Time  Nick       Message
00:16 paramat    i forgot to say, i could not merge #5234 , did not apply. sofar
00:16 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5234 -- Re-add Droid Sans as fallback font (Reverts part of eb490) by sofar
00:17 sofar      yeah, that's git for ya
00:17 sofar      I'll do it myself later tonight
00:17 paramat    i was using 'git am'
00:17 paramat    ok
00:17 sofar      yup, git am b0rks on that one
01:52 sofar      how do I measure mapgen time performance wise?
01:52 sofar      is there such a way?
01:54 VanessaE   dtime?
01:54 VanessaE   in register-on-generated
01:54 VanessaE   probably isn't accurate enough though
01:54 VanessaE   but that's what I use in biome_lib to split-up the mapgen stuff into small steps
02:39 paramat    sofar in a mapgen uncomment these lines https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L233 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L275 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L31
02:41 paramat    note that doesn't include liquid update and light calculation, so i like to move the second line to after those
04:05 sofar      maybe I just want something that generates a known amount of mapchunks (large number) and times it
09:21 kaeza      lol running luacheck on builtin
09:22 kaeza      even disabling "safe" warnings (whitespace/shadowing/unused stuff), it's like 5 pages of warnings
09:22 kaeza      it wants to dump everything in _G
09:27 nore       kaeza: well, you should tell it about the known globals (core, ItemStack, etc.)
09:27 kaeza      already did :P
09:27 nore       hmm
09:28 nore       what it is complaining about then?
09:28 kaeza      https://gist.github.com/kaeza/8c6bbda05ed1d19234874fe69656bdca
09:29 kaeza      most of those look fairly safe
09:30 nore       ow
09:30 nore       yeah, would be good to fix that one way or the other though
09:31 kaeza      and that one's not including builtin/mainmenu
09:32 kaeza      I can go through the code and clean up stuff, but is it worth the effort?
09:33 kaeza      i.e. anybody except me and maybe ShadowNinja cares?
09:34 nore       I think it's worth it
10:18 exio4      builtin/game/item.lua:193:1: inconsistent indentation (SPACE followed by TAB)
10:21 * kaeza    hugs exio4
10:21 kaeza      okay, I have a few questions
10:22 kaeza      first, is basic_dump meant to be global? doesn't look so, looks like it is a helper for dump and dump2
10:22 kaeza      and second, why is mainmenu-only code in builtin/common ? O.o
10:57 kaeza      #5253
10:57 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5253 -- [WIP] Run builtin through LuaCheck and fix warnings. by kaeza
11:20 red-002    #5252
11:20 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5252 -- Add support for the new arguments of `request_shutdown` to the `/shutdown` chatcommand. by red-001
14:24 red-002    Did I misunderstand #244 or are players floating in mid-air after they die a feature not a bug?
14:24 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/244 -- Strange effects with dead players
14:45 VanessaE   Interesting effect I never noticed before:  if I happen to be "just standing there" after signing on, and the more distant parts of the map haven't loaded because they're too far, eventually they do start to load as night falls.
14:45 VanessaE   (even if it's been several minutes since I signed on)
15:06 Zeno`      VanessaE, what are you smoking and can I have some?
15:06 VanessaE   I'm serious.
15:06 VanessaE   and if I had it, I'd share ;)
15:06 Zeno`      lol
15:13 VanessaE   on another note, is there a "sane" way to scan a world, from outside of Minetest, for bad/corrupt blocks?
15:15 sfan5      VanessaE: i guess my mapblock-parse.py script should returns errors if you have a corrupt block
15:16 sfan5      i would require you to invoke it <number of mapblocks> times though
15:17 VanessaE   just curious.   rogier5's minetestmapper returns tons of "incorrect header check, corrupt?" errors, but in-world everything's normal.
15:18 VanessaE   figured a mass check-for-errors, like a map-level fsck, might be a good idea
15:18 VanessaE   (if such a thing existed)
15:19 sfan5      >Sorry, forked repositories are not currently searchable.
15:19 sfan5      for fucks sake github
15:20 VanessaE   wayt
15:20 VanessaE   wat
15:20 sfan5      this incorrect header msg doesn't seem to be part of rogiers code
15:20 sfan5      most likely returned by zlib
15:21 VanessaE   ah, could mne
15:21 VanessaE   be*
15:21 sfan5      are you running -dev?
15:21 VanessaE   lemme check that even have zlib installed
15:21 sfan5      if so then minetestmapper needs changes to function correctly
15:21 sfan5      you do
15:21 VanessaE   you mean -dev as in minetest engine?  yes.
15:22 sfan5      yes i meant that
15:23 VanessaE   which of us gets to file an issue against his repo? :)
15:23 sfan5      not me
15:23 VanessaE   (I'd just use upstream, but the leaflet mapper needs a couple of features only rogier5's fork has, I guess)
15:24 sfan5      which ones?
15:24 VanessaE   that's just it, I don't remember for sure
15:24 VanessaE   est31 would know
15:25 VanessaE   what sort of changes does it need?  I'll mention this in the bug report.
15:25 sfan5      $mapperpath ${MAPPERPARAMS} -i ${MAPDIR} --geometry ${posx},${posy}+${tilesize}+${tilesize} -o ${tiledir}/20/map_${x}_${y}.png
15:26 sfan5      i don't see anything
15:26 VanessaE   http://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/Server-scripts/update-server-maps-leaftest.sh
15:28 VanessaE   ah there's the man of the hour now :)
15:29 sfan5      i still don't see anything incompatible
15:29 VanessaE   est31: why did I need rogier5's mapper for leaflet?
15:32 sfan5      also your script is copying colors.txt needlessy
15:32 VanessaE   oh?
15:32 red-002    #5255
15:32 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5255 -- Add option to also check the center to `find_node_near` by red-001
15:33 sfan5      VanessaE: it does $ cp /home/vanessa/www/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/colors.txt $workdir/leaftest   but then passes the original colors path to mapper.sh
15:33 VanessaE   oh heh
15:33 VanessaE   good catch
15:34 VanessaE   can you give me a brief description of the "changes" the mapper would need, and maybe the commit that made it necessary?  I'd like to include those in this bug report.
15:35 sfan5      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/f17c9c45dc30a388675d46418d278a4a029206e2 -->>https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper/commit/21444d00c35dc6896ffc27af7da38d8a296178fd
15:37 VanessaE   thanks
15:40 VanessaE   https://github.com/Rogier-5/minetest-mapper-cpp/issues/19
15:42 VanessaE   still racking my brain trying to remember why rogier5's mapper was needed for leaftest *pokes est31 again :) *
15:42 Fixer      more about stutter/jitter, I loaded up old minetest files from 0.2.2011 era
15:42 Fixer      Minetest 0.2.20110618_0 does not have visible stutter at all on my PC, yet 0.2.20110704_0 version does
15:43 VanessaE   Fixer: did you control for things like CPU spikes outside of minetest, e.g. from a browser or screen update elsewhere?
15:44 Fixer      VanessaE: cpu was quit, i played those some time, I'm pretty sure about this, stutter was visible in 20110704_0
15:44 Fixer      quite
15:45 VanessaE   Fixer: ok.
16:04 Fixer      i'm looking at this part right now: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/02006a95402c41833779e3825c44b39d600e566b
16:04 Fixer      dat sleep
16:04 Fixer      wanna try it on newest to slow down it
16:10 rubenwardy set it to 1000
16:10 rubenwardy wait, is that ms or s?
16:10 rubenwardy ms surely
16:11 rubenwardy oh, misread, I'm an idiot
16:11 Fixer      ms
16:12 Fixer      want to experiment slightly
16:13 paramat    maybe you could bisect to find the commit that causes jitter
16:13 Fixer      i doubt I will compile 2011 build succesfully today with mingw64
16:14 Fixer      and I think I put sleep in a wrong place %) but thats ok, will try more
16:16 nore       Fixer: just decide it is bisect good if it doesn't compile, and then see if the commit you get is the first that compiles or if it causes jitter
16:19 Fixer      I was looking at this part https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commits/81535f6277b66c869cda7125b2aeaf99e8078b92/src/client.cpp (since Jun18 and up)
16:19 celeron55  Fixer: you don't need to experiment with that because we all already know your jitter solely depends on the number of mapblock meshes being updated per frame
16:19 Fixer      celeron55: exactly
16:19 celeron55  and increasing that sleep obviously slows down the updates
16:24 red-002    updated #5255 it should be more readable now
16:24 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5255 -- Add option to also check the center to `find_node_near` by red-001
16:34 Fixer      and indeed, sleep(50ms) eliminated the stutter
16:34 Fixer      totally
16:35 VanessaE   I'm curious why a sleep is even needed in the first place
16:35 VanessaE   shouldn't meshes be sent in a separate thread as fast as possible?
16:36 Fixer      http://pastebin.com/raw/D44biexY
16:36 VanessaE   oh. they are. :)
16:37 VanessaE   (still doesn't explain why a sleep is used.  thread priority problems maybe?)
16:37 Fixer      VanessaE: it was used like this in mid of 2011 and then refactored to current look I think
16:41 Fixer      https://i.imgur.com/qWEoGdH.png
16:42 VanessaE   you really wanna see stutter, load HDX256 and go over to VE-S around the spawn
16:42 VanessaE   you'll see pauses as long as a couple of seconds.
16:43 Fixer      now, lets speed it up to 25ms
16:43 Fixer      or 20...
16:47 Fixer      sl20 here i go
16:48 Fixer      very good
16:48 Fixer      acceptable
16:49 sfan5      the correct way to solve this is probably to add a setting
16:51 Fixer      lazy chunk load enabled by default with some pretty good sleep value
16:52 Fixer      i see some rare bump of draw time to 0.05 rarely from different source, apart from that it is damn smooth in huge jungle
16:52 Fixer      lets try 10 ms
16:53 VanessaE   Fixer: please go try VE-S with HDX256
16:53 VanessaE   I'm curious how it performs
16:54 Fixer      VanessaE: i got that 0.7 sec freeze in loop_other, even with default textures, hard to imagine HDX256, i can join to see it, but with HDX128
16:55 VanessaE   that's fine
16:55 Fixer      VanessaE: on default minetest, have not tested with sleep
16:55 red-002    #5254 doesn't really seem like something that should be on a bug tracker
16:55 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5254 -- This code should fill a mapchunk
16:56 paramat    looking
16:56 paramat    is there a disadvantage to increasing that sleep time slightly, finding a good balance?
16:57 Fixer      paramat: decreasing sleep time will increase stutter, and vice versa (versa?)
16:57 paramat    5254 is code error, will reply
16:57 Fixer      currently trying 10ms
16:58 nore       hmm, I think either a setting or a way to automagically adapt the sleep time would be the correct solutions
17:00 Fixer      hmmm, 10ms is close to edge of my liking
17:00 Fixer      feels somewhat agreesive at 10ms, still pretty smooth
17:01 VanessaE   Fixer: aggressive?
17:01 VanessaE   surely no stutter is the ideal?
17:01 Fixer      VanessaE: somewhat more jitter at 10 ms
17:01 VanessaE   oh
17:02 Fixer      VanessaE: like this part: https://i.imgur.com/AmQfEyl.png it is not critical
17:02 Fixer      0.037
17:02 Fixer      avg is ~0.01
17:02 Fixer      but even 10ms is quite good
17:02 Fixer      as compromise between speed and jitter
17:03 Fixer      hmmm, i feel like 15 ms sleep test is needed
17:04 Fixer      10 ms sometimes gives some jitter I dislike (like shallow fps drop from 100 to 70fps)
17:04 Fixer      and back to 100
17:05 Fixer      VanessaE: i will join your server with sleep 15
17:05 VanessaE   ok
17:05 Fixer      dreambuilder survival
17:05 VanessaE   yeah
17:05 VanessaE   at the spawn is the worst of course
17:07 sfan5      is this trampoline thing a feature? https://a.uguu.se/N2SgPMiYWgbE.mp4
17:07 Fixer      yes, 10ms is harsh, preferring 15ms
17:07 paramat    i notice it's worse over dense forest than empty terrain, i guess because the meshes are more complex
17:08 Fixer      paramat: yes, but sleep eliminates even that
17:08 Fixer      it is very weak after that
17:08 Fixer      like you loose 1-2 fps at most with sleep 50ms
17:08 Fixer      when it is 100fps
17:08 paramat    that would be worth it for me
17:09 paramat    jitter is really bad recently, hmmmm noticed too
17:09 paramat    the denser, taller forests of mgv7 probably make it worse
17:10 paramat    plus all those snow nodeboxes on pines
17:10 Fixer      sweet spot near sleep 15-20ms on my PC
17:10 Fixer      very good in forest
17:10 paramat    i might test this ..
17:10 Fixer      map loading will be somewhat slower, but acceptable
17:10 Fixer      i can still run
17:12 red-002    should #5218 be a warning?
17:12 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5218 -- "ERROR[Server]: Pathfinder: failed to update cost map" floods console
17:12 red-002    or do you think it should stay an error?
17:12 paramat    unless there's some big disadvantage i would support a new balanced value
17:14 * VanessaE watches Fixer's PC begin to smoke
17:15 Fixer      sfan5: trampoline should remine everyone that minetest also has UGLY unfixed falling related bugs
17:16 Fixer      VanessaE: 40fps at spawn, there was freeze, but it was as usual of unrelated loop_other origin
17:16 VanessaE   40 fps?!
17:16 VanessaE   how the fuck?
17:16 VanessaE   I can't even maintain 30
17:16 Fixer      30fps
17:16 paramat    falling issues have been discussed and are not easy to fix
17:16 Fixer      VanessaE: it loads slightly slower
17:17 Fixer      VanessaE: let me do a walk
17:18 Fixer      whats up with mainloop_other 1.6 sec on vanessa servers only?
17:18 VanessaE   idk
17:19 VanessaE   signs maybe
17:19 VanessaE   (entities that is)
17:19 Fixer      i seen this only on your servers... including basic one
17:20 VanessaE   hopefully that text-on-signs idea pans out (and can replace signs_lib)
17:21 Fixer      VanessaE: 20-30 fps on spawn, what is good, is it is pretty solid fps, not quick changes, only unrelated rare freezes due to signs or whatever, will upload gif
17:21 VanessaE   ok
17:24 Fixer      VanessaE: notice how smooth it is on your server https://imgur.com/a/9qd0T
17:24 VanessaE   far smoother than it is for me, for sure
17:25 Fixer      fps may be low, but at least it is consistent without insane jitter
17:27 Fixer      num_processed_meshes was at 5 on that server
17:27 Fixer      pretty good value
17:28 Fixer      now if I try default client... that will be disaster %)
17:29 Fixer      yesterdays gif from same place, probably shorter https://imgur.com/a/bWJoe
17:29 VanessaE   ew
17:29 VanessaE   that's almost as bad as it is for me
17:30 Fixer      yes, and compare with almost smooth line for sleep 15ms
17:31 Fixer      it just feels better, i don't want to throw up anymore, it is just low fps, but without this jitter shit on top
17:37 paramat    i might make a PR and we can then test to find a good balanced value
17:38 VanessaE   go with sfan5's idea, make it configurable
17:38 Fixer      i already tested 10-15-20-50ms sleeps, will spent some time with 15ms one, which I feel is quite good balance
17:38 VanessaE   (with a sane defautl)
17:38 VanessaE   default*
17:38 paramat    just remembered you can do PRs now
17:39 Fixer      nah, i'm noob with this
17:39 Fixer      it needs more code
17:39 Fixer      to check settings value and apply it to sleep
17:39 paramat    why more?
17:39 paramat    ok
17:39 Fixer      do you want it configurable?
17:39 paramat    having a setting is quite easy to code
17:40 paramat    erm maybe
17:40 Fixer      lets say we want 15ms, add setting with default 15ms, and in code it just checks that settings and uses for sleep :)
17:40 Fixer      people who want agressive map load can easily decrease it down to 1 ms...
17:40 Fixer      or 0 for disabled
17:41 paramat    it's important so a setting is probably needed
17:42 sfan5      different idea: have a setting agressive_map_loading, defaults to false; in the code have sleep_ms(g_settings->get_bool("agressive_map_loading") ? 1 : 25);
17:42 sfan5      then the setting is more user friendly and thus be added to be settings menu
17:44 Fixer      i hope this checking will not slowdown anything
17:45 Fixer      it will be cached settings value, right?
17:46 Fixer      feels sooo good on servers too
17:46 VanessaE   sfan5: 1ms?? way too low
17:46 VanessaE   maybe you want 15 and 100 ?
17:46 VanessaE   (or whatever the higher value was)
17:46 Fixer      VanessaE: 1ms - most agressive, 100ms - slowgen
17:47 VanessaE   it's better to just allow a custom value imho
17:47 VanessaE   Fixer: yeah but you said that for you, below ~10ms is too aggressive
17:47 Fixer      VanessaE: yes
17:47 sfan5      well currently the sleep_ms() doesn't seem to exist at all
17:47 Fixer      VanessaE: and default minetest don't have this sleep in the first place %)
17:47 Fixer      VanessaE: so it is nearly as agressive as default
17:47 VanessaE   ohhhhh
17:47 sfan5      and i don't have any jitter problems
17:48 VanessaE   sfan5: go try VE-S then.
17:48 VanessaE   you will have bad jitter problems there :)
17:48 Fixer      sfan5: with sleep or without?
17:48 Fixer      i have jitter since 2011 basically
17:48 Fixer      on two different computers
17:48 sfan5      without
17:49 sfan5      where did you add the sleep anyway
17:49 Fixer      P4 2.8GHz + R9600 when I played on 0.2.2011/0.3/0.4dev and today with core i3 + R6870
17:49 sfan5      VanessaE: you mean dreambuilder survival?
17:49 * VanessaE pokes Zeno`
17:49 VanessaE   sfan5: yeaH
17:49 Fixer      sfan5: http://pastebin.com/raw/D44biexY
17:50 VanessaE   (zeno had some stuff to say a while back about jitter/stutter and mesh gen lag)
17:50 sfan5      Fixer: that's not exactly the same as with the old code though
17:50 Fixer      yeah, but helps %)
17:51 sfan5      VanessaE: where do i look for jitter
17:51 VanessaE   near the spawn
17:51 VanessaE   just walk say toward the tunnel
17:51 Fixer      really big freezes don't count, they are of different origin
17:53 Fixer      example of worst kind, 0.4.13 on discontinued just test server: http://i.imgur.com/F4jOrj3.png
17:53 sfan5      fps is pretty variable
17:53 sfan5      frametime increases if mesh updates happen
17:53 sfan5      this has been known since forever
17:54 Fixer      correct
17:54 Fixer      sleep just spreads it out more nicely, in lesser chunks
17:54 Fixer      this eliminates ingame jitter
17:55 celeron55  but then the client is incapable of processing lots of meshes
17:55 celeron55  it should be spread out, not limited
17:55 sfan5      the problem here is that "aggressive" mesh updates presents no problem at all in many cases
17:56 celeron55  i.e. a dynamic limit
17:56 sfan5      so it would be a bad idea to just add a sleep_ms thats enabled by default
18:01 paramat    spread out seems better
18:04 rubenwardy sofar: https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy/5ebfc6e6a15976118d487a1a51f9601e
18:04 paramat    #5258 fixed some more world-edge crashes
18:04 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5258 -- Voxelmanip: Do not emerge or blit to blocks over map gen limit by paramat
18:05 rubenwardy likely related to font_path = fonts/liberationsans.ttf in minetest.conf
18:05 rubenwardy it shouldn't segfault
18:10 sofar      rubenwardy: fonts and 'run_in_place' do not get along at all
18:10 sfan5      that's not the problem here
18:10 rubenwardy :D
18:10 sofar      I had the same crashes
18:10 sofar      oh, hmm, I understand
18:10 rubenwardy as a general rule, Minetest should never segfault
18:11 rubenwardy :P
18:11 sofar      welp, I gotta go to work
18:11 * sofar    afk
18:11 nerzhul    no program should segfault, only assertions in debug builds are  acceptable
18:15 Fixer      sfan5: no idea in what cases, any mesh update that is more than say 5 gives jitter for me, and usually in singleplayer it goes as high as 40 :(
18:16 Fixer      same for vanessa server
18:16 Fixer      with limiter it is much better experience
18:16 Fixer      map still loads pretty fast, yet smoother experience without jitter
18:21 Fixer      if you want to spread it... there still must be limit to not affect fps much, like 2-3(at most) mesh updates per frame
18:25 Fixer      it is fraps time
18:35 VanessaE   just as a reminder, someone please fix the screwdriver. https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1567
18:42 red-002    rubenwardy, does #5255 look ok to you now?
18:42 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5255 -- Add option to also check the center to `find_node_near` by red-001
18:46 rubenwardy yeah, although ){
18:48 red-002    should I fix the code style in the function?
18:52 Fixer      my fly test ended up with much higher fps due to slightly slower map load, results: https://i.imgur.com/F8Hqpwk.png Look standard deviation and frame distribution, huge difference in jitter
18:52 red-002    done
18:55 rubenwardy someone knows their statistics
18:57 garywhite  Someone suggested that a feature be added to export the chat or F10 to a file. Is this possible? (I don't think so, cause then it would have to be added to the engine to save it to a file by default
18:57 Fixer      some hardware sites also started measuring frame times, not fps, to uncover various problems, like jitter/etc
19:32 celeron55  so now loading less map is better? lol
19:32 Fixer      it is acceptable
19:35 paramat    i guess it is not just a case of number of meshes processed per frame but how complex they are
19:38 red-002    #5071
19:38 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5071 -- Rename functions in the minetest namespace to be more consistent. by red-001
19:38 Fixer      if someone have better idea that eliminates jitter, please do, meanwhile i;m sticking with sleep 15 as standard for my buids
19:39 rubenwardy if it makes a difference, then it may be worth it as a hot fix
19:39 rubenwardy leave better load balancing for latter
19:39 rubenwardy although, for later usually means never
19:39 Fixer      it is still faster than +fast on ground on my hardware
19:40 Fixer      in terms of mapblocks load speed
20:30 celeron55  sleeping a different amount makes zero sense; there are much better ways to throttle the mesh generation rate
20:31 Fixer      could be
20:31 Fixer      i'm sticking with sleep 15, who knows how many decades will pass when someone comes up with a solution
20:33 celeron55  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client.cpp#L535
20:33 celeron55  this is where you should throttle it
20:33 celeron55  limit the number of iterations that loop makes
20:34 celeron55  it'll make it even smoother than you can get it with sleeps
20:34 celeron55  for example, just replace while -> if
20:34 celeron55  you'll get exactly one mesh per frame
20:35 celeron55  a limit for that could be made a configuration option i guess
20:40 sfan5      i remember someone complaining about the design https://github.com/minetest/master-server/pull/15
20:40 sfan5      or not whatever
20:40 sfan5      ^ Fixer you sound like you might have time to look at this
20:41 Fixer      sfan5: about design?
20:41 sfan5      yes
20:45 Fixer      sfan5: that was probably not me, but i have problems with last column - it is hard to understand what exactly are those numbers for ping, lag
20:45 paramat    c55 thanks
20:45 sfan5      Fixer: i wasnt trying to imply that it was you, just needed someone to look at it
20:45 Fixer      sfan5: after comma digits, few persons may check server uptime to see when there will be reset?
20:45 sfan5      heres how it looks btw https://kitsunemimi.pw/tmp/sldesign/
20:46 Fixer      hmm
20:46 Fixer      second column needs improvement
20:47 sfan5      not aligned properly?
20:47 Fixer      https://i.imgur.com/JC3g6mO.png
20:47 paramat    c55 i might work on this
20:47 Fixer      sfan5: maybe make it players/max and below it average/top so it matches the pattern below
20:48 Fixer      sfan5: this looks crappy https://i.imgur.com/76h0SdB.png
20:48 sfan5      oh
20:48 sfan5      your screen/window is too narrow
20:48 sfan5      can't do anything about this
20:49 Fixer      sfan5: 1280*1024
20:49 sfan5      the old design would look similarily bad
20:49 Fixer      sfan5: old design looks better on my screen, https://i.imgur.com/1CGKC9m.png
20:49 Fixer      sfan5: for that particular part
20:50 Fixer      on my LCD*
20:50 Krock      age is wrapped to a new line here
20:50 Krock      (with old style)
20:50 Fixer      hhmmmm, actually i can resize it in firefox to 1600*1200 as example, to see how it looks
20:50 sfan5      accomodating for different sizes while keeping the nice alignment is pretty hard
20:50 Fixer      web dev tool
20:50 Krock      it's just too much information for narrow screens. hard to make it fit well
20:51 Fixer      ok, i'm looking at 1600*1200 version
20:51 Fixer      it looks neat
20:52 Fixer      sfan5: on 1600x1200/1920*1080/1920*1280/etc it should look nice
20:52 sfan5      it does look nice on 1080p
20:52 sfan5      since that is what i dev'ed it on
20:53 Krock      1280*1024 screen: http://i.imgur.com/nru6iCf.png
20:53 Fixer      also nice for 1366*768
20:54 Fixer      below 1364 it starts to look ugly with second rows...
20:54 Fixer      sfan5: not a lot of people have 1280*1024 tbh
20:54 sfan5      yeah most people have 16:9
20:54 sfan5      i'll let the PR sit 1 or 2 days and then merge it
20:55 sfan5      (since SN probably won't come around to comment on it anyway)
20:57 Fixer      no wait, now it starts second row on 1366
20:58 sfan5      its quite tolerateable on phones too
20:59 sfan5      celeron55: isn't doUpdate() countinously called by the thread while the queue is not empty?
21:00 paramat    nore sfan5 rubenwardy when you can please have a look at game#1552 , good new leafdecay system we have been working on
21:00 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1552 -- Leafdecay: node timer based implementation, API. by sofar
21:00 sfan5      does the leafdecay abm really take that much processing power?
21:00 Fixer      sfan5: i think you should trim it to 1366*768, sometimes it starts second row on 1366px...
21:01 sfan5      Fixer: the table layout is auto decided by your browser
21:01 sfan5      i haven't set any specific limits in the css
21:01 VanessaE   sfan5: it can take a lot if it has a shitton of leaves to process i.e. moretrees
21:02 Krock      Fixer, what if the font size would be reduced by one pt?
21:03 Fixer      sfan5: if you have firefox you can go into dev panel and type "resize to 1366 768"
21:04 Fixer      shift+f2
21:05 Fixer      serverlist looks cleaner now
21:05 sfan5      i mean i could (try to) fix the size at 1366/768 but that would be a rather bad idea
21:06 paramat    it's the most intensive ABM, and of course for the vast majority of the time it's running for no reason
21:07 paramat    it only needs to be active when changes are being made to trunks
21:10 paramat    we recently removed the leafdecay trunk cache which was eating huge amounts of memory, so then the leafdecay ABM became more intensive and it had to be slowed down because of that
21:15 Fixer      sfan5: this make confuse https://i.imgur.com/VhfwvYl.png
21:16 Fixer      make=can
21:16 rubenwardy I'd per separate columns for those things
21:17 rubenwardy maybe with colspan for headers, if needed
21:17 rubenwardy just so they're all aligned
21:17 sfan5      Fixer: indeed, it kinda sucks that those two need to be in a signle columns
21:17 sfan5      s/s$//
21:24 Fixer      Calinou can also look at that I guess
21:25 rubenwardy paramat, reviewed
21:28 Fixer      celeron55: with if method, it seems I have more jitter
21:29 Fixer      compared to sleep 15
21:32 Fixer      will try to benchmark it
21:37 paramat    ok
21:40 Fixer      jitter indeed pretty close to unfixed one with IF method, will try again
21:40 Fixer      also visible by eye compared to sleep 15
21:40 Fixer      map loading is faster
21:41 Fixer      but jitter ... :(
21:41 Fixer      one more try
21:51 Fixer      with if (!m_mesh_update_thread.m_queue_out.empty()) jitter is slightly better than original game (has visible stutter), much worse than sleep 15, after looking at fraps data
21:52 paramat    i'm testing too
21:54 Fixer      standard dev was ~5.3 both two runs with this IF method, standard game is about ~5-6 too, so not much win
21:54 celeron55  what does the mesh update graph look like?
21:54 Fixer      sleep 15 gives stand dev 1.65
21:55 Fixer      one sec, imgur is slow
21:57 Fixer      celeron55: https://i.imgur.com/yupq0AO.png
21:58 paramat    my code https://github.com/paramat/minetest/tree/meshprocess
21:58 paramat    will test with different values
21:59 paramat    with max 5 my graph is at solid max like that too, when flying
22:00 Fixer      mainloop_draw should be without any big spikes
22:00 Fixer      i still have them when it is set to 1
22:01 Fixer      i will try this code, with 5
22:01 Fixer      or 3
22:02 celeron55  wait where was the code that sleeps?
22:03 celeron55  i can't even find it anymore
22:03 Fixer      celeron55: in 2011? yes
22:03 Fixer      one sec, will give you link
22:04 Fixer      celeron55: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/02006a95402c41833779e3825c44b39d600e566b
22:05 Fixer      or this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/02006a95402c41833779e3825c44b39d600e566b/src/client.cpp
22:06 Fixer      it was 50, then reduced to 3ms, then refactored/removed I think
22:06 celeron55  so where do you add sleep_ms(15) now?
22:07 Fixer      celeron55: here http://pastebin.com/raw/D44biexY / modify it to 15 though
22:08 paramat    i'm just a little concerned about what happens to the queue if the client can't process meshes fast enough for a long time. it seems to prioritise nearby meshes
22:09 celeron55  Fixer: what does the graph look like with the sleep, without other limits?
22:13 garywhite  celeron55: The guys on -project just brought up an interesting topic: Adding sound to the main menu. Thoughts?
22:13 celeron55  well i guess you'll try something better than adding demoscene music to it
22:15 paramat    oh crumbs the music topic. this has been discussed a lot, music is a subgame thing, not an engine thing. i oppose it in mtgame for many reasons
22:15 paramat    other subgames can use it if they want
22:15 celeron55  s/to it/to the engine/
22:17 Fixer      celeron55: sleep 15 only on Vanessa survival creative: https://imgur.com/a/9qd0T Singleplayer has much better graph, will post in a sec
22:18 Fixer      celeron55: in singleplayer https://i.imgur.com/lKkvRHs.png
22:18 Fixer      celeron55: it can hit 2 or even 5 meshes depending on server, but it is damn smooth
22:18 rubenwardy I support main menu music for MTG, but it should follow and suit ingame music
22:19 Fixer      i already checked few servers with sleep 15 and had very good experience
22:19 garywhite  Why are you showing the profiler graph from F5? (& yes, I'm not a coder or a developer-type person, but I do know that it's a profiler graph if you press F5 x2)
22:19 Fixer      fps_max = 100
22:19 Fixer      will try paramats one
22:21 celeron55  this indicates the spike is somehow caused by mesh generation (something inside MapBlockMesh::MapBlockMesh), not by something that is ran in the main thread, which seems weird
22:21 Fixer      nope nope nope nope
22:21 Fixer      i tried paramat IF code with limit at 5
22:22 Fixer      lots of stuttering
22:22 Fixer      no go
22:22 Fixer      will try 3
22:23 Fixer      3 - also stuttering
22:25 Fixer      1 - has less stuttering, but much much more compared to sleep 15
22:25 Fixer      i would prefer sleep 15 any day
22:28 Fixer      yeah, it is noticable even with limit at 1
22:30 celeron55  it seems there could be something in MapBlockMesh::MapBlockMesh that somehow pauses rendering or the main thread
22:31 celeron55  it's supposed to be able to be run self-contained in a thread without any outside references, which should allow rendering to happen at regular fps alongside of it
22:33 celeron55  and the only point the result should get in touch with the main thread and rendering is the part i originally suggesting throttling
22:36 celeron55  time to read through all of the relevant code in irrlicht i guess...
22:36 celeron55  well, maybe some day
22:43 * VanessaE growls at celeron55
23:26 paramat    odd, my patch creates quite smooth behaviour for me
23:26 paramat    apart from an occasional momentary freeze
23:27 red-002    #5260
23:27 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5260 -- Use the `ARRLEN` macro in more places and remove an unused macro. by red-001
23:27 Fixer      paramat: with what limit?
23:28 paramat    5
23:28 paramat    need to test more though
23:28 Fixer      for me even 1 was not good enough
23:29 red-002    5260 is quite trivial
23:29 red-002    it just removes some code duplication
23:31 paramat    mtgame is too characterless and universal to have menu music, it woud be good for more specialised subgames though
23:31 paramat    (would)
23:31 Fixer      paramat: do you have stutter/jitter in the game without patch?
23:34 paramat    yes lots
23:34 Fixer      now try sleep 15 one
23:34 paramat    i have intel integrated graphics
23:34 Fixer      do you have nvidia?
23:34 Fixer      oh
23:35 paramat    i spend a lot of time flying at high speed over terrain, this probably doesn't help
23:35 paramat    (while deving mapgens)
23:36 red-002    yeah I suppose there isn't anything generic enough for mt-game
23:37 paramat    mods could supply music though, if there's a lightweight way to play it
23:38 paramat    in-game music is best done generatively from short samples, to avoid huge music files
23:38 red-002    this seems pretty generic https://soundcloud.com/essa-1/generic-game-loop-5-free-to-use?in=essa-1/sets/generic-game-music-loops
23:39 * red-002  goes off on a search for the most generic video game music possible
23:39 paramat    hehe well any music by definition can't be generic
23:39 VanessaE   originally RBA wanted to suggest Mercury Rain, if I remember right
23:39 VanessaE   and that was an S3M
23:39 VanessaE   or some such
23:41 red-002    it might be nice to change the speed or something like that when the player gets damaged
23:41 red-002    not sure how hard that would be through
23:42 Fixer      every time i join vanessas servers my GPU fans go crazy
23:43 paramat    ugh i can't stand this type of stereotyped mainstream movie rigid linking of music to events
23:43 paramat    the best movie music is fairly independent from on-screen events
23:43 paramat    like MC's music
23:44 VanessaE   I don't know what MC music is like but to my mind, music that fits the "theme" of a given area would be enough
23:44 VanessaE   go into a cave, the music gets "dark" and "broody"
23:45 paramat    that's also really cheesy
23:45 VanessaE   up on the surface, bright and happy.  at night?  gloomy but not "scary"
23:45 red-002    that's what people expect music to do
23:45 VanessaE   paramat: games have been doing this since the early 80's...
23:45 paramat    i hope not
23:45 paramat    inly crap games
23:45 paramat    (only)
23:46 VanessaE   Super Mario Brothers is a crap game?
23:46 VanessaE   was*
23:46 paramat    that kind of arcade game is different
23:46 red-002    don't see how
23:47 paramat    because the whole game is comical and lighthearted, and 'arcady' it works
23:47 VanessaE   paramat: I assume you would be free to turn the music off if you don't like it...
23:47 VanessaE   wait what?
23:47 VanessaE   have you ever played SMB or one of the later iterations?
23:47 red-002    since when is minetest anything but lighthearted?
23:48 red-002    I mean it's kinda hard to tell the theme
23:49 paramat    we should stop being concerned with what we imagine people expect from a game, that leads to mainstream game clones, MC broke many expectations and became one of the most successful games ever
23:49 VanessaE   paramat: "we" should focus on what makes players enjoy the game.
23:49 red-002    I'm pretty sure linking music with action has been done since like forever
23:50 paramat    SMB has a character that works with playful event-based game music, that's not suitable for a sandbox
23:50 VanessaE   short of somehow improving gameplay (which there isn't that much room for), in-game music generally makes a game more enjoyable
23:50 VanessaE   um, no
23:50 VanessaE   SMB's music is not event based (not precisely)
23:50 VanessaE   as I recall there's only two event that trigger a change in music - super-star power (change in theme), and running out of time (speeds up the main theme, otherwise it's the same), and
23:51 red-002    I mean if you don't want music affected by the game then you can just mute the game music and play your own music
23:51 paramat    'done since forever' (by others) is no good reason in itself
23:51 VanessaE   otherwise the music is themed according to the environment - underground, above-ground, in water, and a few others.
23:51 VanessaE   and only the *sound effects* are event-based aside from the two things above.,
23:51 paramat    'you can mute the music' is also no argument for adding a terrible idea
23:52 red-002    you don't seem to have a good agrument for why it's a bad idea other then that you think a lot of people do it
23:52 Fixer      music? you don't even have sound for flowing water, nor your hand display anything when viewed outside /music...
23:52 VanessaE   a thousand game companies say "terrible idea" is probably wrong.  Hell, even first-person shooters have (or had) music.
23:52 paramat    music reacting to biomes would be stomach-churningly cheesy. MC rightly doesn't do this
23:53 VanessaE   paramat: no one said biomes.
23:53 red-002    and we don't have to copy mt
23:53 red-002    mc*
23:53 VanessaE   just menu, above-ground, underground, maybe something that plays when you're fighting something
23:53 VanessaE   doesn't need to be much
23:53 red-002    ^
23:53 red-002    music is meant to set the tone
23:53 paramat    red depends what you mean by 'it', music can be excellent if done well
23:54 red-002    The use of incidental music dates back at least as far as Greek drama.
23:54 red-002    if wikipedia is correct
23:55 paramat    a thousand game companies create mainstream clones with no artistic merit, doesn't make them right
23:55 VanessaE   I wasn't talking about cloners
23:55 VanessaE   I was talking about companies that make or made original games
23:55 paramat    i'm not arguing against all use of music, read back
23:55 VanessaE   I know, but you said "terrible idea"
23:56 red-002    ^
23:56 VanessaE   that sounds like an argument against music.
23:56 paramat    no, that was for music being closely tied to events or environments
23:57 red-002    ...
23:57 paramat    MC has the right idea, the music is completely independent from events or environments
23:57 red-002    or they couldn't be bothered to add it
23:58 paramat    this reminds me of arguing with RBA :] he had the worst imaginable approach to music in games
23:58 VanessaE   heh
23:58 red-002    really I dom't think there is any point to music otherwise
23:58 red-002    don't*
23:58 VanessaE   looking at http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Music  it would appear you're not entirely right about MC music
23:59 VanessaE   paramat: ^
23:59 VanessaE   some of MC's music IS environment-oriented.
23:59 paramat    visuals too we were polar opposites
23:59 paramat    oh ok
23:59 red-002    well good background music is not obvious
23:59 paramat    not in an overly obvious stereotyped way