| Time |
Nick |
Message |
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| 06:25 |
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| 06:38 |
erlehmann |
i really don't get why you don't add in the previous support and then discuss the replacement https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11611 |
| 06:39 |
erlehmann |
nearly every project i know that ripped out stuff and THEN discusses replacement did never get around to providing a sufficient replacement |
| 06:42 |
erlehmann |
you can see this with systemd btw |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy, while you can still have pixel fonts with ttf, it is quite difficult to make sure they are crisp on every configuration |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy in fact, whenever i switch resolutions (i.e. get a new display), i have to figure out which combination of resolution and fontsize make it so that no antialiasing is happening. i have not yet found a way to automate that – disabling antialiasing at the wrong combination of resolution & fontsize will just result in an ugly mess. |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
(i use GNU unifont in almost all applications) |
| 06:47 |
erlehmann |
i am trying to get an ancient github account back |
| 06:47 |
erlehmann |
i hate github, it is among the worst platforms for this (it was one of the best once, but ie and chrome were once the best browsers, amigaOS was once the best OS, you get it) |
| 06:57 |
erlehmann |
got it |
| 07:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> what do bitmap fonts do that ttf fonts can't do, practically speaking? |
| 07:14 |
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| 07:21 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank from a user side: guaranteed crisp font display with predictable character widths (not necessarily monospace). from an artist/developer side: extremely simple to modify, as they often are loaded by a program in a form in which they can be edited with a text editor and/or a program as simple as bitmap(1) or ms paint. |
| 07:22 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank then there are the performance benefits of not having so much bloat, but i am not sure if the slowness that Desour noticed and i reproduced has anything to do with it. |
| 07:23 |
erlehmann |
disclaimer: i have made glyphs for a pixel font, modified a pixel font, implemented naive rendering code for a pixel font in some other project, and tried to generate TTFs myself and failed at it |
| 07:24 |
erlehmann |
but i am by no means an expert – so if anyone else has done similar or ideally more work in that space, i'd love to know their opinion on it |
| 07:27 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank from a rendering perspective, ttf provides a lot more features, but all of those make editing more cumbersome and can make rendering less predictable. for example, true type hinting distorts the glyphs so that the rasterizer produces less ugly output. this is very user-friendly, but also requires a lot of developer work. |
| 07:29 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank maybe it is easier to consider these things if you approach the problem from a “does this make it more likely that people will convert or modify or create a font for use in minetest” point of view |
| 07:29 |
erlehmann |
i.e. a custom format that *did not* exist before makes it less likely than one that did exist before, a more complex format makes it dependent on the tooling if people do it |
| 07:29 |
erlehmann |
granted, there is no lack of fonts right now |
| 07:30 |
erlehmann |
but that's how i approach it |
| 07:30 |
erlehmann |
i shall add that thought to the issue |
| 07:32 |
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| 07:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> well I can agree to the fact bitmap fonts are easier to make, I made a bitmap number font for a löve game like two days ago |
| 07:46 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank and would you have any idea how to create a TTF from it without help? |
| 07:47 |
erlehmann |
(by which i mean a working version, just saying “i'd probably use fontforge” doesn't cut it) |
| 07:48 |
erlehmann |
i mean … i'd probably use fontforge. ;) |
| 07:48 |
erlehmann |
(but i have no idea what to do after starting it hehe) |
| 07:50 |
erlehmann |
btw, part of the discussion reminds me of the “but you can also use BMP instead of TGA” argument, which was probably only made by ppl who never had a real need to choose between implementing writers for those formats. |
| 07:50 |
erlehmann |
i.e. it makes sense until you get into the specifics |
| 07:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> I'd have absolutely no idea how to turn it into a TTF, other than "something something fontforge" lol |
| 07:51 |
erlehmann |
see |
| 07:51 |
erlehmann |
and you and me are devs, we know probably more about it than some random kid with paint 3d |
| 07:52 |
erlehmann |
(yes, texture packs and the like are made by random kids. i know of mods created in windows notepad using just the rubenwardy book.) |
| 07:53 |
erlehmann |
(they are not necessarily on contentdb, ppl do it for their friends. a dev will probably never see any of that.) |
| 08:06 |
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| 08:50 |
erlehmann |
i created an issue for the TGA thing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11613 |
| 08:50 |
erlehmann |
(i found none and wanted to summarize the story so far) |
| 08:59 |
sfan5 |
"Criticism [...] that they rely on TGA support was initially brushed aside due to lack of understanding by Minetest engine developers" |
| 08:59 |
sfan5 |
always our faults eh |
| 09:00 |
sfan5 |
how about you chalk that up to MCL devs not properly explaining that they need TGA loaded in existing worlds |
| 09:04 |
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| 09:05 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 well it is true, they did not explain it, i can add that. |
| 09:06 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, i mean “no one knew how this was used” was true or not? |
| 09:06 |
erlehmann |
(on the engine side) |
| 09:07 |
sfan5 |
do you mean "no one knew that anyone uses TGA" or "no one knew how MCL uses TGA" |
| 09:07 |
sfan5 |
both are true anyway |
| 09:07 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, i added “(MineClone* developers did not explain that in detail)” |
| 09:07 |
erlehmann |
is that enough? |
| 09:07 |
sfan5 |
sure |
| 09:08 |
sfan5 |
not like that detail of the story matters, I just wanted to point out that blaming the coredevs is too easy |
| 09:08 |
erlehmann |
i mean it is obvious to anyone who has played mineclone2 or mineclone5 this year, but i already told you that some of them think minetest enigne devs are idiots, which mostly means that they do the minimal work in interacting |
| 09:08 |
erlehmann |
not sure if those who spoke up think that though |
| 09:08 |
erlehmann |
they would not admit it anyway ;) |
| 09:08 |
erlehmann |
they are hard to work with |
| 09:10 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 i think details matter for the future: minetest engine devs will probably not research stuff if someone yells “this breaks my use case” and does not explain it in-depth |
| 09:10 |
erlehmann |
do you agree with that? |
| 09:10 |
erlehmann |
i mean especially bc you were quick to point out there is an alternative |
| 09:11 |
erlehmann |
(even though BMP and PNG both do not solve that problem, there are others that could have been solved, maybe) |
| 09:13 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, is anything missing on that issue i should add? do you feel anything else is wrongly represented? |
| 09:14 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 09:15 |
erlehmann |
btw, i do agree with the sentiment often repeated on the forums that core devs seem at times out of touch with the minetest game devs / mod devs / server admins. however, most of the “evidence” forum users present is “paramat or sfan5 shot down my totally stupid proposal that would have hilariously bad consequences for speed / compatibility / gameplay / development of mods”, so while i have my own r |
| 09:15 |
erlehmann |
easons, i think it makes total sense to not take most of that feedback seriously. |
| 09:16 |
erlehmann |
like, sending the server what platform is used, lol |
| 09:16 |
erlehmann |
what do they wanna do with it, make a mod display “this server is not for mobile users”? |
| 09:27 |
erlehmann |
i read https://github.com/minetest/minetest/security/policy – i was told to create issues for the security vulnerabilities i found (UB is always a security issue), so i will file them publicly |
| 09:28 |
erlehmann |
if i misunderstood this, tell me please |
| 09:31 |
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| 09:41 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 celeron55 rubenwardy this is not a good issue, but is it a good start? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11614 |
| 10:17 |
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| 11:58 |
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| 12:04 |
pgimeno |
why has the irrlichtmt repository not been renamed yet? |
| 12:07 |
erlehmann |
if you rename it, will it break links to existing issues there? will it break “git pull”? |
| 12:07 |
erlehmann |
i hope not |
| 12:07 |
erlehmann |
i verified the TGA thing as good as i could btw https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11598 |
| 12:07 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/vrld/Quickie example of renamed repository |
| 12:08 |
erlehmann |
ah |
| 12:08 |
erlehmann |
1. can be cloned with original name |
| 12:09 |
erlehmann |
2. https://github.com/vrld/Quickie/issues/86 is redirected |
| 12:09 |
erlehmann |
3. https://github.com/vrld/Quickie/issues/86#issue-988269356 is redirected |
| 12:10 |
erlehmann |
i guess renaming is not a big problem then but why |
| 12:10 |
erlehmann |
do it |
| 12:10 |
erlehmann |
? |
| 12:11 |
erlehmann |
what is the new name anyway |
| 12:17 |
pgimeno |
irrlichtmt is what the repo title says |
| 12:18 |
pgimeno |
when cloning inside minetest/lib, currently you have to be careful to specify irrlichtmt as the destination |
| 12:19 |
pgimeno |
if renamed, that would not be a problem; also that repository no longer contains Irrlicht, and that might be a misrepresentation of the brand |
| 12:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> github has redirection in place for renamed repos, if you rename it to minetest/irrlichtmt there will be a redirect irrlicht -> irrlichtmt if you pull with the old remote |
| 13:23 |
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| 13:24 |
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| 13:24 |
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| 13:55 |
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| 14:25 |
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| 14:32 |
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| 14:59 |
sfan5 |
pgimeno: you had a PR to allow text output for /help again, right? where was that? |
| 15:02 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: well given it's inside irrlicht I think you filed that on the wrong repo |
| 15:02 |
sfan5 |
(don't bother closing, we can transfer it) |
| 15:03 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 damn :/ |
| 15:03 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 but is it ok to file this publicly? you literally told me right after that trace to file issues |
| 15:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> sfan5 re #11600 I'm going to need some guidance on manually building zstd from source for multi arch |
| 15:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11600 -- Possibility of an "early" 5.5 release |
| 15:06 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Function move_for_backend in terminal_chat_console.cpp calls a move function on line 59. Someone on Discord has reported a case of the function being undeclared at compile time. Is this the curses function for moving the cursor, perhaps? Or what should I do to find out what's going on? I grepped for "* move(int*" in the whole project and didn't find anything, so I'm thinking it's a library function. |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
@Jordach sure, what did you try so far? |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> the more laughable question is it's only makefiles |
| 15:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> and they haven't documented the cmake lists |
| 15:09 |
sfan5 |
@josiah_wi /usr/include/ncurses.h:extern NCURSES_EXPORT(int) move (int, int);/* generated */ |
| 15:09 |
sfan5 |
I used cmake for zstd on windows and it worked fine |
| 15:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> sooner or later macOS builds from me will likely be signed entirely with my developer license |
| 15:10 |
erlehmann |
Jordach do you have a script on how to build thm |
| 15:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i just need to build the static library as per usual |
| 15:10 |
erlehmann |
on macoss |
| 15:10 |
erlehmann |
like for brew |
| 15:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> brew is prebuilt |
| 15:10 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> sfan5, do you have any idea why ncurses.h would fail to be included? |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> that said |
| 15:11 |
sfan5 |
I haven't even looked at the .cpp file you mentioned, so no |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i'd argue it's not 5.5 we should be releasing |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> but more 6.0 |
| 15:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> we added a new major dependancy - chopped up irrlicht further |
| 15:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> inbetween releases we've done more or less a huge amount of work that somehow is larger than the previous 5.x and even 4.x releases |
| 15:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i'm still working on the experimental hours of the day blending |
| 15:12 |
sfan5 |
I get what you mean but the version numbers don't signify progress but compatibility |
| 15:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> while zstd is backwards compatible |
| 15:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> it won't be that way forever |
| 15:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> lest it becomes permanent and we become dependant on supporting ancient ass versions for no reason |
| 15:13 |
erlehmann |
look a major update implies a backwards incompatibility |
| 15:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i prefer the term, slightly incompatible |
| 15:13 |
erlehmann |
Jordach are you one of the clowns who wants me to no longer run minetest? |
| 15:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> no |
| 15:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> fuck sakes i'm bending over backwards to ensure 2008 macs can still run MT with Core 2 Duos |
| 15:14 |
erlehmann |
well if hecktest get its wishes, soon minetest will not be able to run on whatever hecks makes up is “obsolete” and no longer used. |
| 15:15 |
erlehmann |
network protocol interop is the only thing that will let players play then |
| 15:15 |
erlehmann |
if they are on these machines |
| 15:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i should mention that mavericks practically supports every intel mac |
| 15:15 |
erlehmann |
i have no idea of os x sorry |
| 15:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> since 2006 at minimum |
| 15:16 |
erlehmann |
i only know that new OS X turned some machines from 2013 from a specific run into paperweights |
| 15:16 |
erlehmann |
and also i had to use os x some while back … is it still that bad? |
| 15:16 |
erlehmann |
or has it improved, like linux desktop improved 15 years ago or so in short time? |
| 15:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> osx isn't bad if you've already used linux in some capacity |
| 15:17 |
pgimeno |
sfan5: https://codeberg.org/pgimeno/minetest/pulls/1 |
| 15:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> just note that osx uses bsd'isms rather than linux'isms |
| 15:18 |
erlehmann |
nah i mean rather stuff like “can't easily tell a window to stay above others”. but this discussion does not belong here, how can i contact you otherwise? |
| 15:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> i'm not sure if the machine hosting my lounge instance is alive |
| 15:19 |
erlehmann |
pgimeno wow cool |
| 15:19 |
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| 15:21 |
sfan5 |
pgimeno: our CI has some complaints https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/runs/3588789880 |
| 15:21 |
sfan5 |
(I adopted the PR on Github because I remembered today that I wanted this feature) |
| 15:22 |
sfan5 |
ah wait logged out users can't see CI results, that's awful from github |
| 15:22 |
pgimeno |
I'll try rebasing |
| 15:22 |
sfan5 |
https://a.uguu.se/tyT0tNzfUpEU_.txt |
| 15:23 |
pgimeno |
oh my did I make that rookie mistake? |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
if you rebase it squashing it all into one commit would also be helpful |
| 15:29 |
pgimeno |
sfan5: rebased and pushed |
| 15:29 |
pgimeno |
(and squashed) |
| 15:30 |
sfan5 |
I don't see it |
| 15:30 |
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| 15:30 |
pgimeno |
oh right, I pushed to notabug, not to codeberg, one sec |
| 15:32 |
pgimeno |
done |
| 15:32 |
pgimeno |
https://codeberg.org/pgimeno/minetest/src/branch/pg-help-text-option |
| 15:34 |
erlehmann |
what is codeberg? |
| 15:34 |
pgimeno |
a Gitea instance for free software, kinda like Savannah etc but with Gitea |
| 15:35 |
pgimeno |
same as notabug which I also used, but notabug has stayed on gogs and has not updated to gitea, which is more complete |
| 15:36 |
erlehmann |
nice |
| 15:37 |
pgimeno |
(gogs is itself an attempt to clone GitHub's interface, and Gitea is a fork because gogs progressed too slowly) |
| 15:40 |
dzho |
for what it's worth, github didn't invent web interfaces to git hosting |
| 15:41 |
dzho |
it might be more of a quibble to point out elsewhere but when talking about procedurally-generated block sandbox gaming it might land a little differently. |
| 15:41 |
dzho |
(which is to say, minecraft didn't invent the genre so minetest isn't just "an attempt to clone" it) |
| 15:44 |
dzho |
gitorious:gogs/gitea::infinimer:minetest |
| 15:45 |
dzho |
derp |
| 15:45 |
dzho |
infiniminer* |
| 15:45 |
dzho |
I lost track, a little like spelling "banana" |
| 15:48 |
sfan5 |
gitorious, man that takes me back |
| 15:49 |
dzho |
ikr |
| 15:49 |
dzho |
I had been reminded of git.or.cz recently and gitorious was sort of the next step. |
| 15:50 |
pgimeno |
sfan5: thanks for adopting |
| 15:50 |
sfan5 |
np |
| 15:51 |
sfan5 |
the harder part might be waiting for two reviews |
| 15:53 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, what do you think about making the xml glyph data tsv, would it work? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11611#issuecomment-918002341 |
| 15:53 |
erlehmann |
i mean the reader is simple |
| 15:53 |
erlehmann |
just decide if you want to linebreak on *both* \r and \n or only \r (i suggest both bc ppl who use notepad to edit game data) |
| 15:53 |
sfan5 |
of course? |
| 15:53 |
erlehmann |
i am definitely willing to test it |
| 15:54 |
erlehmann |
i mean that way the xml is gone |
| 15:54 |
erlehmann |
but the easy to edit pixel font still there! |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11612 should negate your statement of speed anyways |
| 15:55 |
erlehmann |
i will test it! |
| 15:55 |
|
Extex joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:01 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 sfan5 who do i have to please to become core dev so i can approve stuff i test |
| 16:02 |
erlehmann |
i think i have shown i am much more anal about QA and security than most others here |
| 16:02 |
erlehmann |
so to say |
| 16:03 |
pgimeno |
sfan5: about the approvals, when you adopted it had you reviewed it? I mean, if you don't say explicitly that you haven't, since the PR is under your name, others may assume you've approved it. That's a bit of a shady area. |
| 16:03 |
pgimeno |
s/shady/grey/ |
| 16:04 |
sfan5 |
I would have added the label and a comment if that was the case |
| 16:04 |
pgimeno |
ok |
| 16:15 |
pgimeno |
as for #11600, I'd prefer if zstd was opt-in for old worlds rather than forced |
| 16:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11600 -- Possibility of an "early" 5.5 release |
| 16:16 |
pgimeno |
it's too easy to not be able to go back to an earlier version |
| 16:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> hasnt every other map update being forced? |
| 16:19 |
pgimeno |
I guess you have a point, it feels somehow different for me |
| 16:23 |
Pexin |
one might claim that "it's how we've always done it before" is never a valid justification |
| 16:23 |
Krock |
map version bumps are quite rare though |
| 16:23 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 16:23 |
erlehmann |
it is really obnoxious to test the same world with two clients and then realize you have to recreate it |
| 16:23 |
erlehmann |
testing with 5.4 is a thing after all |
| 16:23 |
Krock |
pgimeno: I raised this concern too, but it seems to have drown in the countless discussions |
| 16:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> pexin: correct, im just pointing that out |
| 16:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> rather than opt in, i would say for one version there should be a option to disable it for testing |
| 16:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> because getting users to enable or disable things is annoying |
| 16:29 |
pgimeno |
I guess I can write a map converter, I've done these things before |
| 16:30 |
erlehmann |
> there should be a option to disable it for testing → yes please |
| 16:31 |
erlehmann |
i have sent users world files |
| 16:31 |
erlehmann |
to test stuff |
| 16:31 |
erlehmann |
while i am on 5.5-dev, they are on 5.4 or sometimes even 5.3 |
| 17:02 |
sfan5 |
well perhaps --recompress can get an option to compress it to the previous version |
| 17:02 |
sfan5 |
but I am against adding an option |
| 17:04 |
pgimeno |
what's the current map version? 28 or 29? |
| 17:09 |
Krock |
pgimeno: serialization.h #define SER_FMT_VER_HIGHEST_WRITE 29 |
| 17:09 |
pgimeno |
thanks |
| 17:11 |
Krock |
although the difference of HIGHEST_READ and -WRITE is a mystery to me w |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
<sfan5> but I am against adding an option |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
why |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
it would make regression testing much easier |
| 17:13 |
Krock |
ehm.. --recompress already exists |
| 17:13 |
Krock |
and adding an enum for compression type lookup is a pretty simple thing |
| 17:13 |
sfan5 |
map updates were always non-backwards compatible, if an option was added for every change like this it would be a terrible mess |
| 17:14 |
erlehmann |
github javascript makes my computer run 10 degrees hotter than it run normally |
| 17:14 |
erlehmann |
i know again why i hate bloated websites |
| 17:16 |
specing |
Stop using github (: |
| 17:17 |
Krock |
check whether there's enough thermal compound |
| 17:17 |
pgimeno |
erlehmann: may I PM you? |
| 17:17 |
erlehmann |
ok |
| 17:18 |
erlehmann |
pgimeno, do it |
| 17:39 |
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| 18:26 |
celeron55 |
any other coredev comments about erlehmann proposing himself as coredev? |
| 18:29 |
Krock |
without a single PR this seems to be coming out of the blue, honestly speaking |
| 18:29 |
celeron55 |
or opinions, more like |
| 18:29 |
Krock |
yes I know about the early Minetest days, but I guess at east some things have changed since then |
| 18:30 |
nrz |
For me it's not sufficient |
| 18:30 |
nrz |
Many pr merged should be required |
| 18:31 |
celeron55 |
well that's enough, it's then decided erlehmann has to gain trust as a contributor |
| 18:40 |
Jordach |
i would step up for it seeing as i'm crazy enough to care about macs, and by extension iOS |
| 18:45 |
Jordach |
however, my concerns still resolve around finding a valid way of getting the real minetest on both Apple App stores |
| 18:45 |
Jordach |
Alongside including JIT |
| 18:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I could probably handle the Lua side of things |
| 18:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Is there something like "MTG maintainer"? A couple of PRs is literally just waiting for a second approval. |
| 18:51 |
erlehmann |
Krock nrz what exactly do you expect me todo? |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
the expectation is to have existing, relatively recent contribution history |
| 18:52 |
Jordach |
I'm working on cleaning up the sky right now |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
@luatc we have a team of MTG devs that is a subset of the coredevs, yet nobody really cares anymore |
| 18:52 |
Jordach |
Everyones favourite weeb hasn't been about recently |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
+i |
| 18:53 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 look, i can't just make features up |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
hecks said he's busy with work, might be a few weeks |
| 18:53 |
Jordach |
I was told you can't make first person attachments |
| 18:53 |
Jordach |
well that was clearly bunk |
| 18:53 |
erlehmann |
also i think wuzzy has made like 16 PRs or so and i have seen how long those lie around |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: thankfully other people have already made up features and posted them on the issue tracker |
| 18:54 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 yeah but if i test them what does it help if i can not approve them? |
| 18:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> erlehmann, it may just require some mixture of vigilance and patience for the opportunity to come. |
| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: no no I meant you could take open feature requests and implement them |
| 18:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You testing things makes it a lot easier for other people to approve them still |
| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
as for testing, all testing helps even if you cannot formally approve |
| 18:55 |
sfan5 |
for example I don't think I'll be testing the TGA thing because you said you did, so that makes the process easier for me |
| 18:55 |
sfan5 |
v-rob: if you get a chance please look at the 5.5 release proposal and also the protocol bump issue (both marked 'Discussion') |
| 18:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You don't need a formal coredev position to have your reputation as a thorough and reliable tester to carry a lot of weight. |
| 18:56 |
Jordach |
the lazier the core dev the more efficient minetest PRs get merged |
| 18:56 |
erlehmann |
<sfan5> for example I don't think I'll be testing the TGA thing because you said you did, so that makes the process easier for me |
| 18:57 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 funnily enough i think you should also test it if you approve it, bc what else would the approval be than a stamp “it works” |
| 18:57 |
erlehmann |
i mean “it works and it looks ok on a source level” |
| 18:58 |
erlehmann |
and i don't think you should believe me if i say it works, bc i could have made a mistake! |
| 18:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> 2 approvals really just means that 2 people trusted by the project are confident that the thing is correct enough ... there's no rule that says coredevs can't delegate some of that trust though. |
| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
i don't think you need to make PRs, but you do need to show your ability and responsibility |
| 18:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> More testing is better, but there isn't exactly some particular obvious threshold where it becomes "enough" so we kind of just have to pick an arbitrary one or else nothing would ever get done. |
| 18:59 |
Pexin |
how to define a good gauge of familiarity with the current state of the codebase |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
(that's only my opinion though, if others agree that code contributions are 100% essential, i will go with that) |
| 18:59 |
erlehmann |
in the light of the fact that wuzzy has a lot of PRs open i am kinda wary of making more PRs |
| 19:00 |
Krock |
@Warr1024 it's a matter of who might have the broadest knowledge about the code to catch mistakes. we already had this discussion about the influence of contributor reviews and they're a good gauge to ease the review process |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
eh |
| 19:00 |
erlehmann |
there clearly is a need of more review than more PRs? |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
look at the closed pull request list rather than the open one |
| 19:00 |
erlehmann |
ah ok |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
it's a lot longer |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
no need to get overly pessimistic |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Knowledge of the code is a double-edged sword when it comes to catching mistakes, and I'd never really feel quite comfortable that something is "well-tested" unless it's tested by both people familiar AND unfamiliar with the code. Knowing the code too well leads to biases and assumptions. |
| 19:01 |
erlehmann |
i see |
| 19:01 |
erlehmann |
i agree with Warr1024 |
| 19:01 |
erlehmann |
knowing stuff too well leads to people never trying out things |
| 19:02 |
Krock |
I don't see any big influence there, but it might be possible, yes. |
| 19:02 |
erlehmann |
i mean it is not surprising to me that all the dupes i have been told except two were found by ppl having no idea of why the engine behaves that way in the first place |
| 19:03 |
erlehmann |
i think if i want to contribute it would be CI work |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also it's easier to put real and consistent effort toward testing a thing when you're not already burned out from dealing with the code for it. :-D |
| 19:03 |
erlehmann |
making --random-input predictable |
| 19:03 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 that is true |
| 19:03 |
Krock |
@Warr1024 that's basically me right now |
| 19:04 |
erlehmann |
Krock nrz i am sorry i am *way* better poking holes in things than fixing them |
| 19:04 |
Krock |
erlehmann: I'm used to that. It just won't change anything. What's needed are proposals. - best in form of code to fix it for once and all |
| 19:05 |
erlehmann |
but i can give you some new holes, let me open issues |
| 19:05 |
nrz |
erlehmann, no issue, as a contributor it's fine, like wuzzy does mainly, and after that he found time to contribute a bit with PR |
| 19:05 |
erlehmann |
give me a few minutes to find a new bug or something to show my willingness to contribute! |
| 19:05 |
erlehmann |
:D |
| 19:07 |
rubenwardy |
MTG devs don't need to be a subset, they can be distinct |
| 19:08 |
sfan5 |
(that just the current situation) |
| 19:08 |
sfan5 |
but not like we need more devs to occasionally merge a fix and reject features |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I'd just like to give a 2nd approval to pretty much all one approval thingies of MTG after having had a thorough second look at them |
| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
hm |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It seems like if you just start functioning as a core dev in every way other than formal status, i.e. you give productive, useful feedback in reviews, do reliable and thorough testing, and your comments are generally well-formed an insightful, then you'll already be a core dev in all but name and it becomes very easy for someone to just close that gap and make it official :-) |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Except game#2567 - that still needs the rebase |
| 19:13 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2567 -- Lower frequency of standing/sitting animation by An0n3m0us |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> sounds like lmd is looking to infect mtg with modlib on a more serious note, 2 approvals are still needed for mtg, adding lmd to mtg wouldn't be a bad idea since its essentially abandoned(aside from the brief attention because of core dev meeting) |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I can't add modlib all alone ;) |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I also won't, considering it has plenty of features MTG doesn't need |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> If I was to infect something with modlib, it would probably be the engine |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Cue builtinlib |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think one rather important feature for a coredev is being at least willing/able to use the communication media that the project officially uses, such as IRC and GitHub. If you, say, have serious objections to using GitHub, then that would be a serious obstacle to coredevship, since it's an important central communication medium for the project. |
| 19:19 |
sfan5 |
isn't that a bit ironic to say over a discord bridge |
| 19:20 |
Krock |
haaha |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean, it is using irc, just abstracted |
| 19:20 |
erlehmann |
github sucks |
| 19:20 |
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| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> more obvious than using say matrix to communicate to irc |
| 19:20 |
erlehmann |
i am only using github because i feel ppl won't read it if i don't use their facebook for coders |
| 19:20 |
* appguru |
proceeds to show good will by joining on IRC |
| 19:20 |
Pexin |
ponders cli full github frontend |
| 19:21 |
appguru |
"Facebook for coders" - lel |
| 19:21 |
appguru |
sadly kind of true |
| 19:21 |
v-rob |
I agree with Warr1024 that the best way to judge core dev material is if people are already doing the sorts of duties a core dev would and are responsible. That's basically how I became one -- make a bunch of useful PRs and do reviews. That's also why people like Wuzzy have been proposed (although he refused), and that's kinda what I think the criteria should be. |
| 19:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I am not unwilling or unable to use IRC; I am, in fact, actually lurking on the network. I'm just not in the channel directly right now because dealing with self-pings is a PITA, as is juggling apps, and I'm already responsible as a moderator for Discord so I might as well be here. |
| 19:21 |
erlehmann |
appguru especially with the thumbs-upp-button next to posts it is hilarious |
| 19:21 |
erlehmann |
like there are some projects that get mentioned on orange website and then hordes of ppl come and give thumbs up or down |
| 19:22 |
sfan5 |
I wasn't implying that, just for clarity |
| 19:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If MTE were to institute a policy like "all core dev meetings must be NOT through some unreliable bridge bot" then it wouldn't really be a problem for me to hop over for that. I'd just hate to have to mess with complex notification/mute rules on a day to day basis. |
| 19:22 |
sfan5 |
question: do you participate here from your phone? |
| 19:22 |
v-rob |
Eh, I can understand being on Discord. IRC's cranky (or maybe it's my client, I dunno), but it does funky things to me from time to time. |
| 19:23 |
appguru |
The Discord relay being online 24/7 also handles the bouncer hassle for you. |
| 19:23 |
appguru |
I have considered importing the logs found on the website to Thunderbird through some script, but I'm too lazy |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> IRC and mobile still mostly suck for each other. I use TheLounge client, which makes IRC on mobile a lot better ... but unfortunately it's kinda crap when it comes to customizability, and especially not being able to customize highlights/pings on a per-channel or per-sender basis is a big pain. If I lurk in the channel and ever also type via Discord, then the discord bot's messages will highlight and ping me on the IRC side. |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> The relay is supposed to insert a special character somewhere to prevent self-mentions but as usual, the bridge doesnt like to work |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> TheLounge at least does handle the "bouncer" case for you (you can self-host an always-on client on your own infrastructure) and the multi-device sync thing, so e.g. shared experience with mobile and desktop. |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> actually it may have gotten disabled, hold on |
| 19:26 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Ah nope, its on |
| 19:27 |
appguru |
The problem is: I don't have my own infrastructure |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, that does kinda suck. |
| 19:27 |
Pexin |
I just run irssi/screen on my fileserver at home |
| 19:28 |
appguru |
Who hosts https://irc.minetest.net BTW? Downloading all logs wouldn't kill it, right? |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> People don't like the discord thing because bridges are unreliable, and because not free software. With a matrix bride, though, you could at least only have to worry about one of those. |
| 19:28 |
sfan5 |
me but please don't |
| 19:29 |
appguru |
sfan5: then how can I obtain the full logs? |
| 19:29 |
sfan5 |
well why do you want that |
| 19:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean, you should be able to bulk-download as long as you use a gentle enough speed limit... |
| 19:29 |
erlehmann |
if there was only an established protocol where clients could transparently sync with a multi user chat on rejoining that had support from a lot of clients for years! (like xmpp) |
| 19:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, yeah, I loved XMPP in its heyday, even though it never quite got its act together for mobile (it got pretty close though). Sadly it's all xkcd 927 all the way down. |
| 19:30 |
appguru |
sfan5: dunno, it just seems kinda convenient to always have full context available |
| 19:31 |
appguru |
and as it's pretty much plaintext, it shouldn't be all that large |
| 19:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> FYI there is a literal plaintext version of each capture, I think, i.e. without any additional markup. |
| 19:31 |
appguru |
Yeah there is |
| 19:31 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 “in its heyday” wdym, it is not only still used, it works better than before. |
| 19:31 |
sfan5 |
it's rare that I need anything older than a week and if so I could also use google |
| 19:32 |
sfan5 |
though being able to grep .local/share/hexchat/logs is pretty convenient |
| 19:33 |
appguru |
Well, how large is it? Could you just provide a full .tar for download? |
| 19:33 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 250 million fortnite players use xmpp, that's probably … a lot |
| 19:33 |
erlehmann |
if the chatlogs were in a git repo, you could just do git pull hmm |
| 19:34 |
sfan5 |
mysql apparently uses <400MB for that table |
| 19:34 |
sfan5 |
if you want to download all -dev logs I won't stop you but a rate limit will slow you down |
| 19:43 |
erlehmann |
who decided the actual values for --random-input? the digging time and the mouse movement does not seem very good for testing in my opinion. |
| 19:44 |
erlehmann |
however, if you set digging to 200 or 300 and divide mouse movement by 10 it kinda works |
| 19:57 |
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| 19:59 |
sfan5 |
does anyone want to review #11605 or should I merge it as trivial |
| 19:59 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11605 -- Fix GLES2 discard behaviour (texture transparency) by sfan5 |
| 19:59 |
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| 19:59 |
sfan5 |
maybe I should be less impatient, it's not an important fix |
| 20:03 |
Krock |
if it's tested, feel free to merge. I don't see how it could cause issues on any other render |
| 20:04 |
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| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 this looks like it affects rendering on the MNT reform? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11605/files |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
so is the bug also on the MNT reform? |
| 20:06 |
sfan5 |
I guess |
| 20:07 |
erlehmann |
ok i told mntmn about it |
| 20:08 |
erlehmann |
i think he fixed that originally |
| 20:09 |
sfan5 |
it's not like you need to test it specifically on there, it affects normal GLES rendering and can be tested on any PC (which I did) |
| 20:09 |
erlehmann |
well the GPU on the reform had some discard bug |
| 20:09 |
erlehmann |
i think |
| 20:10 |
erlehmann |
but from the comment it seems to be the same |
| 20:28 |
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| 21:22 |
erlehmann |
<erlehmann> mntmn, can you test if it breaks your previous fix? |
| 21:22 |
erlehmann |
<mntmn> erlehmann: not currently |
| 21:22 |
erlehmann |
<mntmn> next week |
| 21:23 |
sfan5 |
there is no need to test that, it doesn't |
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| 22:14 |
erlehmann |
why was this merged https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/pull/64 but this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11598 rot yet? |
| 22:15 |
sfan5 |
do you see it having two approvals |
| 22:15 |
erlehmann |
oh i see, irrlichtmt does not need that |
| 22:15 |
sfan5 |
now if you were to correctly point out that bugfixes can be merged without two approvals the answer is: I haven't bothered |
| 22:18 |
erlehmann |
well it seems to me anything can be committed to master without two approvals if the stars align. the TGA removal for example does not look like there was even a PR regarding it https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1e2b6388818fec0d4cdc52f796850bfb7ec3a22e |
| 22:19 |
erlehmann |
i really don't understand those rules (and i prefer projects where no one ever can commit to master, but let's not go there) |
| 22:21 |
sfan5 |
pgimeno: I looked at your code earlier and the only two comments I have are very minor: 1) I wouldn't use `opts[2] ~= nil` to check for presence but rather compare `#opts` 2) the `local cmd_marker` and the following if can be merged into an inline condition |
| 22:27 |
pgimeno |
sfan5: huh, that should be args instead of opts now that I look again |
| 22:30 |
Desour |
wouldn't it be easier to use a {opt = true} like set for opts instead of a string? |
| 22:31 |
sfan5 |
I considered too but opts:find("x") isn't that hard |
| 22:32 |
pgimeno |
it would be faster, but it's not really performance-critical and that's sort of clean |
| 22:32 |
pgimeno |
I don't care either way |
| 22:32 |
pgimeno |
I had in mind the getopt options string where you pass all options in a single string |
| 22:33 |
Desour |
if someone wants to extend the getopts function at some time to do "--bar=foo" stuff, it could also be more easily changed to that |
| 22:34 |
pgimeno |
hm, it would better be extended with another argument to not mix -c and --c |
| 22:36 |
pgimeno |
anyway it's local to the file, I had reasons to do that when I wrote it but I no longer remember, but it means it can't be used for anything but the functions in this file |
| 22:36 |
pgimeno |
which are... do_help_command and nothing else :) |
| 22:37 |
pgimeno |
if it's ok as is, the review changes are pushed, otherwise it will take longer |
| 22:40 |
pgimeno |
I think it was that the options are unlikely to be useful to any other command, and if the time comes, it can be moved around/published/whatever |
| 22:41 |
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