Time Nick Message 03:17 paramat #4135 tested and seems good +1 03:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4135 -- Biomegen by kwolekr 03:21 paramat hmmmmm would like more reviewers for that though 03:21 est31 I've looked at the commits 03:21 est31 and they make sense 03:21 est31 but it was no detailed review at all 03:22 hmmmmm i think a line-by-line review may take too much time 03:22 hmmmmm much of it is moving large functions from file to file and aren't really that risky 03:24 hmmmmm the things that i'm most nervous about are causing memory leaks, double frees, shadowing class variables on accident, etc. things like that 03:24 est31 I've seen you shadow read on accident 03:25 hmmmmm then make a comment on the PR! 03:26 est31 was no issue for me 03:26 hmmmmm ?? 03:26 est31 if you want to call read() you will get a compiler error 03:26 hmmmmm ohh you mean the identifier 'read' 03:26 est31 thats what c/c++ has a static type system for 03:27 est31 unlike javascript 03:27 est31 or lua 03:27 hmmmmm erm, this isn't in the PR though if it did happen 03:28 hmmmmm in any case I still like to make sure every identifier is unique, regardless of how clear scoping rules may seem 03:29 est31 hrmm might have been another identifier 03:37 est31 agh irrlicht joystick support is FUBAR 03:37 est31 well i can live with it 03:37 est31 most of irrlicht is FUBAR anyway 03:51 paramat i'll fly through mgv7 again to check memory use 03:57 hmmmmm i'd be more concerned about memory usage from starting a game and then quitting to the main menu repeatedly, but there's nothing that is large enough to make a noticable difference 03:57 hmmmmm sorry 03:58 paramat i see 03:59 paramat good, one less thing to do 04:36 est31 setting the camera already works with the joystick 04:36 est31 now I have to add movement 04:37 est31 and think of a good design around this stuff 04:37 est31 but I already have ideas 05:17 est31 hmmmmm, one of the things I am wondering about: when I write .0 05:17 est31 is that really a double? 05:18 est31 I only know how it is for haskell, it gets stored as some "floatLiteral" type 05:18 est31 and then gets automatically made a float or double depending on what type there is 05:18 sofar are you asking about c++ making it a float or double? 05:18 sofar or double vs. some integer? 05:18 est31 about c++ yes 05:18 est31 no float vs double 05:18 est31 if you say float f = .0; 05:19 est31 does it make a double .0 and then convert it to a float 05:19 est31 or does it make a float .0 05:19 sofar well constants aren't typed until they're used 05:19 sofar afaik 05:19 est31 thats what one of the commits by hmmmmm did 05:20 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4135/commits/e1435b2166d12165751e86962d7bd06ecaa25ca0 05:25 sofar 34bff278a03779b511a09f8b9676357f 05:25 sofar https://gist.github.com/sofar/34bff278a03779b511a09f8b9676357f 05:25 sofar shrug, sorry, still no clue :D 05:27 sofar actually, it seems that if it exceeds FLT_MAX, it's automatically a double then 05:36 est31 okay then 05:36 est31 just wondered about it 05:37 est31 in other news, I think I now also have implement movements with a gamepad 05:37 est31 I'm building atm 05:37 sofar cool 05:37 sofar I have a logitech controller, wonder if it would work 05:38 sofar http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/f710-wireless-gamepad 05:38 est31 you wanna try 05:39 est31 I'll upload it 05:39 sofar nah, looking at slab stuff right now 05:39 sofar later though 05:39 sofar my sheep are also getting lonely 05:41 est31 sofar, https://github.com/est31/minetest/tree/gamepad 05:41 est31 it is damn ugly code still 05:44 sofar not too big of a patch, though 05:50 hmmmmm hmm 05:51 hmmmmm actually now that I'm reading about it, it seems that what 5.f is interpreted as depends on the value of FLT_EVAL_METHOD 05:54 hmmmmm but yeah, in general 0.0 is double, 0.f is float, 0.l is long double 05:54 hmmmmm take a look at 6.4.4.2(4) 05:55 hmmmmm the reason why i change them is because the compiler isn't allowed to optimize it to a float because of the difference in precision causing (negligible for our purposes) differences 07:02 nore the more I try to rebase #1118, the more I realize that most of it is just moving a lot of stuff from CNodeDefManager to something that belongs more to ContentFeatures or MapNode (actually, to NodeWithDef) 07:02 sofar game#1111 07:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1118 -- Meta set nodedef by Ekdohibs 07:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1111 -- Big simplification of slabs combination by sofar 07:03 nore so I might try to get these changes in a separate PR 07:03 nore that doesn't add meta_set_nodedef, but that adds NodeWithDef 07:03 nore which is but (for now, will change in meta_set_nodedef) a MapNode and a pointer to a ContentFeatures 07:04 nore does it look good? 07:04 nore sofar: reading your game pr 07:06 sofar I think it's even simpler now 07:07 sofar it works as I intended as well, but, I'm tired lol 07:08 nore sofar: see my comment 07:08 nore something seems strange 07:09 nore btw, sofar: your connected nodeboxes make rebasing meta_set_nodedef a pain :p 07:10 sofar sure, yes, it touched a lot of code 07:11 nore yup 07:11 nore anyway, going back to that 07:11 nore (what's your opinion on making a PR with NodeWithDef btw?) 07:12 sofar tbh, I have not looked into that yet, I've been so busy 07:13 nore there's only what I just said anyway 07:13 nore (btw, weren't you supposed to not have time for a week?) 07:14 sofar everyone is in bed, I'm indulging in a little brain candy 07:16 est31 My main problem about that PR (1118) is that it is so totally wasteful 07:16 nrzkt sofar: can look at last #4155 commit and tell me if the scheme is good for you 07:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4155 -- Implement player attribute backend by nerzhul 07:16 est31 meta shouldnt be used 07:16 est31 rather use param 1 or 2 for it 07:16 est31 and if there is really need for more data, meta can be used 07:16 est31 but param 1 and 2 should be the first choice 07:16 nore est31: it is 07:17 nore I suggested that a while back 07:17 nore but anyway, my objective right now is making it possible 07:17 sofar nrzkt: I'm assuming that "attributes" can be arbitrary things like json tables, etc. 07:17 nore (both of them) 07:17 nrzkt because it's text, there is no limitation 07:17 sofar nrzkt: but in principle I'm a fan of the DB conversion 07:18 nrzkt you can put all you book into it in a yaml, json etc :p 07:18 nrzkt or your Lua functions if you want 07:18 nore est31: actually about half this PR is a cleanup 07:18 sofar well, I just want to make sure it's safe :) 07:19 nore moving functions from CNodeDefManager to MapNode, etc 07:19 sofar nrzkt: so, just keep trucking ahead, looking forward to the sqlite3 code since that will allow me to test 07:19 nrzkt sofar: yes, i will do it for the second step, i just need some time to backport it from my fork 07:20 est31 yes I like it 07:20 nore est31: so what I want to do right now is to get that cleanup 07:21 est31 nrzkt, about your pr, i like the database layout 07:21 est31 nore, well if its only a cleanup then its good 07:21 nore and merge it, so that meta_set_nodedef will be easier in the future 07:21 nore est31: well, what I want to add too is a NodeWithDef struct 07:21 hmmmmm i have a question 07:21 nore which is but a MapNode and a pointer to ContentFeatures 07:21 est31 the question of course is whether it is a cleanup or something else called a cleanup 07:21 nrzkt est31: did you look at the last commit i did 1 hour ago ? 07:21 hmmmmm why are player attributes needed in the core 07:22 hmmmmm this is something a mod can do 07:22 nore which avoid moving GameDef's around all the time 07:23 est31 hmmmmm, well in the future we can manage player inventories over it 07:23 nore hmmmmm: and player stats (hp for example) 07:24 est31 exposing it to mods is just added flexibility 07:24 nrzkt a common interface for all mods with a good interface for external tools 07:29 nore est31: the objective is to be able to do what is done in this file: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1118/files#diff-18513665750ef5adf42b5ec29e14162eL304 07:30 sofar nrzkt: first user will be converting bed spawns :) 07:31 paramat game#1110 07:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1110 -- Default: Bookshelf has 2 openings instead of 4 by paramat 07:31 sofar nrzkt: and /home positions 07:31 nrzkt sofar: trivial then :p 07:31 nrzkt but how did you provide a migration mode for this? 07:31 sofar only read old storage files at startup 07:32 nrzkt seems lgtm 07:32 sofar then uhm... mark them obsolete 07:32 sofar well, if player attribute bed_pos is set, don't read from old file 07:32 sofar should be doable without much trouble 07:32 est31 nore, well that change is okay 07:33 * sofar goes to bed 07:33 est31 if you separate it out it can be added 07:33 est31 (IMO) 07:33 est31 hmmmmm, theoretically mods could do it themselves 07:34 est31 think of /home positions as example 07:34 est31 now you can create a file home_pos.dat 07:34 est31 and manage it via a lua table which maps the player name to the home position 07:35 est31 you load it using minetest.deserialize and store it using minetest.serialize 07:35 est31 now, when to store it? 07:35 est31 of course, at shutdown 07:35 est31 but what if nothing has changed? 07:35 est31 and if you have, say thousands of players 07:35 est31 then it does all the saving without any reason 07:36 est31 next thing: you want to be resilient against sudden crashes 07:36 est31 usually you make the save code with a minetest.register_on_shutdown 07:36 nore est31: you want to store at the same time as the server saves the map... 07:36 est31 but ofc when a crash happens that isnt called 07:36 est31 then you have to add some timers to save the table regularly 07:36 nore (should we add a minetest.register_on_save callback btw?) 07:37 est31 so what you end up with is that you write the whole table each couple of seconds 07:37 nrzkt nore: saving players with map mean saving all players without verifying they have been modified, it could be huge 07:37 est31 and again, if you have lots of players, the table can be very long 07:38 nore nrzkt: of course, this should be done by the core with a db backend that doesn't save what hasn't been modifies 07:38 nore -s°d 07:38 nore -°++ 07:38 est31 nore, you mean with register_on_save that you pass it a function that has no params, right? 07:38 * nore tries to type too fast 07:38 nore est31: yep 07:38 est31 nore, well I dont think there is any advantage in that 07:38 nore so that mods that have data in memory (let's say, for speed) can write it back 07:39 nore example: I have a mod that wants to store information in some items' metadata 07:39 nore but that information is too big for that and causes huge network lags and client slowdowns 07:39 nore (8KiB metadata) 07:40 nore so, it stores them in memory 07:40 nore and then, writes it in a file 07:41 hmmmmm mods already do this 07:41 hmmmmm the reason why i am against it is quite simply because: 07:41 est31 I still dont see where register_on_save would help here 07:41 nore est31: well, the mod would store its data 07:41 hmmmmm - each mod knows how to optimally store its data in its own optimal format 07:41 nore at the same time as the server 07:41 nore so that there is no inconsistent state 07:41 hmmmmm - this adds even more bloat to the API 07:42 nore hmmmmm | - this adds even more bloat to the API <-- having 25 different mods doing that is even worse 07:42 hmmmmm so then add a function or two to builtin 07:43 nore hmmmmm | - each mod knows how to optimally store its data in its own optimal format <-- I have yet to see a mod that does something else than minetest.serialize 07:43 est31 yes 07:43 est31 +1 to that 07:43 est31 I sometimes feel the same as you 07:43 hmmmmm right no need to overengineer this kind of thing 07:43 est31 wondering "this adds so much bloat, we shouldnt have it" 07:43 est31 but here I think it is useful 07:43 hmmmmm way too much code to do something really simple 07:44 hmmmmm and here nerzhul wants to add it to a user-opaque database 07:44 hmmmmm jeez 07:44 est31 hmmmmm, the map has the same level of user opaqueness 07:44 est31 even worse 07:44 hmmmmm the map is the map though 07:44 nrzkt hmmmmm: database is less opaque than having thousands of files on the filesystem 07:45 nrzkt else, tell chrome and firefox stop using leveldb and sqlite to store their datas, it's too opaque 07:46 hmmmmm chrome and firefox have their own set of design criteria 07:46 hmmmmm i personally want minetest to follow the unix way of doing things 07:46 nrzkt and players are a special thing, like map, external tools wants to interact with it with a ocmmon interface not a shitty thousands of files with many mods 07:46 celeron55 my opinion these days is that sqlite isn't really very opaque, but other databases are 07:47 hmmmmm it's not opaque if you know what utilities to use 07:47 celeron55 the sqlite command line utility is rather ubiquitous 07:47 est31 server owners will find out what utilities to use 07:47 nrzkt okay, tell a new user to use files he didn't know vs SQL 07:47 hmmmmm i'm willing to bet that 90% of minetest players do not know how to view or edit a sqlite3 db 07:47 hmmmmm and even then they have to know SQL in order to do anything 07:47 nrzkt and tell users to find where mod store its data, and which mod store data ? 07:48 est31 hmmmmm, no not really 07:48 nrzkt it's just a pain, there are files everywhere 07:48 est31 there is sqlitebrowser 07:48 est31 I think that its name 07:48 nore hmmmmm: I can bet 90% of them don't know the format which mods use for their data 07:48 est31 its point and click 07:48 nrzkt sqlite3 07:48 est31 bit like excel 07:48 hmmmmm if you open up a text file it's immediately obvious 07:48 celeron55 files are of course more accessible though; i'm not going to pretend sqlite is better in that aspect than files 07:48 est31 you can set up sqlitebrowser to immediately open as well 07:48 nrzkt hmmmmm: okay, and if i want to see all my player datas with my 150 mods ? i should open many files with "proprietary" formats 07:49 hmmmmm so nrzkt's problem with this approach is that there are too many files 07:49 est31 in fact I think it does that if you install it on debian 07:49 hmmmmm i completely agree with this 07:49 hmmmmm having too many files is slow, messy, etc. 07:49 hmmmmm but the thing is, the only time you'd have this issue is on massive servers with 1000s of users 07:49 hmmmmm people who run their own servers are able to configure them for more optimal settings 07:49 nrzkt hmmmmm: and the second point is to permit websites to interact with game, with a safe way, and the safer way is to use the database backend because MT will not reload files. 07:50 Calinou there's DBeaver to administer databases, including SQLite ones 07:50 hmmmmm so if you make it optional then nobody loses here 07:50 hmmmmm the casual players are able to edit their player files no problem 07:50 hmmmmm you have all the opaqueness 07:50 est31 hmmmmm, what is the use case for that 07:51 celeron55 nrzkt: a database isn't going to magically solve the fact that minetest does not reload things at runtime 07:51 hmmmmm if you NEED to scale up though, and you NEED to administrate this from a web interface... then okay, I can see a server owner wanting those advanced features 07:51 est31 when do you as player want to edit your player file 07:51 hmmmmm est31: your itemstack for one? position? 07:51 hmmmmm a zillion different things 07:51 Calinou as for web interfaces, there's Adminer that can handle PostgreSQL 07:51 est31 except if it got messed up because the server crashed 07:51 nrzkt celeron55: not all the problems, but the concurrency problem, and it's a huge thing :) 07:51 Calinou (and also MySQL, and perhaps SQLite) 07:51 est31 hmmmmm, /teleport? 07:51 hmmmmm so like I said before 07:52 celeron55 nrzkt: concurrency... in what? 07:52 hmmmmm -1 for me if this isn't purely optional 07:52 est31 and about itemstacks, the whole game is about moving around items 07:52 nrzkt celeron55: if MT is writing the file and the website is write too... boom 07:52 Calinou ye, Adminer does SQLite 07:52 Calinou it can even do MS SQL ;) 07:52 est31 and if you want to edit the player file of *another* player then you are an admin 07:53 est31 They will adjust, we shouldnt think they are dumb 07:53 hmmmmm and FYI 07:53 hmmmmm you cited firefox as an example 07:53 est31 android exposes an sqlite library to its apps as well 07:53 celeron55 i would say that if there is a general sqlite utility on windows that is usable to a person that doesn't know SQL, we could use sqlite 07:53 hmmmmm firefox uses craptons of plain text configuration files 07:54 celeron55 i haven't searched for one 07:54 est31 http://sqlitebrowser.org/ 07:54 nrzkt celeron55: navicat is proprietary but works very well pg workbench, and sqlitebrowser 07:54 est31 Its "double click sqlite file -> select table -> edit the rows" kind of simple 07:54 celeron55 est31: that seems fine for this purpose 07:54 celeron55 this means at least i don't have anything against storing players in sqlite 07:55 nrzkt hmmmmm: plain text for configuration, SQLite for other datas (not configuration) 07:55 est31 and player data is not configuration 07:55 Calinou hey, that tool looks nice, est31 07:55 Calinou yes, indeed 07:55 nrzkt celeron55: we can help dusers by adding documentation on the wiki/website for that, it's not the problem 07:56 est31 what about using sqlite per default 07:56 celeron55 with tools like that, it might even make people edit things more than less than before 07:56 est31 and using pqsql if users want to configure it 07:56 Calinou isn't that already the case, est3? 07:56 Calinou and the case for most programs, like Quassel IRC 07:56 hmmmmm also without an option to read players from text configuration, you lose reverse compatibility unless you want to add extensive code to convert it to the new format 07:56 Calinou (default to SQLite, use PostgreSQL if desired) 07:56 nrzkt it's already the case est31, postgresql is for dedicated servers, not for client 07:56 hmmmmm just remember 07:57 est31 hmmmmm, reverse compat must be retained, I wont +1 any pr that does not provide it 07:57 hmmmmm if you want to take the choice of text player files out of the user's hands, you're pretty much lennart poettering 07:57 nrzkt hmmmmm: for the PR i'm working on there is no problem with this because i'm not changing the existing backend 07:57 est31 hmmmmm, its no log files 07:57 nrzkt but yes for other players datas we should read the player file before reading database to ensure the migration 07:57 est31 log files are *meant* to be read by the user 07:58 hmmmmm not just logfiles 07:58 nrzkt but it's not the purpose of the current PR, which is adding a common backend to raw player attributes 07:58 hmmmmm with init scripts or rc.d you can edit all these things with the most basic of tools already on everybody's system 07:59 hmmmmm not with these new fancy smancy locked-down binary format 07:59 est31 you can edit systemd config files as well 07:59 hmmmmm things 07:59 est31 its not even xml bs 07:59 hmmmmm yeah maybe you need a hex editor 07:59 hmmmmm pshh 07:59 hmmmmm so yeah 07:59 est31 do you even have used systemd once? 07:59 hmmmmm from my point of view, nerzhul wants to pull a systemd on us 07:59 nrzkt wtf 07:59 hmmmmm i don't want that to happen 08:00 hmmmmm est31, i'm pretty sure i used it when i installed debian in a VM recently 08:00 nrzkt debian does shit with systemd 08:00 nrzkt their integration was pure shit 08:00 nrzkt archlinux integration works better, having systemd + systemV like debian trigger OS level shit on services 08:00 celeron55 well, frankly, systemd works fine 08:01 nrzkt systemd is very very good, except when you have systemV with it 08:01 celeron55 (fedora here) 08:01 hmmmmm systemd is a probable u.s. government backdoor 08:01 nrzkt celeron55: fedora/redhat removed systemv ? 08:01 celeron55 hmmmmm: it's a backdoor for sure, but that isn't really a concern in MT 08:01 nrzkt hmmmmm: yes, like ipsec with openbsd, and the linux kernel, and openssl 08:01 hmmmmm there's no other reason why everybody would be so glad to have this bullshit shoehorned on nearly all distros at the same time 08:02 nrzkt hmmmmm: i think you should stop working for Dell, they are adding backdoors to hardware 08:02 Calinou systemd actually improved the GNU/Linux desktop IMO :-) 08:02 Calinou worked fine on Fedora, worked fine on Debian, works fine on Arch Linux 08:02 est31 +1 08:03 hmmmmm I can't hear you over in my RC.d directory 08:03 est31 I now have a cross distro tool to set up whether to start a service at boot 08:03 hmmmmm la la la la la 08:03 nrzkt and systemd is great for server owners, they add cgroup level integration on the unit, it's very good, private tmp dir, file system path secure 08:03 nrzkt hmmmmm: you are on a BSD 08:03 Calinou really, adding PostgreSQL or something isn't bloat 08:03 Calinou it just shouldn't be the default because of the involved setup 08:03 est31 no more update-rc.d.sh stuff 08:03 Calinou however, we might have a message on first server startup: "Warning: SQLite can be slow for large worlds. Consider using the PostgreSQL instead if possible." 08:03 nrzkt hmmmmm: and i agree the BSD rc.d is very very good, but the Linux SystemV init.d is just crazy and shit 08:03 Calinou est31: yeah, it standardized init systems, which is great, also the service files are quite easy to write 08:03 celeron55 Calinou: there's no need for that because migrations work fine 08:04 celeron55 nothing is lost if you start with sqlite and need to change later 08:04 Calinou yeah, but still 08:04 Calinou beginner server owners could be dellusioned with the performance 08:04 Calinou if they happen to have a large server 08:05 hmmmmm they gotta RTFM 08:05 est31 ^ 08:05 hmmmmm but the manual should tell them what options to enable and so on 08:06 nrzkt hmmmmm: one time you said users are stupid, and now you said they should be power users. 08:06 hmmmmm not, "oh by the way, you know those text files you used to just be able to edit?" 08:06 hmmmmm "well fuck you, you're gonna need to download a new application now" 08:06 est31 hmmmmm, no 08:06 est31 hmmmmm, on windows your text editors are all shit 08:06 hmmmmm nrkzt: I said power users should be power users 08:06 est31 there is no good text editor per default on windows 08:06 nrzkt est31: :( 08:06 est31 and sqlitebrowser is just as convenient to use 08:07 hmmmmm nrzkt: people who are actually concerned about performance or running a server are what i consider power users 08:07 hmmmmm running a large server* 08:07 hmmmmm in any case 08:07 est31 and who needs to edit the player files but power users 08:07 nrzkt est31: +1 08:07 hmmmmm I am a bit upset that nobody mentioned the ACID guarantee as a pro for sqlite 08:07 nrzkt (or server owner's cheaters :p) 08:08 est31 hmmmmm, I did indirectly 08:09 est31 or at least I think so 08:09 est31 but yeah the only time I had to edit a player file is because the server crashed and the player files were all corrupt 08:09 est31 so I had to fix them 08:10 hmmmmm i've edited it plenty of times to set position, restore HP, edit my items, etc. 08:10 hmmmmm i'm sure there are probably commands to do all those things but it's immediately obvious what settings do what in the text file 08:10 hmmmmm it's discoverable 08:11 hmmmmm as far as i'm concerned, the text files are part of the user interface. and an important part of a user interface is discoverability 08:11 nrzkt players.sqlite 08:11 nrzkt seems discoverable too :p 08:12 hmmmmm sure 08:12 hmmmmm i'm still -1ing your PR unless there's an option for text files, and the text files are the default 08:12 est31 well we could build an user interface if you insist 08:13 est31 the reason why there is none just yet is because its too easy to edit the files themselves 08:13 nrzkt hmmmmm: you can -1, but as it seems nore, est31, sofar and me are for it 08:14 Calinou come on, player files are a large performance bottleneck for any decently sized server :( 08:14 hmmmmm hey i'm not the one being stubborn here 08:15 hmmmmm there is a clear option to please everybody 08:15 est31 atm I think we are discussing about whether to use text files per default or the database 08:15 Calinou pleasing everyone is not always a good idea in software 08:15 Calinou sometimes, being opinionated makes you much more productive 08:16 est31 hmmmmm agrees to implementing a database backend that large server owners can enable, right? 08:16 Calinou it might be less viable in the long term though 08:16 hmmmmm absolutely, i think that's a great idea 08:16 hmmmmm just not necessarily the only way 08:16 Calinou to me, using text files by default feels like not enabling opcache in PHP :) 08:16 hmmmmm calinou, that attitude is what turned firefox into firefox 08:16 hmmmmm that's why gnome is shit 08:17 Calinou I'd say Chromium is more opinionated than Firefox, it's not as customizable 08:17 hmmmmm that's why all these big projects that were once fantastic went downhill so hard so fast 08:17 hmmmmm and chromium isn't as good... i don't like it 08:17 hmmmmm maybe it might be technically better in terms of JS execution performance 08:18 Calinou not all configuration options are "gratis" in terms of complexity to implement, also this doesn't save you from having sane defaults 08:18 Calinou (people judge software a lot based on the defaults) 08:18 Calinou (no wonder why Ubuntu is preferred on the desktop, rather than Debian) 08:18 est31 6 years ago you needed to install a plugin in order to play internet videos 08:18 est31 pls download windows media player plugin 08:18 est31 pls download silverlight 08:19 est31 pls download adobe flash 08:20 est31 now you just start the browser and it works without putting holes in the sandbox 08:20 est31 well, at least on most sites 08:21 nrzkt hmmmmm: gnome is very good if you are not a windows mouse user :p 08:22 * est31 wondes why this discussion hasn't yet met the godwin point yet 08:22 nrzkt atm at work there is an external resource which comes and he have an ubuntu shit where network doesn't work properly because of the stupid dnsmask idea 08:22 nrzkt i think hmmmmm wants to be the führer of the files 08:22 nrzkt est31: win :D 08:22 nrzkt files' Fürher, sorry :p 08:23 est31 hehe 08:23 * hmmmmm sits down on mein kamfy chair 14:19 Sokomine the trouble with too many player files existing and slowing down a server may not even be limited to particulary large servers. even smaller ones did easily get into the thousands, sometimes even approaching ten thousand users. never looked like that from ingame though. a vast majority of them might have been guest or other one-time-visitors 14:20 Sokomine resolving that problem by moving those files to a database could help a lot and spare the server admins from regulary having to clean up supposedly inactive players 14:36 nrzkt yes Sokomine, imagine DELETE FROM players WHERE last_connection > NOW() - 5 days; 14:36 nrzkt :) 14:36 nrzkt errr < 15:10 hmmmm i just don't want the player db move to be a verschlimmbesserung 15:20 nrzkt hmmmm: that's not the purpose, having clear tables no blob is required 15:20 nrzkt a real strong scheme 15:22 hmmmm that's not possible when the whole purpose of this feature is to store arbitrary metadata though 15:25 est31 nrzkt, NO thats a bad way to do it 15:25 est31 that's how I lost logins two times already 15:25 est31 server owners cleaned up player files based on last connection 15:26 est31 then somebody registered with my name 15:26 est31 and got access to all my protection blocks and griefed my houses 15:26 est31 AND THAT HAS HAPPENED TWICE already 15:27 est31 both times the server owner gave me back access 15:27 est31 we should have some further thing 15:27 est31 like num_connected 15:27 est31 increased every time the user connects 15:27 rubenwardy Or delete player profile, but not auth details 15:28 est31 then one can do DELETE FROM players WHERE (last_connection > NOW() - 5 days) AND (num_connected < 50); 15:32 est31 rubenwardy, thats an idea too 15:40 est31 perhaps there should be a bool flag 15:41 est31 is_minetest_dev_you_should_not_piss_off 15:41 est31 if its set the player is never deleted xD 15:53 Fixer admins periodically delete player data, thats very annoying 16:01 hmmmm that's a horrible justification for SQL 16:01 hmmmm you can get the same exact result using crontab and a shell script 16:02 est31 writing shell scripts to delete old players is more complicated than the SQL statement 16:04 * est31 is having fun flying around minetest with his gamepad 16:04 est31 flying around is more fun than coding 16:04 est31 thats not good, gamepad support should be finished 16:05 est31 maybe tomorrow 16:09 est31 maybe then 16:17 Sokomine est31: yes, that's a serious problem on servers. time since last login just doesn't work. a better indicator might be if the player actually protected anything. sadly, figuring that out depends on the mod used for protection 16:40 sofar at a certain point we should add OAUTH 17:36 halt_ hi 17:37 halt_ question: is it possible to set up a system of servers that you can tp through w/o exiting one and joining the other by hand? 17:38 halt_ hi krock 17:38 Krock hi halt_ 17:38 halt_ hi krocko/ 17:38 halt_ oops :P 17:38 halt_ o/ 17:39 halt_ you ghot a clue on: 17:39 halt_ is it possible to set up a system of servers that you can tp through w/o exiting one and joining the other by hand? 17:39 Krock halt_, is it fine for you when I use you to save some power? Sending HLT command the the CPU when it's not used 17:39 halt_ i guess...? 17:39 Krock nope, this goes outside the possibilities of the current Lua api 17:40 halt_ oh :/ would it b possible to configure the lua api to do that? 17:40 hmmmm lol. 17:40 halt_ im working on a TARDIS mod i wanted 2 do dat with 17:41 hmmmm your lawnmower can also dry clothes, it just needs to be configured the right way 17:41 halt_ if u took out da blades :P 17:42 Krock no, you need the blades to make wind 17:42 Krock just make sure you don't touch them when it's running 17:42 halt_ lol 17:43 halt_ anyhow anyone goty a clue how to tweak the api to do that? (not dry cloths but tp u between servers :P) 17:46 halt_ hi 17:48 halt_ hmm and would it b possible to make a "galaxy" in MT where all the planets have their own gravatational field? 17:51 halt_ rubenwardy Krock OldCoder_ VanessaE any of yall got an idea on either question? 17:51 rubenwardy #minetest is the better place for this 17:51 halt_ hmm kk 17:51 rubenwardy and don't ping people like that on IRC, it's bad etiquette 17:51 halt_ kk srry 17:52 * VanessaE hides 17:53 hmmmm "tweak" 17:53 hmmmm "configure" 17:53 VanessaE teleporting people between servers has been talked about before. I'm sure that'll be possible in the future. As for a "galaxy", that should be doable now, since gravity is one of the things you can override on-demand 17:53 hmmmm this guy doesn't get it 17:53 hmmmm the functionality does not exist 17:53 hmmmm if you want something, you need to code it 17:53 hmmmm nothing is free in life 17:54 hmmmm in any case this is something that could be added relatively easily with client side modding 17:56 halt_ so what would i do to go about modding this? 17:58 hmmmm the first thing you could do is read the minetest source code 17:58 hmmmm learn its architecture 17:58 hmmmm then understand why it's not simple at all 17:59 halt_ ik a bit about it but as i think u can tell... im not an experianced coder :/ 17:59 hmmmm sorry to say this but you don't really have a chance 18:00 halt_ ik :/ but im still trying 18:00 hmmmm but it would be a good experience to soak up as much as you can in an attempt to do it 18:01 hmmmm just read a lot, code a lot, gain experience and knowledge 18:03 halt_ hmm i dont understand how to do the coding part though :/ ive read alot of int.luas but nothing to do with this yet :/ cant find anything for it 18:05 hmmmm so you haven't modded at all yet? 18:07 rubenwardy halt_: http://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/ 18:07 rubenwardy 21:04 OldCoder Fixer, http://minetest.org/netfix-0.4.14.zip 21:04 OldCoder Others, it has been proposed that the RESEND RELIABLE patch be merged at this time 21:05 OldCoder The preceding link is the latest version of the patch, synced with git current 22:47 Megaf item transfer from one server to another? 22:47 Megaf extremely easy 22:47 Megaf but it has to be done outside minetest, it needs a companion app 22:47 Megaf or, IRC 22:48 Megaf the stuff could be encoded in base64 but a mod and sent over IRC 22:48 Megaf then decoded 22:48 Megaf or even easier, just use IRC mode to send modname:itemname amount player 22:48 Megaf or something 22:49 Megaf and the mod would use the server's IRC nick and send stuff via private messages of course 22:49 Megaf and it would likely have to be whitelisted on the other side 22:49 Megaf if that makes any sense 22:50 Megaf OldCoder, VanessaE Fixer celeron55 ^ 22:50 Megaf and halt_ 22:50 Fixer not a developer >_> 22:50 Megaf and hmmmm 22:50 OldCoder R 22:50 OldCoder Sure 22:50 OldCoder Could be handled through the IRC mods 22:51 OldCoder For which, BTW, I'd like support... est31's patch needs to be merged 22:51 OldCoder Support that merge, Megaf, and you get that feature 22:51 OldCoder Fair enough? 22:51 Megaf OldCoder, can you link me to the merge please? 22:52 Megaf I mean, is there a PR? 22:52 OldCoder I believe so, let me check. He and I will start one if he has not done so. 22:52 OldCoder Wait a couple of minutes, please 22:52 Megaf Ok, take your time. 22:53 OldCoder https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3859 22:53 OldCoder There you go 22:53 OldCoder Without this patch, if it is the right one, the life of a server admin is complicated 22:53 Megaf let me check that 22:53 OldCoder What right does upstream have to dictate the security polices that server owners wish to take? 22:54 OldCoder Megaf, context is that the IRC mods no longer work without this patch 22:56 Megaf nore, what's your github? 22:57 Megaf or what's is the nores github? 22:57 Megaf ekdohibs? 22:58 Megaf https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3859#issuecomment-221426924 22:58 Megaf OldCoder, ^ 22:58 OldCoder Hi 22:58 OldCoder R 22:59 Megaf by the way, I like the One approval lebel you implemented for voting, very clever. But I still like the :+1: 23:00 OldCoder Megaf, One Approval isn't mine, if you're talking to me... But thank you for the comment and I'll comment myself as well... 23:01 Megaf OldCoder, well, I do like the idea, so I commented on it 23:01 OldCoder If this goes through, I'll implement item transfer myself. May do so regardless, as my wording above suggests this. 23:01 Megaf I also think that IRC mod could be streamlined and maybe integrated into the core 23:01 OldCoder I'll add to the thread now myself... 23:01 OldCoder Yes, streamlined is essentially 23:01 Megaf it's a lightweight OpenSource protocol 23:01 OldCoder It's a headache to build it 23:01 Megaf so, why not? 23:02 OldCoder Well, there will be points raised, I'm sure. One step at a time. 23:02 Megaf just get rid of a couple of mapgens and legacy stuff like bitmap fonts and you can fit 10 or more IRC implementations into the core... 23:02 OldCoder Let's keep an eye on this. Remind me of my promise later. 23:02 * OldCoder is working on his own comment 23:02 Megaf sure (for one step at a time) 23:03 Megaf although I still defend my point that new features (as this one we are talking about, the authentication thingy) should not be implemented before streamlining/optimizing current code and removing bad/old/legacy/dead code from the core 23:06 OldCoder How do I +1 ? 23:06 OldCoder I'm about to comment; where is the approval button? 23:06 OldCoder Hm; and the preview tab doesn't work 23:07 Megaf OldCoder, type there :+1: 23:07 OldCoder In my post? 23:07 Megaf or just click the thumbs up in est first comment 23:07 Megaf yes, in your post 23:07 OldCoder What about preview tab? Should it work? 23:08 Megaf OldCoder, are you part of the dev team on github? 23:08 OldCoder No; so :+1: will not work? But what about preview tab? 23:08 Megaf OldCoder, so after your text just make a new line and type :+1: and comment 23:08 OldCoder What about preview tab? It does not do anything; should it? 23:09 Megaf I think it should, is your JavaScript active? 23:10 OldCoder Huh 23:10 OldCoder Comment button does nothing either... 23:10 OldCoder JS is on and popups are enabled... 23:11 OldCoder And now it shows 10 copies of my post O_O 23:11 Megaf I see 3 23:11 Megaf OldCoder, just click the "x" in the corner to delete your comment 23:11 OldCoder "Something went wrong with that request. Please try again." 23:11 OldCoder It says that when I delete 23:12 * OldCoder frowns 23:12 OldCoder Do you see just 1 copy now? 23:12 Megaf OldCoder, yep, things are fine now 23:12 OldCoder O.K. Thank you 23:12 Megaf You're welcome 23:12 OldCoder Remind me at a later point regarding the item transfer issue 23:13 Megaf ok 23:33 * Megaf waits for more people to wake up 23:33 Megaf and commend on #3859 23:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3859 -- Add minetest.check_password_entry callback by est31 23:33 sofar !tell est31 my joystick works, but I can't stop moving forward, and I can't dig/use 23:33 ShadowBot sofar: O.K. 23:34 Megaf sofar, I would't say that your joystick works then 23:34 sofar read the first 3 words of my sentence 23:38 Megaf "my joystick works" ? 23:38 OldCoder but