| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:12 |
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| 06:10 |
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| 08:21 |
Zeno` |
paramat, #4769 |
| 08:22 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4769 -- Credit where credit is due |
| 08:22 |
Zeno` |
paramat I don't think every single person needs to be named at all |
| 08:22 |
paramat |
ok |
| 08:22 |
Zeno` |
but why is the work that server operators etc do not exceptional? |
| 08:23 |
Zeno` |
maybe we don't need to dedicate the release to them |
| 08:23 |
Zeno` |
but just add some kind of "thanks" |
| 08:23 |
Zeno` |
that can stay forever |
| 08:23 |
paramat |
hm well by definition all of them can't be exceptional ;] |
| 08:24 |
Zeno` |
minetest gets boring pretty quickly without those people running MP servers :) |
| 08:25 |
paramat |
yeah, anyway i'm not particularly opposed |
| 08:26 |
|
blaze joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:26 |
Zeno` |
:) |
| 08:26 |
Zeno` |
apart from the monetary cost of running a server, it can take a lot of time as well (I know, I ran a semi-popular server for quite a while) |
| 08:27 |
Zeno` |
onwards and upwards |
| 08:27 |
* Zeno` |
reviews some PRs |
| 08:34 |
|
nrzkt joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:43 |
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AcidNinjaFWHR joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:46 |
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Krock joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:46 |
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Krock joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:00 |
paramat |
#4742 seems good |
| 09:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4742 -- Fix crash when attached object no longer exists by Rogier-5 |
| 09:02 |
|
red-001 joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:03 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 09:03 |
Zeno` |
added my tick |
| 09:08 |
paramat |
#4608 seems good +1 |
| 09:08 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4608 -- Install texture_packs.txt to DOCDIR by yyt16384 |
| 09:10 |
nrzkt |
merging #4742 |
| 09:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4742 -- Fix crash when attached object no longer exists by Rogier-5 |
| 09:10 |
Zeno` |
paramat, +1 |
| 09:11 |
Zeno` |
nrzkt, to save confusion you should probably have left that to the person who brought it up (in this case paramat) :P~~~~ |
| 09:11 |
red-001 |
could someone take a look at #4472 ? |
| 09:11 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4472 -- Make serverlist searchable. by red-001 |
| 09:11 |
nrzkt |
Zeno`, because i have a request changes tag on this PR i removed it and merge :) |
| 09:11 |
nrzkt |
it's a trivial fix |
| 09:12 |
nrzkt |
#4608 can be merged now paramat it's trivial |
| 09:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4608 -- Install texture_packs.txt to DOCDIR by yyt16384 |
| 09:12 |
Zeno` |
nrzkt, I know. But say paramat was modifying a local copy (for some bizarre reason) of the diff? |
| 09:13 |
Zeno` |
it wouldn't be likely for 4742, but lol... a more complicated merge might |
| 09:13 |
Zeno` |
anyway, just thought it worth mentioning |
| 09:14 |
paramat |
i won't be merging anything for an hour, and will always warn first |
| 09:16 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:16 |
paramat |
i'm working on my mgv7 floatland PR, hopefully will merge that within a week |
| 09:17 |
Zeno` |
yep |
| 09:17 |
Zeno` |
merge that other one though |
| 09:18 |
Zeno` |
4608 |
| 09:18 |
Zeno` |
or nrzkt can merge it |
| 09:18 |
Zeno` |
I just can't atm :( |
| 09:18 |
Zeno` |
github is being stupidly slow |
| 09:18 |
nrzkt |
param i can merge 4608 if you are okay |
| 09:21 |
paramat |
yeah go ahead, i have to eat now |
| 09:21 |
paramat |
there are some others too |
| 09:21 |
nrzkt |
done |
| 09:22 |
paramat |
hm i'd really like #2827 |
| 09:22 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2827 -- Allow overriding the hand by TeTpaAka |
| 09:23 |
Zeno` |
2827? |
| 09:23 |
Zeno` |
how old is that?! |
| 09:23 |
paramat |
but i'm still trying to work out how to use it |
| 09:23 |
paramat |
.. so i can test it |
| 09:23 |
Zeno` |
hehe |
| 09:24 |
Zeno` |
I am being invaded by flying ants! (termites) |
| 09:38 |
Foghrye4_ |
Ok, while paramat has quit would someone be so kind to remove [Controversal] [Needs improvement] and [Won't add] labels from #4705 |
| 09:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4 |
| 09:45 |
est31 |
mhh arent ants and termites of different anchestry? |
| 09:45 |
est31 |
yes |
| 09:46 |
est31 |
termites are related to cockroaches and ants are related to wasps and bees |
| 09:47 |
Zeno` |
ok smarty |
| 09:47 |
Zeno` |
you're right :P |
| 09:47 |
Zeno` |
Foghrye4_, why do we have to remove them while paramat is absent? |
| 09:48 |
Foghrye4_ |
Zeno, to avoid "labels war" and to merge it before paramat complain. |
| 09:49 |
Zeno` |
I'll remove "won't add" but not the others |
| 09:50 |
Foghrye4_ |
Why not? [Needs improvement] is a bullshit as well. |
| 09:50 |
Zeno` |
I haven't reviewed it fully |
| 09:51 |
Zeno` |
(heck, I'm still reading the comments hehe) |
| 09:51 |
Foghrye4_ |
est31 and sfan5 already reviewed it. |
| 09:51 |
Zeno` |
yeah and hmmmm (kwoleker) has made some points against adding it |
| 09:51 |
Zeno` |
I need to review myself as well |
| 09:52 |
Zeno` |
I removed the "Won't Add" because from what I currently see the label wasn't appropriate |
| 09:52 |
Foghrye4_ |
kwoleker thinks blend is an Irrlicht feature. And this is a terrible mestake. |
| 09:52 |
Foghrye4_ |
*mistake |
| 09:53 |
Zeno` |
possibly. As I said I haven't reviewed it myself yet |
| 09:53 |
Zeno` |
I don't like "blocking" PRs |
| 09:54 |
Foghrye4_ |
Yeah, me too ^^ |
| 09:54 |
Zeno` |
but with this many comments... well, I have to read them all and do a full review before I can just remove labels willy nilly |
| 09:54 |
Zeno` |
I hope you can understand that :( |
| 09:54 |
Foghrye4_ |
It would be pleasure for me, if you read them and make your decision. |
| 09:55 |
Zeno` |
gosh, you've put a lot of work into it |
| 09:55 |
Zeno` |
even documentation |
| 09:55 |
Foghrye4_ |
Indeed. |
| 09:56 |
Foghrye4_ |
And still paramat can't understand how it works. Even with all documentation. |
| 09:56 |
Zeno` |
what's paramat's main concern with it? |
| 09:57 |
est31 |
I think he doesnt like it because it only adds visual candy |
| 09:57 |
Zeno` |
(in your opinion) |
| 09:57 |
est31 |
and paramat hates visual candy |
| 09:57 |
Zeno` |
well, that's not a valid reason to block a PR |
| 09:57 |
est31 |
if it were for him, all blocks would look the same |
| 09:57 |
Foghrye4_ |
He don't understand how blend works and did not know how disabling z-buffer write affect translucent particles display. |
| 09:57 |
est31 |
nodes* |
| 09:58 |
Foghrye4_ |
Therefore he don't want to add something, he could not understand. |
| 09:58 |
Foghrye4_ |
And yes, he hates eye candy ^^ |
| 09:59 |
Zeno` |
ok, I agree that the objections seem a bit "without substance" |
| 09:59 |
Zeno` |
I would still like more time to review it more if that's ok |
| 10:00 |
Foghrye4_ |
What if i told you "No, its not ok. MERGE IT NOW!". Of course its OK. |
| 10:02 |
Zeno` |
I'm going to remove "Needs Improvement" as well |
| 10:02 |
Foghrye4_ |
Hooray! |
| 10:02 |
Zeno` |
from a very quick review i'm not sure what exactly needs improving |
| 10:04 |
sfan5 |
Foghrye4_: "there are 2 reviews -> we merge it 100%" isn't a thing |
| 10:04 |
sfan5 |
if there are reasonable concerns from another coredev they have to be addressed |
| 10:05 |
Zeno` |
correct |
| 10:05 |
Zeno` |
and the main person I want to speak to in this instance is hmmmm |
| 10:06 |
Zeno` |
personally I like the PR from what I can see so far |
| 10:08 |
Zeno` |
but as sfan so correctly pointed out, it's not just up to me |
| 10:09 |
Foghrye4_ |
Sofar will be happy as well. |
| 10:09 |
Zeno` |
why? :) |
| 10:09 |
Foghrye4_ |
... with latest changes I made. He wants "vertical frames" animation support. |
| 10:10 |
Foghrye4_ |
And I made it. No other complains. |
| 10:10 |
Zeno` |
ok, well. I'll speak to hmmmm |
| 10:10 |
Zeno` |
the PR is not "Won't Close" now |
| 10:10 |
Zeno` |
I think it should be merged |
| 10:10 |
Zeno` |
but I want to discuss some things with hmmmm first |
| 10:11 |
Zeno` |
err not "Won't add" |
| 10:15 |
sfan5 |
hm, why aren't our clouds transparent? |
| 10:15 |
sfan5 |
they are in minecraft :P -> http://i.imgur.com/2DGhvsZ.png |
| 10:21 |
est31 |
there are transparent too, no? |
| 10:21 |
* est31 |
checks |
| 10:22 |
est31 |
they are indeed |
| 10:23 |
est31 |
http://pasteboard.co/qH0fX83cV.png |
| 10:24 |
est31 |
http://pasteboard.co/qH0ucggf8.png |
| 10:29 |
* Zeno` |
confused now |
| 10:32 |
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| 10:34 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 10:36 |
Krock |
^ http://i.imgur.com/aWwFmDn.gif |
| 10:43 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 10:46 |
celeron55 |
why isn't minetest made in C++ |
| 10:47 |
celeron55 |
ok, i guess i'm being rude now |
| 10:49 |
* Zeno` |
plays the celeron55 song |
| 10:50 |
Krock |
huh? |
| 10:50 |
celeron55 |
:D |
| 10:53 |
sfan5 |
est31: they are not transparent enough then |
| 11:12 |
est31 |
mhh I think this last comment from paramat raises some valid points |
| 11:12 |
est31 |
that it is hard to understand for minetest modders |
| 11:13 |
Foghrye4_ |
Thats no justify removing it from Lua API. If I could understand it, some people also could. |
| 11:14 |
Foghrye4_ |
*not |
| 11:14 |
est31 |
well one of the places minetest is prefered over minecraft is in schools where kids learn to program |
| 11:15 |
est31 |
minetest has very few advantages over minecraft other than the license |
| 11:15 |
est31 |
lets cling to those we have |
| 11:15 |
Foghrye4_ |
Well, in that case we give those kids opportunity to improve their understanding of 3d graphics. |
| 11:16 |
Foghrye4_ |
We are not forcing anyone to use any feature. |
| 11:16 |
Foghrye4_ |
We just give them an option. |
| 11:32 |
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| 11:34 |
Zeno` |
sofar, what are your main objections to #4705? |
| 11:34 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4 |
| 11:35 |
Foghrye4_ |
Sofar is here? |
| 11:35 |
Zeno` |
well his nick is here |
| 11:36 |
Foghrye4_ |
I pind him yesterday and leave PM, but he still did not reply. |
| 11:36 |
Foghrye4_ |
*ping. |
| 11:36 |
Zeno` |
he might be having a very long sleep |
| 11:36 |
Foghrye4_ |
I hope he did not die behind his keyboard. |
| 11:37 |
Zeno` |
no. the parrot is not dead. it's just sleeping |
| 11:38 |
Zeno` |
the only person here who might "get" that comment is probably Krock lol |
| 11:38 |
Krock |
I bet there are others too |
| 11:38 |
Zeno` |
brb, checking my shrubbery |
| 11:45 |
Zeno` |
i did wee wee on it |
| 11:45 |
* Zeno` |
giggles |
| 11:57 |
|
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| 12:09 |
Zeno` |
will merge #4705 in 1 hour |
| 12:09 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4 |
| 12:11 |
sfan5 |
Zeno`: what about hmmmms concerns? |
| 12:12 |
Zeno` |
the don't seem relevant |
| 12:12 |
Zeno` |
they* |
| 12:14 |
Zeno` |
sfan5, do they seem compelling objections to you? |
| 12:25 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:36 |
sfan5 |
Zeno`: yes |
| 12:39 |
Foghrye4_ |
sfan5, where I can read hmmmms concerns? |
| 12:40 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4705#issuecomment-258316096 |
| 12:40 |
Foghrye4_ |
>these are my first general impressions. |
| 12:41 |
sfan5 |
does that make that comment invalid or unimportant? |
| 12:41 |
Foghrye4_ |
He thinks blend is Irrlicht feature, but it is not. Its already was negotiated. |
| 12:42 |
|
troller joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:43 |
sfan5 |
i'd like to see an approval / "withdrawal" of his concern before we merge this |
| 12:43 |
Foghrye4_ |
oh, noes... |
| 12:45 |
est31 |
I agree with sfan5 |
| 12:46 |
Zeno` |
yes ok |
| 12:46 |
Zeno` |
I will wait to talk with hmmmm |
| 12:47 |
Zeno` |
I kinda said that already which is why I said an hour (I thought he'd be here by now) |
| 12:48 |
* Foghrye4_ |
sigh in frustration |
| 12:48 |
Zeno` |
but ya know what? |
| 12:48 |
sfan5 |
Foghrye4_: that's how the rules are |
| 12:48 |
Zeno` |
just because hmmmm objects to something doesn't mean that the PR cannot be merged |
| 12:49 |
Zeno` |
as talented as he is, and I respect him very much, he's not the "gatekeeper" |
| 12:49 |
Zeno` |
where if he says no, it means somethign cannot be merged |
| 12:50 |
est31 |
sfan5: about the cloud opacity, I'm okay with the current opacity |
| 12:50 |
est31 |
I don't think we should change it just for the sake of being more similar to minecraft |
| 12:50 |
sfan5 |
maybe we can add an option for cloud opacity |
| 12:51 |
est31 |
good idea |
| 12:52 |
Foghrye4_ |
It could be wonderful, if we could add some "decorative scene node" which is rendered independed from distance and active block range. |
| 12:52 |
Foghrye4_ |
For planets, clouds, satellites and such. |
| 12:53 |
sfan5 |
that would be absolutely horrible |
| 12:53 |
est31 |
yes |
| 12:53 |
Foghrye4_ |
Why? |
| 12:53 |
sfan5 |
the mapblocks might not be loaded, might be unloaded |
| 12:53 |
est31 |
in the ideal case, planets are simply just VAEs |
| 12:53 |
sfan5 |
you don't get changes for far away mapblocks |
| 12:53 |
sfan5 |
etc. |
| 12:53 |
est31 |
and we manage to somehow render lots of stuff from a big distance |
| 12:53 |
Foghrye4_ |
This should not be saved in map blocks. |
| 12:54 |
sfan5 |
but then it's not a node |
| 12:54 |
Foghrye4_ |
How its called in Irrlicht? |
| 12:55 |
Foghrye4_ |
An object inside scene? |
| 12:55 |
|
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| 12:56 |
Foghrye4_ |
Aha, its called "Scene node", sorry. |
| 12:56 |
Foghrye4_ |
http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/classirr_1_1scene_1_1_i_scene_node.html |
| 12:59 |
Foghrye4_ |
Definitely creating such objects and control behavior would fit good in client side API. |
| 12:59 |
Foghrye4_ |
(*of them) |
| 12:59 |
sfan5 |
a server side api could do this too |
| 12:59 |
sfan5 |
and that even could be done right now |
| 13:00 |
sfan5 |
instead of waiting for client side modding to get added somewhen |
| 13:12 |
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| 13:14 |
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| 13:14 |
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| 13:16 |
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| 13:18 |
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| 13:31 |
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| 13:34 |
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| 14:05 |
Foghrye4_ |
Here is a kahrl mentioning that we could cause client crash by assigning incorrect material param value. I could add a check on client or on server side, but any additional check will add a little bit CPU load. What you opinion? |
| 14:05 |
Foghrye4_ |
*your |
| 14:05 |
Foghrye4_ |
*opinions |
| 14:06 |
Foghrye4_ |
And of course I'm about #4705 |
| 14:06 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4705 -- Adding particle blend, glow and animation by Foghrye4 |
| 14:08 |
est31 |
Foghrye4_: do it server side and do it client side |
| 14:09 |
est31 |
both sides are important |
| 14:09 |
Foghrye4_ |
Roger that. |
| 14:09 |
est31 |
server side for helping mod developers |
| 14:09 |
est31 |
client side for ensuring safety |
| 14:10 |
est31 |
best option client side would be to ignore it and print something to error or warningstream |
| 14:32 |
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| 14:41 |
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| 14:46 |
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| 14:48 |
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| 15:24 |
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| 15:28 |
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Shara joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:28 |
Zeno` |
guys I've asked Shara here to share her concerns |
| 15:29 |
Shara |
Hi all. Please blame Zeno` for me poking my nose in here. :) |
| 15:29 |
Zeno` |
you're welcome here anytime you like, Shara |
| 15:29 |
Shara |
I've been getting players on my server who report they cannot use the fly priv on their app unless they pay, despite me granting the priv by default. |
| 15:30 |
Shara |
They are usually children, so it can be difficult to get many details from them. |
| 15:30 |
Shara |
But it seems many of them are ipad users, so there is no official client for me to direct them to instead. |
| 15:30 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, with the current license can anything be done about this? |
| 15:31 |
Zeno` |
or, alternatively, is an official ipad client within our grasp? (I dunno the answer) |
| 15:33 |
Shara |
As much as I don't want to recommend an unofficial client, even knowing one that doesn't have this kind of issue to tell them to look for would be an improvement. |
| 15:36 |
Fixer |
i made long 2 wide stairs down to my deep mine, and now I can't get up, keep getting stuck in those stairs all the time, please fix this bullshit |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: well as far as i know, LGPL is illegal in the app store |
| 15:38 |
Zeno` |
Shara, are they getting the app from the app store? |
| 15:39 |
celeron55 |
there does exist a source of funds that might possibly allow paying someone to make an official iOS port of minetest or maybe buying one of the existing ones |
| 15:39 |
Shara |
I am assuming from the app store. They are children so I don't know what else they would be doing. (note that I don't use tablets to play myself, so might be missing something obvious in this assumption) |
| 15:41 |
Shara |
celeron55: One of the players with this issue last night told me it was the Exploration app. |
| 15:42 |
nrzkt |
just nuke those fucking clones which doesn't participate to the devel |
| 15:45 |
est31 |
its a double edged sword |
| 15:45 |
est31 |
on one hand, these people are bad, because they worsen the experience for the players |
| 15:45 |
est31 |
on the other hand, they are the reason those players play minetest the first place |
| 15:48 |
Shara |
As someone who covers the cost of running a server, though I don't object to that cost itself, it's very disheartening to have other people profit so children can play on my server the way I intend them to. |
| 15:49 |
OldCoder |
|
| 15:49 |
OldCoder |
Wait, this part about LGPL illegal in the app store - is this something we didn't know before? |
| 15:49 |
OldCoder |
est31's point is noted but - and I have talked politely with some of the publishers - nuke them |
| 15:50 |
OldCoder |
Nuke now. I'm tired today and can't do the filings. But I will if nobody else will this month. |
| 15:50 |
OldCoder |
The deciding point for me is that some of these packages... |
| 15:51 |
OldCoder |
Do not even credit the parent project. They have screenshots of my worlds |
| 15:51 |
OldCoder |
and yours |
| 15:51 |
OldCoder |
as though these are *their* creations - the software and the worlds |
| 15:51 |
OldCoder |
Take them down, please |
| 15:51 |
OldCoder |
|
| 15:51 |
OldCoder |
Shara, celeron55, Zeno` ^ |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
I tend to agree |
| 15:52 |
Fixer |
if it is illegal - nuke them |
| 15:52 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, new discussion of this issue ^ |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
if it really is illegal (I dunno) then nuke 'em |
| 15:52 |
est31 |
nuke all illegal forks of minetest |
| 15:52 |
OldCoder |
Yes and no on illegal as in prosecutable - C55 assume holds copyright |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
if it *is* legal then we need our own official client |
| 15:53 |
OldCoder |
LGPL does not waive copyright - or it may assign copyright to FSF |
| 15:53 |
OldCoder |
Zeno`, if the actual rights holder... |
| 15:53 |
Shara |
Any app that is looking to profit in such ways... I'd love to see nuked. |
| 15:53 |
est31 |
obviously, it doesn't waive copyright |
| 15:53 |
OldCoder |
One of the GPLs does transfer copyright IIRC to FSF |
| 15:53 |
est31 |
we can only nuke illegal apps |
| 15:53 |
Zeno` |
but do we have the resources to build an ios client? |
| 15:53 |
OldCoder |
I doubt LGPL does |
| 15:53 |
est31 |
and those should be IMO |
| 15:53 |
Shara |
But problem remains that ipad needs a 'good' option. |
| 15:53 |
est31 |
and if its illegal to have an ios client, then all ios clients should be nuked |
| 15:53 |
est31 |
simple as that |
| 15:54 |
OldCoder |
Anyway the clones are at least technically illegal as in violations of copyright law |
| 15:54 |
OldCoder |
BUT |
| 15:54 |
est31 |
yes |
| 15:54 |
Zeno` |
if it's illegal someone should complain |
| 15:54 |
Zeno` |
preferably c55 |
| 15:54 |
OldCoder |
there are multiple factors involved in terms of "illegal" |
| 15:54 |
Zeno` |
because all our work is transferred to him at the end of the day |
| 15:54 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: did you say "official ios port"? https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/tree/ios_new |
| 15:55 |
OldCoder |
Zeno`, Google will take complaints from involved parties |
| 15:55 |
OldCoder |
Both sfan5 IIRC and I have done filings before |
| 15:55 |
est31 |
We could still have an official ios app on the app store, even when we use the argument of ios apps being illegal |
| 15:55 |
est31 |
to take down forks |
| 15:55 |
sfan5 |
est31: the issue with lgpl and app store remains |
| 15:56 |
est31 |
sfan5: we simply hope that nobody who owns copyright on minetest tries to take down the official client |
| 15:56 |
est31 |
its not a good state to be in, but better than nothing |
| 15:56 |
sfan5 |
well who owns the copyright? |
| 15:57 |
est31 |
subset of these people I guess https://github.com/minetest/minetest/graphs/contributors |
| 15:57 |
est31 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/graphs/contributors |
| 15:57 |
OldCoder |
Hm - Or is it C55 ? |
| 15:57 |
OldCoder |
The contributors can file; his email can be included on contacts list |
| 15:57 |
sfan5 |
hm yeah |
| 15:57 |
est31 |
dunno, I'm not a lawyer |
| 15:57 |
OldCoder |
This satisfies Google requirements |
| 15:57 |
sfan5 |
in theory each one of those could send a dmca |
| 15:58 |
OldCoder |
I spoke with the iOS desk once; they seemed amenable to complaints |
| 15:58 |
OldCoder |
We've done this before - I gather there is new interest - scrolling up... |
| 15:59 |
OldCoder |
C55 has noted something that seems to be new. I gather we haven't specifically mentioned LGPL to Google before. But there are FOSS apps in the Play Store... |
| 15:59 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, can you elaborate on the LGPL point you made earlier? |
| 16:00 |
est31 |
the problem is that the app store basically enforces static linking |
| 16:00 |
OldCoder |
Hm; how are FOSS apps on it? |
| 16:00 |
est31 |
you may not submit which use dynamic linking |
| 16:00 |
est31 |
submit apps* |
| 16:00 |
OldCoder |
Are ALL GPL FOSS apps there inappropriate? |
| 16:01 |
est31 |
yes |
| 16:01 |
OldCoder |
Whoa |
| 16:01 |
est31 |
VLC player got thrown off apple app store |
| 16:01 |
est31 |
because of GPL |
| 16:01 |
OldCoder |
What about |
| 16:01 |
est31 |
then they rewrote everything under mpl... |
| 16:01 |
OldCoder |
Play Store - VLC is there now |
| 16:01 |
OldCoder |
Ahh |
| 16:01 |
est31 |
and play store is a different matter |
| 16:01 |
est31 |
there you are allowed to use dynamic linking |
| 16:02 |
OldCoder |
est31, what of C55 remarks then? |
| 16:02 |
OldCoder |
Is LGPL per se |
| 16:02 |
OldCoder |
not an issue for Play Store? |
| 16:02 |
est31 |
no its fine |
| 16:02 |
OldCoder |
So, there is not really new information related to Google... |
| 16:03 |
est31 |
I'm not sure tbh whether you can put purely LGPL licensed stuff on the apple app store |
| 16:03 |
OldCoder |
Just some interest. Does anybody wish to help with takedown of Exploration? |
| 16:03 |
est31 |
that may even work |
| 16:03 |
sfan5 |
est31: the problems arise from the "allow the user to use different libraries" clause, right? |
| 16:03 |
est31 |
sfan5: I think so. |
| 16:03 |
est31 |
but the other clauses can cause problems too |
| 16:04 |
est31 |
its all a matter of interpretation |
| 16:05 |
sfan5 |
which others? |
| 16:05 |
est31 |
"For an executable, the required form of the "work that uses the Library" must include any data and utility programs needed for reproducing the executable from it." |
| 16:05 |
est31 |
this may pose a problem with app signing |
| 16:05 |
est31 |
but idk, I'm no lawyer |
| 16:06 |
est31 |
the license text continues |
| 16:06 |
est31 |
" |
| 16:06 |
est31 |
It may happen that this requirement contradicts the license restrictions of other proprietary libraries that do not normally accompany the operating system. Such a contradiction means you cannot use both them and the Library together in an executable that you distribute. " |
| 16:06 |
OldCoder |
Wait |
| 16:06 |
OldCoder |
So technically |
| 16:06 |
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| 16:07 |
sfan5 |
the first one sounds like you should include the build system |
| 16:07 |
OldCoder |
Well, I dispute the FSF position that dynamic linking is the same as static |
| 16:07 |
OldCoder |
But |
| 16:07 |
sfan5 |
and not just throw a few source files at the user |
| 16:07 |
OldCoder |
If you accept that position |
| 16:07 |
OldCoder |
Almost no LGPL or GPL apps should be legal |
| 16:07 |
OldCoder |
Am I missing something? |
| 16:07 |
est31 |
sfan5: that's what its made for |
| 16:07 |
OldCoder |
Unless they are built with a pure FOSS framework |
| 16:08 |
sfan5 |
est31: IANAL but i'm pretty sure they don't mean that you should include gcc, the linux kernel and a coupon to buy a computer with that |
| 16:08 |
est31 |
OldCoder: the license also says " However, as a special exception, the materials to be distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable. " |
| 16:08 |
sfan5 |
so it should be fine |
| 16:08 |
OldCoder |
Right, est31 but don't... |
| 16:08 |
sfan5 |
ah they even have some text for that |
| 16:08 |
OldCoder |
many Play Store apps link against other stuff? |
| 16:09 |
sfan5 |
hm |
| 16:09 |
sfan5 |
est31: actually why could every single minetest contributor dmca a minetest app? |
| 16:09 |
sfan5 |
their contributions are licensed under lgpl, as long as that is followed |
| 16:10 |
est31 |
as long as lgpl is followed nobody can be dmca'd |
| 16:10 |
est31 |
I suggested to put an official app on the play store that is tolerated or not known about by all minetest contributors |
| 16:11 |
est31 |
and dmca'ing all other apps on the app store |
| 16:11 |
est31 |
s/play/app/ |
| 16:11 |
red-001 |
not a bad plan |
| 16:11 |
sfan5 |
this isn't an issue with the play store as far as i'm aware |
| 16:12 |
sfan5 |
the problem occurs when you try to publish to the app store (iOS) |
| 16:12 |
est31 |
yes, its its no issue with the play store. |
| 16:12 |
est31 |
thats why I said s/play/app/ |
| 16:12 |
est31 |
:) |
| 16:12 |
red-001 |
I used to have a list of all minetest clones on the app store |
| 16:13 |
est31 |
It may theoretically even be legal to put something LGPL licensed on the app store |
| 16:13 |
est31 |
as long as the whole app is lgpl licensed |
| 16:13 |
est31 |
no proprietary components |
| 16:14 |
est31 |
but I'm not really sure |
| 16:14 |
sfan5 |
there are none |
| 16:14 |
est31 |
all the info I can find on the net is about using LGPL licensed libraries alongside proprietary ones, or inside proprietary apps |
| 16:15 |
est31 |
but we have a completely LGPL'd (or LGPL-able like for irrlicht/libvorbis etc) codebase |
| 16:16 |
sfan5 |
on iOS static linking is required for: Irrlicht, freetype, leveldb, ogg/vorbis |
| 16:16 |
est31 |
all these things have non copyleft licenses |
| 16:17 |
sfan5 |
you can even drop the last three if you don't want sound, nice fonts or leveldb |
| 16:21 |
est31 |
http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement |
| 16:21 |
red-001 |
found the list of clones: http://pastebin.com/tSscP1QV |
| 16:21 |
est31 |
this "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein." is part of the LGPL too |
| 16:22 |
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| 16:22 |
sfan5 |
well that clause is impossible to fulfil with app store |
| 16:39 |
OldCoder |
Next steps? |
| 16:41 |
celeron55 |
basically, apple users are screwed like they have always been and always will be |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
more news at 11 |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
too bad they're kids |
| 16:43 |
celeron55 |
it'll be a long lesson 8) |
| 17:20 |
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red-001 |
so it is not possible to have an official build in the app store? |
| 20:49 |
Calinou |
red-001: iOS App Store? nope, it's not possible |
| 20:50 |
Calinou |
Mac App Store probably as well |
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| 21:35 |
KaadmY |
in doc/lua_api.txt: "You can send such improvements as source code patches to <email>." |
| 21:36 |
KaadmY |
should that be changed to say do a PR on github |
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