| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:27 |
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| 04:47 |
sofar |
hmm, so, get_mapgen_object("heatmap") is broken with 5.3.0, but works with 5.2.0, bizarre |
| 04:47 |
* sofar |
gives up and goes to bed |
| 06:06 |
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| 06:30 |
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| 08:00 |
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| 11:10 |
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| 13:17 |
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| 13:20 |
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| 13:27 |
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cimbakahn joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:28 |
cimbakahn |
Hello! Is anyone around? |
| 13:28 |
cimbakahn |
Can anyone tell from these 6 screenshots if this is a singleplayer world or a public server? https://imgur.com/a/bygc3n6 |
| 13:31 |
sfan5 |
wrong channel, this is development only |
| 13:31 |
sfan5 |
the answer to your question is that an RTT (ping) of 1ms very strongly implies that those screenshots were made in singleplayer |
| 13:38 |
cimbakahn |
I went to minetest-hub and it looked like my message wasn't getting through. It read: #minetest-hub :Cannot send to nick/channel |
| 13:39 |
cimbakahn |
I don't know what that means? |
| 13:39 |
jonadab |
Could also be a local/private server. |
| 13:39 |
cimbakahn |
Well, which minetest irc am i supposed to go to? |
| 13:41 |
cimbakahn |
sfan5, Thank you! I have only played singleplayer, and public servers from the minetest server list. |
| 13:42 |
sfan5 |
#minetest is the right channel for general stuff |
| 13:42 |
cimbakahn |
Atleast it has the seed and the coordinates, so maybe i can recreate the world. |
| 13:42 |
cimbakahn |
Which one? There is more that one minetest irc. |
| 13:43 |
cimbakahn |
I don't see one that just reads minetest. |
| 13:43 |
sfan5 |
on this irc network (freenode), just do /join #minetest |
| 13:43 |
cimbakahn |
sfan5, Ok. Thank you! |
| 14:04 |
zughy[m] |
Code here says "itemstack or itemstring or table or nil", while documentation says just "item", without specifying anything. Which one should I keep? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/lua_api/l_object.cpp#L344 |
| 14:14 |
sfan5 |
item |
| 14:16 |
|
Lejo joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:19 |
Lejo |
So I now waited a few days for answeres on this: (((((Another thing about the management thing of Issues/PRs (https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=25507) I think we should work more with tags, like adding more often "Supported by core devs" or if it's a bad idea nobody would merge if someone would create a PR just close the Issue. Contributors should clearly know if a Issue is likly to get merged when |
| 14:19 |
Lejo |
creating a PR for it. I mean we don't want to waste their time. These PRs for "approved" Issues should be priorised. The second thing is about how to review PRs. I often wonder why PRs are half reviewed like one small mistake was just fixed and than nothing happens. You could use tags here as well to clearly show where what (idea, codestyle, working) needs to be reviewed. I understand that it's hard to handle so |
| 14:19 |
Lejo |
much stuff but that's exactly the reason why we should order the mess.)))) |
| 14:20 |
Lejo |
I honestly don't care what you think about my ideas, I just want to try to make clear that there is currently a problem. |
| 14:21 |
sfan5 |
I think all of the devs know |
| 14:21 |
Lejo |
It's your decison what to do about it, nobody will or can stop you. I just hope that you understand that a lot of people are currently not happy with the current setup. |
| 14:21 |
Lejo |
So will you change anything? |
| 14:25 |
Lejo |
I mean you don't have to exactly state how, when, what you might change. I just want to know if there is any will to fix the current situation? |
| 14:27 |
sfan5 |
only two(?) devs have given their opinion so I can't tell if or how your suggestions can be implemented |
| 14:28 |
sfan5 |
I'm sure there is will to fix the problems plaguing development, but if the solution boils down to "you need more time to deal with issues/review PRs" then it's not something that can "just" be done |
| 14:35 |
Lejo |
Sure and It's also a great thing that you spend your time contributing for no money! You just need to keep in mind that others want too but can't because of your bussyness. Don't understand me wrong that is totaly ok. You don't have to do anything. There should just be someone helping you. So we need on one side more reviewers (don't have to be core devs) and a clear order how to review. I'm sure my quick ideas |
| 14:35 |
Lejo |
aren't good or nearly perfect. I just haven't seen any will on your side for discussion brainstorming or anything to fix that. I'm sure you have seen the topcis on the forum talking about what to change. Were you there? I only saw rubenwardy and v-rob... In the end it's up to you and I would be happy if a change happens sooner than later. |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
I have read the topics you are referring to |
| 14:41 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:42 |
Lejo |
So what do you think about it? Got any ideas what to change? |
| 14:45 |
sfan5 |
The problems raised by the topic(s) obviously exist and should be solved for Minetest to become a (more) successful project, but I don't have any great idea how to fix it |
| 14:46 |
sfan5 |
more reviewers and/or more coredevs would be nice but I wonder where those people would come from |
| 14:49 |
nerzhul_ |
it's not only PR, but real, develop-able roadmap. As we miss people with shader skills it's hard to increase the user facing part too |
| 14:51 |
zughy[m] |
If I were (any) of you, I'd start from the roadmap, I'd choose a couple common points to follow and accept the idea you can't manage everything. Yes, you're absolutely right, PRs and issues rain down like hell and you're human, guys. Active core devs are, what? 5-6? |
| 14:52 |
Lejo |
If we can't increase the amount of people which would surly be possible at least a bit we can only make reviewing/developing more efficient. Some of my Ideas on this are: Make codestyle automatic with tools like uncrustify, make a clear queue what to review, kind of approved Ideas in Issues (PRs doing that will be approved). |
| 14:52 |
sfan5 |
more like 3-4 |
| 14:52 |
zughy[m] |
This is a fresh piece from KDE devs. I think it can help you understanding what to do: https://pointieststick.com/2020/10/21/inside-kde-leadership-and-long-term-planning/ |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I could easily review the coding style / formatting parts of PRs. |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<oneplustwo> anarchy? |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<oneplustwo> looks like somebody needs to be liberated from uncivilization |
| 14:54 |
sfan5 |
Lejo: I think the last point of those suggestions would have the most impact and personally like the suggestion, but until we have discussed it with all/most devs it won't happen |
| 14:54 |
sfan5 |
zughy[m]: by "accepting that you can't manage everything" do you mean contributions which don't match that current roadmap should be rejected? if not, how does that solve the issue? |
| 14:57 |
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| 14:57 |
Lejo |
Great! I can only advice you to take a look on nextclouds(https://github.com/nextcloud/server) way to handle that. They use tags and bot for that. |
| 14:58 |
zughy[m] |
What people are asking in those topic is basically to know where this is going, and to be an active part of it. Aside the whole frustration, I think it's a fair question, and we can't answer that even if we wanted to |
| 14:59 |
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| 14:59 |
sfan5 |
we're not talking about the same things then |
| 14:59 |
sfan5 |
I don't personally consider lack of a single roadmap a bad thing, but let's leave that aside |
| 14:59 |
sfan5 |
the much bigger problem with development is that we don't have near enough time to deal with all issues and PRs |
| 15:00 |
sfan5 |
^ that's what I had in mind with my questions |
| 15:02 |
Lejo |
why dont we make a queue + a guide how to review and let it the community do? I'm sure there are a lot of experienced contributors capable of that. Not every reviewer needs to be a core dev. |
| 15:03 |
zughy[m] |
Right now it looks like one of those old families where the father breaks his own back because of working without asking help to anyone, almost like it was a weakness. But I think people would understand if the father said "I can't handle all of this", and they'd actually be supportive. Those were my 2 cents |
| 15:04 |
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| 15:06 |
sfan5 |
hm |
| 15:06 |
sfan5 |
other people can already review PRs to help the author correct stuff before coredevs have a look |
| 15:07 |
sfan5 |
if you make reviewers an official thing and count their approval I'd be wondering why those people don't just become real coredevs |
| 15:07 |
rubenwardy |
I support automated code styles. I use clang format on my own projects, running it on all changed files before committing |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
also regarding that I wonder if community members have the required expertise and view on e.g. api design, backwards compatibility and code structure to review "correctly" |
| 15:08 |
rubenwardy |
I have made PRs to attempt to make it mandatory for Minetest, but there's a bunch of edge cases |
| 15:08 |
rubenwardy |
I think that having 95% of the code correctly styled justifies the edge cases |
| 15:08 |
rubenwardy |
Currently, we have something like 5% correctly styled but at least a few edge cases are ok |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
(of course those things can be written down in a guide (as suggested), but the amount of knowledge that can be transferred is limited; some things just need someone with experience) |
| 15:09 |
Lejo |
you might know the code style and can test if a PR works but don't have a overview over the whole project (like me) But wouldn't such people be able to help? |
| 15:10 |
sfan5 |
help yes and that's already possible now |
| 15:11 |
sfan5 |
but to really make a difference you'd want reviewers whose approval you can trust so that coredevs can just blindly merge a PR that has two reviewer approval but has never been reviewed by a coredev |
| 15:11 |
sfan5 |
or was that not the direction your suggestion is supposed to go in? |
| 15:13 |
Lejo |
Yep that's what I thought. Of course the core devs aprooval is still needed (maybe reduce to 1). I thing we should mobilize the community and tell them that there is work to do. |
| 15:14 |
Lejo |
Maybe there should also be auto merge bots + blocker depending on approvals + checks |
| 15:16 |
Lejo |
Another problem I currently see is that PRs are half reviewed or not approved and merged after review |
| 15:16 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:17 |
sfan5 |
that's an issue with priotisation and I'm guilty of that too |
| 15:17 |
sfan5 |
(probably because I randomly review a few recent/eye-catching PRs whenever I feel like it) |
| 15:20 |
Lejo |
That's a thing which could be done using tags or maybe also using bots. There are multiple things which could be improved using them. Stuff like: Inform about rebasing/stale issues |
| 15:21 |
rubenwardy |
I personally use this when prioritising reviews: https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/projects/1 |
| 15:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> If there was an official review queue I'd probably drop a few reviews in if I had the time |
| 15:24 |
Lejo |
I agree such a queue should be more official |
| 15:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> I could review without an official queue but I lean towards reviewing the easier PRs that I want the most, and those aren't always the ones the devs have their eyes on (Not making a poke there, there are a lot of good PRs) |
| 15:33 |
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| 15:48 |
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| 15:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i know im a bit late to the party, but > more reviewers and/or more coredevs would be nice but I wonder where those people would come from yet literally you had this a few days ago ?♂️ > Well okay, I'll be a core dev then > I'm still going to make my java Crafter game as well, but I'll be happy to modify the engine to not be so insane |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> * yet literally had this a few days ago |
| 15:57 |
rubenwardy |
oil_boi only has 2 commits in the repo, I don't think it's a good idea to grant privs before obtaining experience |
| 15:58 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> ^ |
| 15:58 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> I also don't think he has much C++ / Irrlicht experience |
| 15:58 |
nerzhul_ |
yep a coredev is a major contributor |
| 16:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> > but I wonder where those people would come from so now its both ways, want people, but don't want people? |
| 16:02 |
rubenwardy |
they usually come from active contributors |
| 16:07 |
rubenwardy |
I'm hoping that if I ask numberZero enough times if they want to be a dev, they'll say yes |
| 16:07 |
rubenwardy |
https://media.giphy.com/media/GYeLcrWi5DMqs/source.gif |
| 16:16 |
pgimeno |
"A wise maintainer listens to the input of others and changes his or her mind when presented with reasonable alternative perspectives, but ultimately that person makes the call. If you don’t like the call, tough. It’s their project, not yours." - wish there was that for MT |
| 16:19 |
zughy[m] |
how about choosing a couple macro-argoments from the roadmap and any new PR which is not related to that or it's not a bugfix, gets closed? |
| 16:21 |
zughy[m] |
for instance, I've been trying to clean up code because I remember ruben proposed to get rid of rot code, so I tried to stick with it. Yes, there are other things I'd like to do but I'm not doing them because I know they're not #1 priority |
| 16:21 |
ShadowBot |
zughy[m]: Error: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 4KB. |
| 16:48 |
rubenwardy |
#10535 |
| 16:48 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Error: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 4KB. |
| 16:48 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10535 -- Add roadmap by rubenwardy |
| 16:52 |
zughy[m] |
yeah pgimeno but the "benevolent dictator" here is basically non existent. I mean, core devs are the ones choosing 99% of time |
| 16:53 |
zughy[m] |
so we're more into the "elders" situation. Which is good, as it's not a small project |
| 16:53 |
zughy[m] |
* yeah pgimeno but the "benevolent dictator" here is basically non existent. I mean, core devs are the ones choosing 99% of the time |
| 16:54 |
pgimeno |
hence why I said "wish there was that for MT" |
| 16:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> MT is a community project, there is no dictator |
| 16:59 |
rubenwardy |
it's more like a constitutional monarchy with an oligraphy |
| 16:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> more like a democracy if you ask me |
| 16:59 |
rubenwardy |
celeron55 delegates to us, but ultimately retains control |
| 17:00 |
rubenwardy |
it's not a democracy as we are unelected |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> but we elect what goes on the game engine |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> fact is we can't please everybody, so we have to vote on what makes sense or what's possible to implement |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> MT is not a democracy, nor has it ever been one. It was c55's per project, which was then handed to other developers who became interesting in continuing the work. |
| 17:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> then justify the elections on implementing certain PRs then |
| 17:08 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> explain why it isn't ademocracy |
| 17:09 |
zughy[m] |
no Genshin, if there is someone who can decide for everyone (in this case celeron) is not a democracy |
| 17:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> MT being a game engine only came about with 0.4, and the hierarchy of management has yet to move from those who originally were making a game, but now are making an engine for games. |
| 17:10 |
pgimeno |
when I said that, my point was that I believe it would be beneficial for the project if there was a unique person with a clear vision, deciding what gets in and what stays out |
| 17:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> Okay, then explain why c55 isn't participating modt of the time then? He's leaving it to others to solve it. |
| 17:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> I literally just said he passed the torch... |
| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> If that's not a democracy, then i don't know what the bloody hell this system is. I just hope things get solved. carry on |
| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<βασιλεύς Αλέξιος VI Αποκιος> I think I put it a year or so ago that C55 is more of the Gaurdian of the copyright to keep MT opensource |
| 17:14 |
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| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<βασιλεύς Αλέξιος VI Αποκιος> /g/ I think it is more of an oligarchy |
| 17:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Genshin> THat never works in a community based project |
| 17:18 |
celeron55 |
i wonder what it would take to get the automated code style issues solved |
| 17:20 |
celeron55 |
personally i have a way to automatically format code in a high enough standard to suit me, but technically it's a bit hacky as it involves running uncrustify and afterwards a custom formatting python script that reworks indentation and a few other small things uncrustify doesn't do properly |
| 17:29 |
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| 17:34 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I might submit a PR for clang format this weekend. |
| 17:35 |
sfan5 |
for a clang format configuration or ..? |
| 17:35 |
sfan5 |
because we already have a clang format config and CI step that runs it |
| 17:35 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Clang format config. |
| 17:36 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I looked at it and it doesn't look like it agrees with the style guide. |
| 17:36 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Probably why it reports falso positives so much. |
| 17:37 |
sfan5 |
improvements to it are definitely welcome |
| 17:41 |
rubenwardy |
this is my current attempt https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/tree/clang-format |
| 17:43 |
rubenwardy |
and here's another attempt to make it less aggressive https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/pull/new/clang-format-simple |
| 17:44 |
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| 17:45 |
Krock |
til I can open PRs for other people's branches |
| 17:45 |
Krock |
"Documentation has changed since you last contributed 10 days ago. Take a look before submitting a pull request:" |
| 17:46 |
Krock |
thank you GitHub |
| 17:46 |
rubenwardy |
lol |
| 18:24 |
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| 18:27 |
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| 18:29 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Rubenwardy, you've done exactly what I was planning to do, but isn't the GPL 2.0 License a problem? |
| 18:30 |
rubenwardy |
I don't think it counts, as a configuration file |
| 18:30 |
rubenwardy |
could perhaps remove the kernel bits |
| 18:30 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I was told it wouldn't work to copy Linux' .clang-format directly because of the License, but you're probably more familiar with the rules. |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
perhaps best to avoid that then |
| 19:00 |
rubenwardy |
this is the PR for that branch where I make clang-format required: #10029 |
| 19:00 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Error: That URL raised <Connection timed out.> |
| 19:00 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10029 -- Change clang-format configuration, remove all original files from whitelist by rubenwardy |
| 19:00 |
rubenwardy |
I don't really have the time or energy to go through and fix all the edge cases |
| 19:05 |
rubenwardy |
draft guidelines for git triagers (ie: Wuzzy / Calinou): https://dev.minetest.net/Git_Guidelines#Issue_and_Pull-Request_Management |
| 19:14 |
Calinou |
looks good to me :) |
| 19:17 |
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| 19:18 |
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| 19:22 |
rubenwardy |
What is minetest-services on GitHub? |
| 19:23 |
rubenwardy |
nerzhul_ ^ |
| 19:29 |
rubenwardy |
merging trivial PR #9478 in 10 |
| 19:29 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/9478 -- Fix Media... 0% on loading screen by MoNTE48 |
| 19:29 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Error: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 4KB. |
| 19:31 |
rubenwardy |
and #10477 |
| 19:31 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Error: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 4KB. |
| 19:31 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10477 -- update jsoncpp to 1.9.4 by Zughy |
| 19:32 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, looks like ShadowBot needs fixing... |
| 19:33 |
Krock |
hello ShadowNinja \o/ |
| 19:33 |
rubenwardy |
oh hi |
| 19:34 |
ShadowNinja |
Hey Krock. |
| 19:38 |
ShadowNinja |
I've got a mapblock v29 RFC patchset that I've been working on a bit that I should finish at some point... |
| 19:38 |
rubenwardy |
what does that contain? |
| 19:41 |
ShadowNinja |
I've got an issue on GitHub that lists a bunch of improvements to the format. One new one that isn't on there is using zstd. That sound give a significant performance boost, and maybe a good compression boost, especially if I add dictionaries, but it also adds a new dependency, so there's a tradeoff. |
| 19:44 |
rubenwardy |
nice |
| 19:44 |
rubenwardy |
merging #10494 in 10 |
| 19:44 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Error: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 4KB. |
| 19:44 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10494 -- Add documentation to builtin core.run_callbacks by Desour |
| 19:52 |
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| 19:54 |
nore |
slight question for the core devs: is there anyone besides me who thinks an implementation of #5155 should be merged? we have talked about it for a long time, but there has never been any decision... |
| 19:54 |
ShadowBot |
nore: Error: That URL appears to have no HTML title within the first 4KB. |
| 19:54 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5155 -- Change light banks meaning |
| 19:55 |
rubenwardy |
yes, I think it is worth doing that - it makes certain algorithms easier |
| 19:55 |
rubenwardy |
but the compat will be painful |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
you can derive daytime and nighttime from sunlight and artificial, but you can't do the inverse. You need daytime and nighttime to have colored artificial light |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
well, I suppose you have have 3 channels for both day and night |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
will it? are light banks guaranteed in lua api? |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
I don't think param1 is guaranteed |
| 19:56 |
sfan5 |
other than that you "just" need a flag or mapblock version to do the recalculation |
| 19:56 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, and network compat to recalc |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
actually, maybe not that difficult |
| 19:57 |
sfan5 |
uh og yea |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
because you can derive daytime and nighttime from sunlight and artificial, the network compat shouldn't be too hard |
| 19:57 |
sfan5 |
what do new clients do that receive the old values? calculate themselves? |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
well, it might be expensive |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
I suppose |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
good point |
| 19:57 |
nore |
Yeah, the problem is old->new migration |
| 19:58 |
nore |
The clients could use an approximation for rendering on new versions when the server is old |
| 19:58 |
sfan5 |
sounds good |
| 19:59 |
rubenwardy |
GreenXenith actually worked on this |
| 19:59 |
nore |
(the approximation that is currently used when trying to compute sunlight from light banks) |
| 20:00 |
nore |
Less sure about colored light, there are quite a lot of people in favor of it, but it increases mapblock size quite a bit (probably?) |
| 20:00 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Not a whole lot |
| 20:00 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I believe ANAND did extensive calculations on how much a u16 would increase map size |
| 20:00 |
nore |
I think juhdanad had a working implementation of natural/artificial light |
| 20:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> As do I |
| 20:02 |
ShadowNinja |
ShadowBot: issue_msg https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10494 |
| 20:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10494 -- Add documentation to builtin core.run_callbacks by Desour |
| 20:02 |
ShadowNinja |
I've disabled the messageparser for now so that you don't get duplicat messages from pgimeno. |
| 20:03 |
nore |
(I think it's #5687) |
| 20:03 |
pgimeno |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5687 -- Artificial bank by juhdanad |
| 20:05 |
nore |
ShadowNinja: I guess you can enable it again, I think pgimeno's messages were only a temp fix until ShadowBot was fixed |
| 20:16 |
pgimeno |
indeed |
| 20:16 |
pgimeno |
if it's fixed already I'll disable it |
| 20:17 |
pgimeno |
done |
| 20:18 |
pgimeno |
@ShadowNinja ^ |
| 20:20 |
ShadowNinja |
Thanks, I've re-enabled it on ShadowBot. |
| 20:50 |
rubenwardy |
Krock: comments on #10152 ? |
| 20:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10152 -- Semi-transparent background for nametags by Zughy |
| 21:30 |
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