Time Nick Message 01:15 paramat trivial docs update #4651 will merge later 01:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4651 -- Lua_api.txt: Clarify 'override_meta' bool in 'set mapgen setting' by paramat 03:28 paramat damage sounds for consideration game#1336 sofar bbl 03:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1336 -- Default: Add damage sounds by paramat 04:01 sofar paramat: not bad! 04:45 paramat i'll merge #4573 #4651 in a moment 04:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4573 -- Damage flash: Reduce maximum alpha. Avoid fade overload by paramat 04:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4651 -- Lua_api.txt: Clarify 'override_meta' bool in 'set mapgen setting' by paramat 04:51 paramat merging 04:53 garywhite So paramat I know that 4.14 came out in May, so my guess is the next version will come out in spring 2017? 04:54 paramat around Dec 21st 04:55 paramat so it can be a solstice / xmas thing 04:55 paramat merged 05:23 garywhite night all 05:24 * garywhite wanders off to bed 11:11 _Megaf Hi folks 11:12 _Megaf est31: do you know if Rogier uses IRC? 11:12 _Megaf He is doing a great work with the compression thing and other things too 11:13 est31 _Megaf: he's here only very rarely, if I recall correctly 11:13 est31 yes, rogier is doing great work 11:13 _Megaf That last 30% increase in speed got me, that was unexpected 11:14 _Megaf Anyhow, I'd like to be able to choose the compression lib for my server 11:14 _Megaf we can choose the db backend, so why not choosing the compression lib to? 11:15 _Megaf Every server has it's different needs 11:15 est31 because it needs to be baked into the protocol 11:15 est31 every client must ship with all compression libraries 11:15 est31 essentially we must bundle all compression libraries we allow in the source code 11:15 est31 it isnt as simple as with db backends 11:15 _Megaf Oh 11:15 _Megaf I see 11:16 _Megaf with db is easier because clients don't need them 11:16 est31 yes 11:17 nrzkt est31: i did the requested changes on the PR and answer on the getPlayerSAO() point 11:17 _Megaf ok, so let's just get the fastest that don't increase the db size. 11:21 Megaf "@est31: I did some more investigation using perf and strace, and it turns out the malloc library is actually the culprit! It will repeatedly munmap() a free()d 5MB area of memory, only to mmap() it again on the subsequent malloc() in the zstd code. The original code even mmap()ed and munmap()ed 2 areas of 5MB and one of 2MB for every compression operation... Every time again, at least one of the 5MB areas is zeroed with memset(). How's that for a 11:21 Megaf way to avoid having to turn on the heater when it's cold :-)" 11:21 Megaf That explains a lot on low power CPUs 11:54 Fixer it is not mine, just look how chat is done, just add entry field below chat text output and scroll and you are done 12:01 sfan5 est31: right now it looks like that *IF* we replace zlib it would be a good idea to go with brotli because of reduced size, what do you think? 12:51 est31 sfan5: yes, currently it looks like brotli is the best option 12:51 est31 but it would be great if we could test dictionaries before that 12:51 est31 whether they give a benefit or not 12:52 est31 (and whether zstd then performs better than brotli then) 12:56 nrzkt sfan5: i don't agree space is a good point except for network reasons, depending on the diff. The most important thing is to serialize/deserialize mapblocks fast with a good compression ratio, but not the best 12:57 Calinou LZ4 seems the most appropriate here 12:57 Calinou disk space is cheap, very cheap, CPU is definitely not so 12:57 Calinou and bandwidth is relatively affordable in general 12:57 nrzkt yes, i also think LZ4 is the best approach, it consume a little bit more space but CPU overhead is just ridiculous 12:58 Calinou LZ4 is ridiculously fast :p 12:58 PR4530lives Calinou: some admins will disagree 12:58 est31 O.o getting github unicorns 12:58 PR4530lives Calinou: it is pain to backup a large world 12:58 Calinou the worlds won't be larger by that much 12:58 nrzkt why ZFS has LZ4 ondisk compression + gzip + lzo instead of brotli and zstd ? 12:58 nrzkt PR4530lives: LZ4 world size only increase ~5-10% 12:58 Calinou https://facebook.github.io/zstd/ 12:58 PR4530lives Calinou: bandwidth is important for many since they are running server on their machinesz 12:58 Calinou LZ4 reads at 3,100 MB/s 12:59 Calinou PR4530lives: no, the majority of medium/large-sized servers run on VPSes or dedis, which have unmetered bandwidth (or several TBs of metered bandwidth) 12:59 Calinou home servers are kind of fading away, since the price of VPSes is going down for better specs and service 12:59 PR4530lives Calinou: minetest servers? 12:59 Calinou yes 13:00 PR4530lives i have opposite impression 13:00 nrzkt i use LZ4 as a compression method on my server to store mapblocks into postgresql and there is not decompression/compression penalty, my CPU was very very lightweight now 13:00 PR4530lives people still prefer home hardware 13:00 nrzkt PR4530lives: take the serverlist, whois each server and verify :) 13:00 PR4530lives it is probably in between 13:00 PR4530lives nrzkt: actually a good idea 13:01 Calinou yeah but I get the feeling most servers are in datacenters, not in people's homes 13:01 Calinou especially if you exclude servers with a low amount of players on average 13:01 nrzkt decompression of non loaded mapblocks or compression to save mapblocks take ~10% used CPU in a running server. LZ4 reduce this to 2-3% 13:02 PR4530lives Calinou: i believe both just test, just test ii and xanadu with lots of players are on home hardware 13:02 nrzkt to be precise, when i did my last tests on LZ4 on my server with valgrind, the most consuming process after ABM was GZIP compression 13:02 Calinou yeah but they have a good amount of bandwidth 13:02 Calinou they're not hosted on a low-end ADSL line, I believe 13:02 nrzkt with LZ4 i didn't see LZ4 compression in the top 20 actions performs by the server 13:03 est31 LZ4 takes more than double as much space 13:03 nrzkt this is wrong est31 13:03 nrzkt did you test with very heavy mapblocks or empty ? 13:04 est31 https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/6202053/19588218/853eeb94-9764-11e6-8738-8db608984707.png 13:04 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4495#issuecomment-255305550 13:04 Calinou ah 13:04 Calinou is this really a problem though? I figure people host servers on HDD machines, and can afford the added storage 13:05 Calinou SSDs are also getting larger, although some low-end VPSes stick with 20-40 GB SSDs (but you shouldn't host a large server on those...) 13:05 sfan5 >and bandwidth is relatively affordable in general 13:05 sfan5 no it isn't 13:05 nrzkt est31, Calinou: my db size with 100% generated mapblocks only uses 15GB 13:05 Calinou sfan5: it's unmetered on my VPS here :) 13:05 sfan5 dont think about your vps 13:05 sfan5 think about mobile users 13:05 nrzkt for mobile users CPU is the principal problem 13:05 Calinou do we care about people playing on crap mobile networks? I think it's a worthless idea 13:05 sfan5 and don't come citing your mobile plan with 20GB you pay 10€/mo for 13:05 Calinou it is doable to play on 4G, but other than that, just stop it 13:05 sfan5 people in brazil dont have that shit 13:05 nrzkt not the BW as the 4G is everywhere now 13:06 Calinou we are not developing a game for mobile clones with ads. 13:06 Calinou we are developing a game for us :) 13:06 sfan5 4g is not everywhere either 13:06 Calinou playing a game on 3G is asking for trouble 13:06 sfan5 okay then go on and delete the android port 13:06 sfan5 since we don't need it apparently 13:06 Calinou except if it's chess or something like that 13:06 nrzkt in fact our mobile experience is just bad in fact as we don't have proper controls for android :p 13:06 nrzkt but maybe some clones have modified it heh 13:07 Calinou also for what it's worth, Minetest is pretty lightweight on bandwidth compared to Minecraft. 13:07 sfan5 and that justifies making the mobile experience even worse? 13:07 Calinou so we can double our bandwidth requirements, we should still be below Minecraft. (or on a similar level) 13:07 est31 so, lets make it worse 13:07 Calinou nrzkt: first person games on a phone are an oxymoron 13:07 est31 because minetest has to be worse than minecraft, no? 13:07 Calinou I'd consider them remotely playable on a 10" only 13:10 PR4530lives Calinou: i've looked most popular servers, and it is evident that most popular once a on home hardware 13:10 nrzkt Calinou: i think we should use the accelerometer for mobile users with minetest to permit them to move in the world xD 13:10 PR4530lives are* 13:10 PR4530lives Ukraine is rolling out 4G only now, and that East Europe for you 13:11 PR4530lives most of servers with lots of players are on home hardware it seems 13:11 PR4530lives bandwidth is important for some of them 13:11 PR4530lives since many ISPs got SHITTY upload rates 13:12 Calinou I could play Minetest perfectly with 0.3 Mb/s upload back in 2012 :P 13:12 Calinou (as a client) 13:12 Calinou also, isn't MapBlock sending, as a client, mostly downloading? 13:13 Calinou nrzkt: when you say you have a fully generated world, is it from -31000,-31000,-31000 to 31000,31000,31000? 13:14 nrzkt Calinou: yes 13:15 est31 tbh, I can't believe it only takes 15 GB 13:15 est31 nrzkt: do you use postgres compression? 13:15 nrzkt i have added a background processor on my server which emerge all blocks periodically from 0 to abs(X),abs(Y),abs(Z) 13:21 nrzkt est31: no it's not a good option for our use case 13:21 nrzkt and on my disk i don't compress to increase the fetch time for my pgsql 13:21 nrzkt and i also use a SSL connection to my pg 13:24 nrzkt note: it's a pg 9.6 13:24 nrzkt but only since 2 weeks :p 13:24 Fixer Calinou: it is not about client, thats about server upload 13:25 Calinou don't hosts servers on ADSL connections ._. 13:25 Fixer Calinou: for example Cash Wolrd starts to have problems somewhere at 20 players and he has 2Mbit of upload iirc 13:25 Fixer Calinou: people will since it is just a hobby 13:26 nrzkt Fixer: with 20 players generally it's not upload the problem but engine itself, especially with many lua and ABMs 13:26 Fixer nrzkt: no 13:26 nrzkt minetest bw is very lightweight 13:26 Fixer nrzkt: max_lag is nice, network lag is big 13:26 Fixer nrzkt: look at xanadu, it has lots of mods and still works nice with 40 players 13:27 Fixer if you don't use heavy mods it works nice most of the time 13:28 Fixer jt II with 28 players, max_lag 0.6 13:29 Fixer Calinou: i believe some vps are rip off, look at some servers, like LinuxGaming, with no players it has huge max_lag 7 because of some BS VPS 13:29 Fixer same with LibertyLand 13:30 Fixer one thing is dedicated server, another thing is some virtualised crap 13:45 Calinou if you want high-performance gaming, you need a dedi anyway 13:46 Calinou people happily pay €40+ a month to host Minecraft servers 16:03 Fixer not sure if happily though 16:05 sfan5 also, isn't MapBlock sending, as a client, mostly downloading? 16:05 sfan5 clients don't send any mapblocks 16:05 sfan5 only changes to individual nodes 18:54 paramat sfan5 rubenwardy game#1336 18:54 ShadowBot paramat: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request." 18:54 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/1336 add damage sounds 18:55 Krock I expected some kind of "OUCH!" but this is good too :) 18:55 Krock Wilhelm Scream, for example 18:59 nrzkt github down in france because SERVFAIL in DNS... :( 18:59 nrzkt who is the operator \o` 19:00 Krock \o` = Zeno` 19:00 nrzkt backslash Zeno :) thanks Krock 19:01 Krock operator? Looks more like voice to me 19:01 Krock np 19:01 \o` heh, yeah voice 19:02 garywhite o/ 19:02 \o` \o/ 19:02 nrzkt voice yes :) 19:03 paramat so, we're still looking for some hero to complete #4530 19:03 ShadowBot paramat: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request." 19:04 paramat "Fix superflous shader setting updates" 19:04 \o` #4530 19:05 ShadowBot \o`: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request." 19:05 \o` grr 19:05 nrzkt lol you have same problem as everybody 19:05 nrzkt https://www.dynstatus.com/incidents/nlr4yrr162t8 19:06 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4530 19:06 \o` oh that one. I'm staying clear of it :( 19:07 paramat i might have to bug hmmmm 19:09 paramat greg est and the 'ninj don't have time 19:11 sofar nobody can read PRs atm :) 19:11 sofar I'm surprised I even get mail messages delivered from github atm 19:11 sofar since smtp servers can't reverse lookup the origin 19:14 \o` I read the PR 19:15 \o` github is working fine for me 19:15 \o` although I've noticed that it's not for a lot of people (not only mentioned here but in other channels) 19:16 \o` rock and roll (apparently) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKJQ18ZoIA 19:17 * \o` dances on his desk 19:17 Krock babala allahu ahkbar ala 19:19 nrzkt \o`, in australia problems are far away from US :p 19:20 \o` nrzkt, yeah they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csaUvkYOkLY 19:21 \o` I remember that song fondly from the soundtracker version on Amiga lol 19:22 \o` we should really add tracker support, but it's not as easy as I first thought it might be 19:23 \o` on the Amiga a soundtracker player was short and sweet... but on PC it's very complicated (almost, if not have to, emulate the sound Amiga's chip) 19:24 \o` I'm halfway there using raspberry pi 19:24 \o` if it all turns out ok I can port it to minetest 19:30 nrzkt \o`, i think we should port MT on Amiga *joke* 19:32 \o` it might be a joke... but it's not impossible (well maybe not onto the 68k amigas) 19:32 \o` to modern AmigaOS it's probably possible 19:33 nrzkt \o`, and MT on TI68plus ? :) 19:33 \o` lol maybe not that 19:34 \o` nrzkt, are you in france? 19:35 nrzkt ofc 19:35 \o` nrzkt, can you introduce me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliz%C3%A9e ? 19:36 nrzkt lol, she is older than the photo now, and we didn't talk about her since hir Moi Lolita in 2001 xD 19:36 \o` heh 19:36 nrzkt i think you should look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimie_Mathy 19:37 nrzkt a very popular actress xD 19:37 \o` umm. hmmm 19:38 \o` I would look at her, but I am devoted to Alizée 19:39 nrzkt :p 19:44 \o` I should listen to French music more often. The songs not only have catchy tunes but they have deep and meaningful lyrics 19:44 \o` like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDfmn_TMkI 19:44 est31 It makes me a bit sad that I couldn't find a cross platform library to make joysticks give force feedback on damage 19:45 est31 I think this would be really useful 19:45 est31 together with https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/1336 19:45 \o` don't feel bad, est31, Ca Plane Pour Moi 19:45 sofar #1336 19:45 ShadowBot sofar: Error: Delimiter not found in "Page is too big or the server took too much time to answer the request." 19:45 sofar even the bot can't read github 19:45 est31 lol, github works for me 19:46 sofar lucky for you, your ISP has a cached github.com A record cached 19:46 sofar the rest of us are fucked 19:46 est31 1336 has title "Default: Add damage sounds" 19:46 sofar I've not seen a github page in 3 hours now 19:46 est31 "@paramat 19:46 est31 minetest member 19:46 est31 paramat commented 16 hours ago • edited 19:46 est31 Damage and falling damage sounds (one sound for both). 19:46 est31 No volume balancing or credits yet. 19:46 est31 " 19:46 \o` github works for me 19:46 \o` weird 19:46 est31 sofar: edit your host file 19:46 est31 and add ip address 192.30.253.113 for github 19:46 sofar it doesn't work from my VPS in the netherlands, nor from my VPS in germany, nor from home 19:47 sfan5 sofar: why not 19:47 est31 its dns issue 19:47 sfan5 github has been fine all the time here 19:47 sfan5 unlike twitter 19:47 sofar massive DDOS on DNS 19:47 est31 https://status.github.com/ 19:47 sofar ;; Got answer: 19:47 sofar ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 43371 19:47 Krock GitHub: ok, Twitter: ok 19:47 Krock OpenDNS works fine right now 19:48 nrzkt sofar, same in france 19:48 est31 github failed about two hours ago for me 19:48 est31 but now its okay again 19:48 nrzkt google DNS, opendns, root servers, orange , illiad/free, all are empty 19:48 sofar I can check from 3 countries, and yes google's dns also fails 19:49 nrzkt maybe we can try south corea or china they have cheating DNS in these countries :p 19:49 sofar actually, seems google now has it 19:49 sofar dig github.com @8.8.4.4 19:49 sofar but I don't use google dns or opendns 19:49 sofar I run my own resolver 19:49 sofar (I'm not trusting my ISP, nor would I rely on google) 19:50 nrzkt sofar, same here, my @home resolver is bound on root servers :) 19:50 sfan5 you *are* already trusting your ISP 19:50 sfan5 whether you use their DNS or not 19:50 sofar sure, I route my packets through them 19:50 nrzkt sfan5, depend on dnssec :p 19:50 sofar exactly 19:51 sofar sfan5: they are more likely to poison their own DNS cache than intercept packets to port 53 19:51 sofar if they start intercepting udp packets and modifying them, a lot of stuff will just break 19:51 sfan5 nah 19:52 sofar sfan5: frontier isn't that capable :D 19:52 sofar they're pretty bad if you ask me 19:53 sofar technically 19:53 sofar they can't even get ipv6 to work 19:53 sfan5 well it obviously depends on the equipment 19:57 est31 well in theory you could do dnssec 20:19 \o` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4 20:19 \o` actually, this one is better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lur-SGl3uw8 20:32 sofar WHOAH 20:33 sofar ITS BAAAACK 20:33 * sofar does happy dance 20:34 \o` WHOA! 20:34 \o` whoa whoa whoa: https://youtu.be/J_twh5alhxg?t=1249 20:35 \o` puff the magic dragon, lived by the sea 20:37 est31 didnt know that frolic was an actual word 20:37 \o` yep it is 20:38 \o` I just wish they sang the whole song 20:39 sofar never saw the short form before 20:39 est31 short? 20:40 sofar always used frollic myself 20:40 sofar maybe that's just bad spelling 20:40 est31 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frollic 20:40 est31 doesnt exist 20:40 est31 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frolic 20:40 est31 exists 20:41 * \o` frolics 20:55 nrzkt frollic is a trademark for dogs no ? 20:55 est31 yes 21:22 \o` https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v22SPtCFck8 21:22 \o` night all 21:51 sofar am I nuts? what methods are called when I press the `use` key? 21:52 sofar is it even doing *anything* ? 21:55 est31 its updating the control fields I tihnk 21:55 est31 think* 21:55 est31 so you can use that 21:57 sofar so that would work inside a vehicle 21:58 sofar but not to enter/leave a vehicle 22:27 paramat any more input on game#1285 ? 22:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1285 -- Destroy flammable items when in fire or lava by Ferk 22:28 paramat cool 23:21 PR4530lives paramat: will I be able to light thrown items on fire with flint and steel? 23:25 paramat no