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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-01-29

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Time Nick Message
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03:59 erlehmann i have made some remarks on how to avoid breaking changes in the engine while not impeding progress. what would be a good venue for further discussion? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11989#issuecomment-1024796327
04:00 erlehmann (this text can not be in the forum because cheat clients, lol)
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06:40 Baytuch Good morning
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10:39 sfan5 wow another three page rant from erlehmann
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11:02 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: Open another issue, something like "Backwards compatibility policy" which then gets tagged Discussion Controversial
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11:03 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: is there any user-friendly way to "downgrade" maps from ZSTD to GZIP, or to prevent the upgrade in the first place?
11:04 sfan5 compiling is not user friendly
11:04 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> there would be that thing to recompile minetest to save in the older format
11:04 sfan5 an external program could potentially do it
11:04 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> but that's not user friendly
11:04 MTDiscord <luatic> The map upgrading probably deserves it's own issue, not only related to the get_player_control() - many will try out 5.5 but might prefer sticking with 5.4 because of other breakage that will inevitably occur.
11:05 MTDiscord <luatic> Was it rubenwardy who suggested that users be shown a dialog to ask them whether they want their map to be upgraded?
11:06 MTDiscord <luatic> That'd sound like rather good UX to me, although it might get in the way. Probably add something like a "remember my decision" checkbox?
11:06 sfan5 half of our users won't even know what that means
11:06 MTDiscord <luatic> That's why we rephrase it understandably
11:07 MTDiscord <luatic> Something like "Upgrade your map? You won't be able to use it on 5.4 and lower, but it will be smaller and faster."
11:07 sfan5 the same half of our users would never think about downgrading
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11:19 sfan5 fyi I would be okay with a temporary setting that tells MT to write the old format but 👎 on anything with user interaction like you described
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12:46 Baytuch is better for me: https://github.com/minetest-mods/skinsdb/pull/64/files . I dont see when users change skin and grep db file.
13:00 sfan5 this channel is for development of the minetest engine only, so please mention such things in #minetest in the future
13:04 Baytuch okay, sfan5
13:27 erlehmann luatic sfan what about having a setting for “upgrade old maps” initially set to false?
13:28 erlehmann i mean gzip compat has to be there forever anyway right?
14:13 sfan5 no
14:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Why can't we just have a user dialog? Is informed consent that bad?
14:14 sfan5 do you remember when Internet Explorer asked for consent everytime it connected to a HTTPS webpage?
14:15 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Thats a borderline strawman, this isn't for every world, just ones that haven't been upgraded yet.
14:15 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Its the opposite of that IE dialog, actually
14:17 sfan5 it was meant to be an example of "asking for consent for trivialities that the average user will not understand and just click whatever gets them past the dialog"
14:18 Pexin wasnt the suggestion from the other day to just not start the game if the user says no?  after a dialog explicitly warning the conversion is not reversible?
14:18 sfan5 dunno
14:18 Pexin not continuing to support oldmode
14:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> No matter what we do, there will be pain, but not making it irreversible pain would probably be best
14:19 sfan5 writing an older map format is just toggling a value (it has to be supported anyway) so that'd be more practical
14:19 Krock_ this is by far not the first time when map versions changed
14:19 Krock_ it happens every now and then, and that's how software development goes
14:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> No, but there has been concern
14:20 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I don't know why only now, but its here
14:20 Pexin there are probably far more users now than there have ever been
14:20 Krock_ the discussions will past as soon another new version is out
14:21 Krock_ *pass  *Minetest version
14:22 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> My last 2¢ are this: We can't fix user stupidity, but we can give them a chance to not be stupid.
14:23 sfan5 what happened to making backups? Do people not do this?
14:23 Pexin so, a config value to write into oldmode would be trivial?
14:24 sfan5 by the way determing "has this map been opened in 5.5 or newer" is a non-trivial problem, there can be any amount of mapblocks in any version inside a database
14:24 sfan5 Pexin: correct
14:27 MTDiscord <MisterE> correct, unfortunately
14:27 freshreplicant[m Is it possible to make a copy of the map in the old format automatically and notify the user of this? Or at least to give them a prompt like "Make a copy of the original map?"
14:27 Pexin freshreplicant[m: some maps are collossal
14:28 rubenwardy Best solution is a tool to downgrade maps
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14:30 sfan5 would have to be written (though I have an unreleased one like that)
14:31 sfan5 more importantly we need consensus in the dev team, with these things it's 2-3 vocal users arguing against 1 or maybe two active coredevs which is not great
14:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Consent wouldn't be so bad, as long as it's not a long-term thing.  Something like "warning: upgrading the map will make it incompatible with 5.4-.  Not upgrading the map will make it incompatible with 5.6+"  Users who choose not to upgrade will just have to dismiss the nag screen each time they start up until they either cave, or they upgrade to 5.6 and the not-upgrading option is removed.
14:40 Pexin no mention of 5.6 is needed, it's just clutter
14:43 erlehmann > Not upgrading the map will make it incompatible with 5.6+
14:43 erlehmann that's just bollocks, the conversion code does not magically bitrot
14:43 erlehmann input and output formats are well defined and understood
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14:54 MTDiscord <luatic> Another issue is that these async errors are buggy
15:05 erlehmann luatic wdym?
15:06 MTDiscord <luatic> #11698
15:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11698 -- Async "mapblock version mismatch error" seems to be stuck in deadlock sometimes
15:08 erlehmann uh oh
15:08 sfan5 rubenwardy, Krock, HuguesRoss: are you available tomorrow evening to assist with the release
15:08 HuguesRoss timezone?
15:08 rubenwardy Yes
15:08 rubenwardy Cest
15:08 MTDiscord <luatic> yep, I can still reproduce it
15:08 Krock UTC+1 or so
15:08 rubenwardy Well, UTC is usually used
15:09 rubenwardy Cest is UTC+1 I think?
15:09 Krock I will try to be around, but cannot yet promise it
15:09 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: it's simple really, sometimes instead of properly throwing the "async err" it's stuck at "shutting down" forever
15:09 rubenwardy Oops, that's summer time
15:09 erlehmann rubenwardy, UTC+2 is CEST
15:09 HuguesRoss Yeah, I think I should be fine then. "Evening" CEST is early afternoon for me
15:09 erlehmann but it is winter right now
15:09 rubenwardy Have we closed all blockers? Are we reasonably sure it's been sufficiently tested?
15:10 rubenwardy Yeah, CET is UTC+1
15:10 erlehmann rubenwardy could you please look at the thing where sfan5 aligns mapblock boundaries with mapgen boundaries?
15:10 MTDiscord <luatic> #11365 is still open
15:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11365 -- Shadowmaps cannot be disabled by the server
15:10 HuguesRoss Anyway, I'm UTC-5 so I'll be around
15:10 erlehmann it's a very simple change and it fixes a lot of problems
15:11 sfan5 to be more exact everything from 18 to 21 UTC is fine for me
15:11 erlehmann rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866
15:12 erlehmann the problem is that a bunch of code uses MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT or how it's called for “where does the gameworld end” and it lies inside a mapblock, so logically the outermost mapblock is half-working only
15:13 erlehmann because obviously the mapgen has generated past MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT for literally forever
15:13 erlehmann if you do not merge this, expect crashes with generated structures in the outermost mapblock and with lua mapgens in general
15:14 sfan5 speaking of blockers #11699 needs a merge, #12001 an approval
15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11699 -- Disable dynamic shadows for 5.5.0 release by SmallJoker
15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12001 -- Update credits for 5.5.0 by sfan5
15:14 sfan5 #11831 and #11992 won't make it, not critical IMO
15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11831 -- Don't go out of the map during raycast by savilli
15:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 -- Heap UAF in craft recipes
15:14 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: the heap UAF is a vuln though?
15:15 sfan5 well yea
15:15 erlehmann does #11831 mean you can crash the game by using mcl2 buckets at the map border? or do you need to *start* out of bounds?
15:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11831 -- Don't go out of the map during raycast by savilli
15:15 erlehmann i can test this if this is important to anyone
15:16 MTDiscord <luatic> this matters for everything that uses raycasts, including guns, and yes, it allows to send the game into an inf loop
15:16 erlehmann fun times!
15:16 MTDiscord <luatic> but wasn't the final "agreement" that instead of properly clipping the raycast, the overflow should have been fixed?
15:16 sfan5 that was my suggestion yes
15:16 erlehmann luatic geting people to agree on fixing overflows is notoriously difficult though, but yeah, it's a good suggestion.
15:17 erlehmann i'm beginning to warm up to cora's “warn ppl to hold off on upgrading to 5.5, because you can not downgrade your maps” stance tbh
15:17 erlehmann too many bugs still
15:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Not patching the raycast isnt the biggest thing as it isnt a new bug. That said i would agree if possible a patch should be merged
15:18 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: many of these bugs have existed in 5.4 and lower as well though, if you're referring to the raycast bug?
15:18 erlehmann luatic yeah, but i find it telling that “update credits” is a blocker but “fix a crash that is used in the wild to make servers unplayable” is none.
15:19 sfan5 please can you just
15:19 sfan5 not say anything
15:19 erlehmann ok
15:19 MTDiscord <luatic> the problem is that while the credits are manageable, fixing crashes takes forever#
15:19 MTDiscord <luatic> there are tons of segfaults
15:19 sfan5 while not disallowed here I would appreciate if you could keep tangentially development related comments in #minetest
15:20 MTDiscord <luatic> I'd love it if I could sneak in #12000
15:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12000 -- Fix builtin statbar backgrounds by appgurueu
15:20 sfan5 I just wanted to mention that
15:20 sfan5 but only if we're confident that it works
15:21 sfan5 regarding the craft recipes thing, yes it's a reliably triggerable C++ bug but not really the first and in the end people still choose mods they install
15:21 MTDiscord <luatic> Well, the first commit (https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12000/commits/a6b7ccf7c5866e4125427e08daa0ebf7a4a25d8f) is literally a trivial fix for the "half bg icons"
15:22 sfan5 have you looked at all the translation PRs in game?
15:22 sfan5 (I have not but we want two approvals anyway)
15:22 MTDiscord <luatic> I'd merge the french one already
15:23 MTDiscord <luatic> game#2922 that is
15:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2922 -- Update french translations by dacmot
15:23 MTDiscord <luatic> because Hugues approval should definitely count there
15:25 sfan5 sure
15:26 MTDiscord <luatic> oh yay, Calinou just reviewed too!
15:28 sfan5 also the least thankful task: someone will have to write a changelog
15:32 Pexin #11969 trivial fix and future-proofing for plans of mine. needs review. super simple. I'll make you a pie..?
15:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11969 -- Use absolute value for bouncy in collision by pecksin
15:33 sfan5 I think v-rob wanted to look at that
15:37 sfan5 @luatic I looked at the other two now
15:39 erlehmann can i try bribery as well? i'll send 25€ via SEPA to wherever celeron55 or rubenwardy tell me it would contributes to minetest or contentdb hosting if https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866 is included in 5.5
15:39 sfan5 don't think that'll work
15:41 erlehmann well, the offer is out there!
15:41 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> lol, bug bounty but for merging a finished PR?
15:43 erlehmann i think it neatly illustrates how much i think this fix is necessary.
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15:57 HuguesRoss I've approved #12000, my opinion is that it's a low enough priority bugfix that we may want to hold it back if we're actually planning to ship 5.5 tomorrow
15:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12000 -- Fix builtin statbar backgrounds by appgurueu
16:00 MTDiscord <luatic> HuguesRoss: The "half heart bg" thing is really low priority, agreed, but the "scale to default" is completely broken in it's current form
16:01 MTDiscord <luatic> I suppose I should have opened two PRs to get the low priority thing merged as a trivial bugfix without the need for two approvals
16:02 HuguesRoss For me personally, within 48hrs of a release I see the priority limit around the level of crashes, RCE, data destruction, etc
16:03 HuguesRoss Otherwise it's easy to run into the "pushing to production on a Friday afternoon" problem
16:03 sfan5 I agree
16:05 erlehmann HuguesRoss do you want to look at 11866 then? it mitigates both crashes and data destruction (corrupted mapgen at boundaries)
16:07 Pexin what about "one more week" for a rc2?
16:08 * Pexin gets smacked
16:08 HuguesRoss erlehmann: Just gave the diff a glance, that change seems suspiciously simple to me
16:08 HuguesRoss I can give it a more thorough look, but my gut instinct is telling me it's going to break the shit out of something
16:09 sfan5 it's merely raising the limit at which some function refuses to work
16:09 sfan5 notable the function did not have this limit in 5.4
16:09 erlehmann HuguesRoss the issue is simple, shit was broken when sfan5 limited minetest.get_nodes_in_area() to accept MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT, which is not actually the limit of the map. it lies within the outermost mapblock. so there is currently a shell around the map in which minetest can place nodes, but not find them.
16:10 erlehmann HuguesRoss so with this fix sfan5 raises the limit so that all placed nodes in the outermost mapblock are found
16:10 erlehmann and some other stuff that was weird in that area is also eliminated, since the area where nodes are placed but not found has gone
16:11 erlehmann or at least, if it exists, it does not exist *within* a mapblock that is only partially working rn
16:11 HuguesRoss hm, ok. I'll admit my concerns are probably more applicable to how many systems can potentially interact with map limits, if it's purely for placing/getting nodes it might be safe
16:11 HuguesRoss I'll try to test it later today
16:11 erlehmann oh, it fixes other bugs i have whined about forever too
16:12 erlehmann the fundemental problem is that almost everyone thought that MAX_MAPGEN_LIMIT is actually something that the mapgen adheres to, but it is going over it a bit. so the more code that relied on that, the more code already is buggy.
16:12 erlehmann like mineclonia has a structure that places tnt there. but *if* you place tnt there and manage to explode it, bad things can happen.
16:13 erlehmann so if the pyramid generates at the map border and you trigger it, fun times!
16:13 erlehmann uh-oh. i think tnt also does raycast explosions. :(
16:16 HuguesRoss Yeah, as a modder I've just always acted under the assumption that things will break down if you hit the limits of the map. It's the kind of case that seems easy for folks to overlook
16:16 erlehmann HuguesRoss the thing is, things were actually engineered pretty well until it was broken
16:17 erlehmann the behaviour at the map boundaries is basically “these mapblocks never load”
16:17 sfan5 (they still don't)
16:17 erlehmann only the change to minetest.find_nodes_in_area() with wrong boundaries made it problematic – and i agree with sfan5 that changing the boundaries to lie on a mapblock will prevent most issues there.
16:18 erlehmann sfan5 it is possible to emerge the area and place stuff there and some mod code does it by accident. i do it deliberately in mineclonia and output a warning at server start.
16:18 erlehmann (if minetest fails to find nodes it can place)
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16:26 erlehmann can you please tag #12005 bug bounty?
16:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12005 -- Old maps are upgraded to ZSTD block compression, making it impossible to load the world in 5.4
16:27 erlehmann and yes, the user pain is worth 50€ to me. i haven't spent money on computer games in a while.
16:27 erlehmann and minetest is really fun
16:30 rubenwardy I don't like either of those solutions. Better to have a tool to allow downgrading
16:31 MTDiscord <luatic> rubenwardy: that tool should be included in MT though
16:32 sfan5 rubenwardy: advertising something as a "tool to allow downgrading" will be a failure as people will also expect it to do any potential migrations that games have done
16:32 sfan5 e.g. node aliases
16:33 sfan5 they only sure way to to downgrade a map is to restore from a backup
16:33 sfan5 period
16:56 sfan5 okay so it's actually only #11992 that'll go unsolved
16:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 -- Heap UAF in craft recipes
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17:15 MTDiscord <savilli> i have a very stupid fix for it
17:16 MTDiscord <savilli> replace output.item with craftGetItemName(output.item)
17:16 erlehmann why is this stupid
17:17 erlehmann does it ruin books or enchantments or so?
17:17 erlehmann or banners
17:17 MTDiscord <savilli> it definitely can break smth
17:18 MTDiscord <savilli> and it doesn't actually remove broken pointers from m_output_craft_definitions
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17:19 rubenwardy I dread to think how many memory vulnerabilities that Minetest has
17:20 MTDiscord <savilli> it's not only i caught with asan
17:20 erlehmann rubenwardy it is possible to figure those out largely automatically, given good unit tests. see here for an example: https://mister-muffin.de/p/-J2g.html
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17:20 MTDiscord <savilli> and i ran really huge modpacks
17:20 MTDiscord <savilli> so probably it's not that bad
17:20 erlehmann asan is really good at spitting out very usable things
17:20 erlehmann savilli yeah but have you fuzzed minetest using afl-fuzz?
17:21 erlehmann i have not yet gotten to that, but if i was tasked to exploit minetest, i would fuzz it using afl with a) vanilla compile options b) ubsan c) asan d) msan e) tsan
17:21 erlehmann haven't used cfsan
17:21 MTDiscord <savilli> s/not only/the only
17:23 erlehmann savilli could you detail your test setup a bit more?
17:23 erlehmann maybe make an issue about it
17:23 erlehmann or a blogpost, whatever
17:24 MTDiscord <savilli> 1) build minetest with asan, msan, tsan, etc 2) install a huge modpack aka mineclone5 or pandorabox 3) play a little 4) profit
17:25 erlehmann then you are doing the same as me
17:25 erlehmann also please report the other stuff you found
17:25 MTDiscord <savilli> sure
17:25 MTDiscord <savilli> well i found a lot of memory leaks on shutdown, too lazy to report them :)
17:25 erlehmann oh, that is easily explainable
17:26 erlehmann the leak sanitizer will *only* complain on shutdown
17:26 erlehmann it has very little runtime overhead, but before shutdown, it complains about all leaks it found
17:26 erlehmann that does not mean they only happen on shutdown, lsan is just not as aggressive in crashing your software as asan, ubsan, msan, tsan
17:27 erlehmann to spell it out: most of that are probably real issues
17:27 MTDiscord <savilli> nah, there were literally leaked global objects, like server env, lua env, sun, moon etc
17:27 MTDiscord <savilli> not a big deal
17:29 erlehmann well, i'd say the next level is torturing minetest by means of afl or afl++, are you interested in a collaboration on that?
17:31 MTDiscord <savilli> maybe
17:32 erlehmann i value enthusiastic content, so “maybe” means “no”. :P
17:32 MTDiscord <savilli> i believe you can do it by yourself XD
17:32 erlehmann i am less motivated to do things alone tbh
17:34 erlehmann rubenwardy if you want an intro to finding memory vulnerabilities, i can give you a short demo. the gist of it: instrument your program using afl, then compile it so that asan or msan make it crash on address or memory issues. then throw afl at it and wait. usually a few hours of fuzzing should yield a dozen bugs in the average case, often you get at least 1 crash in the first few minutes.
17:34 rubenwardy I might have a go with that
17:34 rubenwardy but with my personal C++ game
17:34 erlehmann and yes, i am writing this here and not in #minetest because i think *everyone* writing c or c++ should do that
17:35 MTDiscord <savilli> minetest is bad for fuzzing
17:35 erlehmann oh, you can abuse the unit tests (if you have some)
17:35 erlehmann which is why i was upset about removal of irrlichtmt unit tests
17:35 erlehmann i found the b3d crash by means of afl
17:37 erlehmann rubenwardy to quickstart afl, see this: https://github.com/nmoskopp/afl-fuzz-talk – 00-get-afl.sh gets you afl and compiles it (but maybe replace the http with https) – ”10-fuzz.sh ./src/demo-printf.c” starts fuzzing an intentionally buggy program that reads a simple file format and writes found crashes to ./src/demo-printf.d/crashes or so
17:38 erlehmann and by intentionally buggy, i mean: it does something like “printf(buffer);” which is a format string vulnerability and afl finds an input that crashes it
17:47 rubenwardy I think we should push back the release date by a week, we're still fixing fairly big bugs. A week is a small amount of time compared to the 48 weeks since 5.4
17:49 rubenwardy We could start a `dev` branch. That's in our git guidelines, but hasn't really been used yet
17:49 rubenwardy if people want to start 5.6
17:55 sfan5 I don't really agree, you are right the remaining fixes are not small but they are low risk
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18:09 MTDiscord <savilli> actually the only good fix for #11992 is to move crafting system to lua
18:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11992 -- Heap UAF in craft recipes
18:09 MTDiscord <savilli> my server uses the custom one, so i was surprised it even exists in the engine
18:31 Baytuch I added fix for slow machine based ARMv7. Set client_mapblock_limit as 250 blocks. System allocate mem for 350-400 blocks and reset to 250.
18:32 Baytuch https://github.com/baytuch/minetest/commit/e6a60fff169e75e89e7edae57ff8c2a5a094f485
18:34 erlehmann Baytuch please make a pull request on github
18:34 erlehmann very good
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21:08 ROllerozxa So I cleaned ~/.minetest and just realised Minetest doesn't show its logo when installed system-wide. Not a 5.5.0-dev regression, it's like this in 5.4 as well. Is this intentional?
21:14 rubenwardy so the logo where?
21:15 ROllerozxa in the menu outside of the "start game" tab
21:16 rubenwardy the "Minetest" text?
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21:22 ROllerozxa Yeah. So, I used to have remnants of my Windows installation in ~/.minetest, in particular the base texture pack at ~/.minetest/textures/base. While this was in my Minetest home folder, the Minetest logo (menu_header.png) shows up. I decided to remove this since it's unnecessary to be in the home folder, it's installed alongside Minetest in /usr/share/minetest/textures/base/ anyways. But now... The logo is gone! Occurs both on 5.5.0-dev and
21:22 ROllerozxa 5.4.1, and it is still able to load other textures from the base pack, it's just the logo that it doesn't want to load.
21:25 ROllerozxa It is supposed to show up right? Like, on the settings tab the minetest logo should be at the top there.
21:26 sfan5 works for me but I also have RUN_IN_PLACE=1
21:27 ROllerozxa yeah this occurs when installed system-wide, so the base texture pack wouldn't be in the same place as user-installed texture packs
21:27 ROllerozxa super weird, I probably should check if I can get something useful out of the debug logs
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22:04 ROllerozxa found the issue, #12013 fixes it
22:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12013 -- Fix Minetest logo when installed system-wide. by rollerozxa
22:05 ROllerozxa apparently it has been like this for... 8 years? shocking.
22:05 sfan5 I supposed core.get_texturepath() and core.get_texturepath_share() are equivalent for run_in_place?
22:06 ROllerozxa yeah
22:08 ROllerozxa both 'share' and 'user' are . when RUN_IN_PLACE=1, while 'share' is /usr/share/minetest and 'user' is ~/.minetest when RUN_IN_PLACE=0. so it has tried to load it from 'user', which works when RUN_IN_PLACE=1 but not when RUN_IN_PLACE=0
22:09 ROllerozxa so it has worked for portable windows builds and linux binaries people compile themselves that are contained to the source tree, but not for system-installed packages
22:14 sfan5 rubenwardy: at this rate it does indeed look wise to delay the release by half a week
22:14 sfan5 but I don't really want to
22:14 rubenwardy it's annoying to delay even further, but it could be less pain in the long run
22:16 sfan5 depends on what you're referring to
22:16 sfan5 for fixes we can just do a 5.5.1 next week if necessary
22:17 Wuzzy I'm done testing the return values of player functions when called on non-players
22:17 Wuzzy so, most functions return nil
22:18 Wuzzy due to the recent PR, get_player_control and get_player_control_bits also return nil
22:18 sfan5 they return {} and 0 respectively now
22:18 sfan5 did you miss that the issue was already fixes?
22:18 sfan5 fixed*
22:18 Wuzzy surprisingly, get_player_velocity returns {x=0,y=0,z=0}
22:19 erlehmann quick, change it to something that breaks mods
22:19 erlehmann before 5.5
22:19 Wuzzy xd
22:19 erlehmann xxxD
22:20 Wuzzy no, thats a feature request and we're in feature freeze. thi has to way for 5.6
22:20 Wuzzy well, {x=0,y=0,z=0} is *technically* correct i would say. right? 😀
22:20 sfan5 get_player_velocity is an alias of get_velocity
22:20 sfan5 that's why
22:20 erlehmann just do a refucktoring then
22:21 erlehmann and hide it in the PR!
22:21 erlehmann tried and tested method ;)
22:21 Wuzzy i think get_player_velocity can stay
22:22 rubenwardy get_player_velocity is deprecated anyway
22:22 Wuzzy oh right
22:22 Wuzzy forget it then
22:22 rubenwardy I'm unable to clone the Minetest launch pad because they're still using sha1
22:23 Wuzzy what do you think? How difficult it would be to make default privileges revokable?
22:23 sfan5 by the way Wuzzy since we've just had this discussion: is the addition of basic_debug a breaking change?
22:23 sfan5 after all it requires games to make changes to work like before
22:23 sfan5 they're not revokable? that'd be a problem
22:23 Wuzzy i dont really know, but it might make players upset ...
22:24 Wuzzy yeah. /revokeme all in singleplayer, you still have privs left
22:24 Wuzzy i have no idea if this is by design or bug
22:24 sfan5 "in single player the following cannot be revoked: shout" what does that mean?
22:24 rubenwardy OK so this looks like a right pain
22:24 sfan5 I don't think it's about default privs but rather the admin cannot strip himself of privs
22:24 Wuzzy it means that the shout priv is irrevokable
22:24 rubenwardy A MTG mod can just grant on_joinplayer
22:25 sfan5 because you can absolutely forbid people to interact or shout
22:25 rubenwardy er nevermind
22:25 Wuzzy if a priv has give_to_singleplayer=true, then you can not revoke it from singleplayer
22:25 Wuzzy so give_to_singleplayer actually does two things at once: Grant it to singleplayer by default AND make it irrevokable
22:25 Wuzzy (irrevokable to sigleplayer)
22:26 Wuzzy same for give_to_admin, of course
22:26 v-rob joined #minetest-dev
22:27 Wuzzy sfan5: the error message is just a user friendly way to show this limitation. the actual limitation lies in Minetest core, not builtin
22:28 sfan5 okay wait what
22:28 sfan5 are default privileges not a thing?
22:28 Wuzzy what do you mean with "default priv"?
22:28 Wuzzy give_to_singleplayer?
22:28 rubenwardy default-
22:28 sfan5 I would have expected a "give_by_default" in the privilege definition
22:28 rubenwardy default_privs
22:29 sfan5 but turns out this is only controlled by the setting "default_privs"
22:29 Wuzzy wait, what?
22:29 Wuzzy hmmmm let me check something
22:29 sfan5 default_privs provides a way to actually specify defaults for privs
22:30 sfan5 this is impossible in a priv definition which only provides a way to force for SP or the admin
22:30 rubenwardy defaults also only apply on user register
22:30 Wuzzy okay i just tested
22:30 Wuzzy it seems that give_to_singleplayer 100% forces the privs on singleplayer and its impossible to revoke them
22:30 rubenwardy It feels like you need a MTG mod that adds the priv and then uses meta to remember if it was automatically added
22:31 Wuzzy even when default_privs is empty you always get the give_to_singleplayer privs
22:31 rubenwardy so it doesn't readd after revocation
22:31 sfan5 rubenwardy: it doesn't only 'feel' like that, that's the way
22:32 rubenwardy how would an orienteering mod disable this behaviour?
22:32 rubenwardy I guess opt-depend + a method call / variable set
22:32 rubenwardy debug_priv.enabled = false
22:33 Wuzzy so it sems the privileges are litereally impossible to get rid for singleplayer once added with give_to_singleplayer=true
22:33 Wuzzy /revokeme doesn't wor
22:33 Wuzzy not even minetest.set_player_privs("singleplayer", {}) works
22:33 Wuzzy so i guess the engine forces the privilege or something
22:35 Wuzzy sfan5: so the issue is not default_privs. this works fine. the issue is give_to_singleplayer/give_to_admin
22:36 sfan5 rubenwardy: on_joinplayer and revoke it? not ideal to have a mod make these decisions
22:36 Wuzzy i get the rationale that we dont want admin to accidentally revoke server/privs/etc
22:36 Wuzzy maybe make "irrevokability" a separate parameter for privilege definition
22:37 Wuzzy does this make sense?
22:37 sfan5 what is the point of `default_privs` then if you can't influence game/mod choices?
22:38 Wuzzy again: This has NOTHING do do with default_privs
22:38 Wuzzy wait...
22:38 sfan5 these two mechanisms interact so obviously it does
22:38 Wuzzy what are you going to say?
22:38 rubenwardy default_privs doesn't help here, because it only runs on new players
22:38 Wuzzy OH
22:38 Wuzzy right
22:38 Wuzzy omg
22:38 sfan5 "if the game makes the choices for you why do we have a default_privs setting?"
22:39 Wuzzy then my debug approach is basically completely broken...
22:39 Wuzzy there is no way to save it then 🙁
22:39 sfan5 it should have been a hud flag
22:39 Wuzzy yeah, do a full revert. nuke it from orbit 🙁
22:39 erlehmann so back to basics
22:39 sfan5 but I'm pretty this was discussed
22:39 rubenwardy this was discussed before the PR was merged, in length
22:39 Wuzzy yes it was discussed heavily
22:39 erlehmann stuff can have been discussed and important points not be valued enough, happens all the time.
22:39 sfan5 MTG registers two privileges, neither of which are forced on
22:40 Pexin as I recall, the result was simply that different people have different perspectives on what MT is supposed to be
22:40 sfan5 is there actually ANY usecase for forcing privs on?
22:40 Wuzzy are those give_to_singleplayer/give_to_admin?
22:40 sfan5 Wuzzy: that's what I mean by "forced on", both false
22:40 Wuzzy yes if its false then its not forced
22:40 Wuzzy its only forced if true
22:40 sfan5 yes
22:41 erlehmann Pexin the result of the discussion does not matter if players think it sucks.
22:41 Wuzzy regardless of the debug thing, i think the "forced privilege" is a discussion in its own right...
22:41 Wuzzy it always stuck me as very weird to have some privileges impossible to revoke
22:41 Wuzzy well for admin you kinda sorta can argue it sucks when you accidentally "lock yourself out" or whatever ... hmmm
22:42 sfan5 >“Why not using HUD flags?”. HUD flags are controlled by mods. This implies that mods can screw around with the debug info at will. All it takes is one poorly-coded mod to strip away the extended debug info from the admin, which is not fun to track down. Privileges, by comparison, are much more reliable and predictable and there are no ugly
22:42 sfan5 surprises.
22:42 sfan5 🤔
22:42 Wuzzy My mistake was that I have completely not taken default_privs into account ... argh
22:42 Wuzzy default_privs ruins everything
22:43 erlehmann sfan5 what does that mean for the use case of “as soon as one uses mcl_maps players should have a motivation to make maps for orientation and i want a mod to remove their access to coordinates”, how do you envision that to be implemented?
22:43 sfan5 "Mods should have NO business in touching the debug info at all. Debug info must work without mods, it's a very essential feature. " so rubenwardy's question of what an orienteering mod would do is just the wrong question
22:43 Wuzzy so basically no way how I try to "tweak" my PR, all players on old servers will not get the basic_privs unless the server admin MANUALLY adds it
22:43 sfan5 erlehmann: you should ask Wuzzy because that's his text :)
22:43 rubenwardy A mod like orienteering breaks if debug info is enabled by a MTG mod
22:43 Wuzzy yeah, that was always my concern
22:43 Wuzzy that was the whole reason
22:44 Wuzzy my goal is to separate debug info from gameplay info
22:44 sfan5 but in your PR description you argued that mods shouldn't touch the debug info priv
22:44 sfan5 this is a fundamental conflict
22:44 erlehmann the debug screen contains too little info tbh, there could also be light level of pointed node and node meta
22:44 Wuzzy in the perfect world, games/minetest would have exposed stuff like coordinates in a "clean" way (no ugly debug screen)
22:44 sfan5 I mean it got approved and merged
22:44 sfan5 but still ???
22:45 Wuzzy lol erlehmann. node meta can get out of hand fast
22:45 Wuzzy is there a size limit for node meta?
22:45 sfan5 not really
22:45 Wuzzy then not really a good idea to show the node meta in debug 😀
22:45 erlehmann if anyone introduces one you are going to make a lot of people with chests full of books very angry
22:46 Wuzzy unless its really simple like "empty/not empty"
22:46 erlehmann or chests full of shulkers full of shulkers full of shulkers
22:46 Pexin crated digtrons
22:46 Wuzzy yeah, an "advanced debug screen" would be very useful
22:46 sfan5 rubenwardy: I think an orienteering mod can do basically two things: 1) ask the server admin to adjust default privs and everything 2) just go and revoke the priv itself
22:46 rubenwardy https://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2021-06-21#i_5836890
22:46 rubenwardy here's the very very long discussion we had
22:47 Wuzzy so at this stage it's obviously too late to make a better debug screen for 5.5, so the only way forward is nuking it
22:47 Wuzzy i mean the PR, not the debug screen!!!
22:48 sfan5 so was the 5.4 <-> 5.5 thing solved?
22:48 sfan5 who even approved the PR
22:48 Wuzzy One idea I had for a better coordiante display would be something like a "coordinate key". it would replace F5 and the debug screen moves to a different key, basically
22:48 sfan5 couldn've been me
22:49 Wuzzy the #1 reason why all players use F5 is because of coords
22:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
22:49 sfan5 it was c55 and ruben
22:49 rubenwardy If you connect to a 5.5 server with a 5.4 client, it pretends you have debug_basic
22:49 sfan5 well that's good
22:49 Wuzzy oh
22:49 Wuzzy that still doesnt fix default_privs tho
22:50 Wuzzy if a 5.5 player that already registered years ago joins, no basic_debug
22:50 sfan5 fixable
22:50 Wuzzy how?
22:50 rubenwardy wait, otherway around
22:50 rubenwardy If you connect to a 5.4 server with a 5.5 client, it pretends you have debug_basic
22:51 Wuzzy yes this makes sense
22:51 sfan5 minetest.register_on_joinplayer(function(player) if player:get_meta():get("foo") == "" then minetest.grant_privilege(player:get_player_name(), "basic_debug"); player:get_meta():set("foo", 1) end end)
22:51 sfan5 that's how
22:51 Wuzzy 🙁
22:51 Wuzzy that's a mod
22:51 sfan5 ofc
22:51 Wuzzy meaning that server operators have to do something
22:51 sfan5 we'd put that into MTG
22:51 Wuzzy therefore it will never happen
22:51 Wuzzy server operator can be slow to change :/
22:52 sfan5 if they upgrade to 5.5 they will also upgrade MTG
22:52 Wuzzy unless you suggest to put this code in builtin 😆
22:52 sfan5 and if not then there's no issue with 5.4
22:53 Wuzzy not every server is MTG
22:53 sfan5 well idk
22:53 Wuzzy sorry i believe this is a case of "back to the drawing board". just nuke my basic_debug PR
22:53 sfan5 you got your breaking change PR merged 6 months ago
22:53 sfan5 and apparently only now realize it's a problem
22:54 Wuzzy yes but BEFORE release
22:54 Wuzzy its not entirely true, i always thought about it... it was a splinter in my mind ... but had no idea what to do
22:54 Pexin I can verify several people were unhappy, but the devs had Spoken
22:54 Wuzzy the final word has not been spoken
22:55 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It's a reasonable change
22:55 sfan5 I knew about the basic_debug thing before and made a mental note to add it as a default priv in MTG
22:55 sfan5 but the concept being totally broken is new to me
22:55 sfan5 would've been useful to know earlier
22:55 Wuzzy I KNOW 🙁
22:56 rubenwardy I find it funny how adament you were when we suggested alternatives that let it remain on by default, insisting that it shouldn't be available by default
22:56 rubenwardy and then changing your mind 1 day before a planned release
22:56 MTDiscord <MisterE> just put basic_debug in the list of default privs...
22:57 Wuzzy well that'S the thing...
22:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> in MT.conf
22:57 rubenwardy MisterE: won't work, default_privs only grants to _new_ players
22:57 Wuzzy that won't really work
22:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> yeah ok
22:57 Wuzzy It's not just "changing my mind" it's realizing there was a fatal flaw in the logic
22:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> Well I went and added that code to grant the priv to everyone in a server-special mod
22:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> logic dies
22:58 Wuzzy I thought that it would be posible for servers to somehow magically react to the change to make it work again
22:58 Wuzzy but I did not actually TEST this... haha. that's the reason
22:58 Wuzzy so yeah, lesson learned, don't make claims that something works if not tested 😉
22:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> ... Im not following
22:59 rubenwardy test what?
22:59 rubenwardy The two solutions I see are:
22:59 rubenwardy 1. Add a mod to MTG to grant to players
22:59 rubenwardy 2. Revert the PR, make a replacement for 5.6
22:59 Wuzzy I believed that servers could automagically grant the basic_debug by default by a simple parameter like default_privs
22:59 Wuzzy but i didn't realize it was for NEW players only, this ruins everything
23:00 Wuzzy why is everyone so obsessed with MTG? lol not every server is MTg
23:00 Wuzzy do solution 2: Nuke it from orbit, its complete trash, sorry
23:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> just FYI, most server owners will not update MTG with the server. Most servers are heavily modified, and will implement any necassary fixes themselves, I think. Anyhow thats what I did when I started running 5.5dev
23:01 Pexin such an autogrant mod, would track whether it has run for each player? so it can be revoked and stay revoked? either way seems a little messy
23:01 MTDiscord <MisterE> nonono... Just add a mod on cdb that grants the priv by defalut! dont revert the PR!
23:02 MTDiscord <MisterE> Its a really good idea to have basic_debug un-accessable
23:02 Pexin MisterE: that still relies on server owners paying attention
23:03 sfan5 Pexin: it would
23:03 MTDiscord <MisterE> Pexin, They will pay attn when their players start complaining, like mine did. Then they will make the decision to add the mod or to leave as-is and not allow the debug info
23:03 MTDiscord <MisterE> which, should be a decision the server owners should make
23:03 sfan5 dealing with this in MTG is no problem at all (even though it's a bit messy)
23:03 Pexin someone said possibly put it in builtin?
23:04 sfan5 the question is just: is it okay that other games will have to apply changes if they want to preserve coordinates?
23:04 Wuzzy how about this: auto-grant the priv via builtin? would this work? games can later manually revoke it
23:04 MTDiscord <MisterE> debug info can be considered a "cheat".
23:04 MTDiscord <MisterE> no
23:04 sfan5 and actually I think this is salvageable
23:04 sfan5 consider the many game jam games, none of them will want coords shown
23:04 MTDiscord <MisterE> builtin is for code that is applicable to all games
23:04 MTDiscord <MisterE> yes
23:04 sfan5 the games that do can just grant the priv
23:05 MTDiscord <MisterE> completely agree
23:05 sfan5 it *is* messy because it's not a hud flag
23:05 sfan5 and it *is* a breaking change
23:05 Wuzzy nuke it then
23:05 sfan5 no, it does the job
23:05 MTDiscord <MisterE> stop with the nuclear option!
23:05 Pexin sfan5:  wouldnt those games just deny the F5 menu completely?
23:05 Wuzzy F5 still works, it just shows less info by default (like FPS)
23:06 asdflkj_sh joined #minetest-dev
23:06 erlehmann <rubenwardy> 1. Add a mod to MTG to grant to players
23:06 erlehmann this does not salvage non-mtg games, just to point it out
23:06 MTDiscord <MisterE> this is an improvement to the engine, leave it be! Debug should be a priv, and it makes a lot of sense to not grant it by default. Games should have the option but not the default value of allowing in for all players
23:06 Wuzzy I really don't like the MTG-only solution. this is a massive hack
23:06 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Built-in is overridable
23:07 MTDiscord <MisterE> most games do not want the debug
23:07 Pexin most players do
23:07 MTDiscord <MisterE> debug is for... debugging
23:07 Wuzzy heh we could just call the next version 6.0.0 so everything is allowed 😛
23:07 erlehmann this ties greatly into the amazing map incompatibility! not only does mineclone5 no longer have reliable maps due to API change, players can not work around that using debug priv due to another API change!
23:07 Wuzzy wait, map incompability? one more argument for 6.0.0 instead of 5.5.0 😆
23:07 erlehmann Wuzzy mcl_maps
23:08 sfan5 Wuzzy: you can'tz
23:08 erlehmann i sent it to you in jabber
23:08 erlehmann the dynamic media thing
23:08 erlehmann where the api changed twice
23:08 MTDiscord <MisterE> Pexin, yes, but then they may play on servers which allow it, or they may play singleplayer. never should what players want come before what game designers want, in the context of said games. The players have the option to try to influence the dev of said games tho
23:08 Wuzzy MAP_LIMIT?
23:08 sfan5 Wuzzy: you can't trust a word erlehmann says, he will omit or misrepresent facts whenever it serves him
23:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^
23:09 Wuzzy i am not interested in personal drama, please ...
23:09 Wuzzy stick to the fact
23:09 sfan5 well he isn't doing that
23:09 sfan5 that's not personal drama
23:09 Wuzzy i'm not interested in normal drama either. just facts plz 😀
23:09 erlehmann Wuzzy, mcl_maps does not work on 5.5. it is a maps mod. leave aside why. but debug does not give coords on 5.5.
23:09 sfan5 erlehmann raised an issue for an API that had changed after an ~1 year deprecation period
23:09 MTDiscord <MisterE> thats silly, erlehmann, mineclone can and should grant the basic_debug priv by defalut, if that is what they want to do
23:09 erlehmann i was trying to make fun of the issue
23:10 sfan5 he calls this an "incompatbility"
23:10 erlehmann it's about this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/119971
23:10 erlehmann can we go back to privileges please?
23:10 sfan5 which is not technically incorrect but perfectly fine by Minetest standards specifically because there was a deprecation period
23:10 erlehmann it has been discussed to death
23:10 sfan5 erlehmann: guess who brought it up
23:11 erlehmann look, i think it is the stupidest API change i have ever seen in the last 10 years or so and wanted to make fun of it.
23:11 Wuzzy 1 year deprecation is a long time. its ok
23:11 MTDiscord <MisterE> so, please leave the basic_debug as is
23:11 erlehmann i'll stop making fun
23:11 MTDiscord <MisterE> its an annoying but necassary change
23:11 erlehmann back to the debug thing, will i be reverted or not?
23:11 sfan5 for "making fun of things" instead of constructive talking go to #minetest
23:11 erlehmann ok
23:11 MTDiscord <exe_virus> So what is the broken part of basic_debug?
23:12 MTDiscord <MisterE> erl... only you can answer this question
23:12 erlehmann MisterE what question?
23:12 sfan5 games have to take action to preserve old behaviour
23:12 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Gotcha
23:12 sfan5 or in other words a breaking change
23:12 Wuzzy its not exactly broken its more like... disruptive when players upgrade to 5.5.0
23:12 MTDiscord <exe_virus> But it doesn't break games?
23:12 v-rob joined #minetest-dev
23:12 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It's a minor inconvenience
23:12 MTDiscord <Jonathon> moveresult broke old mods, big deal
23:12 sfan5 the argument was that debug info is not part of a game
23:12 MTDiscord <MisterE> yes, but it is not a large burden. its a few lines of code
23:12 sfan5 or something like that
23:12 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Like, it doesn't cause games to crash or anything
23:12 erlehmann sfan5 but turns out it is
23:12 erlehmann like people expect it
23:13 erlehmann has been there for a while etc. pp.
23:13 sfan5 also the second issue with basic_debug is that it's messy if a mod wants to ensure that debug info is visible / not visible
23:13 erlehmann only this time actual users can not do much about it than stay on 5.4
23:13 Wuzzy hmm so if i get this right you are now proposing that EVERY game adds boilerplate code? heh
23:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Sure, but they can learn new behavior, and server owners can make the old default the new defulat
23:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> No, I won't need it for most games I make
23:13 MTDiscord <MisterE> no, only the few games that actually want the basic_debug
23:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Just Mt and MCL, nodecore doesn't care
23:14 Pexin few?
23:14 HuguesRoss Not to interrupt this spirited debate, but are there any objections to merging #11699 ?
23:14 HuguesRoss I'll do it in 15 otherwise
23:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11699 -- Disable dynamic shadows for 5.5.0 release by SmallJoker
23:14 MTDiscord <MisterE> ^MTG, mineclone
23:14 Wuzzy the reason why I made it a priv was because I actully wanted to have a more "clean" way to expose coords to players, completely indepentend from debug screen
23:14 Pexin most server owners wont care, and players will suffer
23:14 rubenwardy HuguesRoss: go ahead
23:14 Wuzzy like with hud_add or even a "coordinate key"
23:14 MTDiscord <MisterE> Ill object, if no one else wants to
23:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Lol, no feel free to keep shadows off by default, but enable-able
23:15 sfan5 Pexin: are there server owners who will update to 5.5 but not maintain their game?
23:15 Wuzzy yes
23:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That's on them?
23:15 Wuzzy absolutely
23:15 erlehmann MisterE object to what?
23:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> How many Mt servers are there? 25?
23:15 Wuzzy hundreds
23:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That actually have players
23:15 Pexin sfan5: hmmm..
23:15 erlehmann ; minetest-servers name |wc -l
23:15 erlehmann 346
23:16 sfan5 like 50 with active players roughly
23:16 Wuzzy yes, exactly 50 right now
23:16 sfan5 that is without subtracting multicraft
23:16 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Of those, how many will care and not be able to deal with the change? 4?
23:16 sfan5 or 0.4
23:16 MTDiscord <MisterE> HuguesRoss: to be clear, does this PR allow you to toggle on shadows with an advanced setting?
23:16 Wuzzy oh wait its a bit ore than 50 but whateveer
23:16 sfan5 @MisterE it does not
23:17 MTDiscord <MisterE> then ir seriousness, I kinda object
23:17 MTDiscord <MisterE> *In
23:17 MTDiscord <exe_virus> So just a straight up, rip it out? At least let players experiment with it
23:17 erlehmann ; minetest-servers clients |cut -f2 |grep -v '^0$' |wc -l
23:17 erlehmann 104
23:17 Wuzzy dumb question: will auto-granting basic_debug in builtin work?
23:17 erlehmann currently 104 servers have at least 1 client
23:17 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Yep, and then games can override that behavior
23:17 MTDiscord <MisterE> yes, I really think that you should be allowed to test the shadows with an advanced setting
23:17 sfan5 we've had this already, players can experiment with a dev build
23:17 sfan5 it absolutely must be disabled in the release
23:17 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Oh, it breaks things?
23:18 HuguesRoss @exe_virus I believe the intent is to rip it out and re-enable it immediately after release
23:18 sfan5 yes, it will be
23:18 Wuzzy this is also an option
23:18 erlehmann you have to actually double the number of servers probably
23:18 Wuzzy nuke then rebuild from the ashes 😆
23:18 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Players don't have the ability to run Dev builds. Like less than 10% haha
23:18 erlehmann about half the servers i play on are not in the public server list
23:18 MTDiscord <MisterE> if you want to explain why it absolutely must be completely disabled in the release, im interested... if not, proceed
23:18 sfan5 I feel sorry for whoever has to read the logs of today
23:19 sfan5 @MisterE the gist is games have no control over users enabling it, ruining the art direction of games
23:19 sfan5 for details look for hecktest's issue
23:19 HuguesRoss #11365 to be precise, there's been a lot of back-and-forth
23:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11365 -- Shadowmaps cannot be disabled by the server
23:19 MTDiscord <MisterE> I have read that in detail. THat does not give a reason why it should not be in the advanced settings
23:20 MTDiscord <MisterE> imo
23:20 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Wait, that's why? I can override art with texture packs already
23:20 Pexin personally, i'm more concerned about whether performance is impacted even when disabled in menu. is this still the case?
23:20 Wuzzy tbh shadowmaps isn't the core of the problems actually. the core is poor usability overall. settings are such a mess
23:20 sfan5 don't think so
23:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> I mean, 3d mode is/was broken, and also completely ruins the experience for many of the settings. YOu can enable 3d mode in advanced settings, and it will break every game you try to play. And its on you.
23:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> *settings -> i meant games
23:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> same with shadows
23:21 Wuzzy is it marked as experimental at least? then it should be fine, right?
23:21 sfan5 past mistakes, future mistakes etc. honestly this is a done deal
23:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> yeah
23:22 sfan5 there are more important issues to be discussed
23:22 Pexin wasnt 3d mode fixed?
23:22 sfan5 it was
23:22 erlehmann shadows occur in the end in mcl* mods and it sucks
23:22 erlehmann MisterE that argument shoud be enough
23:23 erlehmann sunless sky, deep underground, still you get shadows
23:23 erlehmann understand?
23:23 MTDiscord <MisterE> sfan5: could you at least make a build for windows, debian, and ubuntu that has shadows enableable, but is otherwise 5.5? That would be greatly appreciated I think
23:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> thats literally against the point of disabling them
23:24 sfan5 you can download all of those from a gitlab pipeline as soon as the change is reverted for 5.6 :)
23:24 MTDiscord <MisterE> eal: yes I completely understand. And if someone had to go digging thru the settings enable shadows, then they can go dig thru the settings to disable them again too when they realize that their personal choice has broken their experience
23:25 erlehmann hey hey rubenwardy ar shadows in ctf cheating?
23:25 Wuzzy so what's the stance on basic_debug now? nuke? try to make a workaround? do nothing?
23:25 erlehmann after all you can basically see around corners with them
23:25 erlehmann nuke nuke nuke nuke
23:25 sfan5 Wuzzy: nothing yet, more opinions needed
23:26 MTDiscord <luatic> why should basic_debug be nuked?
23:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> im wondering at what point does erlehmann get muted again
23:26 MTDiscord <luatic> because it removes coords?
23:26 sfan5 I'll post in the issue and try to summarize it
23:27 MTDiscord <MisterE> sfan5, could you make the pipelines more official? Ι tried to show that to someone as a way to try out the latest version, and they doubted that is was safe
23:28 sfan5 dunno how we'd go about that
23:28 Pexin fwiw, I rely on F5 to know what node I'm pointed at a lot
23:28 sfan5 I believe https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest is mentioned as our official mirror somewhere
23:29 MTDiscord <MisterE> sfan5 like a link on the minetest website that has a download button for the latest dev build. Plenty of FOSS programs do this, like gimp, blender, etc
23:30 sfan5 hm
23:32 MTDiscord <MisterE> a benefit is that more people will try out the latest so you will catch bugs faster
23:33 MTDiscord <MisterE> anyhow, for the record, I dont like shadows being completely disabled for 5.5, and I dont want the basic_debug changed, and now go ahead and do those things if you want cause, really, its not all that important
23:41 Wuzzy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12014
23:42 Wuzzy #12014
23:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12014 -- Update builtin translation by Wuzzy2
23:42 Wuzzy (I assume we're in string freeze)
23:43 sfan5 basically
23:47 erlehmann HuguesRoss https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866#issuecomment-1025007529
23:53 sfan5 Krock HuguesRoss opinions wanted -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12011#issuecomment-1025009227
23:54 sfan5 ~tell v-rob opinions wanted -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12011#issuecomment-1025009227
23:54 ShadowBot sfan5: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
23:54 sfan5 thanks for nothing, ShadowBot
23:54 sfan5 ^ @luatic here's what was being discussed anyway
23:56 MTDiscord <luatic> thanks
23:57 erlehmann sfan5 this commit seems to be entirely unrelated to the PR it is in. any reason it's there? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11866/commits/197c40ca86fc1a73c3f1bcdf37f5518ec8c95e39
23:57 sfan5 convenience
23:58 erlehmann well i hope you do not squash this
23:58 sfan5 I hope so too
23:59 erlehmann i do not wish to go into it much rn, but i have actually had a fair bit of problems in other projects with topical branches containing cleanup work. it makes porting changes a bit difficult.
23:59 erlehmann i can talk about this later, if you want to, it's … uh … unpleasant.

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