Time  Nick       Message
09:27 nore       #6324
09:27 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6324 -- Statbars: fix incorrect half-images in non-standard orientations by Ekdohibs
13:01 rubenwardy merging #6315 in 5 minutes
13:01 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6315 -- More readable Default Controls in README by lupoDharkael
13:03 nore       rubenwardy: ok
13:09 paramat    wow number of issues dropped, great work
13:10 nore       #6324 should kill another issue
13:10 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6324 -- Statbars: fix incorrect half-images in non-standard orientations by Ekdohibs
13:11 rubenwardy mergin...
13:13 rubenwardy paramat, I closed like 50 the other day
13:14 paramat    yes thought it was you :D
13:15 paramat    i'll try to sweep through them again sometime
14:16 paramat    is #4912 actually fixable in MT?
14:16 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4912 -- Pixels flicker on nodes when using Minetest without shaders
14:18 rubenwardy Irrlicht issues our usually our issues
14:18 rubenwardy except GUI and Input
14:20 Fixer      <YuGiOhJCJ> hello, on SONOF Raspberry Pi server, with Minetest 0.4.16 and Irrlicht 1.8.1, my client often crashes after playing some minutes: https://pastebin.com/QzujXh7Q do you know why?
14:23 sfan5      Fixer: probably because the GL driver on the pi is experimental
14:23 sfan5      if you want properly running mt on a pi you'll need to fight with the gles/egl stuff
15:36 paramat    please can we close #6322 ?
15:36 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6322 -- Collaboration with Terasology project?
15:38 sfan5      i'd keep it open for now
15:49 paramat    people can still discuss it if its closed :]
15:50 sfan5      no that's dumb
15:51 rubenwardy leave it open for now
15:51 juhdanad   There is place for collaboration. For example allowing the other project to use some algorithms from there.
15:52 rubenwardy juhdanad, that's a good point. Worth suggesting that
15:53 juhdanad   I also thought they could help making our Android port better, but they don't have an Android version.
15:54 sfan5      their heavy shaders won't work on any mobile GPU anyway
16:04 paramat    and they're Java
16:04 rubenwardy algorithms translate across languages though
16:05 paramat    yes, i was referring to Android
16:05 rubenwardy oh ah
16:05 rubenwardy well, our Java part is very very thin
16:05 rubenwardy it's an NDK application, so most of the Android features are in C++
16:05 paramat    now the author is attacking me, good grief
16:07 paramat    kilbith joining in, unsurprisingly
16:10 sfan5      paramat: shaders are not written in java
16:11 sfan5      not that it matters any for interoperability
16:11 paramat    anyway, i guess it could be left open for a while, but it seems like a waste of time, if a dev of either project wants to work with the other project they will, it can't be forced, discussion seems pointless
16:12 paramat    ruben me too, but we're doing ok
16:13 rubenwardy I agree it's mostly pointless, but immediately closing does give a bad impression. The guy is trying to help
16:13 sfan5      ^ this
16:13 rubenwardy one of the big worries I have about Minetest is us becoming stagnated - lots of good developers have left recently (hmmmm, est31, T4im, etc)
16:14 rubenwardy so I feel that there is a need to make development easier by cleaning, simplifying, and decouplying code
16:14 rubenwardy and also documenting more
16:15 rubenwardy but as always, there's too much to balance
16:18 paramat    i agree
16:18 paramat    i'm ok with it being open for a while :]
16:19 celeron55  i've never worried whether minetest will do well or not; it's simply not a goal or a non-goal to me
16:19 celeron55  it's kind of superficial
16:20 paramat    it's doing very well, better than ever
16:20 paramat    we just don't have a large number of devs, so stuff moves slowly
16:22 rubenwardy the project is currently doing pretty well
16:22 Krock      merging #5445 and #6318 in 10 mins
16:22 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5445 -- lua API for deregistering single biomes by zeuner
16:22 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6318 -- core.get_objects_inside_radius: Omit removed objects by HybridDog
16:22 rubenwardy but that's mostly due to paramat and nerzhul
16:23 paramat    i'm concerned about T4im, there was a sudden stop in his Github activity while he was enthusiastically involved, hope he's ok
16:24 nore       can someone review almost-trivial #6324 btw?
16:24 rubenwardy i noticed that too
16:24 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6324 -- Statbars: fix incorrect half-images in non-standard orientations by Ekdohibs
16:26 celeron55  developers leaving isn't strictly a bad thing, it gives a lot of flex to development in a loosely lead project like this and it's much easier to set new directions... like 0.5.0
16:26 paramat    i asked lhofhansl if he was still ok for being a dev but have not had a response
16:26 rubenwardy devs leaving isn't a problem as long as it's not due to a "bad" reason
16:26 paramat    and juhdanad is another one to keep in mind
16:26 rubenwardy bad meaning our fault
16:26 rubenwardy paramat, either of those are fine by me
16:27 nore       paramat: hmm btw are you still against #5687 now since we are breaking backwards compatibility for 0.5?
16:27 celeron55  it's worth trying to understand why each person left of course
16:27 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5687 -- Artificial bank by juhdanad
16:27 paramat    lhof said he was ok with it at one point before, i just wnated to check again
16:27 Krock      nore, will test.
16:27 nore       Krock: thanks
16:27 paramat    i still don't like 5687
16:28 celeron55  rubenwardy: do you suppose there was a big fault from MT's part?
16:28 paramat    such a change in map format needs more justification
16:28 rubenwardy I'm not sure, celeron55
16:28 juhdanad   5687 has a critical bug: conversion from old to new format sometimes creates dark map blocks. I don't know the cause, any help is appreciated.
16:29 celeron55  OC mixed things so much that i'm not sure i could pinpoint anything for this year
16:29 paramat    it wasn't MTs fault for hmmmm, est or zeno
16:29 juhdanad   I tried to document my functions well, that should help.
16:29 rubenwardy I think hmmmm was getting disillusioned with code quality etc
16:29 rubenwardy but predominately it was due to lack of time, I believe
16:29 nore       juhdanad: hmm, will look
16:30 paramat    hmmmm lost interest, didn't play the game, he said he felt 'the rug was being pulled out from under him'
16:30 celeron55  i think hmmmm just learned to be lazy after being a bit young and naive at first
16:31 paramat    i recall he said he has his own ideas of how to code a voxel game, bu tsaid he has no time to start his own
16:31 paramat    he also said he didn't enjoy dev anymore
16:32 paramat    i suspect my presence in a small way made it easier for him to leave because i can (just) keep mapgen going
16:36 paramat    also i don't think 0.5.0 makes 5687 any more acceptable, because we are not breaking map format
16:38 nore       paramat: but we are breaking backwards compatibility anyway
16:38 paramat    it's just that the stated advantages seem a bit 'meh' to me, useful but not enough for such a fundamental change :]
16:38 paramat    not for map format
16:38 nore       well, you know how much light updates are costly though
16:39 nore       they'll get half as costly in some cases
16:39 paramat    yes that's the most useful point
16:39 nore       and it also provides a lot of advantages, both for modding and for visuals
16:39 rubenwardy is there a convertor?
16:39 nore       rubenwardy: yep
16:40 nore       basically it recomputes the lighting
16:40 paramat    well, those other advantages are very minor
16:40 juhdanad   rubenwardy: If merged, Minetest will automatically convert and save the loaded map blocks in the new format.
16:41 juhdanad   paramat: think of it as maximising the information content of param1.
16:42 paramat    but, maybe i will be convinced, i just feel it needs more work and more consideration
16:42 paramat    with a map format change obviously we have to be super-cautious
16:43 nore       juhdanad: btw, is there a comment in the issue about the problem you're currently having with it?
16:44 paramat    btw juhdanad if asked would you be prepared to be a MT dev?
16:47 shivajiva  for the record Zeno specifically expressed it wasn't OC that made him come to a decision...
16:51 YuGiOhJCJ  sfan5, GL is only used on the client side isn't it? so why it matters to run the server on a pi with gles/egl instead of GL driver?
16:51 shivajiva  like it or not how mt is developed and the behaviour of the people involved were factors. Not a single person but an accumalation of things
16:51 paramat    the graphics of 5687 need work too, which is intended to be done though, obviously this is not good https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5687#issuecomment-298822185
16:52 rubenwardy shivajiva, did he express in IRC? Do you know the date?
16:53 rubenwardy http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2017-08-08
16:53 Krock      s/ru/net/
16:53 sfan5      YuGiOhJCJ: i thought you were running the client on a pi
16:54 YuGiOhJCJ  oh ok that's not the case, I am running on desktop, the server is on a Raspberry Pi
16:55 sfan5      the issue is quote hard to pinpoint without a `bt full`-style backtrace and a mt+irrlicht debug build
16:55 nore       btw http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2017-08-08#i_5036407 <-- do you know anything about that? never heard anything
16:55 rubenwardy I think he means we're developing MT only for MultiCraft's gains
16:55 rubenwardy ie: "hey he pays well" is sarcastic
16:55 rubenwardy but unsure
16:56 nore       hmmm possible indeed
16:56 YuGiOhJCJ  sfan5, ok so I will not report this problem on GitHub until I get a better trace with debugging information
16:56 sfan5      YuGiOhJCJ: sounds good
16:57 celeron55  finally commented to #5687; should have done this much earlier but was lazy
16:57 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5687 -- Artificial bank by juhdanad
16:58 sfan5      "should have done this much earlier but was lazy"
16:58 sfan5      me irl
16:58 Krock      ^ me, irl
16:58 sfan5      i still want to rewrite the formspec system
16:58 sfan5      but >effort
16:58 rubenwardy agreed
16:59 celeron55  you'll get a lot of fame for it
16:59 celeron55  i mean, like a blog post
16:59 celeron55  totally worth!
16:59 Krock      could be done using Json, which can be extended easily
17:00 rubenwardy the problem isn't the format, but how it works
17:00 paramat    i disagree with what zeno wrote in dev on that day, however there is this which gives a different impression http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-hub/2017-08-08#i_5036596 that seems a better explanation of why he left
17:00 sfan5      Krock: what with the love for json? are lua tables not good enough
17:00 rubenwardy ie: not responsive, doesn't scale well, co-ordinates are inconsistent, basically no client-side prediction support, no containers
17:00 sfan5      what's*
17:01 Krock      sfan5, well, surely you could serialize Lua tables but JSON offers the feature to bring it into a nice readable text form
17:02 rubenwardy they're basically identical, except for the fact that Lua doesn't differentiate between dicts and arrays
17:04 sfan5      rubenwardy: how would you design containers in formspecs?
17:04 rubenwardy you can't very well, which is why you also need a new format to support it
17:04 rubenwardy but we do have face containers
17:04 rubenwardy *fake
17:04 sfan5      i dont mean with the existing format, how would you approach it with an entirely new format
17:05 nore       merging #6324 now since the travis is ok
17:05 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6324 -- Statbars: fix incorrect half-images in non-standard orientations by Ekdohibs
17:06 juhdanad   paramat: I think I would like to become a developer, but I won't be able to put more time to the project than currently.
17:08 rubenwardy similar to common graphics libraries. Components such as tabs can have children, one for each tab page. These children would be one of several types of containers: linear, tabs, canvas. But it's quite complicated, so it's worth investigating GUI libraries for this
17:12 paramat    juhdanad there's no time obligations, we have core devs who disappear for months or years :]
17:12 paramat    you just work when you feel like it here
17:13 paramat    often i feel someone has to be crazy to be a core dev, luckily crazy people exist :]
17:16 paramat    i sometimes think, why do i do this? i must be crazy, then i remember i am crazy, so it's ok :}
17:21 paramat    i do think 5687 should be worked on and considered, because if it turns out to be worth it, before 0.5 would be the ideal time to do it. i'm not saying 'i will always oppose this', just that it needs work and more consideration of whether it is justified
17:21 shivajiva  rubenwardy: you seem to have the right points in the log
17:23 paramat    also, lighting should be visually identical to how it is now
17:26 juhdanad   I remember how you took care to keep visuals identical when I first introduced hardware colorization too.
17:53 paramat    yeah, i made a fuss :}
19:03 paramat    closed #6321
19:03 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6321 -- On systems with lower ram, minetest lags going large distances in flat mapgen, uses up most of the system ram and swap space
19:08 paramat    wow issues + PRs down to 950, less than 1000 again
19:09 Krock      thanks to rubenwardy
19:13 paramat    for 0.5 we could aim for < 100 PRs and < 1000 total
19:16 rubenwardy my aim was < 100 PRs by the end of august
19:16 rubenwardy may be pushing it now
19:16 rubenwardy mid september ?
19:17 rubenwardy as for #6321, I reckon maybe the "solution" is to detect how much RAM there is left, and drop some blocks if so
19:17 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6321 -- On systems with lower ram, minetest lags going large distances in flat mapgen, uses up most of the system ram and swap space
19:19 rubenwardy then again, they seem to be moving in a straight line, so blocks should be unloaded
19:22 celeron55  hmm
19:23 celeron55  the farmap-without-farmap branch has a feature that is able to unload blocks very fast, accurately and efficiently in situations like that
19:24 celeron55  i guess i need to turn it to a PR and rebase for 0.5
19:24 rubenwardy please do :)
19:25 celeron55  i mean... not really "a feature" but it just swaps the old system out and puts a new system in
19:25 rubenwardy Does it improve view range / chunk sending at all?
19:25 celeron55  it manages those better
19:26 celeron55  rendering speed doesn't change
19:28 celeron55  altough, more accurate block sending _is_ a prerequisite for rendering improvements that focus on range
19:28 celeron55  and also for saving memory
19:29 celeron55  hmm... accurate might be a bad term; maybe more like systematic
19:30 rubenwardy I wonder how easy it would be to put together a benchmarking tool for Minetest
19:30 rubenwardy so we can objectively check whether performance has reduced during a release cycle
19:31 rubenwardy rendering / graphics is hardly my area though. It's all black magic
19:32 celeron55  well the only thing you can really do (and should?) is to load up a world with the player in the same position, wait for it to be loaded and check fps
19:33 celeron55  that could be automated
19:33 rubenwardy if CSM could access the client's FPS and jitter, you could automate that
19:33 rubenwardy well
19:34 rubenwardy that would be the easiest way, in C++ is also possible
19:34 celeron55  C++ patches are kind of a pain as the code changes all the time
19:35 celeron55  CSM would be a backwards compatible interface so it would work well for the purpose
19:35 rubenwardy yeah, that's why I suggest CSM
19:38 celeron55  if there's some way in config or on the command line to force loading a client-side mod, it's just a matter of writing a mod that runs the test, outputs the result somewhere and closes the game, and writing a script that builds many minetest versions and runs them with the mod and the same world
19:38 celeron55  https://github.com/celeron55/minetest-worldtest
19:39 celeron55  this was a similar test for testing minetest world compatibility between versions
19:40 celeron55  that would probably still work just fine if patches for new versions where written in rules.d/
19:40 celeron55  maybe it should still be used?
19:54 rubenwardy could be good. Means that if you change the benchmark script, you don't need to manually run all previous versions
19:54 rubenwardy and in the right place in game.cpp, a patch could be easily port able
19:59 paramat    celeron55 this might interest you https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18355 a subgame remaking MT 0.2
20:03 celeron55  lol, it sounds like this guy hates what he's doing
20:03 celeron55  junglegrass not turning grass to dirt? heresy!
20:03 celeron55  it's the result of my careful and artful design
20:05 celeron55  i think the 0.2.20110922 actually already differs from my original stuff a bit too much
20:05 celeron55  something earlier from that year is better
20:06 celeron55  like, before github
20:08 celeron55  i think 2011-07-23 is pretty much the pinnacle of minetest-c55
21:43 Lone-Star  when i build from source, how can i make a deb from it?
21:57 paramat    closed #2205
21:57 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2205 -- Android - Drowning bubbles don't always show.
22:15 paramat    any support for me adding a setting for #6101 ? before i start work
22:15 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6101 -- Do not use signed integer for registering nodes to allow more than 32768 registered nodes
23:02 paramat    long overdue #6326
23:02 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6326 -- Advanced settings: Make 'controls', 'graphics', 'sound' more accessible by paramat
23:12 paramat    luckily settingtypes makes it easy and quick to move stuff around, far better than messing around with formspecs
23:47 YuGiOhJCJ  sfan5, I now have a full trace of the problem: https://pastebin.com/m5G5016n (irrlicht and minetest are built with debugging information)
23:48 YuGiOhJCJ  do you see something useful?
23:48 YuGiOhJCJ  in this output?