Time Nick Message 03:11 paramat merging game 1190 03:26 paramat merged 12:59 everamzah #1205 maybe i like opening them as much as he likes closing them 12:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1205 -- Make config honor build system specified config defines by sapier 12:59 everamzah game#1205 12:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1205 -- Deprecations warnings in default mod 12:59 everamzah maybe it's a simple name switch, easy enough 14:52 Fixer !tell paramat any progress on get_biome_info function? 14:52 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K. 15:03 Fixer https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3810 this one is rotting away 15:05 Krock and with it 138 other pull requests 15:20 Fixer this one "needs action" 16:51 VanessaE ok, guys...that static view range thing is NOT working worth a shit. 16:52 VanessaE we need to re-instate the auto-range feature/ 16:52 Calinou why? 16:52 Calinou Minecraft uses static view range, works well :P 16:53 VanessaE because it sucks having to flick from 30m in one area to 150 in another 16:53 VanessaE especially if you're hopping between servers and/or switching clients a lot 16:59 celeron55 does there exist feedback about this from other users? i haven't looked 16:59 VanessaE celeron55: not directly, but I have seen a few vague complaints that peoples' FPS is unreasonably low, with the advice being to adjust the view range. 17:00 celeron55 if it is a common complaint, then i guess just put it back 17:00 VanessaE (recently that is, post-static-range) 17:00 VanessaE I don't think you could "just put it back" though, wasn't it pretty widely accepted among core devs that the previous implementation was unacceptable? 17:20 paramat Vanessa, remember that many people rightly complained about auto view range, including yourself. having to manually adjust something is not a problem, except one of laziness. auto doesn't work, so it has to be manual. i find it a huge improvement 17:21 paramat Fixer hmmmmm says he will implement 'get biome at point' 17:21 VanessaE paramat: indeed I did. but I believe I also expressed distaste for the idea of removing it altogether. 17:21 everamzah view_range, then view_range_extended, then bind a toggle key. additionally, uncache fov, make fov_extended, optionally map to view_range extension = zoom 17:22 VanessaE it does NOT have to be manual. it has to be automatic because manual ranging sucks when you're actually playing the game. 17:22 VanessaE 30 here, 45 there, 150 in this other area, shit I just turned around and need to drop it back to 50... 17:22 VanessaE this is how it actually is in a production environment. 17:22 everamzah i do find myself hitting +/- a lot 17:23 everamzah better to drop view_range than to drop frames, imo 17:23 VanessaE exactly. 17:24 paramat a toggle between 2 values could be good though 17:24 VanessaE no, useless. 17:24 VanessaE it needs to be continuously variable. 17:24 sofar doesn't the engine drop blocks that are behind the player aggressively? 17:25 VanessaE sofar: not so agressively that you won't find yourself turning around and seeing too much detail for the current view ranghe 17:29 VanessaE paramat: I recall there being a suggestion that the view range auto-tuner should try, when the player turns, to predict what the range needs to be ahead of time (and err on the side of short range so as not to let the view ever get choppy) 17:30 paramat auto either adjusted too fast or too slow, nothing seemed to work, many players disabled it through settings, i did for over a year. manual adjustment may be a little irritating but it's an improvement. if in a heavy-load area keep it low most of the time 17:30 paramat well that's even more complex and will have it's own problems 17:30 VanessaE if "nothing seemed to work", then the auto-tuner needed rewriting entirely, rather than being disabled. 17:31 VanessaE it's not just "a little irritating", it's "this game sucks, I have to keep hitting this stupid key every 5 seconds" 17:31 VanessaE not that I think that way, but that's what the users are doubtlessly thinking 17:31 VanessaE I mean, that's practically Rule 0. do not irritate your userbase. 17:32 everamzah where is that written? i only know about 'comes without warranty, use at your own risk' 17:32 VanessaE everamzah: um, common courtesy? :) 17:34 paramat too bad, i find myself hitting WASD often too, that sucks, it should be automatic ;) 17:35 VanessaE um... 17:35 VanessaE non-sequitur. 17:35 paramat that's also imagining what players think 17:35 * VanessaE sighs 17:37 VanessaE players know the difference between controls you should need, and extra controls you don't need. besides, tablets don't have +/- keys for them to hit. 17:37 paramat yeah i was being sarcastic 17:37 VanessaE sorry, sarcasm isn't really wanted here. I'm being completely serious. 17:38 paramat we don't care much about touchscreen devices, we're almost dropping android. anyway +/- can be added for touchscreen 17:39 paramat auto range was removed for farmap also 17:39 VanessaE playing the game and having to fuck with the +/- keys so often is like driving your car and having to reach for the radio volume control repeatedly during a song - you're already busy with something important, you shouldn't have to take your eyes off of it. in the case of car radios, they fixed that issue with automatic velocity-sensitive volume control and the "Loud" (audio range compression) setting. 17:40 VanessaE farmap doesn't even exist... 17:40 paramat it's also like driving with manual transmission, which we europeans do fine 17:40 VanessaE and we DO care about touchscreen devices. 17:40 VanessaE 80% of my userbase uses tablets/phones. 17:41 VanessaE you don't have to take your eyes off of what you're doing to shift gears..... 17:41 VanessaE (and I am quite aware of how to drive a 'stick' as we call it here) 17:41 celeron55 VanessaE: well the previous implementation was made by me for my super-slow laptop 17:41 celeron55 so it should work 17:41 VanessaE celeron55: you mean the old old implementation that took a long time to auto-adjust? 17:42 celeron55 the one that existed until it didn't 17:42 VanessaE (not trying to disparage, btw) 17:42 VanessaE ok. 17:42 celeron55 i don't even know when this change was done 17:42 est31 early this year i think 17:42 VanessaE celeron55: I don't remember, somewhere just after 0.4.13 went out I think 17:42 est31 during RBA's last period of activity 17:43 Fixer i disliked autorange: it has 1) look back problem 2) fluctuating field of view when going forward making stuff blink 17:43 Fixer better fix pr #3770 that can improve performance a lot 17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3770 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by ShadowNinja 17:47 VanessaE if you don't like auto-range, turn it off. 17:47 VanessaE but for those of us who liked it, there's no way to "turn it back on". 17:48 paramat we did, permanently :) 17:48 VanessaE hence removing the feature was a bad idea. 17:48 paramat with huge support 17:48 VanessaE "huge support" being what, three people? 17:48 VanessaE I'm sorry. it was a mistake and it needs to be corrected. 17:49 VanessaE paramat: you don't play on any servers, do you? 17:49 T4im preferring fps drop to range drop having huge support? O_o 17:49 VanessaE T4im: exactly. 17:49 VanessaE feature disabled for all with no way to turn it back on? FAIL. 17:49 paramat you complained just as hard about auto range 17:50 VanessaE paramat: I complained specifically about its tendency to be wrong about the needed view distance. 17:50 VanessaE not the fact that it existed. 17:51 paramat on a server people will learn to keep range low in some areas, then it doesn't bounce around 17:51 VanessaE it tended to err on the side of too much range, mainly because it seemed not to take some things into account when calculating it, like how shaders can slow down FPS. 17:51 VanessaE *sigh* you never experience the variation of open terrain versus built-up cities. 17:52 paramat it's only a problem if a player raises range too high 17:52 VanessaE the default is 100, which is too high for a city and too low for open terrain. 17:52 VanessaE and you didn't answer my question. 17:53 VanessaE do you, or don't you play regularly on public servers? 17:53 paramat i rarely play on servers 17:53 VanessaE I believe you've just made my case for me :) 17:53 paramat the default is meaningless, players find their own value 17:54 VanessaE most of my users *can't* find their own value 17:54 VanessaE there's no value to find. 17:54 paramat i understand the issues 17:54 VanessaE but you're not willing to entertain a proper solution. 17:55 VanessaE what good is it to understand then? 17:55 VanessaE sorry to sound bitter.. 17:55 paramat they need to set it low enough for city and keep it there when around cities, not difficult 17:55 VanessaE *sigh* 17:55 VanessaE it's far more difficult than you think. 17:56 T4im you assume, they know how to change it 17:56 T4im consider that on many servers you spawn first time in densely settled/built areas, which means the default is usually not low enough for new players: they join, don't know about +/- yet, and just get fps drops and leave minetest entirely 17:56 paramat manual adjustment is not much of a problem, it's a relief to choose the right level, and those keys are easily used without looking 17:56 VanessaE paramat: then re-institute auto-range and keep it locked to something you like. 17:56 VanessaE don't spoil it for the rest of us. 17:57 VanessaE T4im: exactly. 17:57 paramat no loss if stupid players leave 17:57 T4im not stupid players, players new to the game 17:57 VanessaE are they stupid? or are they uneducated-about-minetest? 17:57 VanessaE should they also leave if they can't figure out that T, / or F10 brings down the chat console? 17:57 T4im or maybe uneducated *and* stupid players :D 17:59 paramat anyway if a good auto can be found it could be an option sure 18:02 Calinou if Minetest can't handle view range 100 on today's low-end hardware, or yesterday's mid-end hardware, there definitely is a problem. 18:02 Calinou Minecraft could handle view range over 200 with the same hardware 18:02 paramat +/- should certainly be presented clearly as an essential control known from the start 18:03 paramat well the load is due to built-up areas 18:03 paramat with lots of nodeboxes etc 18:07 Fixer_ 1) PR #3770 or 2) disable shaders by default after all 18:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3770 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by ShadowNinja 18:07 Fixer_ disabling shaders greatly improves performance 18:18 Fixer_ without shaders can achieve reasonable fps in cities with vrange 160 18:18 Fixer_ on hd6870 18:18 paramat shaders should be disabled by default yes 18:19 paramat i'm surprised they're not 18:20 paramat i guess you mean the basic nodes shader, with no options enabled 18:21 Calinou right now, you get the same look of the same with and without shaders for most things 18:21 Calinou ...save for water in caves that can flicker, IIRC 18:27 paramat as far as i understand the basic shader just adjusts day/night/artificial colours and brightness 18:30 Fixer_ disabling them doubles my vrange, roughly 18:31 Fixer_ Calinou: water flicker (in squares) was fixed, but some flickering of torches underwater or other parts of water still appears 18:31 paramat that might be translucecy issues? 18:39 paramat closed game#1195 18:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1195 -- Sapling height check before growth by tenplus1 18:54 Fixer_ paramat: " basic shader just adjusts day/night/artificial colours and brightness" yes, but more I think about this I think the price is too high... 18:56 paramat so you think disable by default? 18:58 Fixer_ yes, let me look fps penalty 18:58 Fixer_ I remember it was quite big 18:59 paramat perhaps open a PR for this for more discussion? 18:59 paramat i +1 this 19:00 Fixer_ paramat: i even created forum topic long ago: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13763 19:02 Fixer_ paramat: you loose 30-35% of fps with just basic shader enabled 19:03 Fixer_ with literally the same picture 19:03 Fixer_ except for transition of night and day 19:03 Fixer_ I will check the difference on new version with vbo 19:04 paramat ok i think let's do it. many new players complain of low FPS and we end up advising shaders be disabled 19:05 paramat if you make a PR i'll +1 19:05 Fixer_ i can create issue fast, but not pr, even for one line i will need to study manuals and it will take ages 19:05 Fixer_ let me play without shaders a bit 19:05 Fixer_ too study possible problems 19:07 Fixer_ tested one scene on actual server, my last standing position: 38 fps (default shader setting) vs 63 fps (shaders off), default config 19:08 Fixer_ pic of scene: https://i.imgur.com/bEuAVVx.png 19:09 VanessaE Fixer_: you want an acid test, go to my Creative server (30000) and look north from the spawn. 19:09 Fixer_ VanessaE: can do that 19:09 VanessaE You will have a very hard time exceeding 30 fps there, even at very short view ranges 19:10 Fixer_ VanessaE: does it have technic or mesecons? 19:10 VanessaE it does. 19:10 paramat ok issue is fine 19:11 VanessaE but bear in mind that nearly all mods that used "tons of nodeboxes" as paramat described before, have long since been updated to use meshes 19:12 Fixer_ rendering difference: https://i.imgur.com/bEuAVVx.png (shaders off), https://i.imgur.com/lw7FAzA.png (basic shader on, default) 19:13 Fixer_ shaders "on" version has slightly brighter shadows 19:14 Fixer_ VanessaE: i will go to your spawn 19:15 VanessaE I noticed the slight difference in brightness. 19:15 Fixer_ yes 19:15 Fixer_ need to compare in dark areas too 19:15 VanessaE heh, RBA would shit a brick if he were still alive, talking about disabling shaders by default 19:16 Fixer_ VanessaE: yeas, because I talked to him about this iirc 19:16 Fixer_ VanessaE: but fps price can be too high 19:16 VanessaE yeah. 19:16 Fixer_ 38 vs 63 in just this scene is a big difference 19:17 VanessaE that's been my experience as well. something like 15% difference in FPS. 19:17 VanessaE and that's with a very fast video card. 19:17 Fixer_ in this scene it is 40% diff 19:19 paramat nore sfan5 sofar Tesseract do you agree nyancat texture names should be corrected? game#1201 19:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1201 -- Nyancat textures incorrectly named 19:20 VanessaE paramat: don't change the texture names. 19:24 VanessaE this is change for the sake of change. don't mess with it. naming textures according to their mods is not a rule. it's a strongly-encouraged guideline. 19:26 Fixer_ VanessaE: still pretty big difference in fps 19:27 Fixer_ default settings: https://i.imgur.com/pJgmKZV.png, shaders off: https://i.imgur.com/09YIbb7.png 19:28 Fixer_ up to 50% fps down 19:29 Fixer_ VanessaE: i rarely exceeded 30 fps with shaders off btw, ati hd6870 19:29 Fixer_ VanessaE: smth strange with fog, compare two screenshots 19:29 VanessaE toldya. 19:29 paramat dev activity attracting attention is a ridiculous argument, there's already been much discussion and PRs, might as well just do it quickly with no further discussion then. this is also lazy, changing names is quick and texture packs already need regular updating. retaining names for a minor saving of effort will result in a mess later 19:30 VanessaE paramat: while the style varies from one server to another, that ^^^^ is about what most of my servers look like around their spawn areas. 19:31 paramat i know 19:31 VanessaE paramat: suit yourself. 19:33 VanessaE it won't take me more than a few mins to rename the textures in my packs, I just ...don't think it's a smart move. 19:33 VanessaE nor was moving the nyan to its own mod. 19:33 VanessaE is/was 19:34 paramat shaders off looks fine to me, no worse 19:35 paramat i'll open a PR 19:35 VanessaE the copyright/attracting attention argument is precisely why the images are as they are now - I redrew them in my own, similar style, from scratch, with different colors, just enough to help keep MT off of the original author's radar. 19:35 VanessaE (meanwhile in HDX, they're derived from actual Pop Tarts and a photo of a cat I used to have) 19:37 sofar meow 19:39 VanessaE woof. 19:40 paramat cool good move 19:40 paramat #4315 should be closed, opinions? 19:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4315 -- Prevent falling nodes from getting stuck by tenplus1 19:42 Fixer_ I'm embaraced 19:42 VanessaE ? 19:42 Krock close until there might be a better fix come 19:42 Fixer_ from PR standpoint 19:42 Fixer_ public relations 19:43 Fixer_ you can word it differently 19:43 Fixer_ by disabling shaders performance increased by 100% 19:43 Fixer_ or 19:43 Fixer_ after enabling shaders performance decreased by 50% 19:44 Fixer_ i like first one :) 19:46 paramat heh 19:47 VanessaE I'd say that it's about 50% faster for me without shaders, now. 19:47 VanessaE not sure why the difference is so much more now than before, unless shaders interfere with VBO or something. 19:56 Fixer_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4335 20:11 hmmmmmm vanessae: realbadangel's normal mapping changes 20:11 hmmmmmm i hate to say it but switching to tangent vertexes really slow stuf down 20:12 hmmmmmm paramat: yeah that's on my list, i'm just bogged down by workie work right now 20:12 hmmmmmm plan on getting this done soon though 20:13 paramat cool 20:13 VanessaE hmmmmmm: I guess that explains it. 20:13 VanessaE RBA's work was always good, but usually half-finished :-/ 20:14 Fixer_ paramat: water is blinking in both modes, so it is non issue to disable shaders at least in this regard 20:14 paramat tangent vertices are only used when normalmaps are enabled 20:14 hmmmmmm really? i thought for some technical reason or another they were used when shaders were enabled 20:14 hmmmmmm at one point they were always enabled 20:14 paramat oh erm .. 20:14 Fixer_ i remember RBA did something to make them enabled when only certain options were used 20:15 hmmmmmm maybe 20:15 hmmmmmm idk 20:15 hmmmmmm i haevn't been keeping up 20:15 Fixer_ i remember this because i helped test it 20:15 paramat need to check the PR 20:15 Fixer_ there was big slowness bug that day 20:15 Fixer_ slow block rendering, and he fixed 20:15 hmmmmmm i think that was something different 20:15 Fixer_ and paramat ranted about tangent thing near that days 20:16 hmmmmmm like i think est told him to add reserve() calls to the vertex vectors 20:16 hmmmmmm and they made things unbearably slow 20:16 hmmmmmm so then he switched it back 20:16 hmmmmmm shrug 20:16 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/bf884e37a06e0a8dd6c31789a69921f07ec5a9a9 20:17 hmmmmmm this proves my point 20:17 hmmmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/bf884e37a06e0a8dd6c31789a69921f07ec5a9a9#diff-c2f90db5de8c33a259c27113939c63c5R1243 20:17 Fixer_ yeah, this one 20:22 paramat my issue was https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3530 20:23 hmmmmmm yup 20:23 Fixer_ that water blinking drives me crazy, and I love building underwater tunnels 20:23 hmmmmmm that was the huge regression i noticed when i came back to minetest after taking a break for a while 20:23 hmmmmmm and i got real upset about it 20:24 hmmmmmm like wtf every time i take a break and come back there's like 10 things broken and at least one huge performance regression that's near impossible to track down 20:25 paramat thing is, is tangent space really needed for basic nodes shader? i doubt it 20:25 hmmmmmm it's really hard to decouple now 20:26 hmmmmmm the old code used to calculate tangents from a big set of if statements 20:26 hmmmmmm now i think it actually calculates it using the mathy calculating way 20:27 hmmmmmm you need to basically revert part of his normal mapping commit 20:28 paramat mtgame no longer uses normalmaps but custom texture packs and subgames do 20:28 hmmmmmm i'm sure we can fix it, it just takes some effort 20:28 hmmmmmm everybody's busy though :/ 20:30 Fixer_ anybody cares about this underwater-glass-whatver blinking mess? https://i.imgur.com/LrLlnsa.gif 20:31 Krock it's a shooting 20:33 sofar is that a US-based server? 20:34 paramat that's the inherent translucency issue surely? #95 20:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/95 -- Seeing more lava through see-through lava (no translucency depth-sorting) 20:34 paramat because water is translucent? 20:34 Fixer_ sofar: it is, why asking? 20:35 paramat heh 20:35 hmmmmmm hahaha 20:35 Fixer_ gif itself blinks funny, but it is not funny at all 20:35 hmmmmmm there must've been black ppl in that other room 20:35 Fixer_ i build that underwater tunnels 20:35 * hmmmmmm hides 20:35 Fixer_ and for what? 20:36 Fixer_ every time i increase fps or vrange, some shit creaps in 20:36 Fixer_ like blinking 20:36 Fixer_ torch blinking in water, doors whatever 20:37 Fixer_ paramat: it is some kind of translucency problem? 20:38 paramat translucent lives matter! 20:41 paramat well issue 95 occurs when viewing translucency through other translucency, so i guess viewing seperate volumes of water triggers it. but not sure why it blinks 20:50 Fixer_ but glass is not translucent, it is transperent? 20:51 Fixer_ water is transperent or translucent? 20:51 T4im transparent, but that's what he meant 20:52 hmmmmmm we define translucent as a material with an opacity of less than 255 but greater than 0 20:52 hmmmmmm a pixel with an alpha of 0 is considered transparent 20:53 hmmmmmm or, if the color matches the color key when blitted with color key transparency 20:55 T4im so an opaque node with sunlight_propagates = true isn't translucent for you? ;) 20:55 T4im slabs and such 20:56 hmmmmmm we're talking in the context of material rendering 20:56 T4im ah, ok 20:56 hmmmmmm because that's what actually matters here 21:35 paramat i was referring to water when i said translucent 21:38 sofar "translucent" and "lets light through below nodes" are not the same thing in minetest 21:52 paramat will merge soon game#1206 21:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1206 -- Default/trees: Update to 'get_mapgen_setting()' by paramat 22:39 paramat merging games 1198 1200 1206 1207 22:54 paramat done