Time Nick Message 06:11 srifqi I've pushed bugfix and other thing to #7126. 06:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7126 -- Android: Replace movement buttons with joystick by srifqi 15:02 paramat i can be here for a meeting if there is one 15:02 rubenwardy same 15:10 Krock same 15:11 Krock I will do the overview page again.. and probably also try to lead the meeting unless someone else would like to :) 15:26 paramat #7218 is ready 15:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat 15:30 paramat maybe the meeting can be an hour later for the sake of nerzhul ? 15:34 Krock paramat, so 19:00 UTC or 20:00 UTC? 15:40 paramat i can do either so that depends on nerz and others 15:41 paramat it just seems nerz is eating usually, so maybe 20:00? 15:43 Krock paramat, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7218/files#diff-de0abb99d5d1ebb341608aa9d0040fdeR953 were those adjusted to keep the limits the dungeon size similar for the different biomes? 15:45 paramat yes this is a change of dungeon size for fallback dungeons (usually ice dungeons) i should have mentioned that. i prefer 2-wide corridors and slightly wider rooms for the fallback 15:45 paramat that size is the same as sandstone dungeons 15:47 paramat for the fallback i am trying to use a medium scale of dungeon. cobble dungeons are small and claustrophobic, desert temples are high and wide, sandstone dungeons are inbetween 15:49 Krock it's good to have some variety :) 15:52 paramat hm remember clocks have shifted (unfortunately and stupidly), in case 20 UTC is now to late for central europe 15:53 paramat BST = British Stupid Time 16:00 Krock so.. 20:00 BST/UTC+1? :D 16:01 rubenwardy what's that in the UK? 16:01 rubenwardy oh wait, nvm 16:04 paramat nerzhul nore sfan5 Shara sofar what UTC time is best for you if you can make it? 16:05 sfan5 same as alwys 16:05 sfan5 +a 16:05 Shara It's a weekend, so usually anything's fine for me :) 16:06 paramat i guess 19 CET is the usual? 16:08 paramat ah now it's CEST =/ 16:19 rubenwardy what time is the meeting? 17:01 rubenwardy paramat: 17:01 paramat no idea 17:01 paramat how about in 1 hour? 17:08 paramat nerzhul could you do a meeting in 1 hour? 17:37 Krock srifqi, FYI: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7126#issuecomment-377770019 there's an image.. white on white. Just in case you thought it'd be a joke/april fool 17:39 srifqi I already realised that. :D 17:45 Krock good :) 17:49 Krock ah, these summer/winter timezones.. I have no clue how "usually" is defined 17:50 Krock nerzhul, nore, paramat, rubenwardy, sfan5, Shara, sofar. Would you have some time in half an hour for the meeting? I believe anything earlier will be too spontaneous 17:52 paramat oh my arrow image 17:52 Shara Sure 17:53 paramat i use custom colours on my browser, with a black background, so that arrow shows up correctly for me 17:54 paramat anyway yes i'm here from now onwards 17:55 Krock paramat, the image is also linked, so even on white background it's possible to see that there's an actual image 17:55 rubenwardy looks like empty space too me 17:55 rubenwardy but it's easy to realise 17:56 paramat hehe i made an unintended april fool 17:56 Krock Great, so we'll be at least four devs (if I count rubenwardy too) to do the meeting 17:59 Krock I've got a question in advance: Should we also include MTG pulls/discussions into the meetings again? I think that would be a good idea because all MTG devs have access to the team page 17:59 Krock and the follow-up question: What's to discuss there? I'm probably not up-do-date about what happens in that repo 18:00 rubenwardy Mobs, obviously 18:01 rubenwardy XD 18:01 rubenwardy the current main topics are tool balance, and that farming PR 18:02 Shara I think what's needed for farming is straight forward enough now 18:02 rubenwardy sure 18:02 Shara Don't see any issues other than the recipes anyway, and fixing that is a start toward tool balance 18:03 rubenwardy the way I'd want to fix tool balance would cause breakage, so it's better to just fix what we can 18:03 rubenwardy leave better tool systems to other games 18:03 Shara same problem I'm having with MTG tools 18:07 Krock okay, added to the list 18:10 Foz has the /shutdown command with a delay ever worked? 18:10 paramat yes discussing MTG is good for meeting, good chance 18:10 Krock Foz, probably only in 0.4.17-dev or 0.5.0-dev 18:11 Krock it's been a long time since our last release so it's easily possible that the fix was already merged months ago 18:12 paramat i'll merge #7218 later 18:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat 18:12 Foz builtin/game/chatcommands.lua line 827 seems very wrong 18:12 Foz local delay, reconnect, message = param:match("([^ ][-]?[0-9]+)([^ ]+)(.*)") 18:14 Krock the 2nd argument looks a bit weird indeed. shouldn't that accept a word like "true"? uhm.. 18:14 Foz and the delay match must start with a non space character before the number 18:15 Foz but then it won't resolve to a number 18:16 Krock sorry? -1412 resolves to a number 18:17 Foz > param = "-1412" 18:17 Foz > delay, reconnect, message = param:match("([^ ][-]?[0-9]+)([^ ]+)(.*)") 18:17 Foz > print(delay, reconnect, message) 18:17 Foz -141 2 18:19 paramat meeting time 18:20 paramat about 0.4.17, apparently it's released in a week but that seems too soon. i still need to go through MTG and check what should be included in backports, and there is stuff to add to MTE backports. then what about testing? 18:20 Krock rubenwardy, Shara: We'd like to start the meeting ^ 18:21 paramat maybe PR freeze in a week then a few days testing? 18:21 paramat anyway i see no need to rush, 2 weeks from now? 18:21 Krock So the question is how fast the backports can be updated to get us some time to test 18:22 paramat realistically it will take me a few days to go over MTG backports, i don't want to rush myself 18:23 Krock I'd say we're setting a date to when the backports should be complete, so we can focus on testing 18:23 Krock 2 weeks are of course a long time and luckily I've got some time then to test 18:24 paramat that sounds a good time then 18:24 paramat so you mean complete in 2 weeks? then test 18:24 paramat 21st april 18:25 Krock hat's not exactly what I meant. I've got more time than usual before release to test 18:26 paramat we should go over engine backports too and add any missing bugfixes 18:26 Krock so if the backports can be done in, say, 8 days that's surely enough time to test afterwards 18:26 paramat that's ok with me 18:27 paramat so essentially a freeze in a week 18:27 Krock exactly 18:28 paramat ok, i was concerned earlier about having testing done within a week too 18:28 Krock oh boy. I just looked at the forum post, where it looks like we'd rush in testing for only a few days 18:28 paramat so freeze on 15th april 18:29 paramat yes release on 15th is too soon 18:29 Krock to be fair, we also said this in December 18:30 paramat so, over the next week i'll go over MTG backports, check what should be there and anything that needs adding 18:32 srifqi Sorry to disturb, but please update translation. (^_^" 18:32 srifqi ... can we? 18:32 Krock heh, question is whether moving the release date again will be fine for the other devs. If we do, then it'll be the last date 18:32 Krock srifqi, of course. we have an update script somewhere 18:33 srifqi Is that updatepo.sh? .-. 18:33 paramat well rushing a release is always a mistake, it has to be the right time. but let's try to release in 2 weeks from now 18:35 Krock srifqi, exactly. Well great, I haven't worked with translations yet and the wiki page has not a single word for the process with them >.> 18:37 nerzhul hey, we can release core earlier than MTG if needed, bug android need both. Just edit the date when you have a good date 18:38 nerzhul don't try, we have an announcement 18:38 paramat well the announcement is too soon :] 18:39 paramat and MTG should be released at the same time, as always 18:39 nerzhul okay, just comment on it when you have a good date and i will edit 18:39 paramat about MTG tool balance, i'm considering making a post in the forums about a possible deprecation of bronze tools, leading to an eventual removal, since they are such a mess. copper, tin, bronze ingots wil be kept. the forum post will be to gauge how disruptive this will be, however i now feel a little breakage is worth it 18:40 * rubenwardy cries 18:40 Shara Hah 18:40 rubenwardy Bronze has real life progressional value 18:40 rubenwardy Like, the bronze age 18:40 rubenwardy There's no wood age 18:40 paramat the relevant issue is https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1681 for your later reading 18:41 rubenwardy No diamond age 18:41 paramat well, yes, but you know it's a mess and bronze tools were a mistake :) 18:41 nerzhul i really like having real life things in a MC/MT game :) 18:42 rubenwardy The issue isn't bronze tools 18:42 Shara The problem is bronze doesn't fit as it is... but making it fit would involve breakage 18:42 rubenwardy The issue is how easy it is to get to steel tools with skipping 18:42 Krock wooden tools are generally useless but still offered because stone requires a pickaxe to be mined 18:43 Shara Tree punching... 18:43 Krock however, bronze is a good material which was actually used in the past 18:43 paramat well, it's just a suggestion, i'm not too bothered, but there are good reasons to do so, see the thread 18:44 Shara Would be good to know if anyone had any way (short of rewriting the whole tool system) to make the bronze tools worthwhile 18:44 paramat i would like to remove wood tools too i agree, but that may be more disruptive, and need new ores (loose rock nodes) 18:45 Krock speeding up and making the bronze tools a little more durable wouldn't solve the problem then? 18:45 nerzhul wood tool is a early game tool, i think all those discussion are too near releasing 18:46 paramat it's not for release 18:48 paramat krock well bronze can't be > steel, but is currently, but then see the ore depths. essentially bronze tools make mess of everything, as has been known for a long time 18:48 paramat anyway this will get too bikesheddy for meeting :) 18:49 paramat i shouldn't have mentioned it heh 18:49 Fixer i would rather keep wood, stone, steel, diamond and remove everything else in all tools, imagine introducing armour into that, we will have 6 tiers of helmets, leggings, etc? 18:49 Krock we're having the meeting to discuss such topics (as long it doesn't take too long) 18:50 paramat so, freeze in a week, then test? agreed? 18:51 Krock Fixer, I have also seen your suggestion for that in the issue linked above but I certainly disagree, as more tools add variety. This could be (as already mentioned) intensified by more different tool behaviour 18:51 Krock as in: special durability, very fast speed or limited to a certain hardness 18:52 paramat we have too much tool variety 18:52 Krock paramat, for my part that's acceptable 18:52 Krock too much? A few comments are mentioning that they're lacking of special effects 18:53 Krock nerzhul, we can't release MTE earlier. The binaries are always bundled with the MTG version 18:53 paramat for bronze to make sense it would have to be < steel and iron ore much deeper than copper and tin 18:53 Shara As a random observation, I was looking at some other game that manages to have about 40 digging tools, without it ever feeling too much. So I started wondering why MTG, with so many fewer, feels like too many. And yes, it's mostly about abilities not being at all different. 18:54 Shara Also the progression is very straight forward, with many being easy to skip. 18:54 Shara What if bronze for example had longer reach? 18:54 Krock so some kind of enchanting feature or level-up would be required then? 18:54 Shara Suddenly the extra effort involved in crafting might not be terrible 18:55 paramat i also don't see a need to fill the progression gap between stone and steel in a simple game. iron ore is just under the surface after all 18:55 paramat however, on that subject, i would like to make iron ore a little deeper as it is insanely easy to find at y = 0 18:55 Shara Maybe if it had extra reach and more durability, it wouldn't need to be quicker than steel, could even be slightly slower. 18:55 Krock we're declaring iron as steel and putting bronze above steel whereas it would only be better than iron. That's like the entire plot of the bronze tool story 18:56 Shara bronze tools were easier to repair (so more durability makes sense) 18:56 Shara But weaker... (so make them slower than steel) 18:57 Shara Then +1 to range to balance the extra difficulty. 18:57 Shara That's the best I've got anyway 18:57 Krock Shara, that's a good idea which in my opinion can solve this issue 18:58 Shara This type of thing could also give more mese and diamond their own strengths 18:58 Shara speed vs. range 18:59 Krock the range is probably not the best parameter in terms of "staying close to reality" but adds an important variety/advantage 18:59 Shara Of course, but in gameplay one extra node of reach can be a big deal 18:59 Fixer Krock: special abilities can be nice, if it is fantasy like 18:59 Shara Also in survival, hand has default range of 4... and tool has 4? 18:59 Krock it must not even be an entire node, but may also be a fraction (4.5) 19:00 Krock ^ at least I hope we're working with floats (!) 19:00 Shara heh 19:00 Shara I'd give it a full node extra 19:01 Shara It's also not unrealistic that a tool would give you more reach than you have without one 19:02 Shara So I don't think realise is an issue in adding +1 to range 19:02 paramat personally i'd rather simplify, tools are already too complex 19:02 Shara That change isn't complex at all 19:04 Krock a few changed lines and done 19:05 Shara And removes any need to change ore depths (though as a seperate thing, I agree iron doesn't need to start so high up) 19:08 paramat sorry, i don't mean range 19:09 paramat just general special abilities. i'm not keen on range increase as it makes little sense for one material over another 19:10 Shara I'd argue it makes more sense than us having a tool no one could care to use :) 19:10 paramat what i mean is, instead of adding more stuff to justify a mistake, simplify instead 19:10 Shara It's already ridiculously simple, but okay, I'll leave it to you 19:10 paramat well yes, but i'm suggesting removing bronze tools, not keeping them as is 19:13 paramat what about #6951 ? apparently it doesn't remove the need to secure builtin, but still a good idea? 19:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6951 -- [CSM] Don't create the script environment if CSM is disabled by red-001 19:15 Krock the PR itself is ok, but needs action from the author 19:15 paramat red-001 19:16 Krock we also had this in the 180310 meeting... with the same situation 19:16 paramat hmm it's close to neglect closure now 19:16 paramat added 'adoption needed' rubenwardy interested? 19:17 rubenwardy That pr doesn't make sense with server sending, as you can just edit built in then 19:18 paramat related comment https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6925#issuecomment-375861184 19:18 paramat saying the same thing it seems 19:19 paramat #6925 needs doing 19:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6925 -- Secure builtin CSM code against modification 19:19 Fixer not only bronze, but maybe mese tools as well 19:20 paramat yes mese is close in ability to diamond 19:20 paramat personally i would only have one tier above steel 19:21 paramat maybe 19:23 rubenwardy Remove diamond 19:23 rubenwardy At least mese makes sense 19:23 paramat (but i'm thinking simple game here) 19:23 Fixer it is the question on how to phase it out gracefully 19:23 paramat yes mese came first :) 19:24 Krock rubenwardy, or again there - using the range or durability to make the mese pickaxe better in a few places, the diamond pick better in others 19:24 paramat but, not sure we can do this now. MTG is largely a mess beyond repair 19:24 rubenwardy Are yess 19:25 rubenwardy Diamond could be stronger 19:25 rubenwardy But mese further range, as it's special 19:25 Krock removing the tools we have only causes more legacy code which is a PITA 19:25 paramat i mean without legacy code 19:26 Shara rubenwardy: that's exactly what I am thinking 19:26 Fixer i've suggested adding special ability to bronze and mese? you can consider this too 19:26 paramat it's a case of how much mod breakage is acceptable 19:26 Krock the alien mese pickaxe which can attract ores (instead of humans) from a certain distance using wobbly bobbly waves :) 19:26 paramat mese is mysterious so extra range makes sense there 19:26 Krock I fully support that idea :) 19:26 Shara Make bronze/mese have range and durability, and steel/diamond be faster (stronger and so break things more quickly) 19:27 paramat lol 19:27 Shara Steel is harder to repair than bronze... I'd imagine a smashed diamond is also harder to repair than weird wonderful mese 19:29 Krock added the mese idea to the discussion post. I'd like to continue now with a PR before nobody's got time anymore 19:30 Shara It has my support 19:30 Krock #7116 feature. quite simple but I wonder whether we want to deal with the errors using the motto "it's a compat breaking release" or do a workaround again 19:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7116 -- Formspecs: Add a parameter to the box[] element by Thomas--S 19:31 Krock it's a decorative formspec element for eyecandy 19:32 Krock but yet we're displaying the errors in-game and on-screen in singleplayer worlds as soon they appear 19:34 Krock not displaying the box has no effect on playability but causes the said error 19:34 rubenwardy The better solution is to detect usage of alpha 19:34 paramat why is backwards compat a problem? now's the time for it? 19:35 rubenwardy Like, use the current alpha if none is given 19:35 rubenwardy Otherwise use the alpha given 19:35 Krock paramat, the issue is that we somehow want to keep the mod compatibility and formspecs overlap 19:36 Krock overlap as in: 0.4.17 and 0.5.0 should in about support the same formspec code 19:37 Krock unless we want to force modders to adjust the formspecs depending on the client version 19:38 Krock rubenwardy, I also thought about it -- would need a re-design of the ColorString reading function 19:38 paramat aha of course 19:38 rubenwardy Extra parameter for default alpha 19:40 Krock brb - 10 minutes (hopefully less) 19:41 rubenwardy I'm cooking to will be responding intermittently 19:42 rubenwardy *so 19:43 paramat closed #6951 until progress, doesn't seem so essential now 19:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6951 -- [CSM] Don't create the script environment if CSM is disabled by red-001 19:43 * paramat is cooking ruben 19:45 * rdococ deep-fries a paramat 19:46 paramat recursive cooking 19:46 paramat shall we close #4492 ? 19:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4492 -- More user-friendly group names 19:46 rdococ if you support tail recursion then you can resolve the recursive cooking into iterative cooking 19:47 rubenwardy Quorn curry 19:47 rubenwardy Did I mention, I'm an Arch Linux? 19:48 rubenwardy I also run vegan 19:48 rubenwardy Nah, I'm just too lazy to prepare chicken 19:49 rdococ lol 19:49 Cornelia Lolol 19:49 rdococ Lolinux 19:54 paramat another possible close (2 disapprovals) #3204 19:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3204 -- Load mod from .zip 19:56 paramat close #4447 ? not reproduced for 1.5 years 19:56 Cornelia Loading from zip could be interesting.. just not sure it's something really needed. 19:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4447 -- Encoding issues with some window managers 20:00 rubenwardy Yeah to both 20:02 paramat ok 20:08 Krock rubenwardy, regarding the box[ PR, could you please explain your idea as a comment there? 20:09 rubenwardy Done 20:09 rubenwardy Already :p 20:10 Krock oh I see. thanks :) 20:14 paramat hm i wonder if there should be a time limit on feature requests. if one has no dev interest for 3+ years i'm not sure there's a point 20:17 paramat #34 20:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/34 -- Feature request: reload config files when SIGHUPped. 20:18 paramat after a time the requester has probably moved on 20:19 paramat lol 20:20 Krock paramat, we did it. congrats 20:20 paramat wow we both closed it simultaneously 20:20 Krock *high five* 20:20 paramat spooky 20:22 paramat still says that after refresh, amazing 20:23 rubenwardy Wow 20:24 Krock it'll need two simultaneous open requests to unlock 8) 20:24 Krock probably not but it would be amazing 20:25 Krock #247 should be kept open. bendeutsch is working on the server-sided movement, which makes this soon possible 20:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/247 -- on_walk_over() 20:25 paramat yes agreed, just commented 20:26 paramat there are other ways to code it too 20:27 paramat many old feature requests have good reason to stay open 20:40 paramat i might go through them and add 'possible close' to some 20:41 paramat it seems perhaps 3 years is a 'long time' in MT, unfortunately 2 years is not a long time in MT dev =) 21:01 paramat will merge #7218 in 5 mins 21:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7218 -- Biome API / dungeons: Add biome-defined dungeon nodes by paramat 21:07 paramat merging 21:10 paramat or rather, meowging 21:12 paramat done 21:12 Shara :D 21:12 Shara Really happy to see that one in