Time  Nick          Message
01:06 paramat       later i'll merge 3382 and 3413
01:24 thePalindrome :D
01:58 asl97         i can't think of a proper way to fix the movement anti cheat bug in server.cpp (#2356),  although i suppose i should just KISS and make player.cpp read the setting even though it might be pretty bad if the server fails to send the movement
02:16 paramat       now merging 3382 3413
02:29 paramat       merged
02:29 thePalindrome :D
03:51 paramat       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3418 'Mapgen: Add propagate_shadow bool to calcLighting' to enable terminating of problematic shadows in stacked realms (< hmmmm )
15:45 jomat         Huhm... minetest.auth_table[playerName].password is another hashing method than used for minetest.get_password_hash(playerName, password) ?
17:14 est31         jomat, yes the entries can vary.
17:14 est31         not neccessarily
17:14 est31         but if the password was created with a new client, the result is different
17:17 jomat         both, client and server 0.4.13 and the auth table was also created with this version
17:17 est31         yes, then you use the new auth system.
17:17 est31         the old one is still supported, so if you connect with a pre 0.4.13 client, everything works fine
17:17 est31         and you still can set password hashes of people with the old method
17:17 est31         it will automatically adapt.
17:18 jomat         Well, I'll have to file a bug report for https://github.com/ShadowNinja/minetest-irc_commands/blob/master/init.lua#L58 :-)
17:18 est31         yea, thats a bug in his code.
17:18 est31         but tbh hard to fix as well :)
17:19 est31         because its less a technical descision, more a policy descision
17:28 jomat         Well, as ShadowNinja is here anyways and this chat is public, and I don't have the necessary knowledge yet to create a PR on this issue, would you mind if I just copy-paste this part of the chatlog to the bug report, est31?
17:29 est31         no problem
17:29 jomat         thx
17:29 est31         kahrl_, nore sfan5 ShadowNinja PTAL https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/e5b7eb38ffeec86b7cad726ef173256a49acccf2
17:30 est31         pushing in 15 mins
17:32 est31         word change https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/89168a7ec8fe31715a4ca321a6e0ccb2d4972257
17:51 est31         pushed
18:08 Niebieski     Guys can you consider adding comments to the source code ? I think it will be beneficial.
18:11 sofar         Niebieski: is there a particular case that causes you to say that? there's plenty of comments in the source code already
18:19 Guest46780    @est31 i got no idea how to move the constructor from player.h to player.cpp and override behaviour of the superclass.
18:41 asl97         moved and rebased, it seem to work
21:45 Niebieski     sofar: I've seen an opensource project that has fairly detailed comments on the code.
21:46 sofar         Niebieski: I still don't get whether you have an issue with a particular file, are making a general remark or ... something else?
21:46 Niebieski     A general remark.
21:47 sofar         have you looked at the code?
21:47 Niebieski     Sure.
21:47 sofar         I find most of the minetest code I've looked at is adequately documented
21:47 sofar         (commented)
21:48 Niebieski     maybe because I'm not knowledgable enough to easily understand them.
21:48 sofar         there's such a thing as over-commenting
21:48 sofar         if you can't follow most of the code, then extra comments will not help
21:48 sofar         that's a hurdle indeed
21:49 sofar         but adding lots of comments doesn't make it more readable, so now you're making things worse
21:50 sofar         the comments that are needed are the "magic a-ha's" that need clarification
21:50 sofar         as far as I can see mintest c++ code is spot on with those
21:51 sofar         I doubt one could classify minetest as a project that is a great place to start learning how to code
21:52 Niebieski     Something like "#ifdef _MSC_VER"
21:53 Niebieski     I had to search about it to understand it's purpose.
21:55 Niebieski     This line is in main.cpp
21:55 Niebieski     Line # 20.
22:07 sofar         that's just to see if it's being compiled on msvcpp
22:07 Niebieski     Yeah, I didn't know that until I searched.
22:08 Niebieski     and this is the first line, so I gave up.
22:08 sofar         it's so common in portable code, it's unavoidable to have preprocessor stuff like that around
22:08 sofar         commenting on that would just be busy work
22:08 Niebieski     I sound like a whiner now.
22:08 sofar         well no
22:09 sofar         but I think you clearly understand now how much learning it will take to read code like minetest's code
22:09 sofar         do you know what a preprocessor is?
22:09 Niebieski     Yes.
22:10 sofar         can you compile and run a hello world in C++?
22:10 Niebieski     Yes.
22:10 sofar         well good, then you've made the first steps
22:11 Niebieski     I've built minetest a couple times.
22:11 sofar         well, that doesn't require you to know any C++
22:12 sofar         are you looking to do something specific with the minetest code?
22:12 Niebieski     Yeah.
22:13 Niebieski     I just wanted to contribute so I had to understand it first.
22:15 sofar         what's the largest program you've written code for in C/C++?
22:15 Niebieski     I can't remember but recently I've wrote a multithreaded program that adds two arrays.
22:17 sofar         so, I'm not a minetest developer, but I've written lots of C for many years, including having contributed 50k+ lines of code to the linux kernel
22:17 sofar         and I can't understand large portions of minetest code either at first sight
22:18 sofar         heck I've even written an opengl game in msvc++ with one other person in 1998-1999
22:18 sofar         can't ... remember.... a thing
22:19 Niebieski     I should call you sir then.
22:20 Niebieski     It's amazing that you contributed to the Linux kernel.
22:24 celeron55     minetest's code isn't perfect but a lack of comments is not really one of its problems
22:24 celeron55     you can't be commenting production code with comments like they do in newbie tutorials to programming
22:25 Niebieski     Yes I meant it to be 'noob friendly'.
22:25 celeron55     it would be unreadable to a competent programmer due to being flooded with comments
22:25 Niebieski     I'm not questioning it's quality.
22:27 Niebieski     Can we seperate the two versions. One that over-documented and the other isn't.
22:27 sofar         there's not just two versions
22:27 sofar         there are three
22:28 sofar         over commented
22:28 sofar         under commented
22:28 sofar         and reasonably well commented
22:28 sofar         I think, and celeron55 pretty much agrees, that minetest's code is reasonably well commented
22:29 sofar         and I'm saying that even though I don't understand large portions of it
22:29 sofar         because I know I'll just have to put more time into reading it carefully
22:29 Niebieski     What do you suggest to someone like me to understand Minetest's code or reach an equivalent level ?
22:30 sofar         yeah, that's an excellent question
22:30 celeron55     i would approve a system that would attach extra documentation to all of the code without adding it as comments within the code (doxygen could use them, and you could generate a verbosely commented version of the code if you want); but i doubt people would want to maintain it
22:30 sofar         I can't tell you want would work for you, I can tell you what has worked for me
22:31 sofar         celeron55: agreed. I've never seen that live long and thrive, anywhere, it's such a pain to keep up
22:34 celeron55     Niebieski: the way i read code of programs that i have never read before is that i just open some files that seem interesting to whatever i want to do and just start reading it, branching around everywhere until i think i understand enough things to be able to try out something; when it comes to things like _MSC_VER; you just put them in google
22:35 celeron55     but if you don't have a good prior grasp of big program structures, then that might not lead you to understand much
22:36 sofar         try making small modifications and tweaks
22:36 sofar         write a lua mod
22:36 celeron55     if you really want to understand minetest and nothing else, then you could start from https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_nmpr/tree/master/src
22:37 celeron55     the current codebase is still based on old versions like that one
22:37 celeron55     but that one is way smaller
22:38 celeron55     it's also much more consistent because it only has code written by me and not by other people; differing styles in the current codebase might be confusing
22:41 Niebieski     I don't have experience with similar big codebase.
22:42 sofar         it's rough
22:42 sofar         trust me I still get inundated
22:45 Niebieski     I tried the mods route but I had to learn lua from ground up.
22:46 sofar         yes, but most mods are relatively small, and they'll help you understand the underlying object model that minetest has
22:46 sofar         so it's a great way to understand how mechanically minetest works
22:46 Niebieski     Anyway, I'll consider C55's link, when I decied to get back to the code.
22:50 celeron55     reading these probably helps a bit too http://dev.minetest.net/Core_Architecture http://dev.minetest.net/Engine_structure
22:50 celeron55     these pages are not comprehensive but they attempt to clarify the overall structure
22:51 Niebieski     Yeah I have been refered to them alot.
22:53 celeron55     also, we now actually have this too: http://doxy.minetest.net/
22:54 celeron55     you can generate doxygen documentation with "make doc" locally too
22:54 celeron55     the result does not have much explanations but it's a useful way to browse things
22:56 celeron55     especially the collaboration diagrams are something unique to that way of browsing the codebase
22:57 celeron55     (unless you have a *very* fancy IDE)
22:58 Niebieski     I read the code directly from github.
23:02 Niebieski     I would love to stay on more, but I have to go now.
23:02 Niebieski     Thank you sofar and celeron55 for your time. I hope it didn't go to waste.