Time  Nick        Message
03:30 MTDiscord   <MisterE> sfan5, in 5.6, a fairly recent build, there is an issue with mesh nodes. Im not sure of the details, but when I play wormball on a minigames server, the food nodes look like half node-sized spheres.  when I play on 5.6, tho, the food nodes are tiny, about 1/16 of a node
03:32 erle        MisterE can you narrow this down using devtest?
03:34 erle        MisterE in mods/testnodes/meshes.lua in devtest there are a bunch of nodes you could try to figure out more, starting with testnodes:mesh testnodes:mesh_double testnodes:mesh_half
03:36 erle        they all use the testnodes_pyramid.obj – once without visual_scale (which i assume being the same as setting it to 1), once with it set to 2, once with it set to 0.5
03:37 erle        MisterE so i suggest to spawn these three in both a working version and a non-working one and report back
07:53 x2048       Merging #11696 soon unless anyone has objections
07:53 ShadowBot   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11696 -- Depth sorting for node faces by x2048
07:56 x2048       Merging https://gist.github.com/x2048/0ec1912f03a2c13553d8513e357a0091 soon. Aligns shadow boundary with fog boundary.
10:45 sfan5       @MisterE make sure to open an issue so it isn't forgotten
10:45 erle        x2048 i applaud that you made the setting for fps drops adjustable
10:47 erle        x2048 could you tell me where the idea comes from that fps drops are “edge cases”? as far as i have seen, griefers go to great lengths to actually trigger whatever makes clients lags all the time. the “do not render particles” option in waspsaliva is a direct consequence of particle performance being bad. are developers seeing attackers as “edge cases” in general?
10:48 sfan5       intentionally provoking worst case behaviour is an edge case yes
10:49 erle        ah, so it is the edge of theoretical possibility space, not if it happens often in real life. thanks!
11:43 MTDiscord   <luatic> "real life" != anarchy though
11:44 MTDiscord   <luatic> anarchy is an edge case of real life :D
12:37 erle        luatic are you aware that the assclown brigade is attacking servers that are not anarchy servers though?
13:07 x2048       erle: not that I have explored a lot of servers, but transparent nodes in general have been used rarely on the servers, and I have only seen a couple of places which used multilayered semitransparent structures
13:08 x2048       it is also not part of default experience in any known game in minetest
13:08 erle        x2048 glass?
13:08 x2048       but transparent I mean semitransparent nodes, 0 < alpha < 255
13:08 erle        i mean sfan5 answered it already, something can be incredibly common in real life and still an edge case since it's a very small part of the possible configurations
13:09 x2048       *by
13:09 erle        uh, wait, is glass a semitransparent node or not?
13:09 erle        water is, but lots of water columns are usually the kind of things that griefers make ;)
13:11 x2048       yes, but water is just one material, and is not the worst offender
13:11 x2048       majority of the performance loss is due to GPU pipeline being flushed by frequent material change
13:12 x2048       and the worst case is a multilayered multi-textured transparent texture, like a colored glass statue
13:12 x2048       *transparent structure, not texture of course
13:14 x2048       and I would consider edge cases in relation to an average gameplay, not real life
13:15 x2048       default glass is not semitransparent and is not affected by my changes, colored stained glass is.
13:16 x2048       non-colored 'frosted' glass is also affected
13:17 x2048       as for the griefers, this is a usual tactic for any adversary to use a known (or better uknown) edge case behavior to their advantage. Which does not change the meaning of 'edge case', but also means that they must not be totally ignored
13:18 x2048       That's why I added sorting range parameter and made it a low value by default
13:18 erle        yes, that was a good choice
13:18 erle        for my own software i always try to get the “best worst case”, but a lot of people optimize for the “best case”
13:19 erle        x2048 the main thing i feared was that it might open up another avenue for lagging clients – but if it is easy to turn it off, that's not a problem
13:20 erle        or turn it down
13:21 erle        x2048 am i correct in assuming that order-independent transparency or whatever it is called will have no such issues?
13:34 x2048       yes, but it will bring a different set of challenges :)
13:39 x2048       like higher hardware requirements with more textures and non-trivial per-fragment GPU code
13:40 x2048       which brings us further away from the fixed pipeline and potato GPUs
13:54 MTDiscord   <luatic> x2048: that's because it wasn't fixed up until now; you can expect usage to go up now that you've fixed the rendering
14:12 Pexin       x2048: if you think people dont like to build with stained glass / frosted glass, you must only be on some quite basic servers. i see them constantly.
14:16 rubenwardy  the fact that people build with that a lot is why it needed to be fixed
14:21 Pexin       it is my impression that formerly only the closest semitransparent surface was rendered, and all behind it was invisible, but someone considered that a bug. is this currently (or can it become) an available user setting?
14:24 MTDiscord   <Jonathon> That assumption is incorrect
14:25 MTDiscord   <Jonathon> Having multiple glass layers would render/glitch different depending on the cameras view angle
15:09 MTDiscord   <luatic> ^
15:09 MTDiscord   <luatic> literally anything could happen
15:09 MTDiscord   <luatic> but some settings for special blend modes might indeed be useful
16:02 sfan5       question for Lua experts: can normal code mess with the metatables of userdata?
16:06 Desour      in general yes. if the metatable has the __metatable field set and you don't have any other access to the metatable (ie. via debug.getmetatable), then no
16:06 MTDiscord   <Warr1024> Not 100% sure what you mean without maybe some example code, but I think yes, and some mods/games rely on this.
16:06 Desour      (according to lua reference=
16:06 Desour      )*
16:06 MTDiscord   <exe_virus> That moment when you realize you aren't a lua expert
16:08 Desour      in minetest: until #12118 is merged, yes
16:08 ShadowBot   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12118 -- Make `debug.g/setmetatable` respect the `"__metatable_debug"` metatable field by Desour
16:10 MTDiscord   <Warr1024> That just prevents weird metatable hacking shenanigans and stuff, but doesn't change the ability to modify userdata prototypes' methods, right?
16:11 MTDiscord   <Warr1024> So like if I want to override inventory:add_item() that shouldn't be affected
16:15 Desour      if you want to do inventory.add_item = <some function>, you'd use the __newindex meta field, which is nil, so it's an error
16:16 Desour      (and you couldn't modify the function env either because it's a C function and you don't have debug.g/setfenv)
16:17 Desour      oh, but I'm seeing right now, that __index and __metatable use the same table, so you can do getmetatable(inv).add_item = ...
16:18 Desour      which is not affected by the PR
16:23 wsor        bit, late, but sfan5: https://gitlab.com/luk3yx/minetest-fs51/-/blob/main/monkey_patching.lua#L149-166 example in the wild
16:27 wsor        so Desour, if i understand correctly, your PR would deny the ability of mods to override player metatables? if so, thats will break mods, and additionally is counter intuitive since overriding minetest api functions is eve recommended in lua api for some things
16:27 wsor        s/eve/even
16:28 sfan5       the api only recommends overriding global functions, nothing metatable related
16:28 Desour      wsor: it would not break your example. it only breaks code that uses debug.g/setmatable on minetest's userdata objects
16:29 wsor        Desour: thank you for the clarification
16:29 Desour      (as said before, "getmetatable(inv).add_item = ..." is not affected)
16:30 rubenwardy  Surely it would make more sense just to remove debug.set/getmetatable
16:30 sfan5       it would be more secure but also break e.g. mesecons sandbox
16:30 rubenwardy  ~mod mesecons
16:30 ShadowBot   rubenwardy: <lucky [mod] mesecons site:forum.minetest.net>
16:30 rubenwardy  _sigh_
16:31 MTDiscord   <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest-mods/mesecons
16:31 rubenwardy  Mesecons uses getmetatable, not debug.getmetatable
16:32 MTDiscord   <Jonathon> seems mesecons only uses getmetatable, not debug.getmetatable
16:42 rubenwardy  I'm currently grepping ContentDB. One match is modpol/modpol_core/util/serpent/serpent.lua:local getmetatable = debug and debug.getmetatable or getmetatable
16:43 Desour      if debug.getmetatable evaluates to nil, that will default to getmetatable
16:43 rubenwardy  yeah, so that's fine
16:54 sfan5       rubenwardy: how does it set the string metatable then?
16:54 sfan5       I thought only debug.getmetatable allowed that
16:55 debiankaios upps
16:55 debiankaios joined wrong
16:55 MTDiscord   <Jonathon> sfan5: https://github.com/minetest-mods/mesecons/blob/master/mesecons_luacontroller/init.lua#L637-L642
16:55 MTDiscord   <Jonathon> additionally https://github.com/minetest-mods/mesecons/blob/master/mesecons_luacontroller/init.lua#L203-L209
16:56 Desour      strings' metatable has no __metatable field, so getmetatable works normally. only setmetatable does only work on tables
17:09 rubenwardy  no more matches of debug.[sg]etmetatable found
17:10 rubenwardy  so it's safe to remove
17:10 rubenwardy  from CDB's perspective anyway
17:14 Desour      then removing makes more sense, for simplicity
17:44 MTDiscord   <luatic> Please don't remove the two funcs! They allow insane levels of haxxory.
17:45 MTDiscord   <luatic> Such as defining new operators for primitive types like numbers or funcs
17:45 MTDiscord   <luatic> (funcs aren't primitive, but share one metatable)
17:45 MTDiscord   <luatic> it literally allows implementing function-based classes without table overhead
18:09 Desour      luatic: what are function-based classes?
18:28 Zughy[m]    could any core dev please investigate #12092 when they're free? I made it as specific as possible and I can't pull workarounds to fix that, or you won't able to test (in locale it basically never happens)
18:28 ShadowBot   https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12092 -- Calling set_detach() + set_properties() + set_pos() on the same step fails to teleport the player half of the time, especially online
18:47 MTDiscord   <savgirluwu> Zughy: Are you sure it happens with 5.4 server as well? I've encountered the similar issue but only after the server was updated to 5.5.
19:16 rubenwardy  !title https://content.minetest.net/zipgrep/26b05bca-c5ce-475f-ad72-871b6cceb8b6/
19:16 ShadowBot   rubenwardy: 'debug.[gs]etmetatable' - Search Package Releases - ContentDB
19:17 rubenwardy  (Added a tool to regex search all packages, currently locked to admin rank as it's expensive and potentially not very secure)
20:05 Zughy[m]    <MTDiscord> "<savgirluwu> Zughy: Are you sure..." <- yes I'm sure, we've been having that problem since we added the spectate mode, a thing we did in.. 5.3 if I stand correctly
21:02 x2048       Pexin: there's now a client-side setting that limits depth sorting: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/settingtypes.txt#L863
21:02 x2048       If you set it to 0, you effectively disable depth sorting
21:21 MTDiscord   <luatic> Desour: basically closures (instance variables stored in upvalues), except you can implement all the syntactic sugar if you can change the func metatable