Time Nick Message 12:33 paramat #6125 and related #6126 12:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6125 -- F5 debug display: Reformat and remove some information by paramat 12:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6126 -- Default window size: Increase to 16:9 1024x576 by paramat 12:35 VanessaE whoa wait 12:35 VanessaE don't remove the filename 12:35 VanessaE (of the top solid) 12:35 VanessaE that's occasionally useful 12:35 VanessaE s/solid/tile/ 12:36 VanessaE one thing that DOES need done however is to make the text wrap properly if the window is too narrow 12:38 paramat wrapping will less readable if it wraps mid-parameter, and it's simpler to not do so, anyway no need to with this 12:38 VanessaE so split it between fields? 12:39 VanessaE if it doesn't wrap, it gets cut off entirely 12:39 VanessaE stats that are hidden are kinda useless :) 12:39 paramat that would be complex, and it's unnecessary 12:39 VanessaE hm. 12:39 * VanessaE shrugs 12:40 paramat well, maybe 12:40 VanessaE you could just re-arrange the line wrapping manually 12:40 paramat it would conform to screen width 12:40 VanessaE like just make the lines always a little shorter 12:40 paramat .. and therefore reduce lines 12:41 paramat manual re-arranging is what my PR does? maybe i misunderstood? 12:56 paramat well maybe we can make it adjust to screen width in future, but i don't know how to do that so this for now 13:42 Fixer get biome info 13:52 paramat VanessaE while i consider keeping node top tile, how is it useful? seems not very essential, and it is not the pointed tile 13:54 paramat any more comments on #6091 ? it has approval so i might merge it much later today 13:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy 14:02 paramat anyway, i'll check the PR that added top tile info to see the uses 14:06 DS-minetest 6091 has only one approval but 8 yellow disapprovals including nerzhul 14:09 nerzhul in fact to make sending messages more efficient we should: 1. have the new chat protocol merged 2. develop the mod communication channels 14:09 nerzhul i just work on other projects these days 14:29 paramat emoticon disapprovals are different from official approvals so cannot be compared, and some are hacker types, the server owners all approve 14:31 DS-minetest no, there are many server owners that didn't approve 14:35 VanessaE paramat: maybe it (texture filename) doesn't have much use, but it just seems like it belongs is all. besides, is it *really* all that heavy to display it? and why do we care? :) 14:35 VanessaE I've used it once or twice to check what texture a node ended up with. like a sanity check. 14:36 VanessaE imho it's okay to lose a few percent performance for the sake of debug info as long as that loss happens only when the debug info is displayed. 14:36 VanessaE (assuming we're talking a few percent, you did say the performance difference was small) 14:37 * VanessaE shrugs 14:40 paramat sorry i mean, of the server owners who added an emoticon 14:40 VanessaE as for CSM it's simple: if it's something that can allow a client to spam the server in any way, shape, or form, it needs to be removed entirely, or disabled from the server by default. 14:40 paramat nah it's not heavy to display, as i wrote, but if it's not much use .. 14:41 paramat few percent would be a huge performance loss, i mean much much smaller :] 14:41 VanessaE hehe ok 14:41 VanessaE well think of it this way: 14:41 VanessaE what's the point in *removing* it now that it's there? 14:42 VanessaE it's a debug display, it should have as much useful info as possible. 14:42 DS-minetest + 14:42 paramat less screen clutter, a 3rd line is more intrusive 14:42 VanessaE param1 on the other hand is questionable 14:42 DS-minetest the players won't update if they know that the feature is removed 14:42 VanessaE bleh, it's debug 14:42 VanessaE you can turn it off anyway 14:42 paramat DS wut 14:42 VanessaE besides, the graphs at the bottom are far more intrusive 14:42 DS-minetest oh 14:43 VanessaE DS-minetest: CSM updates will come with a protocol bump == server owners can disallow old clients that lack the updates. 14:43 paramat sorry DS maybe you meant chat 14:43 DS-minetest yes 14:43 DS-minetest VanessaE: but the server would loose many stable version players 14:43 nerzhul VanessaE, you cannot really spam as there are spam limits server side 14:44 VanessaE DS-minetest: tough. 14:44 VanessaE they can upgrade. 14:44 VanessaE nerzhul: can the server protect against rapid node actions? 14:44 DS-minetest the spam limits have to bee stricter 14:44 VanessaE and no, the server does NOT protect well against spamming the chat 14:44 paramat *some* may not update, but only hacker types 14:45 VanessaE besides, there's just no use-case for a mod "talking" to the server's other players like that. 14:45 DS-minetest paramat: and the ones who use table 14:45 DS-minetest stable* 14:45 VanessaE it will be in stable. 14:46 DS-minetest also moderators and admins can easily kick or ban or revoke shout of spamming players 14:46 paramat the 'spam limits' are just message rate, there are other ways to annoy with chat messages, like the hi mod 14:46 VanessaE that doesn't work in practice, DS-minetest . 14:46 VanessaE paramat: exactly. 14:47 VanessaE DS-minetest: server admins can't police servers 24/7. 14:47 DS-minetest then we need a limited amount of messages that can be sent 14:48 paramat mods and admin would rather not have the annoyance in the first place, try talking to them 14:48 VanessaE that's the domain of a server mod perhaps, but you still have to make sure the client can't automate it. 14:48 VanessaE paramat: ^ exactly. 14:48 paramat no, message limit is no solution 14:49 VanessaE there are anti-spam and anti-flood mods for IRC clients and IRC bots that are usually fairly effective, but if the opportunity exists to nip that in the bud now, then it should be so. 14:49 paramat chat can annoy within rate or total limits 14:49 VanessaE yup 14:50 DS-minetest well, actually i only know one good usecase of sending chat messages: the one which uses oredetect now 14:50 VanessaE why would that send chat messages to the server? 14:50 VanessaE "that's just plain dumb and stupid!" 14:50 DS-minetest so, telling the server that the player has oredetect but not showing it to the player 14:50 VanessaE THAT is the domain of the layer below Lua 14:51 VanessaE i.e. the client can inform the server via a normal side channel rather than in chat. 14:51 DS-minetest but using chat commands is very useful 14:52 DS-minetest VanessaE: yeah, but it tells it to all players that the player has oredetect 14:52 VanessaE yeah and that's a waste of bandwidth 14:53 VanessaE that's the sort of thing that should be handled at a much lower level (at which point the client should tell the server ALL of the client-side mods it has, if that isn't already the case) 14:53 DS-minetest it isn't but also it wouldn't help anything since the name isn't useful to know 14:54 VanessaE exactrly 14:54 VanessaE exactly* 14:54 VanessaE that's what makes it a waste of bandwidth 14:54 VanessaE it's useless information (and it's not expected to drive one's imagination either) 14:54 DS-minetest actually the new oredetect version is just an experiment 14:57 DS-minetest the only possibility to spam with chatcommands is normally with the me command (maybe also with msg) 14:58 VanessaE exactly. 14:58 DS-minetest what if there was a field in chatcommand definition if it can be used with csm? 14:59 paramat can you not cheat with that mod now? 14:59 DS-minetest oredetect is disabled 15:00 VanessaE hacker types will just work around it 15:00 VanessaE Lua's a lot easier to hack than C++ 15:00 paramat VanessaE https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17692 i think this should be removed from the forum until we have restrictions 15:00 DS-minetest and a player who uses it writes on join detecting ores is like eating yellow snow 15:01 DS-minetest VanessaE: but as long as a C++ change is needed, it's ok 15:01 VanessaE moved to "moderator talk" 15:01 VanessaE paramat: ^ 15:01 VanessaE (best place I could think of that'll keep it out of normal users' view) 15:01 paramat ok thanks 15:01 paramat is there any reason why oredetect should not be removed? 15:02 VanessaE got a link to it? 15:02 DS-minetest paramat: getting the players who are evil and want to use it 15:03 paramat https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17046 15:04 VanessaE paramat: moved. sorry, DS-minetest. 15:04 DS-minetest ok 15:04 paramat those are the only 2 that are harmful 15:05 paramat thanks, and yes we're sorry, it's only for a few months 15:06 * DS-minetest added the evil label to github oredetect repository 15:07 paramat i think 0.5 is the point where there are enough protections to allow any CSM mod to be posted, so 6 months 15:09 DS-minetest game#1827 needs a better name :P 15:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1827 -- ! 15:09 VanessaE wat 15:11 paramat zaoqi is chinese and has bad english 15:12 paramat but it could be better 15:13 paramat i'll add a title if one doesn't appear 15:14 DS-minetest could we please keep csm chatcommand execution and add a field in chatcommand definition if it can be used with csm 15:54 glut32 I have a mouse bug only on MacOSX : You cannot move the camera with the mouse 15:58 glut32 (on minetest)