Time Nick Message 00:08 HuguesRoss sfan5: Regarding #12011. Despite my title I'd trying not to involve myself much in design / management discussions for the engine. With that said, yeah it may be better to nuke. I don't think the argument about new games holds much water, because it only really applies to multiplayer games that were developed since this PR *and* haven't launched 00:08 HuguesRoss yet (as far as I understand this code is client-side, the server couldn't have blocked older clients from seeing coordinates) 00:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12011 -- Grant `basic_debug` privilege by default 00:08 HuguesRoss ...in which case, is there harm? 00:08 sfan5 harm in nuking it? don't think so 00:09 HuguesRoss then I'd say we may as well, and re-implement differently for the next release 00:10 Wuzzy is there a point that there is a "Page X of Y" in the MTG book read interface? 00:10 sfan5 so you know the page number? 00:10 Wuzzy To me, it's always 1 page no matter how long the text 00:10 sfan5 oh 00:10 sfan5 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 00:10 Wuzzy and the single page shows the whole text ? 00:10 Wuzzy it works its just weird 00:11 MTDiscord probably related to the fact you cant limit a text input field? 00:11 MTDiscord idk 00:11 Wuzzy it seems pointless to show page number if its always 1 page ? 00:12 MTDiscord it is mtg after all, is it supposed to make sense? 00:12 MTDiscord anyways, seems a simple fix to remove the line from the formspec? 00:13 Wuzzy oh wait 00:13 Wuzzy it seems its based on linebreaks 00:13 Wuzzy when I enter a text with linebreaks, it does pagebreaks as well 00:13 Wuzzy my test text had no linebreaks ... ? 00:13 Wuzzy nvm then 00:24 Wuzzy strange. is it normal that going to bed in singleplayer no longer skips night? 00:24 MTDiscord have you enabled bed night skip in your settings? 00:24 Wuzzy nvm. wrong setting 00:25 sfan5 bed night skip is the default 00:25 sfan5 and works here 00:27 MTDiscord erlehmann: I'm starting to doubt that "awaiting" using coroutines is possible in this case 00:28 MTDiscord You basically have to block the main thread until MT calls the callback on the main thread... which makes it impossible for MT to call the callback in the first place... 00:28 Wuzzy yes sorry it was my fault 00:30 sfan5 @luatic coroutines do not actually block 00:30 sfan5 consider this code which works https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/games/devtest/mods/unittests/init.lua#L133-L134 00:33 sfan5 but you are correct that you cannot use this to influence the behaviour of "external" functions 00:33 sfan5 so patching the thing we've been discussing in that fashion is not possible 01:57 HuguesRoss Anyone happen to know the setting or engine modif needed to make the final mapchunk border of the map visible? I don't happen to know that one, would help with testing #11866 01:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11866 -- Raise max mapgen limit constant to align with MapBlock by sfan5 02:05 HuguesRoss erlehmann: Just who I wanted to see, actually. I'll repeat since I don't know if you can see past messages. Do you happen to know what the necessary config is to display the mapchunk border? You allude to it in a few places, but a quick scan of the regular settings turns up nothing so I assume it's either poorly-labelled or more complicated 02:06 HuguesRoss Also, I saw some interesting behavior in your second test. There's an engine bug there, but it's not what your test claims it is. Arguably this is also a bug in the test, but it's possible you did what I'm seeing deliberately so I wouldn't necessarily call it that without knowing 02:09 erlehmann let me read the log brb 02:11 erlehmann HuguesRoss i know no easy way to make the outermost mapblock visible in a way that it helps you with the PR you are looking at. 02:11 HuguesRoss alrighty 02:12 erlehmann i think it is possible by editing the map files, but the problem is that the errors habben on *generation* time mostly. so you already need to have a mapblock. 02:12 erlehmann HuguesRoss what is the engine bug you claim? i hope it is not “nodes can be placed out of bounds” again. 02:13 HuguesRoss No, it's an s16 overflow when reading numbers >32767 02:13 erlehmann wait, there still is one? 02:13 HuguesRoss As a result, your find nodes in area call is checking like, 2.8 trillion nodes? 02:13 erlehmann i thought that was fixed 02:13 erlehmann are you *sure* you are on the newest version 02:13 HuguesRoss Not on my end 02:13 erlehmann oof 02:13 HuguesRoss I can double-check, but I'm pretty sure there is one 02:13 erlehmann wait, did you do an incremental build maybe? 02:14 HuguesRoss Maybe the branch is missing a commit? 02:14 erlehmann (incremental builds with cmake in general and minetest in particular are broken and may yield the wrong binary) 02:14 erlehmann hmmmm 02:14 HuguesRoss I'll try rebasing on master and rebuilding 02:15 erlehmann HuguesRoss the issue is that this only came up because of the fix for the call. maybe the fix does not work? 02:15 erlehmann HuguesRoss, which commit are you on? 02:15 HuguesRoss I'm on wherever in the history 11866 is at, but not for long 02:17 HuguesRoss Anyway, on my end I'm not seeing anything that would prevent an overflow in the code even after rebasing on master. Check src/util/numeric.h:288 02:19 erlehmann HuguesRoss so does my test trigger an overflow there? 02:20 erlehmann (you can verify by compiling with ubsan) 02:20 HuguesRoss yes, because one of your coords is 32770 02:20 erlehmann does that happen inside *mineclonia* though? 02:21 HuguesRoss Haven't checked, I took your test directly 02:21 HuguesRoss as linked 02:21 erlehmann oh, okay so 02:21 erlehmann in mineclonia there is actually mcl_engine_workarounds 02:21 erlehmann which contains a lua shim for minetest.find_nodes_in_area 02:21 erlehmann the test case tests if *that* thing is correct 02:21 HuguesRoss I see 02:21 erlehmann i fixed it in mineclonia before the engine fixed it (or not fixed it?) 02:22 erlehmann regardless, does this influence your decision on the PR? 02:22 erlehmann not shim, wrapper 02:22 HuguesRoss no, absolutely not. It was meant as an aside 02:22 erlehmann it calles the real minetest.find_nodes_in_area with sanitized arguments 02:22 erlehmann this is arguably very hacky, but we had a guy crash the server 02:23 HuguesRoss The first test still fails on the before and passes on the after, which I believe is what we were looking to check here 02:23 erlehmann the one that checks if the engine can “still count” i guess? 02:24 HuguesRoss Yes 02:24 HuguesRoss Also, after testing I can now confirm that your version of find_nodes_in_area works so you're all good 02:24 erlehmann nice 02:25 HuguesRoss The engine could use some more checks when getting inputs from mods though though 02:25 HuguesRoss We shouldn't allow numbers that just go out of range like that 02:26 erlehmann that is a common response to that 02:27 erlehmann there are multiple problems with that though 02:27 erlehmann for example, because of the hilarity that is int ←→ float conversion in the engine, you can actually have values that do not roundtrip cleanly 02:28 erlehmann also almost everyone insiststed on using MAX_MAP_GENERATION_LIMIT without knowing the real boundaries hehe when i last brought up the S16 boundaries 02:29 erlehmann quite a few things do actually stop at MAX_MAP_GENERATION_LIMIT btw, like biomegen 02:30 erlehmann HuguesRoss i believe that the best solution is to make the underlying functions work well without overflow. but if i understand celeron55 correctly, not checking for overflow in many cases was a deliberate design decision that i have no chance of changing without finding a dozen practical overflows. 02:31 erlehmann there is some comment about this near where MAX_MAP_GENERATION_LIMIT is defined 02:34 erlehmann HuguesRoss how are you finding overflows btw, reading code or ubsan? 02:34 HuguesRoss Neither 02:34 HuguesRoss I find them by following code execution paths in a debugger 02:36 HuguesRoss Does mineclonia's `spawn_structure` use find_nodes_in_area? Or just the mapgen spawning? 02:36 HuguesRoss I suspect it does, but I'm getting towards that time of the night where it's hard to read code 02:40 HuguesRoss Ok, looks like it doesn't but the callback after does in the case of the desert temples I've been dropping into the border 02:41 HuguesRoss good 02:42 HuguesRoss I think I'm probably satisfied with this. I could dig deeper with some engine modifs, but between the test code and the basic checks I've done manually I think this is ok to merge. 02:42 HuguesRoss I'm not doing it tonight though, not a good idea to merge code right before disappearing 02:44 erlehmann HuguesRoss the spawning structure code has callbacks that use minetest.find_nodes_in_area() 02:44 HuguesRoss yes, I was able to find it thankfully 02:44 HuguesRoss Thank you for confirming it 02:45 erlehmann i appreciate the effort you put into this stuff 02:45 HuguesRoss I try to give a level of scrutiny roughly on-par with what would be expected of me at work 02:45 erlehmann very nice 02:45 HuguesRoss Which is to say, not amazing but still reasonably thorough 02:46 erlehmann well, it's probably better than whatever happened before at that code path (if it was ever reviewed) 02:46 erlehmann because you would not have found anything if it was, i guess 02:46 HuguesRoss Usually we have specialists for this sort of testing, it's too bad we don't have any of those here lol 02:48 HuguesRoss hm, come to think of it 02:49 erlehmann HuguesRoss i believe that josiah_wi is trying to restore unit tests for irrlichtmt 02:49 erlehmann maybe you wanna take a look at that 02:50 HuguesRoss I'm no expert, but I can take a look sometime. I'll put it on The List 02:50 erlehmann beyond that, i believe that tests are, unfortunately, only acceptable right now, if they are added as regression tests. i don't really understand why, but this is, for example, why my suggestion of using sanitizers in the CI to catch bugs was not done IIRC. 02:50 erlehmann HuguesRoss could you share your debugging setup for minetest btw? 02:51 erlehmann compile options and all that 02:51 HuguesRoss I'm just running it out of the box in CLion 02:51 HuguesRoss You could probably do the same with GDB or any other IDE providing a frontend to it 02:52 HuguesRoss I'm not usually an IDE guy, but for C++ I find their debugging tools useful 02:52 HuguesRoss You can do most everything they do in the CLI, but it's more of a pain 02:52 erlehmann https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/ this one i assume? 02:52 HuguesRoss yup 02:52 HuguesRoss Costs money though, and not FOSS 02:52 erlehmann > Generate tons of boilerplate code instantly. 02:52 erlehmann oh lol 02:53 MTDiscord Clion is pretty good 02:53 erlehmann that is the most hilarious start of a marketing text for a CVE++ IDE i have seen 02:53 erlehmann like who *wouldn't* want to generate tons of boilerplate code!? 02:53 erlehmann :D 02:53 HuguesRoss I will note that CLion feels pretty sluggish. It works well, but likes to take its time doing so 02:54 HuguesRoss I tried a couple FOSS alternatives, but I found they didn't work as well sadly. I'll probably keep looking just in case though 02:54 erlehmann i have 2GB ram on the machine i am writing on, do i need to look closer on this IDE or not? 02:55 rubenwardy Clion uses lldb 02:55 HuguesRoss Definitely not, right now I think it's using 4GB 02:55 erlehmann ok thx 02:55 rubenwardy I use clion, I like intellij IDEs 02:56 HuguesRoss Until recently the only Jetbrains product I'd gotten much use out of was dotPeek 02:56 rubenwardy I use VSCode(ium) for most things though, but the C++ support isn't very good 02:58 HuguesRoss Anyway, I'm gonna go sleep probably. 02:59 HuguesRoss Only thing left, rubenwardy do you happen to know how the 2 approval rule interacts with coredev PRs? I don't remember if there's an exception or not, but we should probably get a 2nd review on #11866 either way 02:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11866 -- Raise max mapgen limit constant to align with MapBlock by sfan5 02:59 rubenwardy self approval counts 02:59 rubenwardy so as a core dev, sfan only needs on other approval 03:00 HuguesRoss Cool, in that case we're probably good then 03:00 rubenwardy however, he can wait for more than one other if he wants to exercise caution 03:00 HuguesRoss I'll ask him tomorrow then 03:00 rubenwardy you shouldn't assume self approval 03:01 HuguesRoss Alright, I think I've got it. I could've sworn this was written down somewhere, but I couldn't find it 04:03 MTDiscord HuguesRoss, have you tried vscodium with the c++ extention? 04:29 [0] The official C++ extension can't (legally) be used with the OSS builds of code, but it works with the clangd extension. You have to run cmake with -DCMAKE_EXPORT_COMPILE_COMMANDS=TRUE. You'll also have to add --compile-commands-dir=... to the clangd arguments if you're doing an out-of-source build. 10:03 Baytuch hmm.. - "Spoofing yout IP" 10:04 Baytuch Good morning 11:50 sfan5 looks like I'll prepare a PR to disable basic_debug 12:05 sfan5 it appears none of the privileges (interact, shout or the new basic_debug) are documented anywhere 12:06 sfan5 except in-game but that's not "documentation" 12:19 MTDiscord Will a simple section in lua_api.txt work for this? 12:22 sfan5 sure 12:28 Baytuch Let it be the option if necessary 12:39 sfan5 merging #11866, #12013, #12014 soon 12:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11866 -- Raise max mapgen limit constant to align with MapBlock by sfan5 12:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12013 -- Fix Minetest logo when installed system-wide. by rollerozxa 12:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12014 -- Update builtin translation by Wuzzy2 14:14 erlehmann HuguesRoss are you going to file an issue for the buffer overflow you found? or is it a known one? 14:15 HuguesRoss Well, for starters it's an integer overflow 14:15 HuguesRoss and yeah, once I'm properly awake 14:15 erlehmann sorry, i am not awake either 14:16 MTDiscord 12011 makes me sad 14:16 MTDiscord I haven't been able to come up with a way to avoid integer overflows. 14:17 erlehmann josiah_wi what do you mean? 14:17 erlehmann what is hard about avoiding them? 14:17 MTDiscord Unless you clamp values, every addition or multiplication operation is a possible overflow. 14:19 MTDiscord sfan5: mind having a quick look at game#2924 14:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2924 -- Addition for translation (uk) by baytuch 14:20 erlehmann josiah_wi you can check input values before doing a calculation to prevent overflow 14:25 erlehmann josiah_wi you can find a lot of examples like this when you look for solutions, does that make sense to you?: int safe_add(int a, int b) { if (a >= 0) { if (b > (INT_MAX - a)) { /* overflow */ } } else { if (b < (INT_MIN - a)) { /* underflow */ } } return a + b; } 14:25 MTDiscord Thanks. 14:25 erlehmann if you use gcc, there are also some builtins https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Integer-Overflow-Builtins.html 14:26 erlehmann josiah_wi i believe every example calls these safe_add, but some of them do the addition before checking. you must never do this! signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour, so any checks might be optimized out in such a case. 14:26 MTDiscord Always using floats/doubles is not as stupid as it might seem: At least you get proper infinities instead of over/underflows. 14:27 erlehmann luatic i divided by zero in lua and got inf and it was fine because coras code tried to calculate time to next frame from fps setting and i input 0 ^^ 14:27 MTDiscord Minetest needs to run on old machines that might not be as optimized for floating point arithmetic as modern machines, no? 14:28 erlehmann computers are fast 14:28 erlehmann let me again say that i am on a thinkpad t60, minetest runs fine there 14:28 MTDiscord Floating point arithmetic is surprisingly fast, even on old machines 14:29 MTDiscord Minetest runs at 5 to 12 FPS singleplayer and 1 or 2 FPS multiplayer on my dev computer. Performance matters to me haha. 14:29 erlehmann josiah_wi i may have sent you this! https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/theres-only-four-billion-floatsso-test-them-all/ 14:29 erlehmann josiah_wi oh, that is unfortunate. what kind of computer is it? also, is it on windows? 14:30 MTDiscord It's a Dell Inspiron 531 with 2 extra RAM chips. It has an Athalon processor with 2 cores, and I'm running 62 bit Debian Bullseye. 14:31 erlehmann 62 bit? 14:31 erlehmann :D 14:31 MTDiscord 64 bit, sorry 14:31 ROllerozxa aw man, is basic_debug going to be reverted last minute? 14:32 erlehmann i hope so 14:32 MTDiscord we'll see, sfan5's PR doesn't seem quite ready yet and has just been removed from the 5.5 milestone? 14:32 erlehmann Wuzzy was right about it being messed up 14:32 MTDiscord I'll try to make an alternative PR to turn it into a HUD flag 14:32 MTDiscord Should I turn the debug priv into a HUD flag as well? 14:32 erlehmann uh 14:32 ROllerozxa I'd prefer if it was given to singleplayer by default and up to the games to explicitly disable them 14:32 sfan5 the removal from milestone has no meaning 14:32 sfan5 PRs to add anything new will not be accepted one day before release 14:33 sfan5 s/one day before/on the day of/ 14:33 MTDiscord it isn't really "new", it just swaps out the privs for HUD flags... 14:33 erlehmann luatic are you sure we can figure out all the downsides with your approach if it has taken forever to figure out the downside with this approach? 14:33 MTDiscord the downsides with this approach are on the modders, that's the neat part :D 14:34 erlehmann you monster :P 14:35 MTDiscord Anyways, I'll make a PR, may wait until 5.6 I guess ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 14:38 erlehmann rubenwardy celeron55 DM me your IBAN and whatever else i may need (a name? transaction purpose? unclear) to donate for minetest/contentdb hosting pls (i'll use the info from whoever messages me first) 14:38 MTDiscord ... 14:39 MTDiscord your bribery isn't working erlehmann 14:39 erlehmann luatic the PR got merged. i intend to keep my work regardless of if it was the result of bribery. 14:39 erlehmann my word 14:42 erlehmann also minetest has given me much more fun than any other game i have played i think, so maybe i *should* donate something else than complaints :P 14:43 erlehmann josiah_wi super weird that minetest is so slow on your machine, wanna query me and i try to figure sth out? 14:46 celeron55 erlehmann: contact sfan5 directly to fund contentdb hosting. he probably won't accept it though. and i'm good for years of hosting for my part (which does not include contentdb) 14:46 celeron55 eh 14:46 celeron55 i mean rubenwardy 14:46 celeron55 he probably will accept it 14:46 celeron55 sfan5 won't, but you didn't ask to fund the serverlist 14:46 MTDiscord honestly erlehmann should probably be donating to sfan5 if anything 14:47 sfan5 money cannot be exchanged for time so that'd be pointless 14:47 MTDiscord money is exchanged for time all the time 14:47 celeron55 i have heard rubenwardy also good money wise regarding to hosting though 14:47 sfan5 not in those quantities 14:47 MTDiscord true 14:48 celeron55 the other thing about converting money to time is that people usually have full time work elsewhere that they can't take time off to do other work even if they were paid for it 14:50 MTDiscord wow, HUD flags were written with forwards-compatibility in mind! 14:50 MTDiscord the server can send a mask that is 14:51 erlehmann celeron55 it's not about paying for time (way too little money for that), it's about sending a message. “this PR is worth as much as buying a full game is to me”. i could have also said i'd donate to a charity of your choice, but then i thought that there are definitely charities i do not agree with. 14:52 erlehmann nvm, i won't make such an offer again, apparently it is more upsetting than anything. (my existing 2 still stand though.) 14:52 celeron55 the thing is, you really can't vote with donations 14:53 erlehmann nah, i just thought maybe it gets someone's attention 14:53 celeron55 we don't have a system in place for that, and we haven't unofficially done such thing, ever 14:53 erlehmann i figured it's a curveball 14:53 erlehmann dw i doubt i can buy PRs lol 14:54 erlehmann i just thought it might be a better attention grabber than whining on irc (bc i have tried that) 14:54 erlehmann as i said, i won't do it again. 14:55 celeron55 if you want to make a post on social media that you wanted to pay full price for minetest and did so by donating to a charity of the developer's choice, my choice will be EFF 14:55 erlehmann ok, i'll donate to the eff if neither you nor rubenwardy wants it! 14:56 MTDiscord what!? 14:56 erlehmann i believe i should stop taliking about this 14:56 celeron55 this is a bit silly but you do have a point 14:56 erlehmann wdym “have a point?” 14:56 erlehmann with what 14:57 celeron55 i mean, you're getting attention with money 14:57 celeron55 8) 14:58 celeron55 your other option is to save the money and offer it to me in the future when/if i or someone else has an actual use for it that benefits MT 14:58 celeron55 i don't want to bank donations, it's borderline illegal and doesn't promote trust 14:59 erlehmann oh, i see. 14:59 erlehmann makes sense 15:00 erlehmann years ago, when i collected donations for a thing where the hosting costs exceeded my income (huge download, got too popular), i also only asked for donations to cover current, not far future costs. 15:01 celeron55 i have enough for years of hosting. at this rate i'm considering removing the paypal donation option from the website. i got what i need to host the website, and don't have so much time to use for MT that "paying" donations to myself would feel fair 15:01 erlehmann understandable 15:01 erlehmann hmm, the CI is not a cost center? 15:02 ROllerozxa github actions is free 15:02 erlehmann oh, i didn't know 15:02 ROllerozxa for public open source repositories at least 15:02 ROllerozxa anyways put the money to a bounty for libopenmpt support in minetest :) 15:02 celeron55 the only official hosting that's coming from someone's pocket is sfan5's serverlist. but he refuses donations because he hosts other stuff on the same machine 15:04 celeron55 the increase of donations needed to pay someone full time is something like 100x compared to hosting costs 15:04 erlehmann ROllerozxa funny, but i am not a fan of sending obscure input formats over the network. 15:04 celeron55 hosting is tens of money units per month total, a monthly full time paycheck is thousands 15:04 erlehmann celeron55 i wanted to specifically avoid to give money to a person instead of a cause, bc it's a) way too little b) it's too close to actual bribery. 15:08 ROllerozxa erlehmann: aw come on, libopenmpt has seen a lot of testing to not crash on malformed files (fuzz-testing and whatnot). it's certainly better than the older libmodplug library which is essentially abandoned at this point 15:08 MTDiscord c55: why not keep the donation link up, but use the money for core dev voted bug bounties? 15:09 ROllerozxa erlehmann: I just want to see the possibility for music in minetest that isn't absolutely massive. MO3 in particular would be awesome for minetest 15:09 erlehmann ROllerozxa i see the appeal, but minetest is so full of holes it is not funny 15:10 erlehmann no need to add more rn 15:10 erlehmann ROllerozxa could you give me a small example program to fuzz? 15:10 MTDiscord minetest cant even keep audio working that long on windows anyways lol 15:11 celeron55 Jonathon: we can think about core dev voted bug bounties, not sure. if such were implemented, then the donation link should go directly to the issue on bountysource or some such 15:11 MTDiscord just a suggestion 15:12 celeron55 basically the donation link would be a link carousel of sorts, picking one of the issues from a list updated periodically by the core team 15:12 celeron55 or something like that 15:12 celeron55 then the money wouldn't go through anyone, avoiding that legal problem 15:15 celeron55 a more fleshed out proposal wouldn't hurt. someone would have to also implement it 15:15 erlehmann celeron55 since you have not replied to my proposal for maintaining a “stable” version of minetest that gets improved but none of the API breakage (like other projects do it), i guess you don't like it. i'll probably try to contribute that to debian then, adding new patches to old versions. 15:15 erlehmann (mostly security focused) 15:16 celeron55 my question regarding to that is, do we have the resources to do it 15:16 ROllerozxa erlehmann: https://github.com/OpenMPT/openmpt/tree/master/contrib/fuzzing 15:16 ROllerozxa this is their fuzzing suite, I'm sure you probably could get it to run yourself 15:17 erlehmann celeron55 no idea. i mean people are maintaining cheat clients alone and those are mostly based on 5.4.1. i just thought it would also take the heat off discussions. mcl2/mcl5 feature breakage was much more drama before ppl could say “just use mineclonia”. 15:18 erlehmann josiah_wi i suggest to read this paper on integer overflow btw https://www.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/papers/tosem15.pdf 15:19 erlehmann josiah_wi you can ofc also do a width extension overflow test. do the calculation in a wider datatype that can not overflow, then check the result. 15:19 erlehmann josiah_wi i doubt that it works as well as checking inputs though, bc at that point you have type conversions going on, so speed may be an issue 15:19 celeron55 erlehmann: what you propose would practically mean that almost all feature work done by the core team and contributors would go towards the next major version as most of the time features can't be added without *some* kind of imcompatibility when thought about in the strictest way possible 15:20 celeron55 there would be an almost separate team doing minor versions 15:20 erlehmann celeron55 you would be surprised how many game devs are basically fine with the engine except for 1 or 2 of their pet features which they can fake. 15:21 erlehmann fake, as in: tricks like the spiderweb which is a fluid (?) 15:22 erlehmann if 5.4.1 was feature frozen forever, there are still untold possibilities, as the game jam showed 15:22 erlehmann but security updates and performance improvements are important 15:22 erlehmann and no one is going to say “uh i want the less secure, less performant version. bc that is a breaking change” 15:22 celeron55 i would be fine with what i just described, it would be quite different to what's been done ever since MT has existed though 15:24 celeron55 basically, move the versions yet again to the left by one dot 15:24 celeron55 (and remove the first number) 15:24 erlehmann if i can get a list of stuff that is definitely not breaking things, i volunteer to apply that to 5.4.1 to make a 5.4.2 and maintain it for at least a year (as in: apply new stuff to it that is not API breaking) 15:24 MTDiscord maybe you should do you research first 15:25 MTDiscord cause 5.4.2 already exists 15:25 erlehmann the thing is, it becomes easier the more stuff is a breaking change ^^ 15:25 erlehmann for android, yeah, lol 15:25 erlehmann sorry 15:25 MTDiscord it would have to be 5.4.3 15:25 erlehmann hadn't consideret that 15:25 MTDiscord there's a lot of things you dont consider 15:26 erlehmann which is why i talk to ppl who call me out on my bullshit, and i try to do it with theirs 15:28 celeron55 erlehmann: can you write a proposal? bringing this up freely worded in random places at random times doesn't help 15:28 erlehmann celeron55, i can not guarantee it, while writing it i might figure out it's a bad idea after all. but i'll look into it! 15:29 erlehmann Jonathon I had a coworker once who seemed to be very smart but rarely said anything. when i asked her if she was shy, she said: no, she just talks only when she is really sure, to appear super smart. unsurprisingly, i did not have many discussions with her where i learned something new. 15:29 celeron55 it needs to be a proposal that the core team can look at and either agree, change it up and then agree, or disagree 15:29 erlehmann yes, of course 15:30 erlehmann i just think the “one person maintaining a fork” thing is unsustainable, bc then you get stuff where ppl like fleck or cora are a single point of failure. 15:30 celeron55 i could write it myself but i'm not sold on the idea and i'm not sure about the details, so it would feel weird 15:30 erlehmann so i'm going to ask them and kay27 about it 15:31 sfan5 if you want that branch to be compatible with normal minetest that's going to be a huge mess: you either get stuck on an old protocol version and new features may not work or you have to follow new protocol versions and are forced to implement the same stuff upstream does all while figuring out how to not "break" something 15:31 MTDiscord ^ 15:32 erlehmann sfan5 old protocol version obv 15:32 celeron55 it wouldn't work like that. the only way it would work is features are not to be added into it 15:32 celeron55 only bugfixes, security fixes and compatible performance fixes 15:32 sfan5 okay so abugfix only branch 15:32 sfan5 +" " 15:32 erlehmann yeah, that would also benefit linux distributions 15:33 celeron55 i can see it could work, but the core team has to understand it and agree to it 15:33 sfan5 s/liinux distributions/debian/ 15:33 erlehmann sfan5 a lot of stuff is based on debian 15:33 MTDiscord s/linux distributions/not arch 15:34 erlehmann sfan5 “tell me that btw you use arch without literally telling me that btw you use arch” ;) 15:34 celeron55 it would essentially be like an extended support release. there's a chance it would skip over some major releases 15:35 MTDiscord tbh its probably at best just going to become a time sucker from actually working on mte 15:35 erlehmann why would backporting fixes suck time away 15:36 erlehmann if you got someone volunteering to do it 15:38 celeron55 some MT forks actually are in nature just like extended support releases, so the manpower might be out there. the questions is can it be collected into one place 15:40 celeron55 well, forks do have a tendency to devolve into adding incompatible features and then not being able to jump to the next upstream version 15:40 celeron55 that's the thing to avoid 15:40 erlehmann that's why i want it to be very constrained 15:46 celeron55 people hating new incompatible features is actually a compliment. it means for some purposes, MT is already good enough. so in theory those who like what's already there can start maintaining that, and those who want more can develop more 15:47 celeron55 in practice, i have no idea if it can work like that 15:49 celeron55 if we are to take that route, then this release might have to be 6.0.0 15:51 celeron55 basically every time people start complaining about new features it's an indication that the major version has to be incremented 15:53 erlehmann i still think that for a lot of things people should consider adding numeric suffixes to functions. linux has clone2 and clone3 and wait3 and wait4 … 15:53 sfan5 we are neither linux nor windows 15:53 erlehmann i'm just saying that is how you avoid complaints 15:53 erlehmann it's not the new features, most of the time. 15:53 erlehmann it's the breakage 15:54 sfan5 those two happens to be connected 15:54 sfan5 happen* 15:56 erlehmann you keep saying that and what i hear is “it would be *way* too much effort”, is that an interpretation you can agree with? 15:57 sfan5 obviously 16:01 MTDiscord What's the point of the register_playerevent return value? It doesn't seem to be used at all 16:33 Krock @luatic none. ignored in ScriptApiEnv::player_event. 16:33 Krock maybe there used to be one? it's an internal function after all, hence I would expect some changes every now and then 16:34 MTDiscord I'd like to voice my support for labeling this release 6.0 and getting on with it 16:36 Krock are we doing polls? I'd vote against that. 16:38 MTDiscord Wait wait wait, don't engine-default privs have a conf setting? Just add it to that, and let games who don't want it set the default_privs setting in the game provided minetest.conf 16:39 MTDiscord Boom, everybody's happy 16:40 sfan5 that does not apply to existing users 16:43 MTDiscord Can we have an upgrade privs setting? If there must be a perfect solution where nobody has to do anything, maybe a setting that grants users a privilege the first time they join since a certain date? 16:43 MTDiscord This feels like an easy mod though 16:45 sfan5 enough bandaid could be put on the current impl to make it okay 16:45 sfan5 or we could just drop it and reimplement it using hud flags 16:45 MTDiscord In the end, somebody is going to be unhappy. If it must be me, then it must be me. 16:45 MTDiscord Wasn't there a rejected hud flags implementation? 16:46 MTDiscord Also, the priv makes it easy for admins to grant it to players 16:46 MTDiscord Maybe make it a disable_debug priv? 16:47 sfan5 both ways were discussed once 16:47 MTDiscord No, reverse privs are dirty 16:47 MTDiscord I don't care 16:47 MTDiscord modlib has utils for checking against them I believe, but the engine doesn't 16:50 rubenwardy I don't remember a HUD flags implementation 16:50 MTDiscord A priv, a property, a flag, positive, negative, we have something for this finally but it's going to be reverted because there might be servers which won't react quickly (not an engine problem), existing games might want it by default, and somebody complained. 16:50 rubenwardy I suggested it, but I don't remember seeing it be done 16:51 rubenwardy I either want: 16:51 rubenwardy - it to be left as is 16:51 rubenwardy - or for it to be reverted and replaced with HUD flags in the next release 16:51 rubenwardy Adding a hacky mod to MTG will just make it harder to mods to disable it 16:52 MTDiscord I'll say it again, not everyone can be made happy, devs have to be ok with that. I'll go back to my cave of trying not to bitch about the engine as much as possible now :-) 16:52 sfan5 btw that somebody who complained is the person who initially proposed, implemented and argued for the solution 16:53 MTDiscord I am aware 16:53 rubenwardy That hacky mod could be third party though 17:12 ROllerozxa HuguesRoss: I saw you commented on my PR about how it's unfortunate texture pack main menu textures require a restart, so I made a fix for it in #12018 17:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12018 -- Apply texture pack main menu textures immediately by rollerozxa 17:12 MTDiscord @Sharp had a decent suggestion, /grant_to_all and /revoke_from_all commands 17:12 HuguesRoss So I saw! I'll review it later, thanks for the PR 18:11 MTDiscord I'm just going to say that I'm very disappointed about the basic_debug revert. 18:12 MTDiscord I'm not going to provide a suggestion for how to fix it because lack of suggestions has never been the problem. 18:13 sfan5 I suppose for nodecore it did the right thing out of the box? 18:14 MTDiscord Not sure what you mean. It has always done as close to the right thing out of the box as I'm able to achieve. 18:15 sfan5 if for nodecore you wanted the coordinate display to be hidden then the PR did that for you without needing to anything 18:15 MTDiscord Yes, it would have worked. And actually was working well for those users using 5.5-dev on 5.5-dev servers. 18:15 MTDiscord There were actually enough people apparently using 5.5-dev that this is probably going to be a visible regression for them. 18:16 erlehmann providing debug info is a regression? 18:16 MTDiscord Correct. 18:16 erlehmann in what way? they can simply not press f5 18:16 MTDiscord They have no way to know that they're supposed to not press F5. 18:17 erlehmann whereas in the other direction, users who could press f5 to get their bearings, no longer can 18:17 sfan5 you out of all people should have no issue considering something a regression by a strict definition 18:17 MTDiscord Can we like, not rebuild the bike shed? 18:17 MTDiscord This is ridiculous 18:17 MTDiscord I mean there was a reason why I said "not gonna propose a suggestion" 18:18 erlehmann i think that wuzzy, who proposed and implemented the thing, now has gone back on it, speaks for itself. 18:18 MTDiscord Benrob came in here to make sure that his protest was registered, from what I could tell, so I just wanted to make sure that people were not unaware of mine as well. 18:18 MTDiscord Mostly directed towards erl 18:18 erlehmann wuzzy has always been an advocate of users. much more than any other dev i know. 18:18 MTDiscord Seems like the idea is to replace it with a hud flag anyway? 18:19 MTDiscord I am not here to have the same argument in triplicate. I'm here to advocate for MY users. 18:19 MTDiscord A HUD flag would work for me. It would have worked for me the first time it was proposed and then ultimately rejected :-| 18:19 erlehmann same 18:19 MTDiscord I can only hope that changes have happened in the project and/or people involved that would make that past rejection no longer relevant to its future plight. 18:20 erlehmann people can change their opinions in light of new evidence, you know 18:20 MTDiscord From what I could tell, the priv is only being reverted on the condition that a hud flag is introduced immediately to replace it 18:21 MTDiscord You mean in 5.5? 18:21 MTDiscord Yes 18:21 MTDiscord Also note there is a setting to enable debug info by default, I do a lot of modding so I have that set 18:21 MTDiscord I could support doing that, so long as it doesn't mean I'm ALSO supporting further delay of 5.5's release... 18:21 MTDiscord A lot of CTF players set it for the coordinates 18:21 erlehmann LandarVargan now is that good or bad, hmm? 18:22 MTDiscord Whether it's good or bad in general really depends on the game. 18:22 MTDiscord It means that you have to disable it manually every time you join a Nodecore world 18:22 erlehmann a lot of anarchy server players also set it for the coordinates, so they do not build on straights or diagonals. griefers like to go to coordinates like 1000,0,1000 or 5000,0,0 and TNT everything. 18:23 MTDiscord So I discount your 'just don't press f5' argument 18:23 erlehmann and before someone discounts minetest anarchy, it's like normal minetest with super smart mobs that may fight you or collaborate, who knows. 18:24 sfan5 I'll go and import the weblate translations soon 18:24 sfan5 then we can merge 12016 18:24 sfan5 and 12001 18:25 sfan5 and perhaps decide about 12006 18:25 sfan5 and then do the release 18:25 sfan5 if that's fine with everyone 18:25 Krock alright 18:26 Krock quickly testing 12006 18:26 MTDiscord Why was this added/removed? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 18:27 sfan5 I thought it was not worth delaying 5.5 to fix this, it's not a critical issue either 18:27 Krock is it a new issue? probably not. 18:27 sfan5 good that you mention it though, maybe someone disagrees 18:28 MTDiscord So whats happening with 12011? That is happening before 5.5 yeah? 18:28 sfan5 it's happening but the way you might think 18:28 sfan5 basic_debug is being removed 18:28 sfan5 not the way* 18:29 MTDiscord Well yes we know that 18:29 MTDiscord But it needs to be replaced by a hud flag yeah? 18:29 sfan5 after 5.5, yes 18:29 MTDiscord Oh, great 18:29 MTDiscord That's a long time to wait, servers you can update but not clients 18:29 sfan5 (misread your first question as "is 12011 happening before 5.5"...) 18:30 sfan5 well 5.6 doesn't have to take as long as 5.5 to release 18:30 sfan5 twice a year is our rough schedule, we can deviate from it in either direction 18:30 MTDiscord Never mind @Warr1024, dev regression time. I give up :/ 18:31 MTDiscord Players don't update as soon as a new release comes out though 18:31 MTDiscord Green: yeah, that's what it sounded like to me at first. 18:32 MTDiscord I mean technically it works on an "it was never actually released" basis, but there will be people who'll notice still... 18:32 MTDiscord Inevitably it's gonna be bikeshedded for months and 5.6 will take another year 18:37 sfan5 a single issue is not going to delay a release by 6 months 18:37 MTDiscord The two don't have to correlate 18:38 sfan5 if they do not correlate there is no causal relation either 18:39 MTDiscord Ok 18:40 MTDiscord Put a period between them if it makes you feel better 18:40 sfan5 I misunderstood what you were saying then 18:41 sfan5 by the way 18:41 sfan5 who is writing the changelog? 18:42 Krock I can do that, but it'll have to wait about two hours 18:42 sfan5 take as much time as you need 18:42 Krock okay 18:44 Krock PROTOCOL_VERSION has been bumped earlier in 5.5.0-dev already. good so far 18:45 Krock FORMSPEC_API_VERSION was increased from 4 -> 5 18:45 MTDiscord I just mean the issue is going to be bikeshed, and when it is finally merged, the next version is still gonna take forever to release 18:45 Krock a minetest release is long overdue 18:45 Krock there's surely time for discussions after this one 18:46 Krock worst case is a stall of one feature, which however should not slow down the release cycle 18:53 MTDiscord How hard would it be to quickly add a hud flag? 18:54 Krock not hard, but error-prone when doing it without good testing 18:54 MTDiscord If those who want it can't take the time to test it then I don't see why it needs to be added 18:54 MTDiscord *added for 5.5 18:54 MTDiscord I shall create a PR, hud flags sound pretty simple 18:55 Krock famous words before desaster 18:55 appguru I already worked on it. Remember to send the bits inverted so that they default to one if not sent ;) 18:55 sfan5 I understand the sentiment but hud flags, migration code or anything more than a simple revert is not going to be in 5.5 18:56 sfan5 weblate commits https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commits/ci, waiting for CI 18:56 sfan5 assuming it even runs 18:56 HuguesRoss I'd invite you to do it anyway though, the sooner we get a PR the sooner we can start the review process. Personally I think it'd be nice to aim for an accelerated dev cycle for 5.6, so we can re-instate the stuff cut out of 5.5 with the desired fixes at a reasonable pace 18:57 * Krock goes afk. back in approx. 1 hour 18:57 sfan5 absolutely 18:57 sfan5 I just don't want disappointment when someone tells you in an hour that your finished & tested PR will not be in 5.5 18:58 MTDiscord The problem is that we get in hell's kitchen if the debug priv is not ripped out 18:59 MTDiscord We're already adding an inconsistency :( 18:59 MTDiscord i.e. if you revert the basic_debug priv, please revert the debug priv as well - just revert the entire darn PR 19:00 MTDiscord Pretty sure debug priv predates the pr 19:00 MTDiscord ^this 19:00 MTDiscord you're right 19:05 MTDiscord I'll create the PR so I won't wish I did 19:05 MTDiscord I'll do it already 19:05 MTDiscord I feel like the feature freeze was meant to stop situations like this though 19:05 MTDiscord Oh, you started it? 19:06 MTDiscord Feel free then 19:06 MTDiscord PR for which thing? 19:06 MTDiscord basic_debug as a hud flag 19:06 MTDiscord ah, okay 19:07 MTDiscord I guess hopefully we could at least get it into 5.6-dev early in the cycle so people who were tracking dev before won't have much of a hiccup. 19:08 MTDiscord I also want to see 5.5 get officially released sooner rather than later because I've been holding off on my servers at the last commit before the zstdpocalypse. 19:09 MTDiscord Once it's been officially released then MT will actually officially support zstd maps and I can start expecting players to be able to use them. 19:13 MTDiscord @Luatic my PR works, not sure how far along you are 19:15 MTDiscord Should I write lua_pushboolean(L, (player->hud_flags & esp[i].num) == 0); with or without the == 0= 19:15 MTDiscord ? 19:15 MTDiscord I was done until I realized I needed to put debug back in. I still need to wrap my head around sending the bits inverted. 19:15 MTDiscord Where is esp[i].num coming from? 19:16 MTDiscord const EnumString *esp = es_HudBuiltinElement; 19:16 MTDiscord I'm cleaning up some code in the process 19:16 MTDiscord Ah 19:16 MTDiscord l_hud_get_flags currently isn't using es_HudBuiltinElement, but should be 19:21 MTDiscord Let's recap all client - server cases: old - old: doesn't matter; new - old: debug should be show; old - new: doesn't matter; new - new: debug should be flag-controlled 19:21 MTDiscord when not sending inverted: new - old: debug won't ever be shown I guess 19:24 MTDiscord Although, I believe the mask might render this obsolete 19:28 MTDiscord Yep it shouldn't matter 19:40 MTDiscord #12020 19:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12020 -- Debug HUD flag by appgurueu 19:41 HuguesRoss re #12006, I've approved but left a note about it. I'm not 100% secure with this fix, and I'm interested in opinions about if my fears are correct or not 19:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12006 -- Abort raycasts that go out-of-bounds by sfan5 19:43 MTDiscord i'm 100% secure with this fix in terms it won't freeze the server, but i still think raycast should be fixed to return the right points 19:45 MTDiscord ^ 20:10 MTDiscord What happens if I try to set a HUD flag to false on a version before the HUD flag was added? Is it just silent-ignored, or will it throw an error? Will I have a way to detect whether I can use and/or rely on that flag? 20:10 rubenwardy It'll be silently ignored 20:13 MTDiscord It's simple: Clients and servers up to and including 5.4 obviously won't care. 20:15 MTDiscord Excellent. 20:28 sfan5 merging 12006, 12016, 12001 20:47 sfan5 starting release process now 20:48 sfan5 (for reference https://dev.minetest.net/Releasing_Minetest#The_process) 20:51 Krock 60% done with the changelog (local draft) 20:59 sfan5 thanks for doing that 21:06 sfan5 I exit an MTG session on the win32 build and it crashes, this is not good news 21:06 Krock native Windows or Wine? (70%) 21:08 sfan5 wine 21:08 Krock shall I test on Windows for comparison? 21:08 sfan5 I'll test that too but last time it was a problem on both 21:15 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/70df3d54f37c280f7afe60f6e964b8406577f39f this seems very similar 21:15 sfan5 I wonder how I found out the source last time 21:21 Krock changelog is done 21:22 Krock windbg? 21:22 Krock generate and examine a minidump file in windbg 21:24 sfan5 I'll try gdb 21:26 sfan5 310M minetest.exe 21:26 sfan5 that's a lot of debug information 21:27 Krock gtg. good luck with hat. 21:31 sfan5 gdb says it's the thread_local zstd context deletion 21:31 sfan5 now this is tricky, because we can't just make it global 21:32 sfan5 is it okay if I introduce a memory leak? 21:33 sfan5 ah wait it's the unique_ptr itself 21:45 MTDiscord Oh, could we get installer builds please? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11176 21:46 sfan5 rubenwardy, HuguesRoss, v-rob: requesting opinions on http://sprunge.us/VNVXRz?diff 21:47 rubenwardy Installer builds are great for user experience 21:48 rubenwardy That fix is dumb, as mentioned 21:48 rubenwardy But the memory leak is limited if only one is created 21:48 sfan5 worse than dumb 21:48 HuguesRoss sfan5, If I understand your previous comments is the crash tied to std::unique_ptr itself? 21:49 v-rob Ouch. Thanks, MinGW 21:49 HuguesRoss ie. can we manage this one resource ourselves? 21:49 rubenwardy Do we need to continue supporting mingw when we make our official builds using BS 21:49 sfan5 mingw32 in whatever version we currently have seems to have a problem with destructing thread_local variables 21:49 rubenwardy *VS 21:50 sfan5 (in it's defense I haven't updated the compiler in at least a year) 21:50 sfan5 gdb reports that whatever is being destructed (before std::set, now std::unique_ptr) has its destructor called with this = nullptr 21:50 HuguesRoss hm, I see. I guess what I'd do then is implement the leaky fix but document it in an issue? 21:50 sfan5 in this case the resource cannot be shared between threads so the only other alternative is creating a new resource on every call 21:50 v-rob Is there an alternative to thread_local that we could use? 21:51 sfan5 rubenwardy: official builds haven't been VS in years 21:51 Wuzzy alright, I am going on a Minetest-dev testing spree now. wish me luck 21:51 HuguesRoss That way, if/when a fix occurs we can remove the hack 21:51 rubenwardy That doesn't make sense. Is this an upstream bug? 21:51 sfan5 yes 21:51 sfan5 it's not our fault 21:51 Wuzzy feel free to point me to anything important you want tested 21:51 sfan5 HuguesRoss: sure, I want to get rid of it asap anyway 21:51 sfan5 not sure where to best document this though 21:51 sfan5 maybe an issue? 21:51 HuguesRoss that was my idea, yeah 21:51 rubenwardy sfan5: could we update and use the GitHub MSVC builds in future? 21:52 rubenwardy Obviously not for this release 21:52 sfan5 we could yes 21:52 rubenwardy iirc it's just missing deps right? Like LuaJIT GC64 21:53 sfan5 true 21:53 sfan5 with mingw we (or rather I) have the entire dependency chain under control so I'd rather stay with it 21:53 sfan5 anyway I'll push the aforementioned awful fix 21:53 sfan5 and open an issue 21:54 sfan5 then re-do the windows builds and we can continue with the release 21:54 rubenwardy doesn't vcpkg give us control over the chain? 21:54 rubenwardy cross-compiling is suboptimal when making native builds 21:54 sfan5 "control" in this case meant that I wrote the scripts that build the dependencies myself 21:54 sfan5 just like android basically 21:55 sfan5 (https://github.com/sfan5/mingw-pkgs fyi) 21:55 Wuzzy Any translators hanging out here? 21:56 Wuzzy because it would be nice to have builtin in more languages ? 21:56 sfan5 rubenwardy: btw can you quickly confirm that the new version code needs to be 38? 21:58 rubenwardy correct 21:59 sfan5 ty 22:01 v-rob Alternatively, is it possible to compile stuff with VS make make them official Windows builds for this release? 22:01 v-rob Or is there a problem with that I don't know about? 22:02 sfan5 temporarily switching to VS is too many unknowns IMO 22:03 sfan5 in other news I just ran out of running two compiles at the same time while having my windows VM running 22:03 sfan5 and I already have 16 gig o.O 22:03 sfan5 +RAM 22:08 sfan5 okay windows builds are fine this time 22:13 sfan5 looks like that's all, let's go 22:24 sfan5 website updated, news topic posted 22:24 sfan5 >Announce the release on the Twitter account. rubenwardy has access. 22:24 sfan5 and whatever this involves: Add the new version to the drop-down list of compatible Minetest versions that authors can select for their things. 22:25 sfan5 if someone has cool ideas which features to highlight in the topic (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=27754) please write them here 22:25 HuguesRoss Only thing I'd note in the changelog, the zstd compression is mentioned under deprecations and compatibility notes but doesn't mention that the conversion makes maps not loadable in 5.4.x 22:26 HuguesRoss Might be worth putting that down just to ensure folks are aware 22:26 Pexin was rubenwardy serious about maybe releasing an external reverse migration util? 22:29 rubenwardy merging #11784 in 10 22:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11784 -- Use virtual paths to specify exact mod to enable by rubenwardy 22:29 rubenwardy and also making an Android build 22:29 erlehmann releasing an external reverse migration util sounds good. who of you has one? 22:29 erlehmann i mean, strictly for dev purposes 22:30 erlehmann or when you accidentally have no backup 22:30 sfan5 HuguesRoss: added 22:33 Pexin I'd consider making that Note NOTE but, shrug 22:38 Wuzzy "Chop game background in mainmenu" → this breaks the Tutorial mainmenu screen 22:38 Wuzzy Tutorial uses overlay.png to have some basic instructions on what to click 22:39 sfan5 hmm I guess I could download the mac build from github and link that on the forum 22:39 sfan5 or do those need to be signed off by apple 22:39 sfan5 can someone from the discord side ping Jordach on this? 22:40 rubenwardy Jordach: 22:40 rubenwardy that pings Discord users 22:41 sfan5 discord users have a tendency to rename themselves to random things 22:41 sfan5 so I wasn't sure if that'd work 22:41 MTDiscord uwot 22:41 rubenwardy true, I suspect it's based on username 22:41 rubenwardy but yeah, hard to check from this side 22:41 MTDiscord >be signed off by apple 22:41 MTDiscord nope 22:41 MTDiscord you can run unsigned on M1 22:42 MTDiscord app store yes, self made builds no 22:43 sfan5 so if I download the CI artifact and offer it for people to download they can just run it? 22:43 MTDiscord yes 22:43 sfan5 that's neither self made nor app store 22:43 MTDiscord with the correct security procedure 22:43 sfan5 ... 22:44 MTDiscord you have to manually allow non signed builds yourself 22:44 sfan5 that sounds bad 22:44 sfan5 can we get our build signed? 22:44 MTDiscord yes 22:44 sfan5 not for app store distribution, just file downloads 22:44 MTDiscord but do you have the functional equivalent of $99 22:45 sfan5 I thought notarization was free? 22:45 MTDiscord requires the dev license 22:46 sfan5 disappointed but not surprised 22:46 MTDiscord with Linux on M1 getting increasingly closer with full Mesa support 22:47 MTDiscord (then again, with the fact you're buying a M1 family to begin with, you're going to get trouble) 22:47 erlehmann well i expect the m1 aarch64 development to be good for reform2 customers (such as me) 22:47 erlehmann in some capacity 22:47 MTDiscord spoiler alert no 22:48 erlehmann why 22:48 sfan5 Linux on aarch64 is already solid 22:48 erlehmann oh, OS X is that bad? 22:48 MTDiscord the problem is booting it 22:48 erlehmann didn't know 22:48 erlehmann sorry 22:48 erlehmann wait it's bootlocked? 22:48 MTDiscord https://github.com/pipcet/pearl 22:49 Pexin Apple: Your Computer is really Our Computer 22:49 Pexin (also google) 22:49 rubenwardy please lets not start another flamewar 22:49 rubenwardy at least go to #minetest 22:49 Pexin sory 22:50 Pexin unrelated question: it's my understanding the IME integration only works for linux? yes/no? 22:50 MTDiscord bump on installer build question 22:50 sfan5 correct 22:50 sfan5 nobody wanted to bother with IME on windows apparently 22:51 sfan5 probably not hard to do 22:51 Pexin hm. not sure it should be hilighted in the release list then 22:51 Pexin if crossplatform then I'd definitely suggest it 22:52 sfan5 press F5 22:54 rubenwardy SDL should help with that, it has IME support 23:04 Wuzzy rubenwardy: what's a package alias? 23:04 rubenwardy Wuzzy: ContentDB uses author/name to uniquely identify a package 23:04 rubenwardy A package alias allows that key to be changed 23:04 Wuzzy how? 23:04 rubenwardy on ContentDB 23:05 rubenwardy by contacting me 23:05 rubenwardy basically, it allows changing usernames on ContentDB in the future 23:05 Wuzzy Does any package use this so far? 23:05 rubenwardy not yet 23:05 Wuzzy ah 23:05 Wuzzy clever 23:05 MTDiscord re: discord pings: Its supposed to be based on usernames. Whether or not it is in practice is another story entirely ? 23:05 rubenwardy Mineclone2 could use this to move to a Mineclone2 user, rather than "Wuzzy" 23:06 MTDiscord Oh, ill be the first then: Can you move all of my packages to my name? 23:06 MTDiscord ? 23:06 rubenwardy done 23:07 MTDiscord Awesome, thanks 23:40 erlehmann celeron55 here is my proposal https://mister-muffin.de/p/6WEU.html 23:41 erlehmann oh, i have a word duplication in it 23:41 erlehmann celeron55 here is my fixed proposal https://mister-muffin.de/p/6WEU.html