| Time |
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Message |
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| 03:39 |
MTDiscord |
<LandarVargan> It looks like for the MT mapgen settings that end with , eased that flag actually isn't saved, and it shows up as defaults in map_meta.txt |
| 03:40 |
MTDiscord |
<LandarVargan> e.g mgflat_np_terrain, which is noise_params_2d 0, 1, (600, 600, 600), 7244, 5, 0.6, 2.0, eased by default |
| 03:44 |
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| 06:12 |
celeron55 |
Zughy[m]: i don't think anyone would have anything against you leading a meeting. it's just bringing up and closing the meeting topics so not a big deal regardless of how you think about it |
| 06:21 |
celeron55 |
and the meeting topics generally being issues and PRs it's something you definitely know something about |
| 07:10 |
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| 07:45 |
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| 08:16 |
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| 08:17 |
nrz |
i was afk previous evening, about formspec, having rendering server side show the issue we have with formspec size . We don't have relative notation in order to size the formspec ? for example: 80% of the parent like in CSS ? I didn't coded a formspec for a while or see any information about a such feature |
| 08:19 |
nrz |
that prevent complex things like storing end user window size server side |
| 08:19 |
nrz |
(and also it shows that the limits of our server side formspec, and we need at a point to have real client side formspecs with actions server side) |
| 08:36 |
sfan5 |
merging #12695 #12652 in 10m |
| 08:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12695 -- Cut back on Gitlab-ci & misc. updates by sfan5 |
| 08:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12652 -- Remove resolution of appstream screenshots by farribeiro |
| 08:38 |
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| 08:39 |
lionkor |
its really fun to work on this, its a wonderful workflow |
| 08:40 |
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| 08:42 |
rubenwardy |
#12703 |
| 08:42 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12703 -- ContentDB: Fix crash when trying to overwrite a package by rubenwardy |
| 08:42 |
rubenwardy |
also adds unit tests to pkgmgr.install_dir |
| 08:43 |
rubenwardy |
found a few other bugs too |
| 08:55 |
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| 09:02 |
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| 09:32 |
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| 09:37 |
Zughy[m] |
fun fact: 117 issues are by Wuzzy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/created_by/wuzzy2 |
| 09:43 |
sfan5 |
looks like gitlab moved repository mirroring to the paid plan which is why half our repos don't mirror anymore |
| 09:43 |
sfan5 |
what a joke |
| 09:43 |
sfan5 |
and this is what people have been constantly suggesting we move to? |
| 09:47 |
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| 09:57 |
Zughy[m] |
People have been suggesting something that doesn't belong to some big corporation, waiting to be sabotaged like they did with a lot of other products (see Minecraft for instance, or Atom, to name recent cases) |
| 09:58 |
Zughy[m] |
nobody has ever said that GL is perfect |
| 10:02 |
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| 10:12 |
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| 10:17 |
rubenwardy |
GitLab is self-sabotaging faster than Microsoft can ruin GitHub |
| 10:21 |
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| 10:22 |
rubenwardy |
GitLab wasn't really a good alternative as it's still owned by a company and isn't fully open source |
| 10:27 |
sfan5 |
I can understand that gitlab has to use free handouts more sparingly but for a FOSS project really moving to a worse platform is out of question |
| 10:41 |
Zughy[m] |
then you have people suggesting either Codeberg or Gitea, but I guess this is more of a meeting topic |
| 10:56 |
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| 11:13 |
nrz |
sfan5: honestly ? Maybe we need to do some déclaration about Oss project... |
| 11:13 |
nrz |
I like gitlab but their governance on their public instance is Not on their favor |
| 11:15 |
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| 11:20 |
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| 11:25 |
Zughy[m] |
the point is, if we ever change, a lot of active contributors will follow no matter where we go. If sfan, krock, ruben, x2048 and lhofhansl move, you already have all the active core devs. Then there would be me (triager), MisterE (blog) and long time contributors such as Wuzzy and - I'm pretty sure - appguru. Congratulations, you still have Minetest |
| 11:25 |
Zughy[m] |
moreover, we'll be able to set a good example and fuel the development of the platform we've chosen |
| 11:34 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> What would be the issue with a full mirroring? |
| 11:36 |
lionkor |
I've only contributed once but anything that takes my SSH and GPG key and has a PR UI is good enough |
| 11:37 |
lionkor |
you might wanna split docs like the lua api doc on github to keep the barrier low for it |
| 11:39 |
Zughy[m] |
related to docs: this seems dead https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs |
| 11:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It unfortunately pretty much is |
| 11:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I have a couple large-ish WIP PRs |
| 11:43 |
Zughy[m] |
I think MT should make up its mind about documentation: it's everywhere, and usually not up-to-date (see the dev wiki) |
| 11:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Agreed |
| 11:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The problem just is that we're lacking manpower everywhere ? |
| 11:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Especially for the chore-ish tasks like mt_docs |
| 11:45 |
Zughy[m] |
I think that the real problem is, there is no real assessment for these things and they happen "just because". And that's what you get |
| 11:48 |
Zughy[m] |
when you (plural) decided to bring that project to life, did both the parties (you and who said yes) consider the manpower needed in the first place and the average free time you spend on MT? |
| 11:50 |
Zughy[m] |
And, out of curiosity, why was this agreed upon without dismantling the Lua API section of the dev wiki first (which makes more harm than good)? Sorry, this is my management side speaking |
| 11:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> tightens tie |
| 11:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Because I have no power there |
| 11:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I can't edit the dev wiki |
| 11:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Pretty much only the devs (and Wuzzy?) can |
| 11:52 |
lionkor |
doesn't that defeat the point of a wiki :D |
| 11:54 |
rubenwardy |
anyone can request access to the dev wiki |
| 11:54 |
rubenwardy |
or player wiki |
| 11:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Zughy: To answer your question: No, we certainly didn't consider time management |
| 11:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Otherwise we would find time for it |
| 11:55 |
Zughy[m] |
well, as a modder and core team member, you have my blessing to dismantle that section. Pointing to the modding book and the lua_api.txt is enough. I don't know what the others think though |
| 11:58 |
Zughy[m] |
RE: "no we certainly didn't consider time management" |
| 11:58 |
Zughy[m] |
Not good, at all. Basically now we have something unfinished taking time from one of the most active engine contributors, potentially stressing them out |
| 12:00 |
Zughy[m] |
Also because it's not a one time thing. Every time the engine gets some major updates, that documentation must be changed too. And we both know this is not going to happen |
| 12:03 |
Zughy[m] |
IMO people can already help ruben with the modding book if they want, even if we're talking about two slightly different things. There's no need to increase the pile of things we should care about, when we clearly don't have enough manpower/time. If core devs would ever consider to dismantle the minetest_docs repo as well, you have my +1 |
| 12:04 |
sfan5 |
as long as I'm not required to update that repo all is fine by me |
| 12:32 |
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| 12:32 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> "anyone can request access to the dev wiki" that access seems to just allow for plastering 90% of the dev wiki with "UNOFFICIAL DO NOT USE" rather than actually deleting the pages and doing the cleanup, in the case of wuzzy's access to it |
| 12:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Is deleting the pages permanent or can they be brought back? Either way make sure to back up pages. |
| 12:38 |
Zughy[m] |
Why do you need a backup of something broken? |
| 12:40 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> the cleanup would mean deleting things that are completely redundant and outdated, mediawiki has a page export feature and I think also keep revision history for deleted pages but in general what would be deleted would be things that don't serve any purpose to anyone to warrant a backup |
| 12:54 |
celeron55 |
does anyone have an idea about how many % of the dev wiki actually is useful |
| 12:56 |
celeron55 |
certainly only a few pages are useful to me - those related to the organization |
| 12:57 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> well the amount of pages proposed for deletion is 314 and the amount of content pages (i.e. main article pages, not userpages or redirects) is 356 so... about 13% of it |
| 12:58 |
celeron55 |
would a forum or discord poll make sense to figure out whether newcomers find it more useful than us? |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
my proposal is to just delete the pages proposed for deletion, and label the wiki to be intended more towards organizational things and engine internals rather than API documentation |
| 13:00 |
|
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| 13:01 |
celeron55 |
replacing the content of pages with links to elsewhere about relevant subjects probably makes sense |
| 13:01 |
celeron55 |
it wouldn't be nice to end up in the wiki and not find any help at all |
| 13:02 |
Zughy[m] |
agreed |
| 13:02 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> yeah pretty much my thoughts exactly |
| 13:03 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> I do find the dev wiki to have some useful gems relating to the engine, but having it also contain lua API documentation was a bad idea |
| 13:03 |
Zughy[m] |
actually, we can't take care not even of the engine. Proof: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10056 |
| 13:03 |
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| 13:05 |
MTDiscord |
<ROllerozxa> most newcomers probably only know the dev wiki as the site with odd api documentation that people in the discord server tells you not to use, if that was gone then the actual HTML rendered pages of lua_api.txt would probably appear above it in google search results |
| 13:07 |
celeron55 |
Zughy[m]: i suspect most don't even realize there is some engine documentation in the devwiki |
| 13:08 |
Zughy[m] |
probably, but the point is no one has taken care of it in these years, except when someone else had pushed to actually write something (and then it was dead again) |
| 13:08 |
Zughy[m] |
which I understand, considering the amount of work core devs already have to face. At least, PRs are decreasing now |
| 13:09 |
celeron55 |
well the thing is, even if it's old it's not irrelevant. MT's structure doesn't change that much, just some bells and whistles are added now and then |
| 13:12 |
celeron55 |
things have been reworked over time but rework generally doesn't change the structure or how it works, it just makes it a bit neater in one way or another |
| 13:33 |
Zughy[m] |
so we keep the engine and organisation sections, blowing up the API part? It sounds great to me |
| 13:33 |
Zughy[m] |
Actually, can I have an account as well? To edit the meeting section when I need to |
| 13:33 |
Zughy[m] |
I had one but it doesn't work anymore |
| 13:36 |
rubenwardy |
PM me your email |
| 13:38 |
rubenwardy |
oh Zughy already exists, maybe celeron55 can reset your password? |
| 13:38 |
Zughy[m] |
let me see if I can reset it |
| 13:38 |
rubenwardy |
found the form |
| 13:38 |
rubenwardy |
lets see if wiki emails work now |
| 13:38 |
rubenwardy |
x doubt |
| 13:39 |
celeron55 |
good luck |
| 13:40 |
celeron55 |
i think i managed to make the forum send emails reasonably well but the wikis are still a mystery |
| 13:41 |
celeron55 |
think of it as extra security: an attacker can't attempt a password reset! |
| 13:41 |
Zughy[m] |
done, I'm in |
| 13:42 |
celeron55 |
ok so there's no extra security, what a bummer |
| 13:56 |
Zughy[m] |
I can't delete wiki pages, apparently I need some high level permission: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help_talk:Deleting_a_page |
| 13:57 |
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| 13:58 |
celeron55 |
are there many pages that should be just deleted without leaving a link to somewhere else? |
| 13:59 |
Zughy[m] |
I guess all the Lua API pages |
| 13:59 |
Zughy[m] |
lel https://dev.minetest.net/TODO#TODO_in_Minetest_Game |
| 14:00 |
sfan5 |
now that amkes me wonder what are terasologys trees like? |
| 14:00 |
celeron55 |
i'd consider emptying the pages but adding a link to the relevant section in https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/ or something |
| 14:01 |
sfan5 |
makes* |
| 14:02 |
celeron55 |
would also give some SEO to the linked better documentation page |
| 14:02 |
celeron55 |
i mean, it's stupid but it works |
| 14:02 |
celeron55 |
so it's not stupid |
| 14:23 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I don't see dismantling the dev wiki as a prerequisite to the minetest docs project at all. The point of the endeavor is to create a documentation source that promotes consistency, detail, and usability, which is far more than the current documentation can say. Progress is slow but we are volunteers. At least someone is trying. |
| 14:37 |
Zughy[m] |
it's not a prerequisite, it's about keeping things clean |
| 14:44 |
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| 14:46 |
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| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That was never something Minetest cared about before |
| 14:49 |
sfan5 |
and? |
| 14:50 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Thank you for your useful input |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I really do not appreciate people complaining about a volunteer project being slow and pointing out extraneous nearly-irrelevant issues instead of coming up with strategies or questions to get the project moving along |
| 14:52 |
sfan5 |
I was asking you what you meant by that |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That was far from clear, I apologize |
| 14:53 |
sfan5 |
is it "we never cared about keeping the dev wiki clean so we shouldn't now"? |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It meant "why are you claiming cleanliness as a reason this project shouldn't exist when that has never been an issue in the past" |
| 14:54 |
sfan5 |
are we talking about the dev wiki now or minetest_docs? |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> The latter |
| 14:55 |
sfan5 |
I thought cleanliness was about why 90% of the dev wiki should be deleted |
| 14:55 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That is fine and not what I an referring to |
| 14:56 |
sfan5 |
you were referring to the earlier comments then, that wasn't clear |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Zughy understood but I apologize anyway then |
| 14:57 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I figured my message referring to both projects and the prior messages would have implied that but perhaps it didnt |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But bow that we are hopefully on the same page |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Now* |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> My takeaway from zughy was "the minetest docs project should not have been approved because you can't put consistent time commitment into it and the dev wiki should have been dismantled first", which is simply ridiculous |
| 14:58 |
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| 15:02 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> My hope is that I gravely misunderstood, but that doesn't appear to be the case yet |
| 15:07 |
sfan5 |
that is basically what I understood too |
| 15:28 |
celeron55 |
i don't think it matters in which order those things are done |
| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
the end result is the same - cleaned up dev wiki + better docs elsewhere |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
as long as you're working towards that end result it's what we want |
| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
some people like to work in a way where they first clean up and then start a new thing |
| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
the way i tend to work is i just start a new project on the remains of others |
| 16:45 |
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| 17:13 |
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| 17:17 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: how do I test #12703 ? |
| 17:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12703 -- [NoSquash] ContentDB: Fix crash when trying to overwrite a package by rubenwardy |
| 17:18 |
rubenwardy |
mkdir mods/basic_materials && touch mods/basic_materials/init.lua |
| 17:18 |
rubenwardy |
attempt to install basic_materials, there will be a dialog select overwrite, it will crash on master |
| 17:19 |
rubenwardy |
will add to PR op |
| 17:22 |
Zughy[m] |
GreenXenith: my point was "if you start something, you're now responsible of it". If 4-5 people started minetest_docs and it's been 6 months nobody touched anything but one person (who's already pretty busy with other stuff), that's poor thinking. Because we've ended up with yet another unfinished docs and, if I hadn't mentioned the topic earlier, it'd probably have remained buried for some more time |
| 17:24 |
Zughy[m] |
and now there's probably someone that wants to write to work on it because of me mentioning. Imagine if CDB or MTirrlicht worked following the same principle since it's volunteering |
| 17:24 |
Zughy[m] |
*to want to work / mentioning it |
| 17:26 |
rubenwardy |
Good thing that ContentDB is finished software and has zero bugs |
| 17:35 |
nrz |
rubenwardy, unless next dependency release for bugfix/secfix ? |
| 17:37 |
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| 17:46 |
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| 17:48 |
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| 17:57 |
Zughy[m] |
celeron55: are you sure it's better to edit these pages (https://dev.minetest.net/Category:Proposed_for_deletion) with external links rather than completely deleting them? |
| 17:58 |
Zughy[m] |
Deleting require less time ? |
| 17:58 |
Zughy[m] |
*requires |
| 17:58 |
Zughy[m] |
also https://dev.minetest.net/MinetestWiki:TODO#Delete_pages_marked_for_deletion |
| 18:04 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: game overwriting gets stuck while downloading |
| 18:05 |
Krock |
wait sorry, my bad. it works |
| 18:12 |
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| 18:15 |
celeron55 |
Zughy[m]: yeah that's some work. maybe they should be just deleted |
| 18:16 |
celeron55 |
Zughy[m]: you are zughy on the devwiki, right? |
| 18:16 |
celeron55 |
Zughy* |
| 18:17 |
Zughy[m] |
yep |
| 18:18 |
Zughy[m] |
I can make them go away before tomorrow |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
i gave you the admin privilege for 1 month and a permanent moderator privilege |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
i actually have no idea what the moderator privilege allows |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
so, i don't have time to go through all of those pages marked for deletion |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
but IMO any pages that clearly are inferior documentation than what's available officially elsewhere (including the modding book and whatnot) can be deleted |
| 18:24 |
celeron55 |
the next task after that is to figure out how to lead those seeking the info into the proper places |
| 18:27 |
rubenwardy |
what's the difference between `str_split` and `split` in util/string.h? |
| 18:30 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: split allows escaping delimiters |
| 18:30 |
Krock |
just by looking at the code |
| 18:31 |
celeron55 |
it seems to allow escaping anything |
| 18:31 |
celeron55 |
including the delimiter |
| 18:31 |
Krock |
also sorry for yesterday. I should've continued the meeting, but was probably too tired at that point. If we could do the meeting earlier next time, that would be great. |
| 18:32 |
rubenwardy |
is there a unit test util for comparing arrays? |
| 18:33 |
Krock |
memcmp using the first array index then calculate the length? |
| 18:33 |
Krock |
ah.. for strings that won't work tho |
| 18:33 |
rubenwardy |
it's a std::vector<std::string> |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
i think split() should be renamed escape_split() or something |
| 18:34 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: find_if, then use a lambda to compare indices? |
| 18:34 |
rubenwardy |
minetest could do a lot better at helpful utils for code reuse |
| 18:35 |
celeron55 |
construct std::arrays with the std::vector elements and then just ==? 8) |
| 18:36 |
celeron55 |
C++ is silly, there are so many wrong ways of doing things |
| 18:36 |
sfan5 |
you can use std::equal between different types of containers |
| 18:36 |
sfan5 |
I think |
| 18:36 |
celeron55 |
yeah i was going to suggest that as the serious suggestion |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
I actually only need one test case with 3 elements, so I just did it manually. Only 4 lines |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
std::equal and a size comparison |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
or does it compare the size also? |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
i don't think it does |
| 18:39 |
Krock |
size comparison would be another simple assertion anyway |
| 18:39 |
celeron55 |
it's easier to justify making collections of essentially random utility functions in a solo project than a team project |
| 18:40 |
celeron55 |
and easier to do it to begin with as you remember what there already is and isn't |
| 18:40 |
celeron55 |
not that you actually need any for that |
| 18:40 |
rubenwardy |
I think good util functions is vital when it comes to bigger projects |
| 18:41 |
rubenwardy |
context: I'm adding str_split_trim and Settings.getList so that I can read comma separated settings easier |
| 18:41 |
Krock |
^ LGTM |
| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
i think the rule would be, add anything you need as long as you also add a unit test for it and if you need lots of header dependencies try not to add them to a header everything else uses |
| 18:43 |
Zughy[m] |
Krock: should I reschedule it at 18:00 UTC+0 rather than 19:00? |
| 18:44 |
Krock |
well, it's up to Hugues and x2048 who IIRC would like to have it not much earlier |
| 18:45 |
Krock |
HuguesRoss, @x2048 what would you think about moving the meeting time 1 hour earlier, i.e. 18:00 UTC? |
| 18:46 |
HuguesRoss |
No opinion |
| 18:46 |
HuguesRoss |
19:00 is ~3PM for me, so as long as long as it's after 17:00 I don't really mind |
| 18:50 |
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| 19:08 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> I don't mind either |
| 19:09 |
Zughy[m] |
I'll edit then |
| 19:25 |
Zughy[m] |
celeron55: I think some updates broke the wiki theme, see all the `<source>` syntax all around the place https://dev.minetest.net/minetest.get_craft_result |
| 19:25 |
Zughy[m] |
*all over |
| 19:26 |
celeron55 |
yeah i managed to set up the same extensions but for some reason they just don't work the same anymore |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
that's what 10 years of updates does to mediawiki |
| 19:33 |
rubenwardy |
merging #12703 in 10 |
| 19:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12703 -- [NoSquash] ContentDB: Fix crash when trying to overwrite a package by rubenwardy |
| 19:36 |
rubenwardy |
and #12693 |
| 19:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12693 -- Apply DPI Scaling to GUIModalMenu by ElliottLester |
| 19:43 |
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| 20:05 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: 10 what? hours? |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
years obviously |
| 20:13 |
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| 20:20 |
rubenwardy |
haha typically. I realised I hadn't ate so went to make food |
| 20:33 |
Zughy[m] |
these are all the methods imho worth keeping: https://dev.minetest.net/Category:Methods appguru if it might help you for the other docs |
| 20:39 |
rubenwardy |
the dev wiki language selector has broken |
| 20:42 |
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| 20:44 |
Zughy[m] |
I think this page is kind of useless: https://dev.minetest.net/How_to_communicate |
| 20:48 |
rubenwardy |
I think tht's IRC legacy |
| 20:48 |
rubenwardy |
but we have https://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules |
| 20:49 |
rubenwardy |
I agree with deleting that |
| 20:50 |
Zughy[m] |
done |
| 21:47 |
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