Time Nick Message 07:20 OldCoder 07:21 OldCoder Answer to probably uneducated question is requested: Formspec labels are not stored in the DB, right? Just the data is stored. If you change the labels in a mod, they should change regardless of contents of the DB. Is this so? 07:23 OldCoder Ah 07:23 OldCoder They *are* stored in the DB after all 09:53 neoascetic Hi everyone. Someone, please, show me the code where leaves removing occurs after tree digged? 09:53 nrzkt neoascetic, look at the ABM dedicated to it in lua 09:54 neoascetic I am unable to find it. For what should I search? 09:56 neoascetic As I understand this should be somewhere in minetest_game, since it minimum development game leaves are not removed 10:04 kilbith it's sad to see the git tree so dead these days :( 10:16 neoascetic Oh, found it, it is ABM for group:leafdecay... 13:20 paramat PilzAdam when you're around see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3402#issuecomment-160294849 15:33 est31 paramat, the bug you pointed out was only about a new bug, right? 15:33 est31 but basically the thing PilzAdam fixed in that PR is ok? 15:34 paramat correct :) 15:34 est31 soo... merge? 15:36 paramat hm possibly, i thought it might be better to add the extra fix to that PR, since it' sso closely related, less work for PA 15:36 est31 okay, lets wait a day then 15:37 est31 if he fixes it in the pr, we merge it before the day ends, if he doesnt fix it in the pr, we merge it once the day is over, and you make a new issue 15:38 paramat yes, if PA is busy then we can merge it to avoid conflicts 15:40 paramat i might merge this fairly trivial fix later https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3406 'Dungeongen: Also preserve river water nodes'. highlighting hmmmm just in case you want to look at it 15:43 paramat soon i might finally add the docs for biome definitions 17:42 VanessaE_ idea: give each user on a minetest server a unique key (something simple, an ssl hash or something) unique to them - not associated with username or password, and persistent across sessions. 17:42 VanessaE_ something that can be used by a mod to ban a single user in a multi-user household. 17:43 VanessaE_ (I presume the key would be generated and stored by the client and sent to the server along with regular login credentials) 17:54 Krock VanessaE_, by using the mac address or what? 17:54 VanessaE_ Krock: unique, random key 17:54 VanessaE_ once generated, it's stored and used forever (until deleted) 17:55 Krock but that cache could be cleared somehow 17:55 Krock because it'd be requierd to save it on the client side too 17:55 VanessaE_ yes, unless the key is stored somewhere that the user wouldn't want to delete 17:56 VanessaE_ I know some multiplayer games use a public/private key sort of setup like ssh 17:56 VanessaE_ but that's overkill 17:56 Krock it's always possible to take out a value of a file that's not compiled or encrypted in some way 17:56 VanessaE_ I know. 17:56 VanessaE_ I'm just saying it could be made "inconvenient" 17:56 Krock yup 18:00 DFeniks what if i play from multiple clients ? (not at the same time ofc.) 18:01 DFeniks how its different from banning username? 18:01 Krock system-wise path... 18:02 Krock it would be possible to a degree to ban a person 18:02 Krock not just an username 18:02 Krock s/wise/wide/ 18:02 DFeniks ^dual boot OS , windows linux 18:03 DFeniks i really play from both 18:05 DFeniks and how this would not ban other user from same house? nevermind i got it , you mean if they use different pc 18:05 VanessaE_ DFeniks: that's correct 18:06 VanessaE_ as for playing from multiple clients, well, the key in question would need to be stored somewhere separate from the client itself 18:06 VanessaE_ (e.g. user's home dir. ~/.local/minetest or something) 18:08 DFeniks as long as i still can have client in one folder , like compiled with run in place 18:08 VanessaE_ I mean separate from that, too 18:09 VanessaE_ pick some path 99.9% of linux installs will have (such as ~/.config or ~/.local) and use it 18:09 VanessaE_ let the client stay wherever 18:09 VanessaE_ as long as the key doesn't move around 18:12 est31 we could make it like minecraft and require money to sign up to public servers 18:12 DFeniks yeah i know like blender for example can be run from folder but settings are stored somewhere in home like ./blender (i dont really remember) 18:12 est31 this way we could get some money to run them :) 18:12 VanessaE_ est31: um, no. 18:12 est31 but otherwise I dont think such a key will be effective 18:12 est31 it will just lead to an arms race 18:12 VanessaE_ how so? 18:13 DFeniks isnt it easy to found and delete that folder thought? 18:13 est31 its basically security through obscurity 18:13 VanessaE_ well 18:13 est31 not good, concept wise 18:13 VanessaE_ what other way is there, then? 18:13 est31 ip address, like now. 18:13 VanessaE_ nope 18:13 VanessaE_ that doesn't address the concern I was talking about 18:14 est31 ah I see 18:14 est31 multi user household... 18:14 VanessaE_ yeah 18:14 VanessaE_ this is becoming a problem 18:14 est31 well, what about whitelisting usernames? 18:14 VanessaE_ wouldn't work on a public server. 18:15 est31 I mean you ban the ip, and if somebody complains that their ip got banned because their little sister did grief, then they can get whitelisted 18:15 est31 doable with our current mod system already. 18:15 VanessaE_ that could work 18:15 VanessaE_ I still think a per-user key would be better though 18:17 DFeniks that might work but maybe not against most dedicated offenders 18:17 VanessaE_ the idea is to make it reasonably cumbersome for one user to masquerade as another; more traditional methods like ban-by-ip, or dropping them at the firewall, can be used for people who know how to get around that. 18:23 rubenwardy est32, VanessaE_: most people I ban are just immature kids that know little about computers. They just try a different user name each day, until their ip changes and they get in 18:23 rubenwardy well 18:23 VanessaE_ exactly my point 18:23 rubenwardy from their interactions I guess they are 18:24 VanessaE_ ban by IP is not sufficient in any case. 18:24 VanessaE_ /xban is better than /ban but even THAT isn't enough in some situations 18:24 rubenwardy xban2 is awesome 18:25 Fixer my ISP moved to crap department, everybody has CGNAT :( So many people under 1 IP 18:25 est31 rubenwardy, do you know whether they use mobile clients 18:25 est31 or do they use non mobile ones 18:25 VanessaE_ of course using a key has an extra benefit: no need for passwords :) 18:25 rubenwardy I haven't installed any stats 18:26 rubenwardy Is it possible to make a stats mod to see the OS/device of people connecting? 18:26 est31 rubenwardy, only with a debug build, unfortunately 18:26 est31 but OS and device are not possible 18:26 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: or, run a media server for your minetest server. 18:26 rubenwardy the client has to be though 18:26 VanessaE_ and get your stats from that. 18:26 rubenwardy that's good 18:26 est31 there is no user agent like stuff for minetest, unfortunately 18:26 VanessaE_ surely the user agent varies between andr... 18:26 VanessaE_ damn. 18:27 est31 but yeah, media server will work 18:27 rubenwardy what's a light weight media server which will record these things? 18:27 VanessaE_ nginx 18:28 VanessaE_ scrape the logs 18:30 Fixer https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3652271/getting-os-version ? 18:30 rubenwardy not for clients 18:31 rubenwardy mods run server side 18:31 Fixer oh :S 18:31 Fixer damned 18:36 Fixer for example, CS 1.6 anticheat utilizes cookies to ban efficiently (if you block port 80 in firewall, you can avoid the ban) 18:36 Fixer but it is somewhat crude and not safe 18:36 Fixer better avoid the web stuff in mt 18:37 est31 CS what? 18:37 rubenwardy counterstrike 18:37 est31 aha 18:38 est31 well blocking port 80 is one option 18:38 est31 or just deleting cookies is the other 18:38 Fixer nevermind, don't implement web browser in mt, it will open huge security holes :( 18:38 est31 I doubt we should get supercookies like VanessaE_ promotes 18:38 est31 they can be abused like normal cookies too 18:38 VanessaE_ using port 80 isn't really an option anyway; how would it work with several servers on the same machine? 18:38 est31 VanessaE_ is a nice person, and most of the server owners are too 18:39 est31 but things can change, cookies werent invented with ad tracking in mind either 18:39 rubenwardy There's no griefing in CTF, only sabotage - no real loss or destruction. 18:39 est31 most of the server owners == all that I know 18:40 rubenwardy if you were to make supercookies, they'd have to be only for banning. Possibly for linking multi-account users 18:43 Calinou idea: give each user on a minetest server a unique key (something simple, an ssl hash or something) unique to them - not associated with username or password, and persistent across sessions. 18:43 Calinou this is what Quake 3 did with GUIDs, easily fakeable and abusable 18:43 Calinou it almost became a meme, it was so easy to change GUIDs :p 18:43 VanessaE_ heh 18:44 VanessaE_ remember, perfect is the enemy of good :P 18:44 est31 lets add DRM to minetest 18:44 est31 and make it closed source 18:44 est31 then nobody can use cracked minetest clients anymore! 18:44 VanessaE_ :P 18:44 RealBadAngel lol 18:44 Calinou est31, let's reinvent PunkBuster! 18:44 Calinou admin-requested clients of screenshots. 18:44 Calinou 100% cheatproof 18:44 Calinou screenshots of clients* 18:45 RealBadAngel est31, wanna feature request? 18:45 VanessaE_ you guys joke about it, but I'm being serious. 18:46 VanessaE_ it's a problem. there's gotta be some kind of solution that works well enough. 18:46 RealBadAngel quite easy, all the code needed is here 18:46 rubenwardy Just because it's not fool proof doesn't mean it's not needed 18:46 Calinou yes 18:46 Calinou it is possible to have a GUID-like system, Xonotic does that for its stats system. 18:46 Calinou it is useful. 18:46 rubenwardy However, I don't know if I like the idea 18:46 Calinou but don't think it's reliable for banning 18:47 RealBadAngel est31, do you dare or not? 18:48 Fixer please, no pankbaster 18:49 RealBadAngel chicken :) 18:52 RealBadAngel but seriously, somebody please implement Lua join(rejoin) to the server 18:52 rubenwardy What do you mean? 18:52 rubenwardy redirect, or reconnect? 18:52 Fixer yes, without even unloading everything 18:52 Fixer reconnect 18:52 RealBadAngel merge all the servers 18:53 VanessaE_ you mean like linking books in MC? 18:53 RealBadAngel by walkin thru gate or somethin like that 18:53 RealBadAngel i mean literally merge all the servers into one big web 18:54 RealBadAngel thx to the connections between them 18:54 VanessaE_ right 18:54 Fixer you connect to server it has big tablo with signs that has server info, you punch some and connect to it 18:54 RealBadAngel how to enter the gate is not a problem 18:55 VanessaE_ I guess I meant portals anyway 18:55 VanessaE_ linking book is some other game 18:55 Fixer yes 18:55 RealBadAngel we need reconnect (and failback) funtions 18:55 VanessaE_ it's a good idea 18:55 RealBadAngel we can define rules later on 18:55 RealBadAngel like what player can carry 18:56 VanessaE_ by default, nothing 18:56 VanessaE_ (I would hope) 18:56 RealBadAngel we can have rich mine worlds, just building ones 18:56 RealBadAngel you would like to visit rich world 18:57 RealBadAngel just to dig a lot 18:57 Fixer we heading in wrong direction 18:57 Fixer are 18:58 RealBadAngel with this idea? 18:58 Fixer we need celeron55 finished farmap to unblock the development 18:58 Calinou farmap is overrated. 18:58 Calinou just optimize generic block rendering further 18:58 VanessaE_ farmap is useful but other stuff needs done with it 18:58 Calinou then players can increase their view distance to match's Minecraft 18:58 VanessaE_ like that ^^^ 18:58 Calinou (which is pretty far by default) 18:58 RealBadAngel farmesh is something to improve your view 18:58 Calinou I remember when I played Minecraft in 2010, I was amazed by the default "far" view distance 18:58 Fixer yes, but celeron55 asked no touch that stuff until farmap is ready, and farmap branch is 14 days old now 18:59 VanessaE_ if celeron55 isn't going to finish farmap soon, then the other rendering code needs improved. 18:59 RealBadAngel connecting all the worlds is something different 18:59 VanessaE_ RealBadAngel: I think he means that distance rendering is needed so that a given server appears sufficiently far into the distance? 18:59 RealBadAngel its gonna affect the gameplay and community 18:59 Fixer celeron55, hi, any news on farmap, when will it be finished? 18:59 RealBadAngel not just what one folk can see on the monitor 18:59 Fixer RealBadAngel, no it is not 19:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, it is just ingame server browser 19:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, we have lots of server but few players actually 19:00 RealBadAngel fixer, u got it wrong, totally 19:00 RealBadAngel i meant INGAME 19:00 Calinou could we experiment with defaulting to dedicated_server_step = 0.05? 19:00 Calinou it could result in more responsive gameplay 19:00 Calinou I've set that on my Hunger Games server 19:00 Fixer RealBadAngel, like in MC? 19:01 RealBadAngel Calinou, nrzkt set it to 0.005 19:01 RealBadAngel 0.025 19:01 Calinou well if you have spare CPU, that can be OK 19:01 Calinou but why not default to 0.05? my single-core server does well with that 19:01 RealBadAngel Fixer,mc doesnt have connected world 19:01 VanessaE_ Calinou: throw playlife + biome_lib at it. 19:01 rubenwardy What is it that limits Minetest to ~20 players before lag? 19:01 VanessaE_ that's a good way (imho) to test globalstep speeds. 19:02 RealBadAngel i mean smooth transitons from one server to another 19:02 Calinou VanessaE_, maybe mods could apply a factor to the server step 19:02 rubenwardy plantlife? 19:02 RealBadAngel without exiting to the menu 19:02 Calinou so that, as soon as heavy mods are installed, the server step is doubled (halved FPS) 19:02 RealBadAngel just stepping the gate 19:02 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: I've had as many as 40 on one of my servers without significant lag. it's all in the network performance really 19:02 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: yeah, because biome_lib by itself doesn't do anything useful. 19:02 Fixer RealBadAngel, that is sooo far ahead, you should better polish PR 3166 that will bring hope to many 19:03 RealBadAngel Fixer, damn, this idea is far simpler to make 19:03 Fixer RealBadAngel, and occlusion culing per block 19:03 RealBadAngel lol 19:03 rubenwardy VanessaE_, you said playlife 19:03 RealBadAngel and what? fix irrlicht? 19:03 RealBadAngel :) 19:03 VanessaE_ rubenwardy: shit. :) 19:03 Fixer yes!11 19:04 VanessaE_ RealBadAngel: "Stay on target. Stay on target!" 19:04 Calinou would it possible to do occlusion culling on GPU? 19:04 RealBadAngel i do have my own targets 19:04 Calinou using hardware occlusion queries 19:04 RealBadAngel but YOU dont have any 19:04 Fixer RealBadAngel, occlusion is working on per 8*8*8 blocks basis, somewhere on wiki i've seen it needs to be made per each block to improve (maybe celeron wrote it idn) 19:05 VanessaE_ Fixer: it needs to be done on a per-NODE basis I think. 19:05 Fixer yes 19:05 VanessaE_ let the damn GPU do its job 19:05 Fixer per node 19:05 RealBadAngel fixer, im coding candies, rarely something other :P 19:05 Fixer RealBadAngel, candies slow down everything 19:05 RealBadAngel ofc 19:05 RealBadAngel there are no free candies :P 19:05 Fixer smth is wrong with MT 19:05 Fixer too much lags 19:06 Fixer everybody is complaining 19:06 Fixer it is an issue 19:06 Calinou per-node is probably too much, even if on the GPU 19:06 RealBadAngel 3166 is something about it 19:06 Fixer lag or low fps 19:06 Calinou Fixer, yeah, even my new laptop doesn't run Minetest that fast 19:06 VanessaE_ Calinou: per mapblock then 19:06 RealBadAngel but nobody is willing to help me with that 19:06 Calinou there should be a release dedicated to otpimization… 19:06 Calinou both server and client 19:06 VanessaE_ anyway something other than some huge quantity 19:07 VanessaE_ Calinou: 0.4.14 was supposed to be bugfix + optimization release. 19:07 Calinou VanessaE_, well for a start, occlusion culling could be toggleable on client 19:07 VanessaE_ that was the plan but I guess that got thrown out already 19:07 Calinou so that we can see if it actually helps (it might not) 19:07 Fixer it is not even 0.4.13.1 right now :} 19:07 Fixer i lied somewhat 19:08 rubenwardy #3166 19:08 VanessaE_ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3166 19:08 VanessaE_ Send to clients only changed node metadata instad of whole mapblock 19:08 rubenwardy ah 19:09 rubenwardy thats still not done? 19:09 VanessaE_ nope. RealBadAngel needs help with it. 19:09 Fixer RealBadAngel, let me view dozens of programming lectures, read python book, c++ book, lua book, and maybe I will help somehow (in this century)... or not :p accountant is too damb for that (actually not) 19:10 Calinou I'd like Minetest to get a fancy UI 19:10 rubenwardy samn 19:10 Calinou Doomsday has awesome UI, made using Qt 5 19:10 rubenwardy * same 19:10 Fixer please fix bugs, make fancy later 19:11 Fixer it is slow as snail 19:11 rubenwardy true 19:11 Fixer it is very slow 19:11 rubenwardy but part of fixing formspecs and HUD is making the UI better 19:11 Fixer MC can handle 100 of players 19:11 Fixer MT becames slow with >10 players 19:11 exio4 \o/ 19:11 rubenwardy hudkit mades hud bearable 19:11 VanessaE MC has the advantage that it spreads the load too 19:11 rubenwardy but still not 19:11 rubenwardy good 19:11 exio4 this works 19:12 VanessaE I've been told that the CPU usage on any given machine or server is all spread out across all connected machines, like some sort of basic clustering. 19:12 exio4 Calinou: you were the one saying "boost is nice, wth are we not using C++11?" right 19:12 exio4 VanessaE: er, what, that must be really new 19:12 Fixer when someone goes to explore in multiplayer server starts to lag for everybody 19:12 VanessaE exio4: my info may be wrong. it's just something I recall reading somewhere. 19:12 exio4 as far as I know the last stable release of minecraft doesn't do that 19:12 exio4 latest* 19:13 VanessaE hm. wonder where I got that from then 19:13 exio4 minetest should be rewritten 19:13 exio4 it is a lot of work 19:14 exio4 but people have been fighting with the current code for like 2 years 19:14 exio4 dont they realize it's insane to keep going on that? 19:14 VanessaE who's gonna rewrite it? 19:14 VanessaE that's not just a "lot" of work, it's an insane amount. 19:15 exio4 let's see how much we can get with donations and hire some of the current devs? 19:15 VanessaE that's been done. the answer is "nowhere". 19:15 exio4 i didnt know about that one 19:15 Calinou http://archive.hugo.pro/doomsday-ui.webm 19:15 exio4 VanessaE: let's consider this though 19:16 Calinou (this is Doomsday Engine) 19:16 exio4 VanessaE: how `much` work is it to fix the current bugs? 19:16 Calinou it likes to use fancy transitions for sure :p 19:16 Fixer better hope that irrlicht will not die some day... it is already in a hospital 19:16 VanessaE exio4: I couldn't give you a figure, but "a fuckton" might be close. 19:16 Calinou Fixer, Urho3D could be used for a rewrite :P 19:16 exio4 VanessaE: so you're comparing two insane-level amounts of work 19:17 VanessaE Calinou: wasn't c55 targeting that for his buildat thing? 19:17 Fixer Calinou, i will start the rewrite, will be finished close to "heat death of the universe" 19:18 VanessaE exio4: the way I've seen people talk around here, fixing all of the bugs would be more work than a total rewrite, which would be more work than rewriting, let's say, The GIMP. :P 19:18 Fixer and now Zeno has quit and we stuck on irrlicht 19:18 VanessaE I think the real problem is just time. 19:18 VanessaE no one has any 19:18 exio4 time = money 19:18 Fixer yes 19:18 exio4 we thus, need money 19:18 VanessaE exio4: fuck that 19:19 VanessaE I refuse to believe that 19:19 Fixer development is so slow here, look how many PRs out there 19:19 Calinou VanessaE, yes, he used Urho3D for it 19:19 Calinou it's pretty decent IMO 19:19 VanessaE time = money if, and only if, you would otherwise spend that time making money at your job or something. 19:19 Calinou comes with AngelScript, or Lua scripting 19:20 VanessaE if that time would otherwise be spent in some leisure activity, it does NOT euqate to money! 19:20 VanessaE equate* 19:20 Fixer people has very few time to review PRs 19:20 rubenwardy If you paid the devs so they could work on MT, instead of their (old) job 19:21 exio4 they'd need to accept a not-insane salary though :P 19:21 VanessaE define "not insane" 19:21 Fixer like few dollars per month (from donations) 19:21 Fixer $) 19:21 VanessaE seems the going rate for a good coder is around $150k a year now 19:21 Calinou $150k? wow 19:21 exio4 nah, the idea is to first get the donations, then see how much we get 19:21 exio4 VanessaE: that's an american-salary 19:21 VanessaE 50-60k/year if you're just "so so" 19:21 RealBadAngel what are you talkin about? 19:21 Calinou yeah, usually developers refuse getting less than $50k 19:22 VanessaE Calinou: yeah, it's ridiculous. 19:22 exio4 VanessaE: which, compared to pretty much every other country on earth, is insanely high 19:22 RealBadAngel you mean all those yrs of coding stuff was for money? 19:22 rubenwardy ofc 19:22 Fixer developers got very good salaries in East Europe, others just work for food *cough* 19:22 RealBadAngel i do work just for food 19:22 VanessaE RealBadAngel: an old, stupid americanism. "Time is money." 19:23 rubenwardy You could make it enough for a part time job, alongside another one 19:23 RealBadAngel but i dont care 19:23 Fixer VanessaE, but it works 19:23 Fixer VanessaE, runs the economy 19:23 VanessaE Fixer: it works if you're a greedy bastard :P 19:23 RealBadAngel my "real" life is coding 19:23 VanessaE "YOu mean I've only been a capitalist for four hours and I already owe $10,000 ??" "That's what makes our system work -- everybody owes everybody." 19:24 VanessaE (might have botched the quote. from the movie "One, Two, Three") 19:24 exio4 it's easy, if I want to live with certain standard of living, you need money, one way to get money legally is to work, you thus decide to work, and you spend time on something, for a monetary recompensation 19:24 RealBadAngel its just a point in my timeline when i gen fire up browser, check the forums 19:24 VanessaE exio4: yes, TO A POINT. 19:24 RealBadAngel see what was done 19:24 exio4 VanessaE: capitalism is what the US has given to the world! you should be proud of it! 19:24 RealBadAngel and see if i can do anything more 19:24 VanessaE there's a point beyond which working for money is useless (even in the face of the extra income) 19:25 exio4 yes, obviously 19:25 exio4 you won't hire somebody at random 19:26 RealBadAngel hiring somebody to do hobby work is kinda pointless 19:26 RealBadAngel you will offecnce all the ones doing it for free 19:27 exio4 whatever, I wouldn't feel offended if somebody is being paid to do the nasty work =) 19:28 RealBadAngel nasty work could be made if folk start to cooperate 19:28 RealBadAngel no need for extra payment 19:28 RealBadAngel just a simple kick in the ass ;) 19:28 VanessaE I make my stuff for free because I want to make stuff people will find useful. Good legacy, I think. 19:29 Fixer exio4, it has its faults, but it works, don't ask me about communist regimes, my country lost millions of people because of it (capitalism with some state regulation is good, law and order must be supported though). 19:29 exio4 VanessaE: how do you spend your time? 19:29 VanessaE (even when I sell hardware, others are welcome to make those things themselves too) 19:29 VanessaE exio4: most of the time? reading or watching movies. 19:29 RealBadAngel Fixer, whats ur nationality btw? 19:29 Fixer ukrainian 19:29 exio4 VanessaE: ok, I mean, how do you get your money? 19:29 RealBadAngel pretty close, im polish 19:30 VanessaE exio4: I am disabled. 19:30 VanessaE (so, federal money) 19:30 Fixer just avoid totalitarian leftist regimes... it sucked too much blood from people 19:30 RealBadAngel fixer, do you know we were one country once? 19:30 VanessaE when I worked, it varied. labor of some kind usually. customer service. did sysadmin work for a while too (not that good at it though, at the time). 19:31 Fixer RealBadAngel, we all changed countries a lot of times, our nation is finally free and independent from Ussr/Russia 19:31 Fixer but it is offtopic 19:31 JohnnyComeL8ly [off] This is Dev... isn't it? =) 19:31 exio4 VanessaE: ok, that explains your position, nvm 19:31 VanessaE JohnnyComeL8ly: it was. now it's #capitalist-bitch-session 19:31 exio4 Fixer: any extreme is bad 19:31 VanessaE exio4: when I was working, the same rule applied. 19:32 exio4 (iow, the US and the USSR are bad!) 19:32 Fixer [off] at least in USA people are mostly free to speak up, in USSR it was death or prison 19:33 Fixer i don't want to live in that 19:33 VanessaE Fixer: unless you say the wrong thing to the wrong person. then expect to have your life financially ruined, here. 19:34 exio4 let's go with a 5-day week, 120 hours, you spend 30 hours working, 10 doing things directly-related to work, 40 hours spent sleeping, leaves you with 40 hours for fun per 5-day week,, assume you have family / friends, reduced to 10/15 hours per week on anything you want 19:34 VanessaE (jail, not usually so much. but corps love to sue) 19:35 Fixer VanessaE, that is more USA thing, Europe was always more people oriented 19:35 RealBadAngel old times are a thing to bitch on 19:35 VanessaE Fixer: so I assume 19:35 RealBadAngel now we are independent 19:35 Fixer Europe is somewhat left (socialistic) 19:35 exio4 see, this is why I wanted to move the conversation to the main channel VanessaE :p 19:35 RealBadAngel no matter when we live 19:36 rubenwardy except England 19:36 rubenwardy very right wing 19:36 RealBadAngel now its the time to join the worlds 19:36 RealBadAngel also in mt 19:36 JohnnyComeL8ly This is why ppl freak out about -dev being flooded.... :P 19:36 Fixer sometimes i want more right here, populism in socialism can ruin everything 19:37 exio4 populism is the worst 19:37 rubenwardy I'm willing to offer bounties for features, but I only have finite money, and not everyone is motivated by bounties 19:37 RealBadAngel JohnnyComeL8ly, we are talkin now about the ideas that can change the game 19:37 Fixer populism is what was in Greece and many exUSSR countries 19:37 RealBadAngel each server has a few players 19:38 RealBadAngel we do have 20+ servers 19:38 exio4 rubenwardy: that sounds nicer 19:38 RealBadAngel now lets make new player join 19:38 RealBadAngel he will see 100+ folks 19:38 exio4 rubenwardy: have some central entity to pick up money and then setup bounties on things :P 19:38 RealBadAngel on all the servers 19:39 RealBadAngel snowball effect 19:39 Fixer example, in Ukraine heating cost was 5 cent/m^3, while real cost was 9x more, difference was paid by state, there was "cheap" heating for people and costly for enterprises. That was proven to be a disaster 19:39 Fixer state incurret HUGE loss 19:39 Fixer 100 of billion just on heating 19:39 Fixer that kind of economy will ruin everything 19:40 Fixer now they are moving to real price for all with subsidies for poor people 19:40 JohnnyComeL8ly [off] RealBadAngel, I suppose that is the case... I was mostly pointing out inconsistency.... 19:40 Fixer before that subsidies were for all 19:41 Fixer yes, it is development channel, sry, I hope celeron will not ban us this day 19:41 RealBadAngel JohnnyComeL8ly, case is to move development forward 19:41 Fixer but please highlight him, he wanted to finish farmap, maybe he waits for some poke :} 19:41 RealBadAngel candies, farmesh wont get us nowhere 19:41 RealBadAngel but fresh and unique ideas can 19:42 JohnnyComeL8ly Yes. 19:42 Fixer nobody will code it anyway 19:42 Fixer :} 19:42 RealBadAngel Fixer, code for that is already in the engine 19:42 JohnnyComeL8ly I think that the game should be simplified before it is advanced. 19:42 RealBadAngel you are using it each time you join the server 19:42 Fixer minetest lags... it add to my depression 19:42 Fixer adds* 19:43 RealBadAngel lags, srags or whatever 19:43 RealBadAngel shit happens 19:43 Fixer first you need responsiveness boost 19:43 RealBadAngel its your shit and get used to it 19:43 Fixer lol, yes 19:43 RealBadAngel at least you can yell at others 19:44 RealBadAngel its your sandbox :) 19:44 Fixer liquid bugs are horrible please fix!!1 19:44 Fixer that hanging water columns... 19:44 Fixer they are on every server 19:44 JohnnyComeL8ly MT isn't responsible for infrastructure... it is too bad not everyone is able to just connect to the same lan.... 19:44 JohnnyComeL8ly That would be awesome! 19:44 RealBadAngel not the same lan 19:45 RealBadAngel all the servers around and you can WALK to join another 19:45 RealBadAngel thats the point 19:46 JohnnyComeL8ly Yeah! 19:46 RealBadAngel server admins can set up gates, with rules 19:46 RealBadAngel in no time we can have all connected 19:46 Fixer look at LinuxGaming2 server, after moving to other VPS and to 0.4.13 it has huge max_lag from time to time, and admin can't mitigate it (mod profilier is too hard for him) 19:47 Fixer and I get up to 15 fps in stable (thats without technic or mesecons iirc) 19:47 Fixer in spawn* 19:48 Calinou some people just use too many mods 19:49 VanessaE "too many mods" really shouldn't affect FPS 19:49 Fixer they have only 79 mods that are quite simple 19:49 VanessaE especially if those mods are on some remote server. 19:50 exio4 entities have to be rendered by the client 19:50 VanessaE (the wrong *choice* of mods can, such as that ^^^) 19:50 exio4 and nodes need to be known by the client too 19:50 * Fixer .oO(also ... Inventory lag problem!) 19:52 est31 well yeah VanessaE is right 19:53 est31 there is only this meta change stuff 19:53 est31 but that shouldnt affect 19:53 * est31 hopes we store GUI outside of meta one day 19:53 RealBadAngel est31, meta stuff is affecting developed servers a lot 19:54 RealBadAngel more than you can imagine 19:54 est31 well yeah, this has to be fixed 19:55 RealBadAngel it can be fixed, with some help 19:55 RealBadAngel ive made most of the work 19:55 VanessaE hence #3166... 19:55 RealBadAngel and i dont mean here whities comments 19:55 VanessaE I still say merge it now and fix the double-send glitch later. 19:55 VanessaE 2 nodes' worth is better than 7 whole mapblocks' worth. 19:56 RealBadAngel sesnding logic is quite fixed 19:56 est31 I still say merge it now and fix the double-send glitch later. 19:56 RealBadAngel i dont have an idea how to resolve it 19:56 est31 you are the one that cries "stability" dont you? 19:57 RealBadAngel est31, that commit is tested for 2 month already 19:57 Fixer granted fixing lags is not stability issues -_- 19:57 VanessaE est31: I am, but I've tested that code in the past. it was stable for me, though it didn't offer my as big an improvement as others may see. 19:57 RealBadAngel and it fucking workss 19:57 VanessaE offer me* 19:57 RealBadAngel its a part of epixel 19:57 est31 nrzkt's changes were "tested for 2 months" too, and they introduced tons of regressions either way 19:58 VanessaE est31: fair enough. 19:58 RealBadAngel maybe 19:58 VanessaE but we're gonna get nowhere if no one tests and helps complete the code 19:58 RealBadAngel but that one reduces load a lot 19:58 RealBadAngel think for chirst sake 19:58 est31 RealBadAngel, just fix the bug, its so trivial, and you still dont fix it 19:58 Fixer can developers focus on helping RBA with 3166? 19:58 RealBadAngel bug? 19:58 VanessaE RealBadAngel: the double-send glitch? 19:59 Fixer you should be a team 19:59 est31 and the send-to-completely-remote-clients bug 19:59 est31 which is far worse 19:59 VanessaE oh yeah, I forgot about that one 19:59 RealBadAngel double send glitch is lack of queue 19:59 est31 you stand at spawn, get the metadata changes for the whole fucking server 19:59 est31 double send isnt that much of an issue 19:59 RealBadAngel est31, ah i see 20:00 VanessaE est31: is that a regression? 20:00 est31 VanessaE, yes. 20:00 VanessaE eepo 20:00 RealBadAngel that can be resolved in the same queue 20:00 VanessaE eep* 20:02 RealBadAngel damn, i just cant figure how to make that queue properly 20:02 RealBadAngel this is where im stuck 20:02 RealBadAngel dont u get it? 20:02 est31 hrmmm 20:03 est31 its basically just a bitset, not a queue 20:03 est31 really huge bitset 20:03 RealBadAngel its tick time 20:03 est31 can be done via hashmap I guess. 20:04 RealBadAngel collect all the meta changes, remove duplicates, and send them as list 20:04 RealBadAngel farplayers can be used to remove clients that should not receive the update 20:05 RealBadAngel and just get setBlockNotSent instead 20:05 est31 exactly 20:05 est31 so do it, no queue needed 20:05 RealBadAngel atm 3166 has a single meta change send 20:05 RealBadAngel but it can be a list 20:05 RealBadAngel theres code to process lists 20:06 RealBadAngel so we can bunch them 20:08 RealBadAngel theres a loop already, to process all the events, map update ones 20:08 RealBadAngel far players is declared just before 20:09 RealBadAngel i feel like some of the logic should be made inside this very loop 20:09 RealBadAngel to send blockNotSent 20:10 RealBadAngel and the rest oustide 20:10 RealBadAngel this way i can get rid of far players 20:10 RealBadAngel and maintain compability with older clients at the same time 20:18 VanessaE so what's gonna be? 20:18 VanessaE hem and haw over 3166 or fix it? 20:23 celeron55 stability comes first; it's the only sane way of doing things based on the experiences this year 20:24 celeron55 i'm really worried again now that hmmmm isn't around again 20:29 VanessaE at least he's around. we lost zeno (lack of interest) 20:29 celeron55 i know; zeno /msg'd me when he left 20:30 est31 and hmmmm 's at vacation, so he isnt really around either. 20:30 celeron55 he was quite absent anyway for a long time already so it's not very surprising 20:34 celeron55 also yes, my farmap schedule is a train wreck 20:35 celeron55 i just rebased it on upstream/master though so that's somethting 20:35 celeron55 -t 20:37 celeron55 my priority is to get it stable before asking it to be reviewed for merging, and frankly the rule of the last 10% being the another 90% applies here 20:37 VanessaE heh 20:37 celeron55 i'm not going to even pretend otherwise 20:39 celeron55 to those arguing about regular mapblock rendering having to be faster: yeah probably; i'm laying some possible groundwork for doing that when doing this so the future of that isn't probably completely hopeless 20:40 celeron55 GPU-based occlusion culling isn't some kind of magic bullet like some poeple seem to be thinking 20:41 celeron55 urho3d can do it easily and i tested the performance when developing buildat; it's not a trivial solution in voxel environments 20:41 VanessaE celeron55: perhaps not, but can it really be argued that a GPU would be slower at that task than regular software? 20:42 celeron55 you need to take into account the amount of work required for making changes and also the inflexibilities of irrlicht 20:42 VanessaE (assuming a modern, still-supported-by-OEM GPU of course) 20:43 celeron55 the amount of skilled work required* 20:45 Fixer what about per node software oclusion? 20:45 est31 Fixer, that would be against how stuff works currently 20:45 celeron55 per node occlusion culling immediately shows that the person doesn't know what they are talking about 20:46 rubenwardy per node occlusion wouldn't be good, that implies you draw nodes individually 20:46 VanessaE sure it does. why wipe entires mapblocks of content off the screen if the GPU can render them at a given frame rate? 20:46 VanessaE -s 20:46 Fixer for example, if I stand 50 nodes away from spawn and looking at wall in direction of spawn, my fps goes down a lot 20:47 VanessaE (the converse as stated by fixer applies as well) 20:47 VanessaE maybe calling it "per node" is the wrong way to think of it then 20:50 est31 per node occlusion would make sense, yes, but do it via a vertex shader please. 20:50 VanessaE point is, you've got X number of polys going into the rendering pipeline, and somehow you gotta keep them below Y number of polys for them to render at some given FPS. 20:51 celeron55 VanessaE: your hardware isn't poly-limited; it's almost purely number-of-drawcalls limited at least when VBOs are used 20:51 VanessaE whether you divide them into nodes, mapblocks, or chunks or some other measure, Y needs to be as close as possible to X without distorting your view. 20:51 celeron55 and GPU occlusion culling requires more drawcalls 20:51 RealBadAngel celeron55, whatever you gonna say about occlusion, forcing client to regen meshes for several mapblocks is just wrong 20:51 VanessaE celeron55: ok. well I'm just being a bit simplistic here, I'm sure you understand. 20:52 RealBadAngel with a single meta change... i mean 20:52 VanessaE of course with MT not using VBO right now... 20:52 celeron55 RealBadAngel: wrong? well it's wrong if you can fix it properly; not otherwise 20:52 VanessaE celeron55: he needs help to fix it. 20:53 RealBadAngel celeron55, its total waste of resources. move somehthing in a chest == regen of 9 mapblocks 20:53 RealBadAngel its your design? 20:54 celeron55 the design is rather KISS; it doesn't special-case anything 20:54 RealBadAngel well that particular KISS KILLS ant complex server... 20:55 RealBadAngel *any 20:57 RealBadAngel celeron55, and thats the problem, once it was chosen to send whole mapblock 20:57 RealBadAngel and it is like that since always 20:57 VanessaE or more to the point, it is detrimental to any client, particularly slow-CPU ones, who is connecting to a complex server. 20:57 RealBadAngel now mods plays a lot with meta 20:57 RealBadAngel entering complex world kills the clients 20:57 celeron55 RealBadAngel: you don't need to talk about it to me 20:58 celeron55 RealBadAngel: so you shouldn't 20:58 RealBadAngel celeron55, so are you aware of how it is important or you just dont care about it? 20:58 celeron55 RealBadAngel: special casing it probably makes sense; it's out of scope for me 20:59 RealBadAngel so dont care, right? 20:59 celeron55 make it, and make it not buggy, and make it compatible and otherwise good too 20:59 celeron55 don't bug me about it 21:00 celeron55 i am not your caretaker 21:01 VanessaE guys, stop.. 21:01 RealBadAngel ofc not 21:02 RealBadAngel im just asking here for some help to finish that damn task 21:02 RealBadAngel if i do realize where the problem is it doesnt mean i can code the solution 21:05 celeron55 the thing is, if i dig into it enough to help you, i might just as well just fix the whole thing myself 21:06 celeron55 it's almost the same amount of work, maybe even less 21:06 RealBadAngel most of the work is already done i think 21:06 celeron55 i'll rather use my time to focus on what i last started doing and didn't finish yet 21:07 RealBadAngel ok. i wont push it anymore and will try again to do it on my own 21:07 RealBadAngel peace? 21:09 celeron55 this is not a special occasion; this is generally the case when people ask for help; and yes, i don't hold a grudge about this if you understand this 21:10 RealBadAngel celeron55, ok 21:26 RealBadAngel celeron55, on your farmesh code youre using VBO, have you found a reliable way to make sure that unused meshes got deleted? 21:28 RealBadAngel thats raher important question, moving mapblock meshes to hw buffers doubles the framerate 21:31 celeron55 at least it never re-creates the meshes in the way mapblock meshes are completely re-created 21:31 celeron55 but i'm not sure if it has the same problem or not 21:31 RealBadAngel if they got uploaded theyre stored 21:32 RealBadAngel so the same problem 21:33 RealBadAngel youre usin static flag, meaning uploading once 21:34 celeron55 it would seem that if nothing else works, creating a VBO mesh pool would work, because irrlicht will update them in-place when you mark them dirty (i mean, god help us if it even then creates a duplicate (it won't)) 21:34 celeron55 there's also IVideoDriver::removeHardwareBuffer 21:34 RealBadAngel we were playin already with VBO code 21:35 RealBadAngel flushing the buffers was the problem 21:35 celeron55 what does "flushing the buffers" even mean? 21:36 RealBadAngel clear the GPU memory used? idk, VBO idea was killed because of it 21:37 VanessaE celeron55: in the old code, over time outdated VBO entries would pile up as mapblocks are changed, and never get cleared out 21:37 VanessaE effectively creating a memory leak 21:37 celeron55 yes i know that was the diagnosis back then 21:38 celeron55 and it will happen now too if you enable VBOs AFAIK 21:38 RealBadAngel you did 21:38 RealBadAngel thats why im askin 21:41 RealBadAngel have you solved memleaks issue with VBO or just put the problem away to be solved later on 21:42 celeron55 checking it is one of the tens of entries on my far map to-do list 21:42 celeron55 it hasn't seemed like a huge issue when i have been testing it though 21:42 celeron55 not sure why, but anyway 21:43 RealBadAngel that issue was here before your farmesh code 21:43 RealBadAngel solution to it could be of great surplus 21:44 RealBadAngel twice fps doesnt walk the street for free ;) 21:45 RealBadAngel celeron55, ive also havent seen any issues when testing VBO push code (i would like to get and see memleaks about it) 21:47 RealBadAngel all the sources i read mentioned forced delete with removeHardwareBuffer after some time (not used, timer or whatever) 21:49 RealBadAngel if it is problematic, couldnt it be pushed mainstream for more folks to test it? 21:50 RealBadAngel we can always revert single change 21:50 RealBadAngel but feedback is priceless 21:51 celeron55 if you could link said changeset here, it would be helpful 21:51 RealBadAngel it was initially PilzAdam's code 21:52 celeron55 i don't care whose it was or where it originally was; i care where it's available currently 21:52 RealBadAngel he forgert about setting mesh to dirty in animation 21:52 RealBadAngel so it was its visible flaw 21:53 celeron55 many things have changed since then so it might just work for whatever unknown reason now 21:53 RealBadAngel i can prepare quickly a PR with it 21:53 celeron55 like, irrlicht 1.8 could have fixed it 21:53 celeron55 or whatever 21:53 RealBadAngel thats a few liners 21:54 VanessaE https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/tree/vbo 21:54 VanessaE last two commits in that branch by the look of it 21:55 RealBadAngel ah, he really introduced the timer 21:55 celeron55 if you make a PR, label it as "request for testing, not for merging"; that should give us some information we need 21:55 RealBadAngel from what ive read thats good 21:57 RealBadAngel in this case request for testing should be screamed out loud 21:57 RealBadAngel on every platform 21:57 Obani Guys, I've got a problem 21:57 celeron55 a windows build could be made possibly 21:57 RealBadAngel oh, NO 21:57 Obani I compiled Minetest with latest commit 21:57 celeron55 i'm sure people will test it if you suggest it might give more FPS 8) 21:57 Obani An got this error at launching http://pastebin.com/M9rQhpqi 21:57 Obani (I cannot launch the game because of a segmentation error) 21:58 RealBadAngel celeron55, it doubles the fps, believe me 21:58 celeron55 RealBadAngel: tell it to testers 21:58 RealBadAngel oke doke, i will 21:59 Fixer i will test it, just give me windows binary 21:59 nrzkt Fix should be backported to current minetest 22:00 RealBadAngel not yet, hold on please. maybe tommorow 22:00 nrzkt using the branch as is is not a test :) 22:00 JohnnyComeL8ly Fixer, use Linux... that is the best way to test. 22:00 RealBadAngel celeron55, i do have another question: https://github.com/Jeija/minetest/tree/clientside_mods 22:01 RealBadAngel why that was not in? 22:01 RealBadAngel asking because i do need that funcionality 22:01 RealBadAngel at least on startup 22:02 RealBadAngel you have mentioned lately client side mods 22:03 Obani "Audio: Vorbis extension NOT present" 22:03 Obani What does it mean ? 22:04 Obani A missing package ? 22:04 Obani lib ? 22:04 JohnnyComeL8ly Maybe you didn't compile with Vorbis support.... 22:04 JohnnyComeL8ly Yes, something like that. 22:04 Obani ok... 22:04 JohnnyComeL8ly Didn't you install all the deps? 22:05 Obani ??? 22:05 Obani It crashes becaus ether is no main_menu music ? 0.o 22:05 JohnnyComeL8ly No. 22:06 JohnnyComeL8ly What did you install? 22:06 RealBadAngel main menu file can show you just a warning 22:06 RealBadAngel cannot be a reason to crash 22:06 JohnnyComeL8ly The exact same list as in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/README.txt 22:07 Obani Look, it as been working for 3 years 22:07 Obani Why should it crash now ? xD 22:09 JohnnyComeL8ly Obani... did you install all the deps? 22:09 Obani I'm doing it right now 22:09 Obani Some were added :p 22:09 Obani (since last time) 22:09 JohnnyComeL8ly Well, that could be our problem. 22:11 Obani Let's recompile it... yay ! 22:12 JohnnyComeL8ly I'm excited too. 22:15 RealBadAngel celeron55, whats your word on jeija's PR ? 22:17 Obani Still got the same errors 22:17 Obani After installing the depencies and recompiling 22:18 JohnnyComeL8ly Did you do a complete rebuild or were there things that didn't get rebuilt? 22:19 JohnnyComeL8ly Obani ^^ 22:19 Obani I did a complet rebuilt 22:19 Obani complete* 22:19 Obani JohnnyComeL8ly, yes ? 22:20 JohnnyComeL8ly I'm not able to explain it properly, but there are things that are built before it is all tied together, and some of those things might be "old" 22:21 Obani JohnnyComeL8ly, I should reclone the git repository ? 22:29 JohnnyComeL8ly Obani, I'm thinking more about the git clean -xf cmd 22:29 Obani too late 22:29 Obani already compiling 22:29 JohnnyComeL8ly Oh, well. 22:44 Obani Still doesn't work 22:46 Obani (And still same errors) 22:48 JohnnyComeL8ly Try getting a completely fresh clone... I don't know for sure how to get a clean source. 22:48 RealBadAngel make new folder 22:48 JohnnyComeL8ly (So that is what gives 'til somebody helps) 22:48 RealBadAngel and grab the sources 22:49 RealBadAngel unzip them there 22:49 RealBadAngel and make sure youre compiling with -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 22:50 RealBadAngel this ways each folder you will get working mt 22:51 Obani RealBadAngel, still doesn't work 22:51 RealBadAngel paste bin output you get 22:51 Obani Already did it 22:51 Obani It was this http://pastebin.com/M9rQhpqi 22:51 Obani (I used --trace 22:53 RealBadAngel skip trace 22:54 Obani lol 22:54 Obani Ok xD 22:54 RealBadAngel idk just a guess 22:54 Obani Loaded texture: /home/obani/minetest/games/minetest_game/menu/header.png 22:54 Obani :D 22:56 Obani (no offense to you, I just tell that I have those same errors since some hours) 22:58 JohnnyComeL8ly I'm gonna switch to Xubuntu and try a fresh compile. 22:59 RealBadAngel Obani, i cant see any errors just warnings 23:00 Obani Yes, I noticed that 23:00 VanessaE current HEAD builds and runs fine for me on xubuntu 15.10. 23:00 VanessaE sound too. 23:01 RealBadAngel maybe deps then 23:01 Obani I'm not on xubuntu 23:01 Obani NO IT'S NOT DEPS 23:01 VanessaE it still may be, if some lib is too old or too new for MT to use. 23:02 Obani sorry night affects me 23:02 Obani VanessaE, So MT is not abled to work on Debian stable 23:02 RealBadAngel are you a vampire or what? :P 23:02 VanessaE Obani: I could easily go check that... 23:03 VanessaE clone... 23:03 RealBadAngel github check will fail then.... 23:04 VanessaE building... 23:04 RealBadAngel obani can you pastebin output of cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=1 ? 23:05 Obani RealBadAngel, do I have to recompile it again ? 23:05 VanessaE no probs compiling. 23:05 RealBadAngel delete cmakecache.txt 23:05 RealBadAngel and call cmake again 23:05 VanessaE (not gonna run it though, too lazy to set up a proper test environ) 23:06 Obani http://pastebin.com/SjG0daMP 23:06 Obani Ah 23:06 Obani ok wait 23:07 RealBadAngel VanessaE, btw have you saw mt logo as mesh? 23:07 VanessaE no 23:07 Obani RealBadAngel, here it is http://pastebin.com/1szuA5vi 23:09 RealBadAngel Obani, now compile it again and log please 23:09 VanessaE lgtm 23:09 RealBadAngel VanessaE, it was posted on the forums lately 23:09 VanessaE RealBadAngel: link? 23:10 Obani VanessaE, WIP mods 23:11 RealBadAngel im still lookin, some weird place it was 23:12 RealBadAngel https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7034 23:12 RealBadAngel yeah 23:13 RealBadAngel the problem is the model is textured somehow weird 23:13 VanessaE ah 23:13 RealBadAngel i need the mesh as an obj and with texture 23:14 RealBadAngel i want it to spin in main menu, in the background 23:14 Obani This model ? 23:14 Obani That would look a bit weird IMO 23:15 RealBadAngel and yes, i do have code for meshes in the formspecs 23:15 VanessaE RealBadAngel: pulling from the textures the current texture pack uses, I hope ;) 23:15 * VanessaE imagines an HDX version of that logo 23:16 RealBadAngel main menu should be something bigger than hard to point set of burried options 23:17 RealBadAngel what we do have atm is nothing like a main should look like 23:17 Obani I agree with that, but a single mesh turning in the background would look a bit special ^^ 23:18 RealBadAngel Obani, im a demoscene coder 23:18 RealBadAngel leave that to me, please 23:18 Obani BUT 23:19 VanessaE no buts :) 23:19 Obani a 3d land like MT mesh with animated things on it looping would be cool ;) 23:19 Obani But much more difficult to make :p 23:19 RealBadAngel i havent said that mesh will be everthin 23:19 RealBadAngel i said i just need it 23:20 Obani Also, what are the plans for graphical enhancements on MT ? 23:20 RealBadAngel client side mods 23:21 Obani "graphical" 23:21 RealBadAngel before that you can try server side ones 23:21 RealBadAngel like water or lava 23:21 Obani client-side mods : mods are requested by server and then used by client ? 23:25 Obani RealBadAngel, still the same http://pastebin.com/3XkKtk3s 23:26 RealBadAngel Obani, client side mods means, chosen by client and server indenpenent 23:27 RealBadAngel like texture packs 23:27 VanessaE RealBadAngel: it also means server sends mod code to be run on the client. 23:27 Obani RealBadAngel, so that would enable cheat ? 23:28 RealBadAngel for starters i think once executed mods, on startup should be enough 23:28 RealBadAngel just to modify nodedefs 23:29 RealBadAngel security is another problem and i dont have any opinion on that atm, not my focus 23:30 RealBadAngel jeija's proof of concept allows dtime run mods 23:31 Obani Well, add a server security in MT.conf would be the first step 23:31 RealBadAngel i really wonder why that code went unnoticed for 2 yrs 23:31 Obani enable_mods = default wool fire ... ... 23:32 RealBadAngel Obani, i wont talk about securtity, i do care only what i can alter client side regarding rendering 23:32 RealBadAngel i do need that code for client side shaders 23:33 RealBadAngel what ive coded water and lava shaders propably wont go in into main repo 23:33 nrzkt VanessaE i think first step is only customizing things like gui, it's better to have a separated world first time before having an API permitting to hack every client without restriction :p 23:34 RealBadAngel its much of an artistic vision than a voxel one, so i need to make a way clients use it on their choice 23:34 RealBadAngel client side modding is just a proper way to achieve that goal 23:35 RealBadAngel and not only me will use it 23:35 TeTpaAka Is there anyone around who could help me with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2738 ? 23:36 RealBadAngel make Taoki test it 23:37 RealBadAngel hes the one to wash it out 23:37 TeTpaAka I don't know if he tested it. I already showed it to him and he commented on it. 23:38 RealBadAngel commented that he would love it to have 23:38 RealBadAngel make him test it actually 23:38 RealBadAngel Creatures mod will benefit that change a lot 23:39 RealBadAngel also players crouching too 23:39 TeTpaAka That would be out of scope for the pull 23:39 RealBadAngel but will allow that 23:39 TeTpaAka And the pull works, that is not the problem 23:39 TeTpaAka The problem is the hackiness of the code 23:40 TeTpaAka It enlarges a problem of the positioning of the player 23:40 TeTpaAka The player model has an offset to the mob models 23:40 TeTpaAka It doesn't stand on (0, 0, 0) has that point in the chest area. 23:40 RealBadAngel if it works as intended thats not a hack 23:40 RealBadAngel just a black magic ;) 23:41 TeTpaAka The problem is, that for the mod programmer it is completely opaque, why he needs to offset the player model when he uses the same model as for mods 23:42 TeTpaAka Ideally he would use the same models 23:42 TeTpaAka But this would break every existing mod that relies on these features. 23:42 RealBadAngel docuemnt the differences 23:42 RealBadAngel and mark whats needed as TODO 23:42 TeTpaAka I didn't introduce any differences. These differences already exist. 23:43 RealBadAngel so mark them