Time Nick Message 09:23 zughy[m] chiming in just to say you're all doing an amazing job :) 09:44 MTDiscord yeah 09:44 MTDiscord can we talk about bones for a minute? 10:43 MTDiscord game#2745 is ready for merge 10:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2745 -- Redo player_api by appgurueu 11:35 pgimeno wow, camera offset is gone?! that was fast 12:09 pgimeno ugh, no, it's not gone, it's just how to apply it to the meshed blocks that has changed :( 12:10 pgimeno that was a huge WTF, so that's good, but the problem of having the camera offset everywhere in the code is still there 12:21 Krock without it, the tiles end up distorted like in minecraft 14:51 pgimeno I know what the problem was, what I say is that the solution is bad. Instead of stepping in discrete amounts every 200 m, it should be continuous, and not affect so many areas of the code. 15:07 sfan5 <sfan5> Krock: do you think TOCLIENT_NODEMETA_CHANGED should be on channel 2? I can make a commit if you agree. 15:07 sfan5 <sfan5> current ones for reference: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/network/serveropcodes.cpp#L215 15:08 Krock should be the same as formspec events 15:08 Krock thank you for pointing out your message. I'll increase the ZNC scrollback setting now 15:09 Krock considering that hecks is spreading all channels anyway, it might be better to do such a change in their PR 15:25 sfan5 true 15:35 MTDiscord serializeString became serializeString32 and serializeLongString became serializeJsonString? 15:36 MTDiscord nvm 19:23 MTDiscord Hey sfan 19:23 MTDiscord U were the cool guy who made the worldedit right? 19:23 sfan5 I am 19:24 MTDiscord Can u add more cmds like //lua minetest.chat? 19:25 MTDiscord Like //lua minetest.status_add("") 19:25 sfan5 no idea what those are supposed to do, it is not worldedit's job to extend Minetest's API either 19:25 MTDiscord Can be useful to add the admin name when they want to leave, that will ignore alot of griefers from griefing 19:25 sfan5 and this isn't the right place to discuss this 19:25 MTDiscord Oh ok 22:56 lhofhansl Hi all. If you feel inclined have a look at #10703. 22:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10703 -- DISCUSS: Streamline distance configuration 22:57 hecks okay so 22:57 lhofhansl In the past weeks I have been trying to increase various default limit of MT for more high end machines. 22:57 hecks I think trying to wrangle all those settings in a sane way is a fool's errand 22:57 lhofhansl What would you propose instead? 22:57 hecks I don't have a concrete proposal yet but 22:57 lhofhansl Right now it sucks and nobody understand unless you looks at the code or read the documentation. 22:58 hecks the very fact that those settings exist means that our block "state machine" or however you call it isn't neatly designed 22:58 lhofhansl Look at Minecraft, you drag a viewing range slider and off you go. 22:58 hecks exactly 22:58 hecks because all the other stuff should be downstream from the vision range 22:58 lhofhansl This does this.. It's set the client viewing_range and server distance settings so that it all works together. 22:59 lhofhansl Cannot force the client viewing_range to a remote server, though. 22:59 lhofhansl The reverse is possible. 22:59 hecks It should basically be the min of both 22:59 hecks but 23:00 hecks it might be confusing when people suddenly try to hit + on a server and their vision range is capped 23:00 lhofhansl It *is* capped :) The server won't send any farther data. Of course you can look at blocks farther away that you already loaded. 23:01 hecks exactly, and people expect silly things like "unlimited vision range" to work that way 23:01 lhofhansl This is not going to be perfect either way. At least for local games we can make it work without reading the documentation. 23:01 hecks you'd probably have a few angry folks asking you why you took that (broken) mode away 23:01 hecks how about 23:02 hecks setting any of those things to 0 makes it "auto" 23:02 lhofhansl Right. So hence my proposal: as a user pick a preset or don't. 23:02 hecks and that is the default 23:02 hecks and when it's auto, it's all pegged to the big ol' "distance" setting 23:02 celeron55 0 = auto sounds good to me 23:02 sfan5 huh? are you advocating capping client view range to what the server has? 23:02 lhofhansl yeah, but that's a separate concern. 23:03 celeron55 well i would leave in the "broken mode", it's quite useful 23:03 lhofhansl How do you set the server's send distance (for example for a singleplayer game) without going to "all settings" and knowing exactly what to set and what these values mean. 23:03 hecks as for the client's draw distance: cap +/- according to server's settings but still let the player exceed that range by holding shift and hitting those keys 23:04 hecks and don't change the "unlimited" mode because oh well, someone's gonna whine about it if you do 23:04 lhofhansl The part I am trying to solve is the allow a "normal" user to configure the local server's sending distance. 23:04 celeron55 for on that mode allows one to see what's loaded on the client 23:04 sfan5 introducing shift to override the server's setting is needlessly complicated for no reason 23:04 celeron55 for one* 23:05 hecks alternatively, the unlimited mode might require the debug priv 23:05 hecks because it allows xraying 23:05 lhofhansl I do not want to make this overly complicated. We can have a dialog, drop down, slider, etc, to set these four or five server settings, and they will be sensibly set together. 23:06 celeron55 hecks: that might make sense 23:06 hecks and maybe overriding the server's distance also requires debug 23:06 sfan5 I still don't see the reason for taking those features away 23:07 celeron55 allowing the server to set up consistent and fair gameplay isn't exactly something to try to avoid 23:07 lhofhansl That's not at all what I am proposing. 23:08 celeron55 but on the other hand people like MT's features 23:08 sfan5 lhofhansl: yeah that wasn't regarding your suggestion 23:09 sfan5 giving the server more control over view range, fog, etc. makes sense solely because games might need those features 23:09 sfan5 but restricting them by default for nebulous (heh) reasons makes zero sense to me 23:09 lhofhansl Maybe like with zoom the server optionally gets control of the client's viewing_range. 23:09 lhofhansl But... 23:10 lhofhansl I think the main issue right now that you cannot easily have a singleplayer game and adjust your viewing_range that is consistent between client and local server. 23:11 lhofhansl Or as hecks says, you set your viewing_range to 0, then the client adjusts to the server setting. I'm suggesting that as well on the issue. 23:11 hecks er, what? no I didn't really suggest that 23:12 hecks I suggested tying all the downstream server settings to the block send distance 23:12 lhofhansl err... ok. I must have misunderstood then. 23:12 hecks and then capping the client's viewing range to that too 23:12 hecks unless the client has debug, then allow exceeding it 23:12 lhofhansl that client bit needs to be optional 23:12 lhofhansl I see 23:12 hecks yeah as I mentioned, some people will complain 23:13 hecks but for a smooth experience for new players, some "soft" cap would make sense at least 23:13 hecks which is why I also suggested the shift thing 23:13 lhofhansl Agree... That part has irked me for a while. 23:13 sfan5 is it really so irritating to new players that there would be limit on how much the server sends no matter how far you increase your range? 23:13 hecks but as I also said, having a viewing range further than the send distance allows you to xray and that's a bit of a cheat 23:14 lhofhansl sfan5: It looks bad. The horizon simply won't load. Looks like bug. 23:14 hecks sfan5: it did kinda bother me at first 23:14 lhofhansl But I'd like to go to how to actually set the server side settings. 23:14 lhofhansl Can we address that? 23:15 hecks Okay, let's handwave the client for now 23:15 lhofhansl Just saying that all of this moot if you cannot actually set sensible settings. 23:16 hecks so my proposal is autodetecting most things by setting them to 0 23:16 lhofhansl Instead of preset we can a have a "max viewing_range" dropdown. From there we populate the server fields. 23:16 sfan5 yeah that sounds useful 23:16 hecks and making block_send_range the master setting 23:17 lhofhansl How do you default max_block_send_distance? 23:17 lhofhansl I see. Yes. That what's I want to do! 23:17 hecks 10 blocks 23:17 hecks half that for a "low" setting 23:18 lhofhansl and need to adjust generate distance, active block distance, active object send distance, etc. 23:18 hecks yup 23:18 lhofhansl Hence the presets. But we can have distance settings. 23:19 hecks and from generate distance, autodetect all that esoteric mapgen queue stuff 23:19 hecks generate distance should *slightly* exceed the send distance 23:19 lhofhansl That's a bit harder since multiple emerge thread cause subtle mapgen bugs. 23:19 hecks not that 23:19 hecks emerge threads are left explicit 23:20 hecks but the emerge queue size stuff, that is probably the most cryptic part of the settings and it matters 23:20 lhofhansl emerge queue sizes? client queue limits, etc? 23:20 hecks no opinion on the client side of that 23:20 hecks cause all the client does is receive, cache and mesh the blocks 23:20 lhofhansl we have good defaults now, for a wide ranging scale of use cases. But yeah, we can include these in the presets. 23:21 hecks ah but... you miss the point 23:21 hecks our defaults aren't actually perfect, and not setting them to 0 by default defeats the whole purpose of having that 23:22 hecks by design, most of those settings shouldn't even be touched 23:22 hecks but since they're distance dependent, peg them to the distance 23:23 hecks if you don't do that, the task of changing the distance on your server becomes very complicated 23:23 lhofhansl That's just the mechanics. What does the user actually configure, and where is it located in the UI? 23:23 lhofhansl After we answer that, let's make it so. 23:23 hecks Distance slider 23:24 hecks Just block distance, and honestly, I wouldn't bother with a "verbal" dropdown 23:24 hecks just a "default" button to snap it back 23:24 lhofhansl Ok... That's easy. That's what the presets are doing, could turn it into a slider. Then we either have presets that make sense to together, or we auto-configure them. Same difference. 23:24 lhofhansl But that's what I want to achieve. 23:25 lhofhansl Who knows how to make a slider for the MT UI? 23:26 hecks use a scrollbar element :] 23:26 sfan5 yeah that's your best bet 23:27 hecks I wouldn't mind some dedicated slider and intslider widgets but that's a todo 23:28 lhofhansl So we are generally in agreement it seems. I happened to have called it "presets", but anything is fine, as long as the client and server are aligning their config. And this is only for singleplayer games. 23:29 lhofhansl For multiplayer games we need to discuss how the client behaves and who has control over the client's viewing range. That's a different issue/PR, IMHO 23:30 lhofhansl Maybe you guys can comment on 10703. 23:34 lhofhansl I'll file a demo PR. Not a UI guy, and limited time, but I'd like get the discussion started.