Time Nick Message 06:22 erlehmann I don't think that should be in builtin or MTG too. arbitrary code execution is a big deal. 07:02 erlehmann and if you put it in, i'll try to talk debian into removing it 07:02 erlehmann (and every other distribution too) 07:02 erlehmann unless it's properly secured 08:07 MTDiscord we need secured communication channels in Minetest 08:08 MTDiscord I understand that some commands have to be sent over UDP to be as fast as possible. Still, encryption isn't that resource-intensive. And even then, it could be implemented only for chat messages (which includes chat commands). 08:12 luk3yx Agreed 08:12 erlehmann i think everyone agrees here. 08:12 erlehmann chat should not be snooped anyway 08:14 erlehmann i think the problem is not that there are evil people whose evil plan is to read every chat message and exploit every device. the problem is that the people who have that as their goal think they are good people and it is their utopian vision to do that. 08:15 erlehmann they must be resisted everywhere, even in games. 08:23 erlehmann luk3yx luatic tangentially related, have you looked into the e2e chat CSMs? what do you think of them? waspsaliva has one. 08:24 luk3yx I haven't looked into existing ones 08:24 erlehmann i think there should be one in builtin, so that server operators can not listen in to private conversations 08:24 erlehmann or they can be leaked by accident 08:24 luk3yx Sounds complicated 08:24 erlehmann i have helped server operators debug things and accidentally gotten chatlogs before 08:24 erlehmann it would be good to remove this entire class of bugs 08:25 luk3yx And would also hamper moderation (I kind of feel bad for making this argument but this is a game server), more moderation tools would need to be added (such as blocking players and being able to verify that a bad player said a bad message) 08:26 erlehmann oh no, we can't give encryption to the kids! they might insult each other in secret! 08:26 erlehmann tbh i think all griefers and harassers i have met have done this in public chat 08:28 erlehmann (i believe it is more fun for them to flaunt it) 08:28 luk3yx I think it'd be easier to just use existing end-to-end encrypted chat platforms 08:28 erlehmann regardless, this is a topic for an issue 08:29 erlehmann (as chat can rehash the arguments endlessly) 08:29 erlehmann luk3yx there is still the transition to that. i have made friends on servers and the server operators got at least one of our xmpp accounts ig. 08:30 MTDiscord Just encrypt all chat messages 08:30 MTDiscord Solely for traffic, the server still decrypts the message on it's end 08:30 luk3yx What's stopping the server from MiTMing the end-to-end messages and giving both clients its own keys? 08:30 MTDiscord So on_chat_message etc. still work just fine (whereas hacks like waspsalivas e2e CSM presumably break theser) 08:31 MTDiscord luk3yx: I presume some other source of trusted authority is established beforehand, or a key exchange happens beforehand 08:31 erlehmann i like how mumble does it: it automatically adds a pub/priv keypair to your account. if you add a friend, behind the scenes it adds that persons pubkey. so you have cross-server identification if you want to. 08:31 MTDiscord Going to open an issue now 08:32 erlehmann it would be hard to get this into minetest, but it is a proven UX (many people do not even know that mumble does it) 08:32 erlehmann and cross-server identification is a thing 08:32 erlehmann i have seen people take nicknames on other servers to trick people into giving them things 08:32 luk3yx Isn't there already an issue for encrypting network traffic 08:33 luk3yx https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10206 08:33 erlehmann “hey you know me from server so and so, can you give me some diamonds / tell me your base coordinates / come here” 08:34 erlehmann emojigit does not understand SRP i guess 08:34 erlehmann judging from the issue 08:34 erlehmann or did not 08:34 erlehmann (when opening it) 08:39 erlehmann fur future readers: the TLS-equivalent for UDP connections is called DTLS 08:39 erlehmann https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datagram_Transport_Layer_Security 08:40 erlehmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datagram_Transport_Layer_Security 08:41 erlehmann > The DTLS protocol datagram preserves the semantics of the underlying transport—the application does not suffer from the delays associated with stream protocols, but because it uses UDP or SCTP, the application has to deal with packet reordering, loss of datagram and data larger than the size of a datagram network packet. 11:49 sfan5 @luatic regardless of securing it I don't think it should be in mtg or builtin 16:32 MTDiscord fine, but please still secure chat to make mods that do implement this (such as WE) less exploitable 17:02 proller https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11843 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11910 17:58 MTDiscord Is the second part ready for revie? 17:58 MTDiscord review* 20:57 MTDiscord I really hope this gets done 20:58 MTDiscord Thank you proller