| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:15 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
<kilbith> "being poor is more a mentality..." <- this is such an entitled bigoted loaded BS I've ever seen from someone on the internet, seemed like an asumption that people can be not poor by doing anything to get money -- are you suggesting people should be doing illegal stuff just to not be poor?? for example, by selling something to get money when selling stuff even in small amount require license in some country but you need |
| 00:15 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
to pay to get the license to begin with; or by robbing the bank; or by trying to get job by lying because you're not qualified to get that job; or by smuggling out of the country to get job in other country because you can't apply for passport due to government discrimination; etc?? there's always circumstances for people being poor and not just a mentality, if you think otherwise then YOU are part of the problem that caused |
| 00:15 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
poverty, put your foot down and see actual people around you, stop being so ignorant |
| 00:41 |
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| 00:59 |
schwarzwald[m] |
What causes poverty is relevant to development decisions how? |
| 01:03 |
lebruhgamer[m] |
idk, my chat earlier was just replying to them |
| 01:14 |
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| 04:00 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 08:30 |
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| 08:31 |
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| 08:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> lebruhgamer: please be aware that this is MT-dev |
| 08:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> there is a decision to be made with how old hardware we want to support |
| 08:34 |
celeron55 |
kilbith's opinions don't have anything to do with that though, that's just offtopic |
| 08:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yes |
| 08:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> we should actually figure out how many people are running on how old hardware though |
| 08:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I suppose if you can afford Internet you can also afford 5 year old hardware |
| 08:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (just a guess though) |
| 08:35 |
celeron55 |
well that's definitely not true |
| 08:35 |
celeron55 |
but let's say 12 year old hardware |
| 08:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> which hardware lasts 12 years nowadays ;-) |
| 08:36 |
celeron55 |
many students and such get internet for free, but have to pay for hardware |
| 08:36 |
celeron55 |
so internet is top notch but hardware is utter crap |
| 08:36 |
celeron55 |
a lot of hardware lasts 12 years easily. not the consumer stuff, but business stuff |
| 08:37 |
celeron55 |
that's for PCs of course |
| 08:37 |
celeron55 |
when talking about android, it's a shitshow |
| 08:37 |
celeron55 |
they sell phones new that are basically useless for any apps |
| 08:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> so we draw the line at the top-notch hardware when Minetest was written? |
| 08:38 |
celeron55 |
well, i think that could happen to be a reasonable limit |
| 08:38 |
rubenwardy |
should be a sliding limit, top end hardware 12 years ago |
| 08:41 |
celeron55 |
i can imagine what eg. erle would say to this. something along the lines of "everything should be supported if possible" |
| 08:42 |
celeron55 |
but MT can't really afford to lose the top end hardware users of today by being held back by extremely old hardware |
| 08:42 |
celeron55 |
that's the general problem i think |
| 08:43 |
celeron55 |
top end hardware 12 years ago kind of matches the 200€ laptops you can get new today (that nobody should buy) |
| 08:46 |
celeron55 |
the only way the latter is better is it that it consumes about 5% of the power of the former |
| 08:46 |
celeron55 |
-it |
| 08:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> oi, looks like you can get a thinkpad with 8gb RAM and a core i5 for 250 bucks nowadays |
| 08:46 |
celeron55 |
new? |
| 08:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> arguably refurbished |
| 08:47 |
celeron55 |
i guess i'm getting old. where are the atoms and other slow processors? |
| 08:48 |
celeron55 |
i'm not interested in used prices. you can get great hardware for free if you're not in a hurry |
| 08:49 |
rubenwardy |
another issue is that current cheap hardware tends to support newer standards than old topend hardware |
| 08:49 |
rubenwardy |
also iGPUs are much much better these days |
| 08:50 |
rubenwardy |
although top end hardware wouldn't be iGPUs |
| 08:51 |
celeron55 |
12 years old integrated gpus are pretty much obsolete today |
| 08:51 |
celeron55 |
10 years old could still make sense |
| 08:53 |
celeron55 |
the intel HD series was launched 2010 and in a year or two from that it got into normal hardware |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
any intel HD is perfectly adequate for MT |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
anything before those, i think it obsolete |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
is* |
| 08:55 |
celeron55 |
and here, erle would got mad with his gma900 series |
| 09:01 |
nrz |
i started to dev MT on a radeon HD 4890, which is very obsolete for today, but always good for MT, as we don't added fancy graphics features ? |
| 09:01 |
celeron55 |
anyway that's pretty much my view on this. 12 year old with an external GPU and anything with intel HD should still run MT |
| 09:01 |
celeron55 |
12 year old top spec, i mean |
| 09:03 |
rubenwardy |
anyway, there's a difference between old and cheap. Eliteism, bigotry, and such ignorance is not acceptable |
| 09:04 |
celeron55 |
basically like... the official system requirements of windows 10 |
| 09:04 |
celeron55 |
except that MT actually runs on this hardware, i wouldn't say so about windows 10 |
| 09:13 |
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| 09:33 |
sfan5 |
on that topic we should figure out how many users can't run opengl with shaders |
| 09:34 |
celeron55 |
it's basically the users running pre-intel-HD iGPUs |
| 09:34 |
celeron55 |
that i just proposed to shove under the bus |
| 09:35 |
celeron55 |
that's precisely where the pain point has been for years now |
| 09:35 |
celeron55 |
i agree getting some numbers wouldn't hurt |
| 09:35 |
sfan5 |
hopefully no "well it can technically run shaders but not at acceptable performance" issues crop up with iHD then |
| 09:36 |
celeron55 |
no they won't. it's so much faster |
| 09:36 |
celeron55 |
of course depends on the shaders |
| 09:37 |
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| 09:38 |
celeron55 |
in 2010 it was considered ridiculous MT didn't require or use shaders. 12 years have passed since that. if i happened to have a computer with an external gpu back then, MT would have never supported the fixed pipeline |
| 09:38 |
celeron55 |
it's quite the dice roll |
| 09:54 |
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| 10:03 |
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| 10:11 |
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| 10:13 |
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| 11:16 |
kilbith |
"Eliteism, bigotry, and such ignorance is not acceptable" -> I didn't add up to the topic to respect the channel rules but do not fuel the flames please |
| 11:16 |
kilbith |
and also fuck off, you have a personal issue with me |
| 11:22 |
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| 11:35 |
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| 11:37 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> funny you're the one saying that |
| 12:59 |
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| 13:02 |
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| 13:15 |
MTDiscord |
<MarkTheSmeagol> Please don't feed the trolls |
| 13:20 |
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| 13:22 |
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| 13:34 |
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| 13:48 |
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| 13:54 |
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| 14:03 |
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| 14:06 |
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| 15:00 |
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| 16:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> I’d just have a rolling 10 year window with each release for a minimum supported Intel CPU generation |
| 16:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> If the iGPU doesn’t support OpenGL 3x then drop it |
| 16:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> A 600 nvidia GPU or later should run Minetest under any CPU generation just terribly |
| 17:12 |
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| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
well i'd hope we'd require opengl 2 first |
| 17:29 |
kilbith |
GL 2.1 is 20 years old |
| 17:31 |
Desour |
wikipedia says 16 years |
| 17:31 |
kilbith |
GL 3.x is a more reasonnable guess, especially that we can do things more efficiently with the glMultiDraw functions that are vacant from OpenGL 2.x |
| 17:32 |
kilbith |
any refurbished 200€ laptop today can support OpenGL 3.x |
| 17:33 |
kilbith |
and anyone in the Western world is able to spend 200€. go work at McDonald and boom, you're not poor anymore! |
| 17:37 |
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| 18:00 |
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| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> hell haswell CPUs that are close to turning 10 years old support 4.2 |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> which are still capable of excellent game performance and even run a current day GPU without much issue |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> it's just the thinkpad cult who believes they should be catered to |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> even if it's the detriment of everyone else |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> oh my old haswell from 2014 supported 4.3 |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
anyway does someone not agree intel HD is a reasonable minimum requirement? i think those do support gl 3 |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
or more like these, i have one also... like millions of people |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> yeah intel HD is the reasonable bareminimum since they're the same iGPU on mobile |
| 18:07 |
Desour |
will there be a separate minimum requirement for android? |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> "if it runs it runs" |
| 18:07 |
Desour |
(or other devices that currently use the gles stuff) |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> nobody can guarantee manufacturers to not do stupid shit with their ES drivers |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
the main platform for MT is PC, requirements on other platforms have to be derived from that in some reasonable way |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i'd treat android on a per manufacturer basis for how good are their drivers scenario |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> rather than pure performance |
| 18:09 |
rubenwardy |
The minimum requirements for Android should be higher by age but lower by power |
| 18:09 |
rubenwardy |
Like, I wouldn't support older than 5 years |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> that's a reasonable minimum given the pace of the mobile market |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
well, if we choose to drop GL<3.0 and GLES<3.0, then that defines the devices |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
not that any manufacturer advertises anything based on what GL version it supports |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
it's going to have to be a community maintained list |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> similar to the old cyanogenmod compatibility list |
| 18:11 |
Desour |
everything supports opengl 4.6, with the mesa software thing |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> (so does my M1 mac under linux) |
| 18:12 |
Desour |
btw. is it planned to have separate implementations for a bit older and very recent gpus? |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> that would be bloat |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> and requiring two lots of maintenance |
| 18:13 |
Desour |
but it would be sad if we can't use (for optimization) any features that exceed the new minimum |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
there probably isn't enough resources to do that |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
it would require new engine internal apis to be designed and implemented |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> just list the required GL[SL] requirements when you check it's box |
| 18:26 |
schwarzwald[m] |
It's not like Minetest is out of stuff to improve and needs more. |
| 18:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> if people want the graphics fancies turned on they should have the requesite hardware, but not locking out the base game out either |
| 18:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> having them as pure optional with (X OpenGL requirement) is fine |
| 19:10 |
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| 19:22 |
celeron55 |
that more than doubles the workload though |
| 19:22 |
celeron55 |
with those requirements i personally aren't expecting anyone to want to develop gl 3 stuff |
| 19:23 |
celeron55 |
that's what i talk about when i say old systems are holding MT back |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
anyway personally i don't mind, it's just that it may not be in the best interest of the project |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> for every 100 users the fancy graphics bring in, 1 is likely to end up writing engine code |
| 19:28 |
celeron55 |
every year opengl 1 and 2 become more obsolete. one of these years must be the year that they're dropped |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> macOS can run upto OpenGL 4.2 via the usage of OpenGL contexts# |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> which is apparently the proper way to enable/disable certain OpenGL features |
| 19:32 |
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| 19:33 |
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| 19:35 |
sfan5 |
do we have any concrete features from 3.0 we want or why is this being proposed? |
| 19:36 |
Desour |
it would be very useful to have array textures |
| 19:36 |
Desour |
to reduce the number of drawcalls per mapblock |
| 19:36 |
rubenwardy |
New opengl versions have features that allow you to improve performance by communicating with the gpu less. Fewer draw calls |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> we should probably have MT 6 when we break a lot of things by chopping out even more irrlicht and introducing a hard requirement for OpenGL 3.x |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
the problem is, i don't know enough modern opengl to propose any actual features to use |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
if you search the logs for what hecks has been blabbing about, that'll give an actual introduction to the subject |
| 19:40 |
celeron55 |
altough i wouldn't rely on him doing any of the work |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i treat MT 6's "roadmap" or "milestone" as exploratory and experimental |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> if you don't know what to do with it, start experimenting |
| 19:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> let mad science produce results and learn from them |
| 19:40 |
sfan5 |
I don't remember what hecks mentioned but I do remember that he proposed writing our own renderer that'd essentially use the common subset of OpenGL 2.0 / GLES 2.0 |
| 19:41 |
sfan5 |
Desour: sounds like binding multiple textures would be more flexible there unless we run into limits there |
| 19:41 |
celeron55 |
yes 2.0 was more of the intention |
| 19:42 |
celeron55 |
altough hecks had plans for newer versions also |
| 19:42 |
Desour |
btw. with modern gl, we could try to do client-side mapblock occlusion culling by doing occlusion querries (or something similar with atomic bools, because afaik there's just one occlusion querry at once allowed) of mapblock bounding boxed using the depth buffer of last frame |
| 19:42 |
sfan5 |
irrlicht can do that IIRC |
| 19:42 |
sfan5 |
for example I bet you could merge the buffers of the two most common nodes in mapblocks if it's stuff like stone & dirt |
| 19:44 |
sfan5 |
I've been thinking that particles would be a good first target for an entire rewrite with shaders in mind because it's fairly small and self-contained (you don't get into the million options nodes have) |
| 19:45 |
Desour |
sfan5: what I meant was that you then pass an index for the texture in the vertex buffer. AFAIK, this does not work if you use multiple bound textures, because `if (idx==1) col=texture(tex1, uvpos) else if (idx==2) col=texture(tex2,uvpos)` has to sample both textures for all framgents |
| 19:46 |
sfan5 |
hmm, not sure |
| 19:47 |
Desour |
bindless textures would also work, but they are just an extension (AFAIK many intel gpus still don't support them) |
| 19:47 |
rubenwardy |
particles are especially well-suited for GPUs as well |
| 19:47 |
rubenwardy |
assuming you don't want oncollide callbacks |
| 19:47 |
Desour |
we can also do animation in shaders then btw |
| 19:48 |
sfan5 |
looks like you can bind multiple textures into a sampler2D array |
| 19:49 |
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| 19:51 |
Desour |
^ that does also not work. see https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Data_Type_(GLSL)#Opaque_arrays |
| 19:51 |
Desour |
(at least if the sampler2Ds are bound textures and not bindless texture handle things) |
| 19:52 |
celeron55 |
what i don't see is leaving out obsolete gl versions to have a large effect in comparison to just implementing more aggressive batching on the cpu side, basically just bigger meshes |
| 19:53 |
celeron55 |
i'm trying to get to working on some of that |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> My pc is from 2009 and only supports 2.1 btw...maybe thew version is 15+ years old but the industry doesn't stop releasing older versions with newer hardware right away |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Electronic stores here also still sell Android 9 devices |
| 19:54 |
rubenwardy |
2009 would be outside of the proposed support Window |
| 19:54 |
Desour |
we could also do gl 2, but with some extensions |
| 19:54 |
rubenwardy |
Will OpenGL ES work on old devices that support GL2? |
| 19:55 |
rubenwardy |
if we were to support two renderers, say using bgfx, could we have a OGL ES 2.0 one and a OpenGL3/4/Vulkan one |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
this all feels quite hypothetical though, do we even have anyone that would want and have time to rewrite the renderer to use newer features |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
anyway my entire point was that we should aim for opengl 2.0 and if whoever does the work notices that savings could be made using some newer feature we can talk about it |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
yeah that sounds like a solid approach |
| 19:57 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Would this OpenGL3+ only version be 6.0 then? |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
perhaps, but doesn't need to be |
| 19:58 |
celeron55 |
what i'm saying is if someone with actual knowledge looks into it and propose to use features that aren't available in old gl versions, it will be considered |
| 19:58 |
celeron55 |
proposes* |
| 19:59 |
celeron55 |
_without_ requiring them to implement a separate mode for supporting obsolete hardware |
| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
how this relates to getting a more modern look for the rendered result... who knows. depends on the artistic skills of the graphics person i guess |
| 20:03 |
rubenwardy |
I think if you can sprinkle some fancy effects whilst modernising and improving performance, you get both a faster game and pretty screenshots for release posts |
| 20:06 |
celeron55 |
but you basically have to first respect them and only then expect to get something |
| 20:06 |
celeron55 |
saying "but it has to run on fixed pipeline" to a graphics programmer is an insult |
| 20:09 |
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| 20:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> @IhrFussel I suppose if you don't mind, could you elaborate on why you're still using a 12 year old laptop? I get not needing to upgrade, but eventually software is gonna need newer stuff |
| 20:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Unfortunately with something like OpenGL, it's very much tied to the hardware |
| 20:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Sorry, 13 year old |
| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
it's probably not a laptop |
| 20:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> I thought I read laptop, same difference for the discussion I suppose |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
a laptop of that age is practically useless, a top spec desktop can be useful |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
my 8 year old top spec laptop is perfectly usable for anything i do for work or hobbies |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
and it better be, it was very expensive and i better get my money's worth |
| 20:38 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> I don't have much money so I simply looked for an used older pc |
| 20:39 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> And until this one dies I don't think I'll need another |
| 20:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> My mid-tier 6-year-old laptop does what I need to most things, but it doesn't game well. MT works alright on it though, and I've done IKEA dev on it |
| 20:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> @IhrFussel I mean, at what point is older hardware not worth the dev time for us to support? If there are benefits to be had for using more modern tech, when should we be able to pull the plug on old hardware? |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
IhrFussel: what CPU does it have? |
| 20:43 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Intel Pentium Dual-Core |
| 20:44 |
celeron55 |
so the predecessor to i3 basically |
| 20:45 |
celeron55 |
or well, basically the same thing, different name |
| 20:45 |
celeron55 |
oh wait |
| 20:46 |
celeron55 |
no, it's probably a 65 nm processor, Allendale or something |
| 20:46 |
celeron55 |
similar to core 2 duo |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Nope, 45 nm |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
ok, that's basically the fastest processor you can possibly get without getting an intel HD iGPU with it |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
it will still have the integrated GPU separate from the CPU so the GPU will be much slower than intel HD |
| 20:52 |
kilbith |
https://www.amazon.fr/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X230-8Go-128Go-Reconditionn%C3%A9/dp/B00CBWH4YU/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1660855877&refinements=p_36%3A9733299031%2Cp_n_feature_twenty-three_browse-bin%3A27388180031%2Cp_n_feature_fifteen_browse-bin%3A8323130031%7C8323131031%7C8323132031&rnid=8323110031&s=computers&sr=1-1 |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
i guess one of those has enough single thread performance to make it still useful |
| 20:52 |
kilbith |
Intel HD Graphics 4000 for only 180€ |
| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
that's like 2.5x faster than the pentium dual-core and almost infinitely faster graphics |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Btw I didn't say that MT absolutely needs to support my Open GL version in the future...it would be cool if there would be no breakage between server & client so that I could still play even with 5.6 or 5.7 (assuming 5.8 would be the newer graphics) |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
i'd say whatever iGPU the pentium dual-core comes with will have the fate of pretty much a dice roll depending on the exact extensions it supports |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
in the upcoming years |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
it suffers from being a high end processor from a retiring cpu generation |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
as you already said i think |
| 20:58 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Would it be possible to update the client's graphics while still allowing older clients to connect to newer servers? Or is that too much work? |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
can't predict such details |
| 21:01 |
celeron55 |
but it's true it would give a bit more time for old systems if the graphics updates wouldn't be done in an otherwise breaking release |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
even this seems too much detail to plan now though. i don't think we have anyone wanting to do even GL 2 stuff atm |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
i just wanted to bring this up so that nobody following development won't be surprised when it happens |
| 21:04 |
rubenwardy |
updated #libresprite |
| 21:04 |
rubenwardy |
heh |
| 21:04 |
rubenwardy |
updated #12542 |
| 21:04 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12542 -- Prevent loading a world with unresolved dependencies by rubenwardy |
| 21:04 |
rubenwardy |
need to check what's on my clipboard before pasting into IRC |
| 21:18 |
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| 23:01 |
diceLibrarian |
what did you do? |
| 23:03 |
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