Time  Nick          Message
04:48 Sketch2       https://www.grc.com
04:55 hmmmm         uhm... yes?
05:26 hmmmm         https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/c2d23ff9ccf04dd0e4c2ba8a8026857c034bc947   will push in 30 minutes
05:26 hmmmm         ptal if you'd like
06:44 OldCoder      I have been debugging for hours. Is anybody able to explain why mts files placed even in an empty world with just minetest_game might not appear?
06:46 hmmmm         if the schematic file path is absolute, it will use that path.  otherwise, the schematic file path is assumed to be relative to the current mod path.
06:47 OldCoder      There are no error messages. The mtschemplace command says placed the mts. However, it does not appear.
06:48 OldCoder      Worked for a 1GB mts file the other day
06:48 OldCoder      However, multiple slightly smaller mts files behave as indicated above
06:49 OldCoder      Issue has actually occurred for a year, with different git-current sources along the way
06:49 OldCoder      Current minetest_game, no other mods but worldedit, and empty world
06:50 hmmmm         dunno, it seems to work for everyone else, maybe they can help debug your problem
06:50 OldCoder      I suspect it does not work for everyone else; i.e., not that many people load large mts files. However, thank you.
06:51 OldCoder      I will confirm this suspicion by seeing if anybody else will try to load specific mts files from the forums. My guess is that nobody has tried to do so for a year but me.
06:51 hmmmm         well, file a bug report and upload the failing schematic somewhere
06:51 OldCoder      Yes; once I have confirmed that the problem occurs for others.
06:55 nrzkt         hmmm: why https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c2d23ff9ccf04dd0e4c2ba8a8026857c034bc947 ?
06:56 hmmmm         because it hasn't been used by anybody for years and it's silently sucking about 2.5 microseconds of execution time
06:56 hmmmm         probably more on other peoples' slower processors
06:57 nrzkt         good :)
06:57 hmmmm         it's not a lot but it adds up when people have these calls inside of loops
06:58 nrzkt         it's right, profiler make game a little bit slow sometimers and should be enabled on debug builds, not release i think
09:27 johnwayne1986 Hi all!
09:30 johnwayne1986 When I try the unit tests with the latest commit, the test readF1000(is) == 53.534f at test_serialization.cpp:299 fails. Can somebody confirm this? Is this meaningful? (Just wanted to tell you that I noticed that.)
10:04 kahrl         johnwayne1986: the tests pass on my machine
10:04 kahrl         it might depend on the FPU rounding mode or whatever though
10:04 johnwayne1986 interesting...
10:05 kahrl         the original version of that test was UASSERT(fabs(readF1000(is) - 53.534f) < 0.005);
10:06 kahrl         I wonder why it was changed
10:08 kahrl         the commit message of 42cf5e972d says it should be safe to do an exact comparison, but I don't understand exactly why
10:08 kahrl         hmmmm: ^
10:16 johnwayne1986 so, I get: f: 53.534, diff: 3.8147e-06
10:29 nanepiwo      could someone pls reopen #2985 ?
10:29 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2985 -- Player's direction of view pitches up slightly when clicking
10:40 nore          nanepiwo: see my comment on #2985
10:40 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2985 -- Player's direction of view pitches up slightly when clicking
10:51 kahrl         johnwayne1986: sorry for the delay, had to shower & eat and have to leave now, but just so hmmmm has the info when he comes back: what is your OS/compiler?
11:01 johnwayne1986 I have to leave as well in a few minutes or so...
11:03 johnwayne1986 I use LMDE 1, which is outdated and supported with security fixes only. Compiler is g++ 4.8.2.
11:06 johnwayne1986 If I run 'file minetest' it tells me: minetest: ELF 64-bit LSB  executable, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.32
11:07 johnwayne1986 I am running 3.11-2-amd64 though. Is the output 2.6.32 normal?
11:50 kahrl         johnwayne1986: the "for GNU/Linux 2.6.32" is from the PT_NOTE section of the executable and the value depends on what --enable-kernel option was given when glibc was built
11:54 TenPlus1      Hi folks
11:56 TenPlus1      Question. is gui_scaling in minetest.conf meant to be server specific ??
12:00 kahrl         TenPlus1: it's a client setting
12:00 nanepiwo      @tenplus GUI_scaling is client side, for any formspecs (like main menu and in multiplayer servers)
12:01 TenPlus1      I read the gui_scaling setting and it always reads the server's setting, never the client
12:01 TenPlus1      so personal scaling for hud always appears at 1.0
12:03 TenPlus1      am using: local gui_scale = tonumber(minetest.setting_get("gui_scaling"))  .. am I doing something wrong ?
12:05 kahrl         minetest.setting_get reads serverside settings, yes
12:05 kahrl         client settings are generally not sent to the server
12:05 TenPlus1      so the gui scaling is useless unless you are playing singleplayer
12:06 kahrl         why useless? it's applied to all formspecs automatically
12:06 TenPlus1      formspec yes, hud display no...
12:07 TenPlus1      there is no way for a mob to read player gui_scaling to assist in hud output...
12:07 TenPlus1      *mod
12:07 kahrl         it's not applied to hud? that might be a bug
12:07 TenPlus1      that's the point though, I want to be able to scale up HUD graphics for HD and 4k screens but cannot access player scaling setting...
12:09 kahrl         well the proper solution would be to apply it to hud in the client, not to do it serverside
12:10 TenPlus1      not possible if conencting to server...
12:10 kahrl         I mean in the C++ code
12:11 TenPlus1      oh, gotcha...
12:12 TenPlus1      maybe I could put in a github issue to read it always from client
12:13 TenPlus1      or have a personal minetest variable for the machine it's run on with scaling number itself
12:17 RealBadAngel  agree, only way is to do that client side
12:17 RealBadAngel  server dont need to know actual clients resolution at all
12:17 TenPlus1      agreed...  will post github issue for that one
12:17 TenPlus1      thanks
15:41 paramat       RealBadAngel #3073
15:41 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3073 -- tileable_{horizontal,vertical} flags cause fps decrease
15:43 paramat       nore sfan5 game#640
15:43 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/640 -- Fire: Slow down spread and reduce lua load by paramat
15:45 paramat       perhaps i'll merge game#639 later unless anyone knows a better implementation
15:45 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/639 -- Boats: Fix sinking through boat when detaching, by CProgrammerRU by paramat
15:51 kahrl         why is there special code in the shader to handle tileable_* flags at all?
15:51 kahrl         wouldn't it be enough to set TextureWrapU/TextureWrapV in the material settings?
15:51 paramat       to fix a visual glitch i think?
15:51 kahrl         most likely with no fps drop
15:52 kahrl         the glitch is the same glitch that happened with wield meshes
15:52 kahrl         I think
15:52 kahrl         I fixed that glitch by setting TextureWrapU/TextureWrapV
15:52 kahrl         to video::ETC_CLAMP_TO_EDGE
15:57 RealBadAngel  paramat, i do have fixes for that rdy
15:58 paramat       ok
15:58 RealBadAngel  when we made fsaa fixes it looks like setting uv wrapping was also enough to fix tiling issues
15:59 RealBadAngel  i have already removed that code from shaders
15:59 RealBadAngel  sidenote, its weird he noticed slowdown with it
15:59 RealBadAngel  the mechanism is here all the time
16:00 RealBadAngel  anyway, the code in question will be just gone
16:01 RealBadAngel  i will help my wife with the dinner and then prepare PRs with latest stuff
16:01 RealBadAngel  paramat: https://imgrush.com/vxfrNtQojkvy.png
16:02 RealBadAngel  now, tell me what do you think about it when its complete :)
16:03 paramat       crystals look ok themselves but it's certainly for an eye-candy fork
16:09 RealBadAngel  partially youre right, but those are named crystals already
16:10 RealBadAngel  and other hand having quite big number of ores that do actually look the same its not a candy, its eye boring ;)
16:12 RealBadAngel  anyway im lookin on ideas (and conditions to fullfill) to make crystals grow
16:12 RealBadAngel  if any of you have some please let me know
16:24 paramat       in minetest the crystals are (i think) fragments of mese blocks, so crystals growing in these natural-forming shapes is something very different
16:36 hmmmm         hmm whatever happened to est?
16:36 hmmmm         he dropped off the earth with perfect timing
16:36 hmmmm         the release is basically waiting on him alone :p
16:42 paramat       i have 2 more PRs for game, need perhaps 1 more day
16:46 paramat       also there's the tiling bug mentioned above, RBA possibly has a PR for engine.
16:47 hmmmm         great
16:48 hmmmm         hmm est is active on github but not.. here
16:48 hmmmm         wonder how the inventory replace bug is coming along
16:49 RealBadAngel  im preparing my fixes atm, gimme an hour or two
16:55 Krock         \o/ MSVCRT linking errors
17:22 RealBadAngel  hmmmm, some1 said that est31 will be off for a few days, reason unknown
18:01 est31         hmmmm, I have said I'll be away for some days
18:02 est31         but now im back!
18:02 est31         I'll fix that inventory bug, then we wait for paramat to do the release,
18:02 est31         then lets hope blockmen does a build
18:04 * Krock       tries to compile
18:09 * nrzkt       thinks est31 should go in holidays another time :D
18:09 Krock         a library uses the /MD comiler flag instad of /MT .. I think a clean build is neccessary :(
18:10 est31         nrzkt, if we went after original schedule, there would have been no problem
18:10 est31         now there is neither
18:11 * nrzkt       thinks germans works too much and should work like mexicans
18:18 hmmmm         lol
18:18 hmmmm         isn't there a labor shortage in germany
18:19 est31         depends on the job I guess
18:20 nrzkt         if you work with a contract without a minimum salary like germans like to decrease their unemployment, you could earn 100$ per month for 40 hours a weak :D
18:20 est31         also part of it is self caused
18:20 nrzkt         week*
18:20 est31         we do have minimum wage nrzkt
18:21 est31         since this year
18:21 est31         or the year before
18:21 est31         but the great coalition that took over gvt in 2014 promised minimum salaries
18:21 est31         was demand of the SPD
18:22 est31         germandy does have doctor shortage on the countryside
18:23 est31         many german doctors go to norway or switzerland where they are better paid
18:23 est31         or just stay inside the cities
18:23 * Krock       misses the swiss german in hospitals...
18:24 est31         lol
18:26 Krock         est31, win32 build is coming in ~1 min, if interested
18:27 * Krock       slaps himself after noticing the actual release was meant
20:40 paramat       nore sfan5 i'd like to merge game#639 very soon, any objections? also any comments on game#640 ?
20:40 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/639 -- Boats: Fix sinking through boat when detaching, by CProgrammerRU by paramat
20:40 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/640 -- Fire: Slow down spread and reduce lua load by paramat
20:40 sfan5         639 is fine
20:43 paramat       apart from those there are also 2 PRs coming from RBA then that's everything
21:32 paramat       now merging game 639
21:37 paramat       merge complete
21:38 nrzkt         paramat: you add many empty lines....
21:40 paramat       yes separating functions with 2 newlines for clarity
22:00 rom1504       why not 5 newlines
22:01 RealBadAngel  paramat, #3079
22:01 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3079 -- Remove use of engine sent texture tiling flags - theyre no longer needed by RealBadAngel
22:01 RealBadAngel  thats for the engine
22:01 est31         RealBadAngel, why are they no longer needed now?
22:01 est31         also is the bug from cheapie still fixed?
22:01 est31         s/from/reported by/
22:02 RealBadAngel  theyre no longer needed becaue setting UV clamping in the material is enough
22:03 est31         is that done by the pr?
22:03 RealBadAngel  kahrl solution for fsaa bug solved also problems with tiling
22:03 est31         ok
22:03 RealBadAngel  in this pr i removed code that did the same in shaders
22:03 est31         so are the tiling flags totally unneccessary?
22:04 est31         or do they serve some purpose?
22:04 RealBadAngel  absolutely no
22:04 RealBadAngel  theyre needed
22:04 RealBadAngel  based on them material is configured
22:05 RealBadAngel  what was not needed is shaders doing it again
22:05 est31         ok
22:06 RealBadAngel  theres also the code that generates the textures flag - it should also be changed
22:06 est31         how
22:06 est31         ah
22:06 est31         you mean the code that sends the #defines?
22:06 est31         err
22:06 est31         the code that generates the texture flags texture?*
22:06 RealBadAngel  no, i mean the code that generates the texture for shaders with flags
22:07 RealBadAngel  yes, but i do believe its harmless now and i would like to use it for another purposes
22:07 est31         ok
22:08 RealBadAngel  thats why i left it unchanged
22:08 RealBadAngel  i wil make now two PRs for the game
22:09 paramat       ok
22:27 RealBadAngel  paramat, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/641
22:27 RealBadAngel  first one
22:31 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/642
22:31 RealBadAngel  and the second
22:47 RealBadAngel  ouch, minetest doesnt have marble and granite, fixing 642 now
22:49 VanessaE      so I don't recall seeing where you said what happens if a user switches to some other texture pack which doesn't supply all the normalmaps.  do these get used then?  or only the ones their texture pack supplies?
22:51 RealBadAngel  if some1 wants to use displacement mapping he needs to get tp pack that supports it
22:52 VanessaE      let me rephrase that
22:52 RealBadAngel  i know what you mean
22:52 VanessaE      if some texture pack has NO normals at all, what gets used for normals?  nothing?  these defaults?  something pulled from the aether?
22:52 RealBadAngel  normal maps are default textures
22:52 RealBadAngel  tp that does not support them is not complete
22:53 VanessaE      FAIL
22:53 RealBadAngel  displacement mapping is core feature
22:53 VanessaE      in effect you break every texture pack in existence except for Haven
22:53 RealBadAngel  this is not texture pack
22:53 est31         grrr, there seem to be other bugs with inventory replacements too
22:54 est31         e.g. if the destination inventory is full
22:54 est31         and you take from a creative inventory
22:54 VanessaE      special handling of normals is needed - only pull normalmaps from the user's texture pack if there is a texture pack in use.
22:54 est31         it deletes one element from the destination inventory
22:54 est31         without asking
22:54 hmmmm         can players crouch in minetest?
22:54 VanessaE      hmmmm: no
22:54 hmmmm         ahh okay
22:54 est31         why
22:54 hmmmm         is that wanted
22:54 VanessaE      possibly.
22:55 RealBadAngel  could be useful
22:55 VanessaE      there is "sneak" but that really means "walk slowly and more carefully".
22:55 est31         you can sit on chairs
22:55 est31         but not very reliably
22:56 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: my point being, just about every actual texture pack in existence is going to be devoid of normalmaps.  They were never "incomplete" before, you can't go retroactively making them incomplete now.
22:57 VanessaE      not when there are 345 textures in minetest_game alone.
22:57 VanessaE      that's too much breakage.
22:57 paramat       ok
22:57 RealBadAngel  enabling displacement mapping doesnt mean selecting new texture pack at all
22:58 VanessaE      I'm not talking about that, RealBadAngel
22:58 RealBadAngel  yes you want that
22:58 RealBadAngel  for normal maps that are for core feature
22:58 VanessaE      I'm talking about if it's *already* enabled for say, several days/weeks, and the user *then* selects a texture pack that has partial support for normalmaps
22:59 hmmmm         what events are missing here that you would think is useful for a client mod?  http://fpaste.org/256506/39938718/
22:59 VanessaE      are you saying that normalmaps included with minetest_game will get used when a texture pack does not supply them?
22:59 RealBadAngel  yes, hightlight the word "partial" - it means its incomplete
22:59 VanessaE      then it's a fail
22:59 VanessaE      you can't do that,.
22:59 VanessaE      you HAVE to make sure normalmaps are always pulled from the same dir as their corresponding color texture
23:00 VanessaE      (regardless whether it's a texture pack or a mod or a game)
23:00 RealBadAngel  cant do that im afraid
23:00 VanessaE      why not?
23:00 RealBadAngel  that would break even more things
23:00 RealBadAngel  and even the features
23:01 VanessaE      for normalmaps?
23:01 RealBadAngel  ability to override normals for example
23:01 VanessaE      it would break less than what you're proposing to do now.
23:01 VanessaE      wat
23:01 VanessaE      foo/bar/blahblah.png --> foo/bar/blahblah_normal.png
23:01 VanessaE      that's all.
23:01 RealBadAngel  override_normal.png
23:01 VanessaE      anything more complicated than that breaks shit that should not break.
23:02 est31         or alternative solution, just rename all textures
23:02 VanessaE      hmmmm: what about if the player is merely punched (perhaps by a MOB) with no HP change?
23:02 est31         then there wont be breakage
23:03 hmmmm         yep got it
23:03 est31         you'll just see that texture packs wont work
23:03 VanessaE      ...
23:04 est31         but VanessaE's point is valid
23:04 RealBadAngel  lemme show you another situation
23:04 est31         until we get to the point where texture packs authors only want to change the normals, but not the original texture
23:04 est31         or only the original texture, but not the normals
23:04 RealBadAngel  you decide to use texture pack, that has partial support for textures
23:05 paramat       fallback to auto-generated normalmaps?
23:05 RealBadAngel  if you enable it, you will loose all the normal maps
23:05 VanessaE      paramat: doesn't work out so well for some textures.
23:05 est31         hmmmm, what should CSEVT_NETWORK do
23:05 paramat       yeah
23:05 est31         also, we shouldnt have keyboard and mouse input
23:05 est31         imagine android users
23:05 hmmmm         that event is triggered with the message payload any time a TOCLIENT_SCRIPT_MESSAGE is received
23:06 hmmmm         yes about that
23:06 est31         should perhaps be renamed
23:06 VanessaE      est31: call it generic HID input then?
23:06 RealBadAngel  texturing nodes in minetest engine does require 2 files, diffuse map and a normal map
23:06 hmmmm         if a mod doesn't want any inputs it's ignored
23:06 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: in other words, "so, the proposal is to make twice as much work for texture authors".
23:06 est31         we shouldnt offer apis this low level
23:06 RealBadAngel  any texture pack that wants to alter existing textures and be full, have to provide both files
23:06 hmmmm         mods have to "subscribe" to events first or else they're not even queued, saving CPU from doing useless allocations/semaphore signals
23:06 hmmmm         why not?
23:07 est31         otherwise we get to the use key not availiable on android situation
23:07 est31         just even worse
23:07 RealBadAngel  its not a proposal, its requirement
23:07 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: then the requirement needs to be re-evaluated
23:07 hmmmm         well then
23:07 VanessaE      this is NOT 0.4.13 material.
23:07 hmmmm         mod writers will need to adapt
23:07 est31         hmmmm, its not about adapting
23:07 RealBadAngel  this is core feature for the very long time
23:07 est31         its about giving mod writers a safe sandbox
23:08 est31         and not letting mod writers getting into our way
23:08 VanessaE      the vast majority of texture authors just want to change the textures, not any normalmaps, and you're requiring a skill few graphics artists possess.
23:09 VanessaE      you need to pull normals from the same dir as the texture came from or generate a "zero" image for those textures.
23:09 RealBadAngel  if texture pack creator havent made maps he should clearly state and warn user that tp DOESNT SUPPORT bumpmapping and displacement mapping
23:09 est31         hmmmm, you dont design good apis by adding such specific features
23:09 VanessaE      but what if they've created SOME but not ALL?
23:09 est31         right now formspec is very semantic
23:09 VanessaE      like they don't think e.g. gravel needs a normalmap?
23:09 est31         and thats good
23:10 hmmmm         nobody said we were going to expect mod writers to handle keys themselves
23:10 est31         e.g. you can set up an interface where you say the name of the button
23:10 hmmmm         and mouse moves
23:10 VanessaE      think cartoonish textures.  usually those won't want normalmaps at all, but the user wants normalmaps enabled for all those other mods that have them
23:10 est31         hmmmm, so why offer it to them
23:10 hmmmm         in case they need it
23:10 est31         they should give us their usecase
23:11 est31         and we build them then a custom plugin for that usecase
23:11 est31         that also works on touch
23:11 est31         otherwise we can forget porting minetest to game consoles
23:11 hmmmm         this can all be abstracted
23:11 VanessaE      est31: what about just registering *actions* rather than keys, sorta like what hmmmm already specified
23:11 est31         sooner or later every mod will require the custom input events
23:11 RealBadAngel  http://i.imgur.com/RX2BUjh.png
23:12 est31         because to work around engine bugs
23:12 est31         or whatever
23:12 RealBadAngel  are you sure that cartoonish tps doesnt need normal maps?
23:12 est31         even more people will cry out "lets do this in lua"
23:12 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: I wasn't talking about sphax..
23:12 est31         we'll get to a point where there wont be difference between hud or formspecs
23:12 est31         where its all just a big cesspit
23:13 hmmmm         there is a difference between hud and formspecs
23:13 est31         of mod incompatibilities
23:13 hmmmm         a formspec is a hud element that displays the mouse when open and accepts input
23:13 hmmmm         also formspecs are heirarchical
23:13 hmmmm         well
23:14 est31         no mouse
23:14 hmmmm         in the future that's the way it'll be
23:14 RealBadAngel  VanessaE, but anywyay even if i will agree with you, theres no way to make it working the way youre describing now
23:14 est31         thats not part of the definition
23:14 est31         mouse isnt available on touch devices
23:14 hmmmm         god dammit est
23:14 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: then the normals can't be included with minetest_game.
23:14 est31         <hmmmm> in the future that's the way it'll be
23:14 hmmmm         i understand this
23:14 est31         thats very arrogant to sa
23:14 est31         y
23:14 hmmmm         when I say "shows the mouse cursor" obviously it's going to do the correct thing on android
23:15 est31         its like if RBA said "in the future we will have that tune by the legend"
23:15 hmmmm         on android that means that touching the screen will behave like a mouse click on a gui element instead of punching a node
23:15 hmmmm         well I have a vision
23:15 RealBadAngel  VanessaE, then remove displacement mapping from the core
23:15 hmmmm         I want Hud and Formspecs to be abstracted to the point where there isn't much of a difference between them
23:15 VanessaE      ...
23:15 RealBadAngel  without those files its not needed
23:16 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: this is the realm of texture packs, not default game.
23:16 est31         hmmmm, what you propose isnt abstraction
23:16 RealBadAngel  displacement mapping is not texture pack feature
23:16 VanessaE      if you want to propose your normals as an alternate texture pack that the user can turn on, that is itself included with...something... I'm fine with thaty.
23:16 VanessaE      -y
23:16 hmmmm         from what I understand, you're afraid that if we give modders the power to detect raw clicks or whatever, they'll misuse it by hacking together their own GUI system?
23:16 est31         you propose to require mod makers to work for support specific devices
23:16 est31         supporting*
23:16 RealBadAngel  users are selecting it and reporting - that doesnt work!
23:16 est31         hmmmm, yes
23:16 hmmmm         I am saying that if they want to use low-level events, they need to be aware of the risks involved
23:17 hmmmm         if they want to be safe, they should just stick to the high-level events
23:17 RealBadAngel  because the game without those files is incomplete
23:17 RealBadAngel  not the texture pack
23:17 est31         hmmmm, current attitude has been to offer a safe sandbox for modders
23:17 hmmmm         in every GUI toolkit, the user has the ability to trigger events on mouse movement
23:17 VanessaE      the game will *always* be "incomplete", and lack of normalmaps does not make it any worse.
23:17 est31         its also the reason why we dont have version string displays
23:17 hmmmm         do you ever see people reimplementing their own gui?
23:18 est31         we are so extreme, we dont even say mods which version we run
23:18 est31         because of fear they could use it for feature detection
23:18 est31         and not detecting the features themselves
23:18 est31         what you propose is much more intrusive
23:19 hmmmm         erm, 'intrusive'?
23:20 hmmmm         I'm just making sure the power is there in case modders need it
23:20 hmmmm         I am not going to arrogantly pretend that we know better than they do
23:20 est31         client scripting is for allowing to control the camera or so, not to make minetest an interface between lua and irrlicht
23:20 RealBadAngel  also VanessaE if texture pack maker would want to change only normal map for the texture
23:20 RealBadAngel  your proposal would make it impossible
23:21 VanessaE      better to require a texture to go with a normalmap than to require a normalmap to go with a texture.
23:21 est31         hmmmm, we dont know better than they do, but thats what why the c++ level isn't final
23:21 VanessaE      if they want to only change the normals, they can copy the default textures that go with them and leave them unchanged,.
23:21 VanessaE      come on, really, that's about as far into the corner as a corner case gets.
23:22 est31         hmmmm, minetest is good because modding is easy, making it more extendible doesn't help
23:22 hmmmm         alright, I'll leave those out for now
23:22 est31         there are tons of super extendible engines with super easy languages out there
23:22 est31         take unity
23:22 paramat       RealBadAngel, is 641 tested? you know what to look for so it's best tested by you
23:23 est31         note, I'm not against an actually customizeable "gui canvas" where you can e.g. make client side terminals
23:23 est31         there you can process mouse output etc
23:23 est31         just it should be clearly separated
23:23 RealBadAngel  paramat, just enable displacement mapping with this commit and without. and look at grass
23:23 est31         as its own formspec element
23:24 est31         or "new" generic gui
23:24 RealBadAngel  without 641 grass will be messed up
23:25 hmmmm         btw we're calling the new gui "formspec" but it's definitely not going to share any resemblence to formspec
23:25 hmmmm         formspec is bad and it needs to go
23:25 est31         dunno share the opinion with you that its especially bad
23:25 est31         but shrug, if you want to replace it, go on
23:25 paramat       sure but please test it yourself as i'm unfamiliar with the glitch
23:26 est31         as long as we will have ways to maintain compatibility with old mods
23:26 est31         and the new api will be as easy to use as formspecs
23:26 hmmmm         three times, I've went to add a feature using formspec and I've been unsatisfied to the point where it made me want to scrap what it was i was working on
23:26 paramat       we'll add 642 but then please can we remove the 'tree top' normalmaps because these are cut logs and need a flat surface?
23:27 hmmmm         formspec is junk that was created to fill a very niche type of GUI form and then people expanded upon it until it became what it is present day
23:27 RealBadAngel  removing the normal map wont make it flat at all
23:27 RealBadAngel  autogen will make it bumped too
23:27 hmmmm         also formspec is not easy
23:27 hmmmm         it's confusing as all hell
23:27 paramat       ah
23:28 RealBadAngel  hmmmm, but each and every mod out there is using it
23:28 hmmmm         if we want a text-based GUI description language, let's use XML instead
23:28 hmmmm         this is one of the things i wanted to do
23:28 est31         XML is super ugly
23:28 hmmmm         there should be several frontends
23:28 est31         you need end tags
23:28 hmmmm         formspec front end, xml front end, etc.
23:28 est31         end tags bear no information
23:28 est31         ok they do
23:28 RealBadAngel  removing formspec will efectively make all mods not working
23:29 est31         but still, formspecs are straightforward
23:29 est31         why xml is shiny dynamic
23:29 paramat       well we'll sort tree tops out later, 642 can go in for relesae
23:29 est31         formspecs are the lua way
23:29 paramat       (release)
23:29 RealBadAngel  paramat, i can make that one more flat on request
23:30 hmmmm         XML was made for this exact type of bullshit
23:30 paramat       yes please if you have time, completely flat
23:30 RealBadAngel  have you actually checked how tree tops look like with it?
23:30 hmmmm         it might not be the most efficient design but there is loads of support for it
23:30 est31         hmmmm, as things to add to your list, I'd propose CSEVT_PLAYER_MOVE, CSEVT_NODE_PUNCH, CSEVT_NODE_DIG, CSEVT_NODE_PLACE
23:30 paramat       well i know they need to be flat
23:31 hmmmm         est, I have added more
23:31 RealBadAngel  paramat, https://imgrush.com/mXL-Y3TCcykB.png
23:31 est31         hmmmm, whats your new list
23:31 hmmmm         http://fpaste.org/256522/40683143/
23:31 hmmmm         so
23:31 hmmmm         just to be clear:
23:31 paramat       i'll merge 641 once you've tested it
23:31 hmmmm         client side scripting runs in a separate thread
23:31 est31         yes
23:31 hmmmm         events are posted to it
23:31 est31         yes
23:31 hmmmm         everything is asynchronous here
23:31 est31         yes
23:31 hmmmm         no laggy bullshit
23:32 hmmmm         we learned our lesson from the server modding
23:32 est31         well yeah
23:32 est31         separate thread is a good idea
23:32 RealBadAngel  paramat, 641 is made weeks ago
23:32 hmmmm         every time one of these events happen an event gets posed to the client m_script
23:32 hmmmm         the script thread executes the lua handler for this event
23:33 hmmmm         s/posed/posted/
23:33 RealBadAngel  so i believe its tested enough ;)
23:33 est31         I'd rename CSEVT_PLAYER_CHATMESSAGE ---> CSEVT_CHATMESSAGE
23:33 hmmmm         then I have some ideas for what the lua api will look like
23:33 hmmmm         by the way, do clients get individual player join/leave events?
23:33 hmmmm         probably not, right?
23:34 est31         they get it
23:34 est31         as chat messages
23:34 hmmmm         they do get it
23:34 hmmmm         yeah exactly
23:34 est31         also I think it might be possible they even get it more low level too
23:34 est31         for the f10 console completion
23:34 est31         s
23:34 hmmmm         that's what I was asking mostly
23:34 hmmmm         hmm let's see
23:34 RealBadAngel  VanessaE, atm only solution to your request would be moving all the normal maps to another folder and forcing it to be texture pack
23:34 est31         but it might be horribly hacked
23:34 est31         by the client parsing server sent messages
23:35 RealBadAngel  theres no other solution
23:35 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: then do that.
23:35 est31         hmmmm, we should add some API for completion too
23:35 hmmmm         nick completion?
23:35 est31         or command completion
23:35 hmmmm         ehh
23:35 est31         in f10 console
23:36 est31         or in the t console
23:36 RealBadAngel  VanessaE, but then core feature will become broken. i would like to hear other voices on that
23:36 hmmmm         we'll see what we can do later
23:36 est31         ok
23:36 hmmmm         hrm
23:36 hmmmm         i'm not seeing a player join/leave notify packet
23:37 est31         the f10 console does maintain such a list
23:37 est31         so it seems it parses it...
23:37 hmmmm         are you sure??
23:37 est31         no
23:37 hmmmm         I am not seeing it
23:37 hmmmm         well nevermind that
23:38 paramat       okay will merge 641
23:39 hmmmm         let's not discuss anything more until i get this portion done
23:39 est31         what portion
23:39 hmmmm         the amount of discussion about a feature is inversely proportional to how fast it actually gets done
23:39 hmmmm         just the basic
23:40 est31         we should discuss before there is an implementation
23:40 hmmmm         my first goalpost is to have the server send client scripts as media, client loads them, and posts scripting events to them
23:40 est31         otherwise the implementation might be wasted
23:40 hmmmm         we already agree on what i'm doing so far
23:40 est31         yes
23:41 hmmmm         so right now I just need to add in the event hooks
23:41 hmmmm         and then I'm pretty much done
23:41 est31         ok
23:41 hmmmm         but I'd rather focus on getting 0.4.13 out
23:41 est31         agreed
23:42 hmmmm         less talking more doing
23:43 est31         well, I do have PRs around that can be merged sooner or later
23:43 est31         e.g. my utf chat pr
23:43 hmmmm         how about 3058
23:44 est31         #3058
23:44 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3058 -- Modstore: show an ui error if retrieving failed by est31
23:44 est31         I don't think we should add http_response_code to the exception object
23:45 hmmmm         why
23:45 est31         a JsonFetchException is just noting that something went wrong during fetching json information
23:45 est31         it might be a wrong http code
23:45 est31         it might be dns failure
23:45 hmmmm         so if it's 0 then that means it wasn't a failure at the http level
23:46 est31         or just the returned thing isnt json
23:46 est31         also what would it use us
23:46 hmmmm         i just want there to be a friendlier message
23:46 hmmmm         can't you make it say
23:46 est31         I'd go with what VanessaE proposed
23:46 hmmmm         "Oops!  Sorry about that, mmdb seems to be having problems right now."
23:47 est31         "Sorry but there was a problem with loading the modstore. Its technical message, which you should include in error reports, is:"
23:47 hmmmm         no don't do that
23:47 hmmmm         you're going to encourage useless bug reports for a website 404 error
23:48 hmmmm         this is why I want to know if it's an HTTP error vs. some other kind of error I guess
23:48 est31         perhaps we should point out then that the modstore might be offline because of choice?
23:48 hmmmm         is it some operational problem or is it an engine problem
23:48 est31         then a bool vale suffices
23:48 est31         is_http_404
23:48 hmmmm         i do NOT want our github to get spammed with operational problems
23:49 hmmmm         no, is_http_error probably
23:49 est31         no
23:49 hmmmm         what if the webserver gets misconfigured and it posts 503 or something
23:49 est31         is_http_error might be a problem of the wrong request too
23:50 est31         hmmmm, what if the webserver is just simply gone, because the domain isnt hosted anymore?
23:50 est31         then its no 404
23:50 hmmmm         right
23:50 est31         it might be a dns problem
23:50 est31         or timeout
23:50 hmmmm         do we want users to file /bug/ reports over that?
23:50 est31         or tcp error
23:50 hmmmm         I want to be able to differentiate between actual bugs and imaginary bugs
23:50 est31         hmmmm, agreed
23:50 hmmmm         so
23:50 hmmmm         however that's best accomplished
23:50 est31         but we dont solve it by adding http codes to the exception
23:50 hmmmm         but right now i need to go take a shit
23:51 hmmmm         bbl
23:57 paramat       now merging game 641