Time Nick Message 00:01 MTDiscord basically string interpolation 00:01 schwarzwald[m] I should really find something useful to PR, but I've had trouble getting the confidence or the time. 00:02 Zughy[m] well, there are a lot of bugs ? 00:02 MTDiscord See if theres any smaller bug issues 00:03 Zughy[m] #10037 is very annoying, for instance 00:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10037 -- Physics override not working properly when speed is set to 0 while moving 00:03 schwarzwald[m] The dunning-kruger effect must not work on me because I know I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing and then do it wrong anyway. ?️ 00:05 Zughy[m] and I guess #12403 is easier 00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12403 -- `is_visible = false` doesn't work on players 00:05 Zughy[m] (yes, I'm pushing my reports) 00:05 MTDiscord whats your opinion on the element syntax above, zughy 00:06 MTDiscord and should I bother using something like it for the main menu 00:07 Zughy[m] can't really say, I'm a simple mind, I see a formspec, I want to cry 00:07 MTDiscord thats fair 00:07 MTDiscord Speaking of though, how would a "better" GUI system even work 00:07 MTDiscord the string based system structure-wise isnt awful 00:08 MTDiscord the only other established systems are usually tag-based ([ht,x]ml) 00:10 MTDiscord meh, pointless exercise for now. Ill get back to main menuing. 00:13 schwarzwald[m] > I see a formspec, I want to cry 00:13 schwarzwald[m] Zughy might've accidentally hinted at one possible solution. It's not necessary for modders to ever manually write formspecs. They could be in a binary format for that matter, although I think there's a lot of value in them being human readable. They could be generated using tooling and stored in their own file format. 00:14 schwarzwald[m] Even the existing formspec language could be used that way, and nobody would ever have to look at formspec code again. But if the tooling stops being maintained, nothing is lost, as the format is simple to modify by hand if necessary, or write new tooling for. 00:17 Zughy[m] related: #6527 00:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6527 -- Formspec replacement 09:40 MTDiscord I had considered this too but ultimately rejected it. I went with S-expressions instead: {"label", {1,2}; "foo bar"} 11:18 MTDiscord Of course, what we need for a formspec replacement is yet another bespoke syntax instead of something like JSON or Lua that we already have serializers for. 12:07 kilbith https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16M3PJu1zfw 12:07 kilbith Camera API (WIP) 12:07 kilbith this is a static camera, not the traditional CameraFPS with mouse events 12:24 kilbith I'm tempted to make a lower level API to draw on-screen, without going through the HUD and the GUI; it could be something like: camera:draw(x, y, w, h) 12:25 kilbith right on the screen, everything in pixels 12:25 kilbith opinions? 13:01 kilbith nobody cares? 13:16 Zughy[m] I do, the whole camera system is cool, but I don't have enough knowledge to answer the HUD thing 13:17 Zughy[m] the Lua implementation seems clean though 13:22 rubenwardy v-rob was woking on such a thing, as a client-side API 13:22 rubenwardy a server-side API would be too slow for real time things, it would end up just being a way to make dynamic images to send 13:25 kilbith uh no, there are no dynamic images involved 13:26 kilbith each camera is drawn inside their respective viewport 13:26 kilbith so it's realtime rendering of the scene 13:27 kilbith besides, there's already a client-side camera API which is half-baked 14:03 MTDiscord So this would be good for cut scenes? What other usecases? 14:10 kilbith that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGZHYut1gik 14:11 kilbith camera:get_camera_texture() inside entity def 15:28 rubenwardy reviewed and fixed #7865 could use another look 15:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7865 -- Add crosshair support for Android by srifqi 15:28 rubenwardy s/could use/needs/ 15:38 MTDiscord kilbith: so it could allow overlays and holograms? Yeah, id say theres interest 15:40 MTDiscord In your code in the video, I don't see a reference to the player object. So how does it control just 1 player's camera? Or, maybe I'm still not understanding what it does :| 15:41 kilbith > so it could allow overlays and holograms? Yeah, id say theres interest 15:42 kilbith no, it means that a scene can be rendered in real-time onto an entity 15:42 kilbith > So how does it control just 1 player's camera? 15:43 MTDiscord Oh! So, real time portals? Non-euclidean spaces? Mirrors? Star field end portals? 15:43 kilbith you can add a new camera object with Camera(), it's not tied to an ObjectRef 15:43 kilbith unless you attach() it 15:43 kilbith possibly mirrors, yes 15:43 rubenwardy Is a camera a type of Object? Would be good to reuse the movement interpolation code 15:43 rubenwardy and attachments 15:44 rubenwardy just not necessarily serialisation 15:44 MTDiscord kilbith: the blog isn't out yet. Do you want to write up a short paragraph about it? Or save it for another month? 15:45 kilbith moment 15:45 kilbith I finish a meeting 16:16 kilbith so 16:16 kilbith Camera is an independant object such as VoxelManip or ItemStack 16:17 kilbith you can create it at init time or whatever 16:18 kilbith you can create as much cameras as you want 16:19 kilbith MisterE[m]: what are your expectations for the blog? 16:19 kilbith a technical in-depth explanation? the use-cases? 16:20 MTDiscord Conversational tone, an intro for general consumption that describes progress. Semi formal 16:20 MTDiscord A screenshot would be great if appropriate 16:20 Pexin can each camera exist in a separate coordinate space? so they dont see the same geometry? 16:20 MTDiscord Make an issue against the blog 16:20 kilbith I'll make a video instead 16:21 MTDiscord That will be grent 16:21 MTDiscord *great 16:21 kilbith Pexin: examples? 16:21 Pexin lots. but simple ones? ...uhh 16:22 kilbith I intend to make the Camera coords system 1:1 with world coords 16:22 Pexin well basically so you dont need to carce out a region 16:22 Pexin carve 16:24 MTDiscord How long do you think the blog submission would take you? More than two days we cant wait for but if its before that we can make that work. Ideally by the end of today though. Otherwise it can go into next month's post. 16:25 MTDiscord as for details, if you think that the average person interested in minetest development would be interested, you can put it in. 16:28 rubenwardy technically it's July already, so wouldn't be incorrect in next month's post :D 16:29 erle is it already merged? 16:29 erle i think teasing features should only happen if the users have some easy way to experience them (i.e. compile git HEAD) 16:30 kilbith MisterE[m]: can it be tomorrow? 16:30 MisterE[m] erle: No, the blog is for letting people know what devs are working on. 16:30 erle ah i see 16:30 erle i thought it was a “what's new” thing 16:30 MisterE[m] kilbith: We can try for that kilbith 16:30 MisterE[m] erle: That too erle 16:30 MisterE[m] It just has to be described as what it is 16:32 rubenwardy I'm hesistant to put super immature stuff there if it's still a long time away 16:33 erle hmm, hmmm, maybe i can get cora to write something about how to place structures very fast (the trick is to make the minetest engine place decorations for you that unpack into buildings later, but i think she figured out a bit more about what is slow and what is fast) 16:33 MisterE[m] erle: Ruben and I were discussing having special how-to articles. That would do nicely. 16:34 rubenwardy content marketing 16:34 erle well it is also help for using the engine. most structure placement code in mods is garbage in one way or the other. 16:34 MTDiscord Write it, submit it as a PR or an issue, and we will review and post. 16:35 erle sometimes the engine is at fault (it still can't place giant schematics IIRC), sometimes people make mapgen with a code flow that reminds me of spaghet 16:35 MTDiscord erle: TBH that belongs on the minetest_doc project rather than a "blog" 16:35 erle i'd rather say it could go into the rubenwardy book maybe? 16:35 rubenwardy detailed modding tutorials like that owuld be better on minetest_doc, yeah 16:35 rubenwardy or my book 16:35 MTDiscord Depends how its written? 16:36 erle anyways, the blog surely could link to new book chapters 16:36 rubenwardy the blog should be fairly high level rather than technical info 16:36 rubenwardy ooh, could add the new book chapter to the blog post 16:36 rubenwardy https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/quality/translations.html 16:37 kilbith rubenwardy: the PostProcessing thing by x2048 is a super immature as well, yet mentionned in the blog 16:37 kilbith -a 16:37 MTDiscord As is jordach's mapgen 16:37 rubenwardy true. That has a lot of political buy in 16:38 rubenwardy Jordach's map gen probably shouldn't have been in the blog post, would be lucky to ever see that :D 16:38 kilbith btw that feature will be financially backed by new company I work in 16:38 rubenwardy cameras or post processing? 16:38 kilbith thats why I have time to develop it 16:38 kilbith cameras 16:39 MTDiscord rubenwardy: found a typo "player’s lang,uage" 16:39 rubenwardy thanks 16:39 MTDiscord Jordach's mapgen can be used today tho, if you build a server form source. 16:40 MTDiscord MisterE: You could feature my revival of the bone override PR I guess 16:40 MTDiscord #12388 16:40 MTDiscord I think, that as long as very WIP features are known to be so, they should go in the blog. Maybe with lower priority than more likely to be merged soon feature 16:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12388 -- Extend bone override capabilities by appgurueu 16:41 MTDiscord Like most PRs, it is in ready for review limbo 16:41 rubenwardy sure 16:41 rubenwardy sure @MisterE 16:41 rubenwardy Well, the average PR open time is plumetting recently at least 16:41 rubenwardy *cough* #7865 *cough* 16:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7865 -- Add crosshair support for Android by srifqi 16:42 MisterE[m] Something of the form ”kilbith is working on a PR that implements ...” 16:42 rubenwardy The camera PR is on the roadmap at least, and is pretty awesome 16:42 MTDiscord in terms of likeliness to be merged, #12353 has been discussed during the last meeting, but I don't think fixing physics makes for an exciting blog post ? 16:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12353 -- Fix acceleration by appgurueu 16:42 rubenwardy so as long as the tech works out it doesn't seem unlikely 16:43 MisterE[m] To point is to generate interest in development, and inform everyone of what others are working on, so they know to follow the development. 16:43 kilbith OpenMW is doing that 16:43 kilbith 0 A.D. as well 16:43 MisterE[m] Doing what? 16:44 kilbith blog marketing 16:44 MisterE[m] Yeah. I specifically got the idea from Veloren 16:44 erle i actually think the physics thing is a decent thing for a blog post 16:44 erle you should probably ask fleck if it started in physics class lol 16:45 MisterE[m] Well, people, you have 1.5 days or so to make submissions for this month's post 16:45 erle given he was still in school when he noticed it was wrong 16:45 MisterE[m] https://github.com/minetest/blog/issues 16:45 MisterE[m] submit them there 16:48 rubenwardy I've wanted a blog for years but didn't want to be the main person to do it, that's how it never gets updated regularly *looks at the twitter* 16:49 rubenwardy Content marketting is a bit different than a blog with monthly/weekly updates. The idea behind content marketting is to appear more in search results 16:50 rubenwardy for example, we could make an article about how to get started with making a game in Minetest, and then it could become a top result when someone searches "how to make voxel game" or whatever 16:52 erle given the state of google i would not count on it 16:53 Pexin seo is infernal black magic 16:53 rubenwardy The monthly blog posts are great for communication with users though, it allows them to know we're doing stuff without crawling through github 16:53 erle i noticed that for some software i wrote its homepage is not even on the first page of search results – however, the first search results *link* to that page. so clearly, google is using something other than page rank and serving something else than useful results in this case. 16:53 erle that is true 16:54 kilbith there's need to focus on marketing this summer at least, after what happened to MC 16:54 erle what happened to MC? 16:55 erle i maintain that marketing in the sense of generating hype is bullshit, while marketing in the sense of providing useful information is not. 16:55 kilbith https://www.reddit.com/r/Minetest/comments/vjqxwz/with_microsofts_latest_decision_to_police_chat_on/ 16:55 MisterE[m] they implemented global chat monitering, even on anarchy servers, not sure about singleplayer. They if you say something they dont like, they can permaban you 16:56 MisterE[m] spelling go brr 16:56 erle LOL 16:56 erle knowing microsoft, i bet if you are banned you can't even play on your private server or something 16:56 MisterE[m] Minecraft is now a "safe Space" 16:57 MisterE[m] e.g. no Freedom of speech 16:58 MisterE[m] erle: this is correct IIUC 16:58 ROllerozxa "i bet if you are banned you can't even play on your private server or something" yep, pretty much. no ability to play on multiplayer servers that rely on the mojang authentication servers 16:58 schwarzwald[m] May I have permission to triage at least some parts of the Coverity report? The bugs I've been PRing fixes to haven't been marked yet. 16:58 erle hilarious, but it has nothing to do with minetest, except for minetest being excactly unlike it 16:59 erle schwarzwald[m] why do you need permission? 17:01 schwarzwald[m] erle: Because I can't triage the report without permission. 17:03 schwarzwald[m] Maybe only admins can triage it? I would hope there's a non-admin role that can triage but not upload builds. 21:27 Zughy[m] Friendly reminder that if anyone wants to help with confirming bugs, there are still 16 of them that need confirmation 21:27 Zughy[m] https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Unconfirmed+bug%22+-label%3A%22Action+%2F+change+needed%22+-label%3A%22Possible+close%22+-label%3AAndroid+-label%3AmacOS 21:35 erle #11829 is very easy to confirm. i have put the repro instructions in the issue. 21:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11829 -- Client hangs on startup if too many texture modifiers are used in a game or mod 21:37 erle #11532 is part of some parcour courses and player builds 21:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11532 -- Similar to sneak glitch, with different block configuration 21:38 erle as is #11171 btw 21:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11171 -- New move sneak glitches through blocks despite sneak_glitch = false 21:39 celeron55 it almost seems like we should add more glitches to the movement code, not remove them 21:40 erle well, in both cases, i definitely don't think it's worth it to remove them – the way you have to set up the nodes is very specific and i have only ever seen it made deliberately as part of a parcour or hidden base 21:41 erle i.e. “sneakjump in the corner in the basement to get to the secret room” 21:41 erle walking on the side of walls is stupid though 21:45 rubenwardy celeron55: that is what the code wants to do, after all 22:05 MTDiscord Will we ever have SSCSM 22:05 MTDiscord I know this topic has been discussed since well... forever 22:09 MTDiscord But will it even happen? 22:10 MTDiscord We could just make it a completely benign system 22:10 MTDiscord Hell, you could make your own custom language for it 22:10 MTDiscord Lua imitation meat 22:14 MTDiscord Making a new programming is an entire seperate beast. Not exactly an option anyone's want to take. 22:16 MTDiscord Well if we're concerned about security 22:16 MTDiscord And apparently just neutering lua is somehow "just not secure enough" 22:18 MTDiscord It really couldnt be that hard to gaurentee a secure enviorment 22:18 MTDiscord We have 90% of the framework involved in this, we could even use open source libraries or hell, even reintegrate hacked clients into the API 22:21 MTDiscord I mean its possible to clear the enviorment in lua, so why cant we just do that, and explicitly add safe functions 22:21 MTDiscord We can also do this within the client's API itself that way we can guarantee safety without risking hacks 22:34 erle FatalError what do you want to use CSM for that would not be solved by “make a better CSM interface in the main menu and host them on CDB” ? 22:34 erle (i am collecting use cases) 22:36 Pexin < celeron55> it almost seems like we should add more glitches to the movement code, not remove them 22:36 Pexin don't you worry, I have plans 23:29 MTDiscord this is one of the hardest problems. this is why it pretty much only happens in browsers, which are backed by big companies with deep pockets 23:32 MTDiscord the attack surface is huge: Miscompiles (if LuaJIT is used), buffer overruns (in the API), hardware-level attacks (row hammer, etc), side-channel attacks (e.g. spectre), etc 23:33 MTDiscord browsers have multiple levels of sand-boxing, and they are still regularly exploited 23:49 erle paradust and yet, there are parts of browsers that are not exploited regularly, the ones that use tested and proven strategies. 23:49 MTDiscord But you cant simply override the clientside environment, adding dangerous gunctions would quite literally be impossible with a clear environment, with only benine functions implemented 23:50 erle (which broadly means following LANGSEC principles, and TBL's ”principle of least power”) 23:51 erle FatalError i think it helps much more if you present a use-case. lukyx for example, wanted forms that react instantly, without lag. that is a very clear use case (and one where i would argue that browsers have shown you do not need a full-fledged scripting environment). 23:52 MTDiscord Set velocity and position without delay 23:53 MTDiscord Render objects only visible on clientside 23:53 erle lag-free velocity and position seems like a movement prediction issue, i fail to see where you need scripting there. 23:53 erle minetest already has predictive hints AFAIK 23:53 MTDiscord Its absolutely nessecary 23:53 erle elaborate please 23:53 MTDiscord Set_pos is dirt useless 90% of the time 23:54 MTDiscord Because lag will cause the player to snap back 23:54 MTDiscord Get_pos doesnt give accurate results 23:54 erle oh, i see. that seems like a different issue than what i thought. 23:55 erle how exactly are you using set_pos that lag makes it weird? 23:55 erle are you setting the position several times per second or so? 23:55 MTDiscord Delay breaks shit, it always does. Same issue with hud, if I want to update a hud waypoint without delay, i fucking cant 23:55 MTDiscord Itll look like shit 23:55 MTDiscord The use cases are basically endless 23:55 erle i have made the xmaps mod, so i am aware of the difficulties 23:56 erle FatalError do you have a test case for the set pos thing? are you *sure* it is not anticheat related? 23:57 MTDiscord Literally nothing to do with anticheat 23:57 erle i have had snap-backs, but since the whole physics thing i assume it is a difference in server and client prediction 23:57 MTDiscord Its not 23:57 erle like, going in a minecart in a straight line, getting snapped 23:57 MTDiscord Not what im talking about 23:58 erle okay, so how do you use set_pos? 23:58 MTDiscord I dont because itll break everything 23:58 erle okay how do you *want* to use it? 23:58 erle like what's the use case? 23:58 MTDiscord sscsm is useful for nice clientside prediction of things or making interactions less laggy, etc. at the end of the day you should always trust/verify things on the server side 23:58 erle if you want to set the player position each frame, DO NOT DO THIS 23:59 MTDiscord OH WOW REALLY? 23:59 MTDiscord You mean I cant use setpos where I want to? 23:59 MTDiscord Because itll break? 23:59 MTDiscord Because of delay? 23:59 MTDiscord CRAZY ALMOST LIKE I WAS SAYING THAT 23:59 MTDiscord ANWAY 23:59 erle i am saying a different thing