Time  Nick       Message
02:03 paramat    will merge #4374 #4381 in a moment
02:03 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4374 -- Document how to properly clear node metadata by mtango688
02:03 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4381 -- Create texture_packs.txt + document special textures by rubenwardy
02:11 paramat    now merging
02:15 paramat    done
11:19 Krock      Fast! We need two more pulls to revive page 7
19:10 VanessaE   anyone awake here?
19:11 VanessaE   sofar (et al.), http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/21548693/  um, wut?
19:16 Krock      VanessaE, that's a homedecor error
19:16 VanessaE   yeah I figured, but my point being, the traceback doesn't indicate what failed in the mod
19:16 Krock      vector.add(a, b) was called with a being a table and b = nil
19:16 VanessaE   (and vector stuff isn't my code so I've no idea where to look)
19:16 Krock      doing lookups in the builtin code is very helpful sometimes ;)
19:17 Krock      builtin/common/vector.lua then simply ctrl+F
19:19 VanessaE   hm... shouldn't the vector code have caught this gracefully?
19:19 VanessaE   b != table, so it assumes b = numeric...
19:19 Krock      yep. what should it do when it's nil
19:20 Krock      nil is obviously an error
19:20 VanessaE   treat b as 0?
19:20 VanessaE   (and throw a warning)
19:20 Krock      the target of vector.add is to add a vector and vector/number. Using a nil value there is wrong. Nobody uses nil there
19:21 Krock      it's another thing when you initialize ItemStack, as example
19:21 VanessaE   looks like it was thrown while handling a homedecor door or gate
19:21 VanessaE   (there are only two vector.add() calls in homedecor, in doors_and_gates.lua)
19:21 T4im       the stracktrace doesn't say this is from homedecor
19:21 VanessaE   yes it does
19:21 T4im       it's falling nodes
19:22 VanessaE   first line
19:22 VanessaE   doesn't it?
19:22 T4im       that's probably just the last mod that was running when it happened
19:24 T4im       maybe homedecor happens to do something somewhere down that stacktrace causing a callback, but the stacktrace is too short to know that for sure
19:24 Krock      something has the drawtype2 = wallmounted
19:24 Krock      and it failed to convert the rotation to a facedir
19:25 VanessaE   the homedecor function that was running at the time of the crash is used in so many places that I have no hope of debugging this :-/
19:26 Krock      there is a way to debug it
19:26 T4im       well that could be one reason, but only if wallmounted is > 5 or < 0
19:26 Krock      there's no other possibility
19:26 Krock      1 moment.. writing a diff to debug this
19:27 T4im       nothing really catches param2's that are insane
19:27 T4im       nothing prevents it either
19:28 T4im       VanessaE: how often does it happen?
19:28 VanessaE   a param2 that's "insane" sure is the result of either map corruption (unlikely) or maybe a node that had wallmount facedir and is now undefined or not wallmount anymore
19:28 VanessaE   (maybe a sign or a ladder)
19:28 VanessaE   T4im: first I've seen of it.
19:28 VanessaE   homedecor's pretty stable, as is the server this occurred on
19:29 Krock      http://pastebin.com/jxB7EHjk
19:29 T4im       maybe a voxelmanip gone rogue?
19:29 T4im       Krock: that's why I asked how often it happens :p
19:29 T4im       if that is rare, that debug statement won't help much
19:29 Krock      T4im, that's the way to detect if it happens more often after it crashed the first time
19:30 Krock      yes, it could be caused by vmanip or anything else..
19:32 T4im       I'll add a few smoketests to check if expected param-ranges are messed up on normal node placements already, maybe that will already show something in homedecor or _game etc
19:33 T4im       you could very well never notice it, until you attach it to a falling node
19:33 Krock      yeah
19:37 agaran     would be nice if on punch or similar node-centric tracebacks contain at least node name..
19:39 VanessaE   the only other thing the log has before that crash, aside from showing everyone leaving, was someone placing a bookshelf, and then a block of cement.
19:39 VanessaE   (gloopblocks:cement that is, which is afaik a normal node like cobble)
19:40 T4im       neither being attached nor falling, iirc
19:40 VanessaE   correct.
19:44 VanessaE   the only thing in the range of the last placed node that could be "attached" is some homedecor skylights (raillike)
19:44 VanessaE   and those have no special code
19:44 VanessaE   I'm at a total loss here
19:45 VanessaE   T4im: can you sign onto 30008 and teleport to my location?  maybe you can see what I'm not?
19:56 VanessaE   T4im: the aforementioned log, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/21553337/
19:56 VanessaE   last ~8 mins worth because I couldn't see a good place to stop :)
20:50 VanessaE   BINGO!
20:51 VanessaE   T4im: I reproduced it
20:51 T4im       noticed :o
20:51 T4im       how?
20:51 VanessaE   I placed the dartboard, then executed a worldedit //luatransform to force its param2 to 13
20:51 VanessaE   then dug the sand
20:51 T4im       ah, ok, yea ok, the question would be, how the player could do that though
20:52 T4im       :D
20:52 VanessaE   I have no idea.
20:52 T4im       we already knew it was an illegal wallmount value
20:52 paramat    heh
20:52 VanessaE   unless the replacer or the screwdriver somehow rotated it without restriction?
20:52 VanessaE   now the REAL question:  who's fault is this? :)
20:52 T4im       screwdriver I can't imagine, it really checks for facedir as a paramtype2
20:53 VanessaE   what else could do it on that server though?
20:53 VanessaE   there's no pipeworks, technic, or mesecons, so no node placers or command blocks.
20:56 Flear      i may get be laughed at for asking this, ... oh well, ... new to programming, wanting to start off with a voxel game, ... minetest seems as good a place to start as anywhere, ... except in any situation i've come across, learning programming, everywhere seems (and i could be wrong) to all say "start like anyone else, with books, materials, and building source that has nothing to do with
20:56 Flear      what you really want to accomplish"
20:57 VanessaE   Flear: this is more a #minetest question but the answer is:  learn Lua from the PiL or the Programming Lua tutorial, and read up on the minetest API reference.  you can get started easily from minetest_game content
20:57 Flear      so grabbing the source from git-hub, ... in there any simpler way to figure out what each thing is or am i being redirected to "start with the basics, like we did, that have nothing to do with what you really want to accomplish
20:57 VanessaE   try copying the definition for cobble, and modify it to suit
20:58 Flear      first thing i was thinking was switching from cube to docecahedron
20:58 Flear      i'd still have to know what file(s) have the code for cubes
20:58 celeron55  :D
20:58 T4im       :D that would require massive changes in the entire engine, Flear
20:58 VanessaE   minetest_game/mods/default/nodes.lua
20:58 celeron55  sorry but this is ridiculous
20:59 paramat    yeah start with modifying mods, this will help you learn lua
20:59 VanessaE   but yeah, you're not gonna get anything but a cube-based world in MT but you CAN make meshes in any shape you want
20:59 VanessaE   so you can make it look like it's composed of dodec's or whatever else, but it won't truly be.
20:59 paramat    with lua mods you can make huge changes to Minetest easily
20:59 jin_xi     learn to read code and use grep, its a fun thing but you need to take it slow
20:59 VanessaE   yup
21:00 celeron55  Flear: minetest is heavily optimized for a cubical world and almost all code depends on the assumption that the world is made of cubes
21:00 Flear      so can change the visual voxel, but not the actual one without rewriting the entire game, ... hmmm, ... well, that's a good place to start, ... not rewriting the entire thing, but going back to vanessa's idea
21:00 celeron55  Flear: it would be a massive project to change that
21:00 VanessaE   Flear: that's correct.  the whole world is a rectilinear grid, but you can put any shapes you want in the cels.
21:00 VanessaE   cells*
21:00 T4im       yea
21:01 jin_xi     you could just have loosely packed whatevers in the same grid for an airy feeling
21:01 VanessaE   Flear: there's a mod on the forums that uses meshes to create smooth landscapes using slopes of various kinds, for example.
21:01 Flear      i assume changing the size of the voxel is going to be a mix of camera only
21:03 Flear      having the world wrap around is far smarter an idea than building an actual round world i guess as well
21:03 VanessaE   T4im: I'm still at a loss as to what ordinary-user-accessible tool could set a node's param2 like that...
21:03 VanessaE   Flear: the world doesn't wrap.
21:03 VanessaE   (though this has been proposed before)
21:03 T4im       paramat actually generated planets with mapgen iirc, but gravity won't change around it
21:04 T4im       so you'd actually fall if you were in australia
21:04 paramat    i have gravity changing per planet now
21:04 T4im       oh?
21:04 T4im       how :o
21:04 paramat    well changing in strength
21:04 T4im       ah
21:04 paramat    sorry
21:04 Flear      vanessa, no, but it should be relatively easy to do
21:05 VanessaE   Flear: it's been assumed that this would be rather difficult, actually.  but you're welcome to try
21:05 VanessaE   (I figure X/Z wrap is all that would be needed)
21:05 paramat    Flear https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=12889 see screenshots, all lua
21:05 Flear      vanessa, its easy enough, ... ya, far beyond my current skills,
21:06 Flear      most discussions out on the net about getting worlds to wrap around are assuming crazy insane complexities, ... i found one talk of how simple it is, ... i don't remember, but i agree (even without knowing how) it's easy enough
21:06 paramat    for world wrap you'll need a custom lua mapgen and clever use of perlin noise
21:07 paramat    there's lots of discussion in the forum on this subject
21:08 Flear      to get seemless wrapping is simple, been done by many over the years with basic graphics (for those who make the attempt) long before voxel games exists,
21:08 OldCoder   I've noticed a hard lockup of perhaps 2 minutes for server announce to list in 0.4.14. Is this now normal and expected?
21:09 * OldCoder has asked this a few times
21:11 Flear      k, ... anyway, more related to what i am looking for, ... the individual files in the minetest source, ... is it trial and error to figure out what all the files pertain to, or anything to get me a gentle push in the right direction ?
21:12 paramat    all you can do is stare at it for years
21:12 VanessaE   paramat: and then go insane? :)
21:12 jin_xi     again, grep is a tool to search text and can be used to great advantage and cut the for years part down
21:12 OldCoder   to mere months
21:12 paramat    then one day i suddenly understood the mapgen code
21:13 VanessaE   Flear: now, to be fair, I learned to code on an old 8-bitter, using mostly magazines and programming manuals that were available for the platform.  of course, that was BASIC, with line numbers, yet.  Lua is at least as easy though.
21:13 OldCoder   Lua=easy C++=nope
21:13 VanessaE   so really, the "read the manuals, do it the way we did" as you put it, really is about the only way to go.
21:14 VanessaE   indeed, forget C++ for now.  start with Lua./
21:14 Krock      or load a C module in Lua :3
21:15 paramat    well, i learnt lua through experimenting with mods, never looked at a manual
21:15 paramat    so you can do it that way
21:15 Flear      i'm hoping for a 50/50 of that, ... have the minetest code, then going through "read the manuals" like you all did, so i know what i'm looking at, ...
21:16 jin_xi     ugh. i found lua to be very weird coming from other languages. manual absolutely needed. idioms like reverse table, very weird at first
21:17 VanessaE   jin_xi: the only thing I found weird about Lua, and handy at the same time, was the way it handles values passing between functions
21:17 VanessaE   (pass-by-reference don't they call it?)
21:25 Flear      would i sound overly annoying if i asked for help on compiling ? ... going through things now so i'm not asking for a step-by-step
21:29 Flear      minetest is (sounds like) programmed for x86, any known issues building for x64 ?
21:31 VanessaE   compiling is pretty easy - cmake . <various options> ; make ; sudo make install
21:31 VanessaE   the various options are stuff like -DRUN_IN_PLACE, -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX, etc.
21:31 Flear      i would think those are explained, just have to find them while i read
21:32 VanessaE   here's how I build, for example:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/21563648/
21:32 Flear      i'm a windows user :/ ... i wish i was familiar with linux, despite certain frustrations that amount to "get with the times"
21:32 VanessaE   (line 9 is just a thing to let me force a full rebuild)
21:33 VanessaE   ew.
21:33 VanessaE   Linux isn't hard to use these days, certainly no worse than Windows :)
21:34 Krock      compiling on Linux is quite easy but you'd have to spend some hours in setting it up on Windows :3
21:34 Flear      it's the changeover, ... what i am familiar with is all in windows, ... and dual-boot means shutting down one to go to the other, ... or going to an emulator
21:35 Flear      krock, ... tell me about it, ... :(, ... hours, or days if things just aren't working & you don't know why you can't find a particular thing, ... so the GCC ported over in MinGW
21:35 VanessaE   Flear: I always advise Linux for the underlying OS, and a virtual machine for Win if you really must have it
21:36 Flear      currently a partition layout and sandbox environment in windows to isolate programs so i maintain stability (windows is crap for stability)
21:36 Flear      well windows is great for stability, ... till you install a program, any program, any one at all, then windows is crap
21:37 Flear      i've found a way to keep my stability
21:37 Flear      it just locks me into windows that little bit more :(
21:37 celeron55  http://dev.minetest.net/Category:Core
21:38 celeron55  i don't know about you others but i would say this is a good first read if someone wants to understand the engine
21:39 Flear      thanks :)
21:46 Flear      i'm better off going through an emulator with linux installed aren't i ?
21:52 paramat    for minetest, yes
21:55 Flear      now i need a high-end emulator, ... ones i have (for sandbox compatability) don't support x64
21:55 Flear      dual boot, ... argg
21:56 Flear      yes, i know, wrong room, ... ideas for low resource consumption linux distro's, ... rather specifically so i can run an emulator for windows in ?
21:56 agaran     hmm I recompiled minetest on 32bit machine.. server works fine..
21:59 Flear      ya, ... it's the compiler part i am having issues with, ... well this time visual studio is actually installing instead of giving up right away
22:00 Flear      maybe, ... seems to be stuck at net framework 4.6.1, ... which was the same issue it had before >:(
22:04 Flear      i can do a lot with my computer, ... i could do much more if i was willing to sacrifice my OS stability and speed, ... because i am stubborn about my speed and stability, it imposes restrictions on what i can do
22:06 Flear      i would have switched to linux long ago if i still had access the the applications i am familiar with
22:06 VanessaE   that's why you use it as your base OS and use a virtual machine for the windows stuff, until you get used to the Linux equivalents.
22:08 VanessaE   T4im: abrac managed to cause that crash again
22:12 Flear      previously, every time i wanted to get into linux the installers made little distinction on informing me on what i was installing, ... dependancies vs. the actual programs, and little information on what the actual programs were, ... leaving me putting in everything from the installer, and then running it was now confusing as i had no idea what anything was and there was way too many
22:12 Flear      programs to pick through, ... every few years i made the attempt, every time i gave up in frustration, ... i would say the installers have gotten smarter. but "smarter" is a relative term, ...
22:13 Flear      i know there is a huge importance in the linux community about fairness and equality about not promoting any particular program over others, ... but come-on, give me a place to start, even if it's a crap program so i want to find something better, at least it's a place to start
22:14 Flear      needless to say i still use windows
22:17 Flear      closed wrong box :)
22:21 T4im       VanessaE: does he know how? O_o
22:22 paramat    please can non-mt-dev discussion (linux/windows/emulators) move to #minetest channel? thanks
22:23 VanessaE   T4im: no, but actually he was trying to remove the nodes you and I placed, so the last time I triggered the crash, they weren't removed.  Same thing two times after, so I worldedit'ed them out.
22:33 nolsen     Lightning bug: http://imgur.com/a/xR5gc
22:34 paramat    moretrees in mgv7?
22:34 nolsen     paramat: Yes.
22:34 nolsen     Why?
22:34 nolsen     Is moretrees already added?
22:35 paramat    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3421
22:36 paramat    l-system's use of 'updateLighting()' causes shadows, worse in non-mgv6 mapgens
22:36 paramat    bugs in both l-system and updateLighting
22:37 paramat    no moretrees is not added to mtgame
22:39 paramat    l-system causes subtle shadows in mgv6 too
22:44 paramat    sofar game#1220 ? also i'm considering merging your coral PR so i/we can start improving it (extra colour(s) tune distribution)
22:44 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1220 -- Move paper, books and book shelves into separate mod by rubenwardy
23:42 nolsen     2016-07-30 19:42:12: WARNING[Server]: active block modifiers took 412ms (longer than 200ms)
23:42 nolsen     Normal behavior?
23:46 paramat    just a warning of an intensive ABM, some ABMs might be slow
23:46 nolsen     Is there anything I can do about it?
23:46 VanessaE   get a faster CPU? :)
23:47 T4im       when you start up the profiler you should even see, which one it is
23:47 nolsen     VanessaE: Okay, let me yell at digitalocean
23:47 nolsen     "DigitalOcean, Y U NO 2GHZ?
23:47 nolsen     "
23:47 paramat    it's not necessarily a problem, but if possible try makng the ABM simpler
23:47 VanessaE   nolsen: otherwise, check into the code you're running and see if you can rewirte some slow ABM
23:47 VanessaE   rewrite*
23:47 nolsen     I actually have no clue what could it be
23:47 nolsen     I have like 120 mods installed.
23:47 T4im       the profiler does
23:49 nolsen     lag
23:49 nolsen     er
23:49 nolsen     hm, strange
23:49 nolsen     no output
23:49 T4im       profiler.load = true -- then you can use /profiler print
23:50 T4im       but you'll have to restart the game for it to take effect
23:50 T4im       and I am assuming you have a recent build, otherwise you'd have to wait a bit, I guess :/