Time Nick Message
06:11 srifqi I've pushed bugfix and other thing to #7126.
06:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7126 -- Android: Replace movement buttons with joystick by srifqi
15:02 paramat i can be here for a meeting if there is one
15:02 rubenwardy same
15:10 Krock same
15:11 Krock I will do the overview page again.. and probably also try to lead the meeting unless someone else would like to :)
15:26 paramat #7218 is ready
15:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat
15:30 paramat maybe the meeting can be an hour later for the sake of nerzhul ?
15:34 Krock paramat, so 19:00 UTC or 20:00 UTC?
15:40 paramat i can do either so that depends on nerz and others
15:41 paramat it just seems nerz is eating usually, so maybe 20:00?
15:43 Krock paramat, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7218/files#diff-de0abb99d5d1ebb341608aa9d0040fdeR953 were those adjusted to keep the limits the dungeon size similar for the different biomes?
15:45 paramat yes this is a change of dungeon size for fallback dungeons (usually ice dungeons) i should have mentioned that. i prefer 2-wide corridors and slightly wider rooms for the fallback
15:45 paramat that size is the same as sandstone dungeons
15:47 paramat for the fallback i am trying to use a medium scale of dungeon. cobble dungeons are small and claustrophobic, desert temples are high and wide, sandstone dungeons are inbetween
15:49 Krock it's good to have some variety :)
15:52 paramat hm remember clocks have shifted (unfortunately and stupidly), in case 20 UTC is now to late for central europe
15:53 paramat BST = British Stupid Time
16:00 Krock so.. 20:00 BST/UTC+1? :D
16:01 rubenwardy what's that in the UK?
16:01 rubenwardy oh wait, nvm
16:04 paramat nerzhul nore sfan5 Shara sofar what UTC time is best for you if you can make it?
16:05 sfan5 same as alwys
16:05 sfan5 +a
16:05 Shara It's a weekend, so usually anything's fine for me :)
16:06 paramat i guess 19 CET is the usual?
16:08 paramat ah now it's CEST =/
16:19 rubenwardy what time is the meeting?
17:01 rubenwardy paramat:
17:01 paramat no idea
17:01 paramat how about in 1 hour?
17:08 paramat nerzhul could you do a meeting in 1 hour?
17:37 Krock srifqi, FYI: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7126#issuecomment-377770019 there's an image.. white on white. Just in case you thought it'd be a joke/april fool
17:39 srifqi I already realised that. :D
17:45 Krock good :)
17:49 Krock ah, these summer/winter timezones.. I have no clue how "usually" is defined
17:50 Krock nerzhul, nore, paramat, rubenwardy, sfan5, Shara, sofar. Would you have some time in half an hour for the meeting? I believe anything earlier will be too spontaneous
17:52 paramat oh my arrow image
17:52 Shara Sure
17:53 paramat i use custom colours on my browser, with a black background, so that arrow shows up correctly for me
17:54 paramat anyway yes i'm here from now onwards
17:55 Krock paramat, the image is also linked, so even on white background it's possible to see that there's an actual image
17:55 rubenwardy looks like empty space too me
17:55 rubenwardy but it's easy to realise
17:56 paramat hehe i made an unintended april fool
17:56 Krock Great, so we'll be at least four devs (if I count rubenwardy too) to do the meeting
17:59 Krock I've got a question in advance: Should we also include MTG pulls/discussions into the meetings again? I think that would be a good idea because all MTG devs have access to the team page
17:59 Krock and the follow-up question: What's to discuss there? I'm probably not up-do-date about what happens in that repo
18:00 rubenwardy Mobs, obviously
18:01 rubenwardy XD
18:01 rubenwardy the current main topics are tool balance, and that farming PR
18:02 Shara I think what's needed for farming is straight forward enough now
18:02 rubenwardy sure
18:02 Shara Don't see any issues other than the recipes anyway, and fixing that is a start toward tool balance
18:03 rubenwardy the way I'd want to fix tool balance would cause breakage, so it's better to just fix what we can
18:03 rubenwardy leave better tool systems to other games
18:03 Shara same problem I'm having with MTG tools
18:07 Krock okay, added to the list
18:10 Foz has the /shutdown command with a delay ever worked?
18:10 paramat yes discussing MTG is good for meeting, good chance
18:10 Krock Foz, probably only in 0.4.17-dev or 0.5.0-dev
18:11 Krock it's been a long time since our last release so it's easily possible that the fix was already merged months ago
18:12 paramat i'll merge #7218 later
18:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat
18:12 Foz builtin/game/chatcommands.lua line 827 seems very wrong
18:12 Foz local delay, reconnect, message = param:match("([^ ][-]?[0-9]+)([^ ]+)(.*)")
18:14 Krock the 2nd argument looks a bit weird indeed. shouldn't that accept a word like "true"? uhm..
18:14 Foz and the delay match must start with a non space character before the number
18:15 Foz but then it won't resolve to a number
18:16 Krock sorry? -1412 resolves to a number
18:17 Foz > param = "-1412"
18:17 Foz > delay, reconnect, message = param:match("([^ ][-]?[0-9]+)([^ ]+)(.*)")
18:17 Foz > print(delay, reconnect, message)
18:17 Foz -141 2
18:19 paramat meeting time
18:20 paramat about 0.4.17, apparently it's released in a week but that seems too soon. i still need to go through MTG and check what should be included in backports, and there is stuff to add to MTE backports. then what about testing?
18:20 Krock rubenwardy, Shara: We'd like to start the meeting ^
18:21 paramat maybe PR freeze in a week then a few days testing?
18:21 paramat anyway i see no need to rush, 2 weeks from now?
18:21 Krock So the question is how fast the backports can be updated to get us some time to test
18:22 paramat realistically it will take me a few days to go over MTG backports, i don't want to rush myself
18:23 Krock I'd say we're setting a date to when the backports should be complete, so we can focus on testing
18:23 Krock 2 weeks are of course a long time and luckily I've got some time then to test
18:24 paramat that sounds a good time then
18:24 paramat so you mean complete in 2 weeks? then test
18:24 paramat 21st april
18:25 Krock hat's not exactly what I meant. I've got more time than usual before release to test
18:26 paramat we should go over engine backports too and add any missing bugfixes
18:26 Krock so if the backports can be done in, say, 8 days that's surely enough time to test afterwards
18:26 paramat that's ok with me
18:27 paramat so essentially a freeze in a week
18:27 Krock exactly
18:28 paramat ok, i was concerned earlier about having testing done within a week too
18:28 Krock oh boy. I just looked at the forum post, where it looks like we'd rush in testing for only a few days
18:28 paramat so freeze on 15th april
18:29 paramat yes release on 15th is too soon
18:29 Krock to be fair, we also said this in December
18:30 paramat so, over the next week i'll go over MTG backports, check what should be there and anything that needs adding
18:32 srifqi Sorry to disturb, but please update translation. (^_^"
18:32 srifqi ... can we?
18:32 Krock heh, question is whether moving the release date again will be fine for the other devs. If we do, then it'll be the last date
18:32 Krock srifqi, of course. we have an update script somewhere
18:33 srifqi Is that updatepo.sh? .-.
18:33 paramat well rushing a release is always a mistake, it has to be the right time. but let's try to release in 2 weeks from now
18:35 Krock srifqi, exactly. Well great, I haven't worked with translations yet and the wiki page has not a single word for the process with them >.>
18:37 nerzhul hey, we can release core earlier than MTG if needed, bug android need both. Just edit the date when you have a good date
18:38 nerzhul don't try, we have an announcement
18:38 paramat well the announcement is too soon :]
18:39 paramat and MTG should be released at the same time, as always
18:39 nerzhul okay, just comment on it when you have a good date and i will edit
18:39 paramat about MTG tool balance, i'm considering making a post in the forums about a possible deprecation of bronze tools, leading to an eventual removal, since they are such a mess. copper, tin, bronze ingots wil be kept. the forum post will be to gauge how disruptive this will be, however i now feel a little breakage is worth it
18:40 * rubenwardy cries
18:40 Shara Hah
18:40 rubenwardy Bronze has real life progressional value
18:40 rubenwardy Like, the bronze age
18:40 rubenwardy There's no wood age
18:40 paramat the relevant issue is https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1681 for your later reading
18:41 rubenwardy No diamond age
18:41 paramat well, yes, but you know it's a mess and bronze tools were a mistake :)
18:41 nerzhul i really like having real life things in a MC/MT game :)
18:42 rubenwardy The issue isn't bronze tools
18:42 Shara The problem is bronze doesn't fit as it is... but making it fit would involve breakage
18:42 rubenwardy The issue is how easy it is to get to steel tools with skipping
18:42 Krock wooden tools are generally useless but still offered because stone requires a pickaxe to be mined
18:43 Shara Tree punching...
18:43 Krock however, bronze is a good material which was actually used in the past
18:43 paramat well, it's just a suggestion, i'm not too bothered, but there are good reasons to do so, see the thread
18:44 Shara Would be good to know if anyone had any way (short of rewriting the whole tool system) to make the bronze tools worthwhile
18:44 paramat i would like to remove wood tools too i agree, but that may be more disruptive, and need new ores (loose rock nodes)
18:45 Krock speeding up and making the bronze tools a little more durable wouldn't solve the problem then?
18:45 nerzhul wood tool is a early game tool, i think all those discussion are too near releasing
18:46 paramat it's not for release
18:48 paramat krock well bronze can't be > steel, but is currently, but then see the ore depths. essentially bronze tools make mess of everything, as has been known for a long time
18:48 paramat anyway this will get too bikesheddy for meeting :)
18:49 paramat i shouldn't have mentioned it heh
18:49 Fixer i would rather keep wood, stone, steel, diamond and remove everything else in all tools, imagine introducing armour into that, we will have 6 tiers of helmets, leggings, etc?
18:49 Krock we're having the meeting to discuss such topics (as long it doesn't take too long)
18:50 paramat so, freeze in a week, then test? agreed?
18:51 Krock Fixer, I have also seen your suggestion for that in the issue linked above but I certainly disagree, as more tools add variety. This could be (as already mentioned) intensified by more different tool behaviour
18:51 Krock as in: special durability, very fast speed or limited to a certain hardness
18:52 paramat we have too much tool variety
18:52 Krock paramat, for my part that's acceptable
18:52 Krock too much? A few comments are mentioning that they're lacking of special effects
18:53 Krock nerzhul, we can't release MTE earlier. The binaries are always bundled with the MTG version
18:53 paramat for bronze to make sense it would have to be < steel and iron ore much deeper than copper and tin
18:53 Shara As a random observation, I was looking at some other game that manages to have about 40 digging tools, without it ever feeling too much. So I started wondering why MTG, with so many fewer, feels like too many. And yes, it's mostly about abilities not being at all different.
18:54 Shara Also the progression is very straight forward, with many being easy to skip.
18:54 Shara What if bronze for example had longer reach?
18:54 Krock so some kind of enchanting feature or level-up would be required then?
18:54 Shara Suddenly the extra effort involved in crafting might not be terrible
18:55 paramat i also don't see a need to fill the progression gap between stone and steel in a simple game. iron ore is just under the surface after all
18:55 paramat however, on that subject, i would like to make iron ore a little deeper as it is insanely easy to find at y = 0
18:55 Shara Maybe if it had extra reach and more durability, it wouldn't need to be quicker than steel, could even be slightly slower.
18:55 Krock we're declaring iron as steel and putting bronze above steel whereas it would only be better than iron. That's like the entire plot of the bronze tool story
18:56 Shara bronze tools were easier to repair (so more durability makes sense)
18:56 Shara But weaker... (so make them slower than steel)
18:57 Shara Then +1 to range to balance the extra difficulty.
18:57 Shara That's the best I've got anyway
18:57 Krock Shara, that's a good idea which in my opinion can solve this issue
18:58 Shara This type of thing could also give more mese and diamond their own strengths
18:58 Shara speed vs. range
18:59 Krock the range is probably not the best parameter in terms of "staying close to reality" but adds an important variety/advantage
18:59 Shara Of course, but in gameplay one extra node of reach can be a big deal
18:59 Fixer Krock: special abilities can be nice, if it is fantasy like
18:59 Shara Also in survival, hand has default range of 4... and tool has 4?
18:59 Krock it must not even be an entire node, but may also be a fraction (4.5)
19:00 Krock ^ at least I hope we're working with floats (!)
19:00 Shara heh
19:00 Shara I'd give it a full node extra
19:01 Shara It's also not unrealistic that a tool would give you more reach than you have without one
19:02 Shara So I don't think realise is an issue in adding +1 to range
19:02 paramat personally i'd rather simplify, tools are already too complex
19:02 Shara That change isn't complex at all
19:04 Krock a few changed lines and done
19:05 Shara And removes any need to change ore depths (though as a seperate thing, I agree iron doesn't need to start so high up)
19:08 paramat sorry, i don't mean range
19:09 paramat just general special abilities. i'm not keen on range increase as it makes little sense for one material over another
19:10 Shara I'd argue it makes more sense than us having a tool no one could care to use :)
19:10 paramat what i mean is, instead of adding more stuff to justify a mistake, simplify instead
19:10 Shara It's already ridiculously simple, but okay, I'll leave it to you
19:10 paramat well yes, but i'm suggesting removing bronze tools, not keeping them as is
19:13 paramat what about #6951 ? apparently it doesn't remove the need to secure builtin, but still a good idea?
19:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6951 -- [CSM] Don't create the script environment if CSM is disabled by red-001
19:15 Krock the PR itself is ok, but needs action from the author
19:15 paramat red-001
19:16 Krock we also had this in the 180310 meeting... with the same situation
19:16 paramat hmm it's close to neglect closure now
19:16 paramat added 'adoption needed' rubenwardy interested?
19:17 rubenwardy That pr doesn't make sense with server sending, as you can just edit built in then
19:18 paramat related comment https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6925#issuecomment-375861184
19:18 paramat saying the same thing it seems
19:19 paramat #6925 needs doing
19:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6925 -- Secure builtin CSM code against modification
19:19 Fixer not only bronze, but maybe mese tools as well
19:20 paramat yes mese is close in ability to diamond
19:20 paramat personally i would only have one tier above steel
19:21 paramat maybe
19:23 rubenwardy Remove diamond
19:23 rubenwardy At least mese makes sense
19:23 paramat (but i'm thinking simple game here)
19:23 Fixer it is the question on how to phase it out gracefully
19:23 paramat yes mese came first :)
19:24 Krock rubenwardy, or again there - using the range or durability to make the mese pickaxe better in a few places, the diamond pick better in others
19:24 paramat but, not sure we can do this now. MTG is largely a mess beyond repair
19:24 rubenwardy Are yess
19:25 rubenwardy Diamond could be stronger
19:25 rubenwardy But mese further range, as it's special
19:25 Krock removing the tools we have only causes more legacy code which is a PITA
19:25 paramat i mean without legacy code
19:26 Shara rubenwardy: that's exactly what I am thinking
19:26 Fixer i've suggested adding special ability to bronze and mese? you can consider this too
19:26 paramat it's a case of how much mod breakage is acceptable
19:26 Krock the alien mese pickaxe which can attract ores (instead of humans) from a certain distance using wobbly bobbly waves :)
19:26 paramat mese is mysterious so extra range makes sense there
19:26 Krock I fully support that idea :)
19:26 Shara Make bronze/mese have range and durability, and steel/diamond be faster (stronger and so break things more quickly)
19:27 paramat lol
19:27 Shara Steel is harder to repair than bronze... I'd imagine a smashed diamond is also harder to repair than weird wonderful mese
19:29 Krock added the mese idea to the discussion post. I'd like to continue now with a PR before nobody's got time anymore
19:30 Shara It has my support
19:30 Krock #7116 feature. quite simple but I wonder whether we want to deal with the errors using the motto "it's a compat breaking release" or do a workaround again
19:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7116 -- Formspecs: Add a <use_color_alpha> parameter to the box[] element by Thomas--S
19:31 Krock it's a decorative formspec element for eyecandy
19:32 Krock but yet we're displaying the errors in-game and on-screen in singleplayer worlds as soon they appear
19:34 Krock not displaying the box has no effect on playability but causes the said error
19:34 rubenwardy The better solution is to detect usage of alpha
19:34 paramat why is backwards compat a problem? now's the time for it?
19:35 rubenwardy Like, use the current alpha if none is given
19:35 rubenwardy Otherwise use the alpha given
19:35 Krock paramat, the issue is that we somehow want to keep the mod compatibility and formspecs overlap
19:36 Krock overlap as in: 0.4.17 and 0.5.0 should in about support the same formspec code
19:37 Krock unless we want to force modders to adjust the formspecs depending on the client version
19:38 Krock rubenwardy, I also thought about it -- would need a re-design of the ColorString reading function
19:38 paramat aha of course
19:38 rubenwardy Extra parameter for default alpha
19:40 Krock brb - 10 minutes (hopefully less)
19:41 rubenwardy I'm cooking to will be responding intermittently
19:42 rubenwardy *so
19:43 paramat closed #6951 until progress, doesn't seem so essential now
19:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6951 -- [CSM] Don't create the script environment if CSM is disabled by red-001
19:43 * paramat is cooking ruben
19:45 * rdococ deep-fries a paramat
19:46 paramat recursive cooking
19:46 paramat shall we close #4492 ?
19:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4492 -- More user-friendly group names
19:46 rdococ if you support tail recursion then you can resolve the recursive cooking into iterative cooking
19:47 rubenwardy Quorn curry
19:47 rubenwardy Did I mention, I'm an Arch Linux?
19:48 rubenwardy I also run vegan
19:48 rubenwardy Nah, I'm just too lazy to prepare chicken
19:49 rdococ lol
19:49 Cornelia Lolol
19:49 rdococ Lolinux
19:54 paramat another possible close (2 disapprovals) #3204
19:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3204 -- Load mod from .zip
19:56 paramat close #4447 ? not reproduced for 1.5 years
19:56 Cornelia Loading from zip could be interesting.. just not sure it's something really needed.
19:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4447 -- Encoding issues with some window managers
20:00 rubenwardy Yeah to both
20:02 paramat ok
20:08 Krock rubenwardy, regarding the box[ PR, could you please explain your idea as a comment there?
20:09 rubenwardy Done
20:09 rubenwardy Already :p
20:10 Krock oh I see. thanks :)
20:14 paramat hm i wonder if there should be a time limit on feature requests. if one has no dev interest for 3+ years i'm not sure there's a point
20:17 paramat #34
20:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/34 -- Feature request: reload config files when SIGHUPped.
20:18 paramat after a time the requester has probably moved on
20:19 paramat lol
20:20 Krock paramat, we did it. congrats
20:20 paramat wow we both closed it simultaneously
20:20 Krock *high five*
20:20 paramat spooky
20:22 paramat still says that after refresh, amazing
20:23 rubenwardy Wow
20:24 Krock it'll need two simultaneous open requests to unlock 8)
20:24 Krock probably not but it would be amazing
20:25 Krock #247 should be kept open. bendeutsch is working on the server-sided movement, which makes this soon possible
20:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/247 -- on_walk_over()
20:25 paramat yes agreed, just commented
20:26 paramat there are other ways to code it too
20:27 paramat many old feature requests have good reason to stay open
20:40 paramat i might go through them and add 'possible close' to some
20:41 paramat it seems perhaps 3 years is a 'long time' in MT, unfortunately 2 years is not a long time in MT dev =)
21:01 paramat will merge #7218 in 5 mins
21:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat
21:07 paramat merging
21:10 paramat or rather, meowging
21:12 paramat done
21:12 Shara :D
21:12 Shara Really happy to see that one in