70% roadmap, 30% review. 85% roadmap, 15% review. there are choices |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> in my experience,the time i invest in new contributors pays itself off in future features |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i get more out of those people than i put in |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but it's important to see it not as work but another person saying "i want to help, can i?" |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and the following action is either yes, or no |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and that message is heard by that person and anyone watching or that cared about that feature |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> new contributors are plants that need to be watered, but when that plant grows, it feeds you and others |
| 22:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> people learn, improve and get better |
| 22:31 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> they don't often start shit and stay shit |
| 22:31 |
Zughy[m] |
mentoring takes time as well, so I guess that's why we're looking only for people who proved to really care about the project |
| 22:31 |
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| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> so an abusive relationship? knock 'em about a bit, and if they keep coming back for more they're a winner? |
| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> helping people is.... err satisfying and rewording |
| 22:33 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it isn't neccessarily a chore |
| 22:33 |
Zughy[m] |
And who helps us exactly? I'm part of two different volunteer realities and a lot of people just disappear after the first two weeks |
| 22:33 |
Zughy[m] |
that's why you really want to filter them out |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> why do you think they dissappear? π |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> maybe it's the people and not the process that's wrong lol |
| 22:35 |
Zughy[m] |
Because some people say "yes" too quickly without understanding what being an active part of the organisation means |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i was told months ago i was a flakey contributor, and i'd just leave, i became maintainer for 6 months plus... |
| 22:35 |
Zughy[m] |
You are not everyone |
| 22:36 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you're trying to fit people into a structure rather than build a structure around people |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> people want to give up their time and help, and it's worth telling them how |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> rather than ignoring them |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> Ahah, contributing to minetest is an abusive relationship indeed. |
| 22:37 |
Zughy[m] |
I mean, I'm literally bringing Minetest in 4 different conferences at my expenses, I think I'm doing my part |
| 22:37 |
rubenwardy |
I already review a lot more PRs than I make. The roadmap is a way of communicating the things that we want to work on next. But things can still be concept approved aside that. There's no point accepting things we don't want just in hopes of getting more people, that's self-sabotage |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> I don't think it can be fixed, but I wish you good luck |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i didn't say you wasn't helping, you're clearly passionate and trying to help. doesn't mean you're also correct as well... |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm an optimist. i think it can be fixed, and it's why i'm having this conversation |
| 22:39 |
Zughy[m] |
Let's cut the chase: what's your proposal? |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and i know i'm an annoying outsider "who the fk doesn't he think he is" |
| 22:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> add contributor onboarding as a priority, it doesn't mean the roadmap isn't important, it means this is also important |
| 22:40 |
Zughy[m] |
Ok, next: how would you do it? |
| 22:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> don't see prs and contributions as work, see it as people wanting to help |
| 22:40 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> code less, and review more π |
| 22:41 |
Zughy[m] |
not feasible. Quoting rubenwardy: "I already review a lot more PRs than I make" |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> be honest with people when it's not good rather than ignore them |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ruben is a champ |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm not saying him |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm assuming he's not the only core dev |
| 22:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> he's been open about struggling with burnout, so yeah, i wouldn't even advocate it's on him |
| 22:42 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if ruben's on fire, is someone gonna help put him out π |
| 22:43 |
Zughy[m] |
sfan5 currently has 1 PR open, SmallJoker has 2, lhofhansl has 6 and x2048 has 5 |
| 22:43 |
Zughy[m] |
14 PRs out of 79 open |
| 22:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> yes, and? |
| 22:43 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> my impression is core devs prs get reviewed, and no one elses π |
| 22:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "you're worth my time, screw these scrubs" |
| 22:44 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if a pr is open 6 months, and no one has reviewed it, do you not feel embarrassed, yet you'll review a core devs that has been open days |
| 22:45 |
Zughy[m] |
of the latest 12 commits, 3 are from core devs and 9 are not. So that's not true |
| 22:45 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i've seen prs that have been waiting a response for months, even when a core dev kind of agreed in principle |
| 22:46 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> your statistic doesn't prove what you think it does |
| 22:46 |
Zughy[m] |
(I forgot Desour, who's got 11 PRs open, most of them from the time they weren't core dev) |
| 22:47 |
Zughy[m] |
also, you're complaining about not having enough core devs, but we've just celebrated srifqi as a new core dev |
| 22:47 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> last page of merges, 6 are from insiders (including roller), 3 outsiders |
| 22:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> desour needs some love, and that sound pr is important, but it's a complex and big change |
| 22:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> complex pr's take time |
| 22:48 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's good srifqi has been brought into the fold |
| 22:49 |
Zughy[m] |
that's my point of view: if you want outsiders, go look for them. Conferences and call to actions are your best shot. We could use Mastodon and the blog to find more people |
| 22:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you have outsiders, but they're being ignored. why look for more folk to ignore? π |
| 22:49 |
Zughy[m] |
but at the same time the roadmap must be enforced if you don't want core devs drowning |
| 22:49 |
Zughy[m] |
and if they drown, that's when denial kicks in |
| 22:49 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> the roadmap must not be enforced, you sound like a cult |
| 22:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "the greater good" "the roadmap" |
| 22:50 |
rubenwardy |
I see the roadmap more as an optimisation for concept approvals and communicating our priorities |
| 22:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i don't want them drowning, i think they do too much π |
| 22:50 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> coding that is |
| 22:51 |
Zughy[m] |
The roadmap is something people can take part in, don't use the cult card thanks |
| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but do you hear yourself, everything is "the roadmap", it became some deity |
| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if i cannot back up my point. "the roadmap" |
| 22:53 |
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| 22:53 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm seeing a lot of hiding behind it |
| 22:53 |
Zughy[m] |
yeah, it's been ignored for months and, whilst I talk with you, I also have to answser to people who they're now pissed because it took months to close their ignored PRs instead of being closed after those famous 7 days |
| 22:54 |
Zughy[m] |
in short, I'm here to take all the shit |
| 22:55 |
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srifqi joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:55 |
srifqi |
hello. sorry for interrupting. can i start do core dev-spesific task or is there any onboarding process? |
| 22:55 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> you think i'm being adversarial. i'm some shit to deal with. why do you think i'm motivated to talk to you? because i see a problem, and i'm trying to highlight it. i could be nice, and agreeable, but will that help long term? probably not |
| 22:56 |
Zughy[m] |
srifqi: please do |
| 22:56 |
srifqi |
will do on the afternoon. thank you |
| 22:56 |
Zughy[m] |
<3 |
| 22:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i will leave you to it zughy, i'm obviously wasting your time. you've got it all figured out |
| 22:56 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> good luck |
| 22:58 |
Zughy[m] |
AncientMariner: I've never called you a shit, I wouldn't ever dare. You're frustrated, I get it, but you're portraying me as some cult guy for once that I apply something that's been written in two different places for months. I don't think it's fair |
| 22:58 |
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| 22:58 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> no, i didn't, i was responding to "we must enforce the roadmap" comment, it was ridiculously cult like |
| 22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> if you've seen hot fuzz "the greater good", and swap it for "the roadmap", you'll get how it comes across |
| 23:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> we can both see the problem. you have a different view to how to solve it, i've put mine across and why. you can disregard but there is value in considering alternative perspectives |
| 23:04 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> up to you |
| 23:05 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> and please understand, i'm not challenging you, and core devs, i'm challenging the process and how it's used |
| 23:06 |
Zughy[m] |
Well, roadmap or not, the current situation is that there are PRs who've been waiting for years, and it doesn't take a PhD in psychology to understand how they might feel. As an individual, I want to avoid that, because I've been there multiple times. This is not a company and we can't force people to do anything if they don't feel like doing it - also consider that some of us are fine with the current situation. We have a new core dev |
| 23:06 |
Zughy[m] |
now, so let's see how it goes, shall we? |
| 23:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> a process is to solve a problem, and if it solves 1 problem, it can create another. for a process to be effective, it should solve problems without creating more |
| 23:06 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i can, and it fills me with dread, but it seems you're quite set on learning this one yourself π |
| 23:07 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> good luck |
| 23:08 |
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| 23:08 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> "This is not a company and we can't force people to do anything if they don't feel like doing it" and "contributors must work to the roadmap" feels contradictory btw |
| 23:09 |
Zughy[m] |
Dude, if you can't see past "roadmap" in my messages, I don't know what to tell you :\ |
| 23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> ? |
| 23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i responded to your comment |
| 23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> but ok |
| 23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> i'm going to leave this |
| 23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> it's going nowhere |
| 23:11 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> good evening |
| 23:17 |
MTDiscord |
<AncientMariner> btw, the cult comment was a joke based on this scene, probably didn't translate too well if you haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u8vd_YNbTw |
| 23:21 |
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| 23:25 |
Zughy[m] |
srifqi: now that you're core dev, remember you can self-approve your own PRs (such as #13526) |
| 23:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13526 -- Option to invert direction or disable mouse wheel for hotbar item selection by srifqi |
