Time  Nick       Message
04:21 paramat    argh! est31 is too obsessed with getting a release out on a fixed date at all costs
04:23 kaeza      well, we complained time and time again that the "it's done when it's done" release model of Minetest leaves players hanging
04:23 paramat    0.4.13 stable mtgame has been forced through with errors, my mushroom drops have been changed to a stupid system, and the essential renaming of pine tree nodes has not yet been merged. all with no discussion with me or any mtgame devs
04:24 paramat    mtgame 0.4.13 stable will have to be re-released
04:24 paramat    i will fix the mushrrom drops, est and vanessa misunderstood how it works
04:26 paramat    yeah i don't mind minetest 0.4.13 being released, luckily i had nothing essential to go in
04:27 paramat    i made a mistake with the names of pine tree nodes, these needed fixing before mtgame release, my PR is ready to go i will push it very soon
04:31 paramat    mushroom drops: digging a mushroom should always drop a mushroom (obviously), plus a variable number of spores from 0 to 3, with an average just above 1 spore, this allows a slow multiplication of mushrooms when farming, just like trees and saplings
04:32 VanessaE   paramat: didn't you see the part where the player can re-placed/re-dig the mushroom to get more spores?
04:33 paramat    ah i see, dig, place, dig, place?
04:33 VanessaE   yeah
04:34 VanessaE   the only way to solve that is either a bunch of extra on-place code, or limiting drops to 1 item(stack)
04:34 paramat    oh sorry okay this needs fixing
04:34 paramat    um a mushroom item is dropped that can't be placed?
04:35 VanessaE   no
04:35 VanessaE   at least it doesn't work that way in dan's/my mushrooms mod
04:35 VanessaE   if you do that, players can't place them decoratively.
04:36 paramat    despite my misunderstanding, est31 still rushed a release with no consultation with devs or myself, charlie brown says 'oh good grief!'
04:37 paramat    okay this needs work then, what was commited was not good enough
04:37 VanessaE   I still say the junglewood textures need to go in too
04:37 paramat    yes sure
04:38 paramat    another couple of days and we re-release mtgame 0.4.13
04:38 paramat    when i see another mtgame dev i'll ask for the 0.4.13 tag and release to be reverted
04:39 paramat    mtgame release is not usually on the same day
04:40 paramat    the day for release is 'the right time' not a fixed arbitary date, otherwise we have broken releases
04:44 paramat    don't worry about aliases not being transative, pine nodes have only ever been in 0.4.12dev so they can be renamed freely, we don't really need the aliases at all, those were just to be extra nice to players =)
04:44 VanessaE   we need aliases :)
04:45 VanessaE   my Basic world tons of such nodes in use
04:46 paramat    sure, i mean for pine nodes
04:47 paramat    anyway i support a continued feature freeze, we need it, i was hoping for a really long freeze this time
05:09 paramat    okay lets have 2 types of mushroom, only the type grown by abm will drop spores, the picked one is sporeless
05:10 VanessaE   use meta for that.
05:10 VanessaE   like placed leaves
05:10 VanessaE   if placed:  dig gets no drops
05:10 paramat    meh don't like metadata
05:10 VanessaE   on the other hand, wild grass and jungle grass work the way est set for the mushrooms
05:11 VanessaE   you can place-dig-... over and over until you've converted the grass into seeds
05:11 VanessaE   (and you have no grass then)
05:11 paramat    sure but that only gives seeds for another crop, so is less cheaty =)
05:12 VanessaE   well that was the idea I was suggesting for mushrooms too
05:12 VanessaE   guess it didn't end up so.
05:13 paramat    hmmmm, please can you revert the release of mtgame 0.4.13? so that players don't start filling longterm worlds with the wrongly named pine nodes
05:14 paramat    we need a couple more days to fix important stuff
05:14 hmmmm      well i don't think we came to a complete consensus on it but I think we're moving to a model where even version numbers are bugfix releases and odd versions are feature releases
05:14 hmmmm      so it's like a tick-tock model of development
05:15 paramat    meh players will see mtgame 0.4.13 and think 'stable!'
05:15 hmmmm      so i don't necessarily think that calling what we have right now "0.4.13" is that bad, so long as throughout this -dev cycle we focus on improvements and bugfixes only
05:15 hmmmm      we need to retrain them perhaps
05:15 hmmmm      fwiw nerzhul was against this, vanessae and est liked it
05:16 hmmmm      if you don't like it i'll count you as a nay
05:16 paramat    it was forced through without discussion and with 2 big problems, that's reason enough to revert the release
05:16 VanessaE   I favor any versioning scheme that doesn't confuse people :)
05:16 hmmmm      vanessae what do you think
05:16 hmmmm      should it be reverted or not
05:16 VanessaE   with all due respect to est, revert.
05:17 hmmmm      est doesn't take very kindly to reverts FYI...
05:17 VanessaE   or it might be cleaner to just rewrite history
05:17 paramat    i will work full time now to get it ready, just 1-2 days
05:17 VanessaE   (I know it's WAY beyond the usual time limit, but this is a special case)
05:17 hmmmm      what do other people around think about it?  kaeza?  cornernote?  RBA?  kilbith?? sfan5 i saw around earlier
05:18 hmmmm      btw what do you guys think about this https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/6a64ec4dac8c92b8435107fb6ab1bc6bb7ce1820
05:18 paramat    i'm sure est will realise his/her mistake and accept the revert
05:18 hmmmm      est is a guy
05:18 paramat    okay
05:19 paramat    est commited some texturs then removed them later?
05:19 paramat    (textures)
05:19 VanessaE   hmmmm: for that texture, see game#619
05:19 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/619 -- Better jungle wood and jungle tree top textures by VanessaE
05:19 VanessaE   paramat: yeah.
05:19 hmmmm      did he?
05:19 VanessaE   he thought he was breaking the no-features freeze rule.
05:19 hmmmm      it seems like they're not part of history
05:19 hmmmm      oh come on that obviously does not apply to minetest_game
05:20 VanessaE   I assume he force-pushed them out
05:20 paramat    that was without dev discussion too
05:20 hmmmm      the whole point of the no-features rule is to ensure stability
05:20 VanessaE   hmmmm: tell that to kilbith :)
05:20 hmmmm      a texture change isn't harming stability
05:20 hmmmm      i don't give a rats ass about textures as long as the grass is fixed to something that isn't that depressing shade of green, and gold stops looking like blocks of american cheese
05:21 VanessaE   lol
05:21 hmmmm      so it's up to what you guys think about the textures
05:21 paramat    we're almost ready with the new textures, vanessa's latest tree top is good
05:21 kaeza      that system could work
05:21 paramat    i'm planning to change the grim grass
05:21 VanessaE   I personally don't have a problem with the grass, but honestly the dirt just looks like noisy brown, to me.
05:21 paramat    i can't stand it anymore
05:21 kaeza      I'm more interested in better grass sounds
05:21 hmmmm      kaeza, ?  you mean what I proposed with the feature release/improvement release?
05:21 kaeza      ye
05:21 hmmmm      so another yay for that
05:22 hmmmm      yay: me, est, kaeza  |  nay: vanessae, paramat, nerzhul
05:22 VanessaE   eh?
05:22 hmmmm      er
05:22 VanessaE   I'm on the "yea" side.
05:22 kaeza      I think VE is a yay
05:22 hmmmm      I thought you said whichever doesn't confuse people
05:22 VanessaE   I did.
05:23 VanessaE   I don't think your idea will confuse too much
05:23 hmmmm      well okay
05:23 hmmmm      should we make a forum vote maybe
05:23 VanessaE   nah
05:23 paramat    nah
05:23 hmmmm      we're getting a very limited sample size you know
05:23 hmmmm      so just to be clear:
05:24 hmmmm      adopting the stable/feature release number scheme would mean NOT reverting the 0.4.13 version bump commits
05:24 hmmmm      or would you rather still adopt it but rollback that change
05:24 VanessaE   I'd say adopt and roll-back
05:24 VanessaE   it's the cleanest way
05:24 VanessaE   less'n someone here has a better idea
05:25 VanessaE   we all seem to agree 0.4.13 should not have hit the shelves
05:25 hmmmm      yeah
05:25 VanessaE   but then again, it hasn't hit the website yet
05:25 hmmmm      well
05:25 hmmmm      the 0.4.13 bump commit serves as the HEAD for 0.4-stable
05:25 paramat    i don't mind minetest 0.4.13 being released. but mtgame was forced through without discussion so the 0.4.13 tag/release needs removing
05:26 VanessaE   yeah I know
05:26 hmmmm      the engine needs some work before a release
05:26 hmmmm      i'm working on the delete_area fixes, rollback fixes, and adding more information about the double error
05:26 hmmmm      I think that at the very least if those things get fixed a release COULD be plausible
05:26 kaeza      to be fair, bad node names are not exactly world-breaking bugs like other things that have been added (*looks at proller* [weather])
05:26 VanessaE   so my proposal is to reset --hard to a953ff4d and carry on from there
05:27 hmmmm      yeah but
05:27 hmmmm      how many people have already checked out this version in git
05:27 VanessaE   probably a few, BUT it's a non-functional change
05:27 hmmmm      the problem with hard resetting is you screw everybody's repos
05:27 VanessaE   other than a couple flags in CMakeLists anyway
05:27 hmmmm      well
05:27 hmmmm      it can't be more than a few
05:28 hmmmm      kaeza, are you on board?  paramat?
05:28 VanessaE   I know, but it's not impossible to force-pull or just re-clone if your repo goes wonky
05:28 paramat    erm let me reread
05:28 hmmmm      we're going to reset to HEAD^2
05:29 kaeza      hmmmm, I have no problems with resets. also, a 1 day reset is not that of a big deal really
05:30 kaeza      if it's even 1 day
05:30 hmmmm      here we go then
05:30 paramat    yeah rollback the 0.4.13 bump
05:30 VanessaE   kaeza: exactly, and it's only been 8 hours anyway
05:31 VanessaE   hmmmm: inb4 kilbith complains ;)
05:32 hmmmm      ooh
05:32 hmmmm      git push -f upstream master
05:32 hmmmm      that -f.
05:32 hmmmm      that does not happen often.
05:32 hmmmm      it's done
05:33 kaeza      inb4 -f means --fuck-up
05:33 hmmmm      -f is the short flag for --fuck-upstream
05:33 VanessaE   lol
05:34 paramat    mtgame doesn't have a bump commit, just a tag and entry on the releases page
05:34 hmmmm      for what it's worth, you guys can do anything you want to minetest_game
05:34 hmmmm      just don't screw it up
05:34 hmmmm      there's no special restrictions
05:35 paramat    yeah i just don't know how to remove that release entry and tag =)
05:35 paramat    anyway now to sort it out..
05:35 hmmmm      here ya go
05:35 hmmmm      https://www.google.com/search?q=git+delete+tag+remote
05:37 paramat    thanks, this will need to be done before i push the next commit?
05:37 hmmmm      i don't think so no
05:37 paramat    okay will do so anyway
05:39 hmmmm      https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/18cfd89a86af550b3c4663def77a5fac46e895ae
05:39 hmmmm      PTAL
05:39 paramat    soon after that i will push the corrected pine node names, then vanessa's tree top and kilbith's dark planks, then will work on mushroom farming
05:40 hmmmm      can you also add the light grass texture back
05:40 hmmmm      that's really annoying but i learned to accept it
05:40 paramat    and yes
05:40 paramat    new grass
05:40 VanessaE   light grass texture pack?
05:40 hmmmm      every time i update minetest_game i need to fix it
05:40 VanessaE   back*
05:40 VanessaE   hmmmm: good idea regarding the mem usage
05:41 hmmmm      yeah
05:41 hmmmm      it's actually quite variable on my system
05:41 hmmmm      sometimes it's 512MB
05:41 hmmmm      others it's ~1980 MB
05:41 paramat    i made a bright new grass recently based on the current one https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/560 what do you think?
05:41 hmmmm      yeah I think that's an improvement
05:42 paramat    it's colour, brightness and contrast matched to what came before
05:42 hmmmm      RealBadAngel's comment is the real solution but the thing is that comes along with client-side biomes
05:42 VanessaE   paramat: +1
05:42 hmmmm      i.e. not a thing we can do right now
05:44 hmmmm      paramat:  did you look at my commit?
05:44 * paramat  looks
05:45 paramat    useful feature
05:46 hmmmm      +1??
05:46 paramat    yes
05:46 hmmmm      ok :)
05:46 hmmmm      push complete
05:48 VanessaE   what's the disposition of game#581 ?
05:48 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/581 -- New stairs and slabs discussion
05:49 paramat    i'd like steelblock added
05:49 paramat    we need at least one ption for modern stairs
05:49 hmmmm      heh this reminds me of terasology's setup
05:49 paramat    (option)
05:49 hmmmm      each mapnode has a material and a block type
05:50 hmmmm      can't help but think that ours is kind of inefficient and repetitive
05:50 VanessaE   it is.
05:50 hmmmm      well we're not going to fix that without splitting up param1
05:50 hmmmm      err, i mean param0
05:50 hmmmm      that's the tough part
05:50 VanessaE   the only reason dreambuilder has over 16'000 nodes is because it's stair-this and slab-that and colored-this-other-thing
05:51 hmmmm      i dunno, maybe
05:51 hmmmm      the longer we go the more pressure there is to move to an 8-byte mapnode structure
05:51 hmmmm      and, man, trust me I am not going to waste 3 of those bytes on something as pathetic as colored lighting
05:51 VanessaE   8 byte for alignment purposes?
05:51 hmmmm      of course
05:51 hmmmm      we don't really have much of a choice..
05:52 hmmmm      if you increase the structure by 1 bit it's going to be now 8 bytes
05:52 VanessaE   regarding colored lighting, seems to me you could just use *one* byte as an index into a color lookup table.
05:52 VanessaE   (not unlike the idea you had for generic colorized nodes)
05:52 paramat    i don't see coloured light as all that important, or needed
05:52 hmmmm      not only that
05:52 hmmmm      but if i were going to do colored lighting, i'd rather fix the minetest lighting algorithm first
05:53 VanessaE   yes
05:53 VanessaE   RBA will want to have a hand in that
05:53 hmmmm      that's what's really needed rather than monkey patching individual color channels into the central data structure of the game
05:53 VanessaE   still this is out of scope for now
05:53 hmmmm      well i still need to come up with the lighting algorithm
05:53 hmmmm      it's tough
05:53 hmmmm      yeah all this is future talk
05:53 hmmmm      but think about it, if we doubled the size of a mapnode, what things would you use it for
05:54 VanessaE   well 4 bytes is a lot of space given the sort of constraints we're working with, so .. I dunno
05:55 VanessaE   alternate nodes.
05:55 VanessaE   that's the first thing that comes to mind.
05:55 VanessaE   1 bit stored somewhere that will switch in an entirely different node def for that spot
05:56 VanessaE   (for the mesecons/furnaces/et al. use case)
05:56 hmmmm      how do furnaces work right now again?
05:56 hmmmm      i forget
05:56 VanessaE   they swap in a new def manually.
05:56 VanessaE   minetest.swap_node()
05:56 VanessaE   which may as well be read-meta, minetest.set_node(), rewrite meta.
05:56 hmmmm      ah
05:57 VanessaE   mesecons is similar.
05:57 hmmmm      yeah, we'll see what we can do
05:57 hmmmm      I think that's already quite doable tbh, if param1 is stolen
05:57 VanessaE   it is yes
05:57 hmmmm      we just need somebody to work on it
05:57 hmmmm      man this is depressing
05:58 hmmmm      all the NetworkPacket handler routines lack PacketError exception handlers
05:58 hmmmm      you can crash any minetest client right now by sending a packet with an invalid length
05:59 hmmmm      crash, as in stop it from running, but thankfully no remote code execution or arbitrary memory reads or anything bad like that
05:59 hmmmm      you know, if the minetest gaming community had users that were just 5% smarter than they are right now there would be havoc
06:00 hmmmm      thanks nerz
06:06 VanessaE   hmmmm: come to think of it, what harm would there be in partially adopting terasology's model?
06:06 VanessaE   regarding block types and materials
06:06 hmmmm      nothing, i think it might be a decent idea
06:06 hmmmm      but you'd also have a lot of irrelevant combinations for one-of node types
06:07 VanessaE   for example?
06:07 hmmmm      mesecons with the grass material?
06:07 hmmmm      lol.
06:07 VanessaE   haha
06:07 VanessaE   right
06:08 VanessaE   well I was thinking, one new byte for the material (index into a table that a mod can add to/change), one byte for the model/block type (if 0, refer to the node def's drawtype)
06:09 VanessaE   block type could even indicate different tables for different drawtypes for that node
06:09 hmmmm      ha..
06:09 hmmmm      maybe...
06:09 hmmmm      okay how about this setup
06:09 hmmmm      MAX_CONTENT is still at 32k right?
06:10 VanessaE   yeah
06:10 hmmmm      we'll steal the top bit
06:10 hmmmm      if the top bit is set, that means that param0 is a block type/material pair
06:10 hmmmm      the low 8 bits of param0 will be the block type
06:10 hmmmm      and then the top 7 bits will be the material
06:10 hmmmm      yea?
06:10 VanessaE   I like it.
06:10 hmmmm      there you go, it's even reverse compatible
06:11 hmmmm      will 128 materials be enough for you though?
06:11 VanessaE   well worst-case in any mod I've ever written, only about 90 unique nodes for a given shape
06:11 VanessaE   (unified dyes-related stuff)
06:12 hmmmm      so which is needed more
06:12 hmmmm      more materials or more shapes
06:12 VanessaE   hm
06:12 VanessaE   you know, I'm not really sure.
06:13 VanessaE   if I were to use one node per hue in a unified dyes based mod, then a given node would only need one of 6 or 7 materials
06:14 hmmmm      btw you realize this is a global number, not a per-mod number, right?
06:14 VanessaE   the "worst offender" is probably the stained glass mod
06:14 VanessaE   yeah, I'm just thinking out loud at the moment
06:15 VanessaE   more shapes than materials, it seems to me
06:16 hmmmm      okay
06:16 hmmmm      i still think 7 bits is too small
06:16 VanessaE   yeah
06:17 VanessaE   damn
06:17 hmmmm      what do you think about this
06:17 hmmmm      https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/1c408c4f1df25ecec0dd8ea8b6cb00534e08bc66
06:17 VanessaE   I don't think you'll be able to cover everyone's use cases without adding another byte to the node.
06:17 hmmmm      PTAL
06:18 VanessaE   I'm curious about the change to line 88 but the rest seems reasonable to me
06:19 hmmmm      that's there because i missed that instance when i changed the rest of them
06:19 VanessaE   (of course, in no case will a u16 ever be more than 2 bytes, so it's probably moot anyway)
06:19 hmmmm      sizeof(u16) isn't ever not going to be 2, but it's just for consistency with the rest of them
06:19 VanessaE   right
06:19 hmmmm      get into the habit of using the number literal for when you mean serialized byte lengths instead of in-memory-representations
06:21 VanessaE   damn, you don't waste any time :P
06:24 VanessaE   what about this:  steal that top bit, lower 10 bits for materials, upper 5 from there plus another 5 from another byte for shapes
06:24 VanessaE   use one of the leftover 3 bits for that special-nodedef idea
06:25 VanessaE   that least 2 bits plus another three unassigned bytes
06:25 hmmmm      yeah we can use param1
06:26 hmmmm      param1 is only ever used for torchlike
06:26 VanessaE   how are you gonna wrestle-away the lighting info from the engine?
06:26 hmmmm      well I highly doubt a transparent node needs to have variable materials
06:27 hmmmm      unless you want a grassy air node and a brick air node
06:27 VanessaE   glass stairs
06:27 hmmmm      hum
06:31 kahrl      even stairs made of a solid material have paramtype = "light"
06:31 VanessaE   right
06:31 VanessaE   otherwise they'll be black.
06:32 hmmmm      oops
06:32 kahrl      anyway I did a quick valgrind run and it showed two problems
06:32 kahrl      first, there is an uninitialized value in minimap.cpp:272
06:33 kahrl      second, intlGUIEditBoxes are leaked
06:34 kahrl      this should fix those issues: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/4c3f9d0f75572a93c079
06:35 hmmmm      looks good to me
06:35 kahrl      pushing.
06:39 hmmmm      :)
06:40 kahrl      gah, that typo in the commit message is going to haunt me forever :P
06:41 hmmmm      5 minute rule
06:41 hmmmm      you can still amend that commit
06:41 kahrl      alright. I didn't see it as important enough but I'll do it :)
06:47 paramat    actually i do have an essential engine PR to go in before 0.4.13 #3020 can anyone approve? will push when i rename pine nodes in mtgame
06:47 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3020 -- Treegen: Rename pine tree mapgen alias by paramat
06:48 hmmmm      that i think is fine
06:48 hmmmm      go ahead
06:48 paramat    thanks
06:49 VanessaE   paramat: wait a sec...
06:50 paramat    yeah
06:50 VanessaE   mmm.. nevermind
06:50 paramat    lol
06:51 paramat    will push 3020 and game#617 very soon
06:51 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/617 -- Default: Rename pine tree nodes, textures and mapgen aliases by paramat
06:55 paramat    since there's still much to do in mtgame i'd like roughly a week before releasing 0.4.13
06:55 VanessaE   at least.
07:03 hmmmm      no problem
07:04 VanessaE   ok time for me to head to bed
07:04 VanessaE   night
07:19 nrzkt      i see a bump version but no git tag, is this normal ?
07:34 paramat    hi nore please can you remove the mtgame 0.4.13 tag and 0.4.13 release from the releases page? (see logs for why) i was going to do it myself but not confident i will do it right
07:36 nore       hm... I don't know how to do it :/
07:36 paramat    heh
07:37 nrzkt      https://nathanhoad.net/how-to-delete-a-remote-git-tag
07:37 nrzkt      look at this
07:37 paramat    i did =)
07:39 paramat    not sure if that's to be done from my master branch or from a cloned repo
07:40 paramat    anyway no rush everyone knows 0.4.13 has been reverted now
07:57 kahrl      re-tagging will screw up everyone who already pulled the tag (a lot of people)
07:57 kahrl      https://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-tag.html#_on_re_tagging
07:59 kahrl      I would just make a new tag called 0.4.13.1 or something like that
08:00 kahrl      even if it's ugly, it's a lot less hassle
08:01 kahrl      (I guess you can do that and also delete the 0.4.13 tag)
08:14 paramat    ah okay kahrl lets not retag then no problem
08:15 paramat    now pushing game#617
08:15 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/617 -- Default: Rename pine tree nodes, textures and mapgen aliases by paramat
08:23 paramat    complete, 500 commits!
08:24 sfan5      would minetest_game be ready for a releave after this?
08:28 paramat    nah still lots to do, perhaps in a week
08:28 paramat    will push #3020 when checks are done
08:29 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3020 -- Treegen: Rename pine tree mapgen alias by paramat
08:29 paramat    a week at most, maybe less
08:30 paramat    read logs for details
08:34 paramat    hmmmm is fed up with the depressing grass texture, so is cele55 and myself, i think it will need to be changed to a brighter one, or at least something more lush, i will work on it
08:37 paramat    .. and submit a dark improved one and a brighter one, maybe 3..
08:47 paramat    now pushing 3020
08:53 rubenwardy #3020
08:53 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3020 -- Treegen: Rename pine tree mapgen alias by paramat
08:54 paramat    complete
09:53 kilbith    VanessaE: reverting the textures was not about my complaints
09:53 kilbith    it was clearly a violation of the rules
09:54 kilbith    textures, especially, have to subjected to the maintainers since they highly depend on tastes
09:55 kilbith    also i agree with the devel model of hmmmm
11:38 est31      seems a 0.4.13 release is highly not wanted
11:39 est31      so we're going the irrlicht route then, no release for years
11:39 Calinou    seriously, don't let that happen.
11:39 Calinou    "release early, release often" is still very true
11:42 est31      and about ordering nodedefs by criteria: I hate this
11:42 est31      the criteria just limit how generic we are
11:42 est31      its wasted space
11:43 est31      we can do something like it, but please as mod then
11:43 est31      and without wastery
11:44 est31      e.g. criteria_lib.register_node_wood_type(pine", "pine_wood_1.png")
11:44 est31      or so
11:45 est31      I'd like to hear technical arguments which speak for such a change
11:47 est31      if we dont release, people will think this project is dead
11:48 est31      seems the windows builds done by sfan and blockmen were in vain then
11:48 est31      well, no problem, they can be re-done
11:49 nrzkt      maybe having a news field in the client could be good to show the project is not dead :p
11:49 nrzkt      and i dont' think project is dead, look at commits
11:50 est31      irrlicht has commits too
11:50 Calinou    news in the client is possible with the master server
11:50 est31      might be an idea
11:50 est31      well, its a feature, so future talk
11:50 kilbith    some people are facing a new bug : https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13001
11:51 est31      for the version after 0.4.14 or how its called
11:51 est31      heh, i guess its a deadlock thanks to one of those "race prevention" locks added
11:54 kilbith    RealBadAngel: how goes the handmade relief mapping for the default textures you were heading to do ?
11:56 nrzkt      est31: an added muted ?
11:56 nrzkt      mutex* ?
11:56 est31      perhaps, just a wild guess
11:57 est31      to fix one of the race conditions added thanks to an "optimisation"
12:00 nrzkt      some mutex were useless in the code
12:00 nrzkt      as i said when they were merged...
12:00 nrzkt      like one mutex on a getter function but no mutex in setter...
12:01 est31      they arent useless
12:01 est31      they are just creating bugs, like before already
12:01 est31      just different bugs
12:12 est31      I have tried to do a sensible discussion about what to do before the release
12:13 est31      and we ended up with "fix every medium bug in the tracker"
12:13 nrzkt      critical and very high okay, but medium can be differed
12:14 est31      even that's too much
12:14 est31      people are running around labeling every bug as critical
12:14 est31      critical bugs are ones which ruin the game for EVERYBODY
12:14 est31      not just for some person with an ATI card when they install this mod and play for 10 hours a piece.
12:16 nrzkt      for me it's medium in that case
12:16 nrzkt      but label are handled by coredevs, not users, no ?
12:16 est31      I have just tried to make a release with not more bugs as 0.4.12, and then give us time to do a bugfix release
12:18 est31      the delete_area suckery has existed since < 0.4.12
12:18 est31      no need to block everything for it
12:19 est31      ~topic
12:19 ShadowBot  est31: Minetest core development and maintenance. Feature freeze IN EFFECT until 0.4.13 release, no commits on the master branch except bugfixes or trivial (small) cleanups. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
12:19 est31      I've thought ive done something everybody wants
12:20 est31      hmmm wants to have eternal feature freeze, so let him have it
12:20 est31      others want a release, so let them have it
12:21 est31      everything would have bene fine
12:21 est31      been*
12:21 est31      what do we have now
12:22 nrzkt      est31, have you taken holidays this summer ? :
12:22 nrzkt      :)
12:22 est31      nrzkt, I'll quit doing stuff for minetest, perhaps, and let people fuck it as they wish
12:23 est31      no more changes, any day!
12:23 est31      no release for years!
12:25 kilbith    this is not what hmmmm wants btw
12:25 kilbith    he wants a linux release scheme
12:26 kilbith    we can afford weekly-released software
12:26 est31      he didnt say weekly released
12:27 est31      he and VanessaE just wanted to stop progress until every medium bug was fixed in the tracker
12:27 kilbith    bumped versioning for minor patches and so on
12:27 Calinou    to be honest, maybe we would be better off with rolling release.
12:27 Calinou    that's what Red Eclipse does now
12:27 Calinou    an updater is included in the game
12:28 Calinou    (uses curl, no GUI front-end currently)
13:01 kilbith    yet again another crash : https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13010
13:03 est31      oh, even reproducible
13:11 * VanessaE looks at est31 and kilbith and grumbles.  loudly.
13:11 kilbith    oh i love that
13:21 VanessaE   est31: 0.4.13 release is not wanted *yet*..  I told you that it was a bad idea to push it through.
13:21 VanessaE   the plan right now is to postpone it for a week or so
13:22 VanessaE   kilbith: given the number of disparaging remarks you've levied at me in public lately despite every attempt on my part to help make this a project people actually WANT to use, frankly I'm not at all inclined to accept any further criticisms from you for now.
13:23 kilbith    of course you get naturally frustrated because *your* PR was reverted, that's human
13:24 kilbith    but there are rules, it's not for our pets
13:25 kilbith    isn't that you that harassed RBA for reverting a texture that you don't liked btw ?
13:25 VanessaE   wat
13:25 kilbith    the handmade sand relief map
13:25 kilbith    and a bunch of others
13:25 kilbith    that was included in a PR
13:27 kilbith    well, all that for demonstrating how poor-standards you have
13:28 VanessaE   maybe you should talk to RealBadAngel then about that because I don't recall harassing him over such a thing
13:28 kilbith    ok, i'll dig the logs
13:29 VanessaE   if someone produces a texture or feature that's terrible, I will yell about it until they fix it or provide a way to disable it.
13:30 VanessaE   in the case of those texture maps, it's absolutely critical that they be as good as possible if they're gonna be there as a default feature.
13:31 VanessaE   and a blurry or rounded looking texture is not good.
13:31 VanessaE   as far as I can remember that's the only complaint I had with those particular textures.
13:31 kilbith    that was rather repetitive injections for reverting
13:31 VanessaE   as for my PR I understand why it was reverted, however it was apparently NOT against the rules to put it in.
13:32 kilbith    http://dev.minetest.net/minetest_game_Development
13:33 kilbith    it's not because it comes from miss ezekowitz that the rules should be tilted for her
13:33 kilbith    people had always to comply with the rules and won't change
13:34 kilbith    at the time BlockMen reverted easily commit that haven't another +1, whatever if it was minor or not
13:35 kilbith    the benevolent father of _game is gone, people are getting insolently commit-friendly
13:36 est31      yea, a benevolent father is good to have, less fighting, if things are aligned to one person's preferences
13:39 kilbith    as for the VE's injonctions for revert things she subjectively don't like : http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2015-07-13#i_4321680
13:40 kilbith    not even in a suggestive mean...
13:40 VanessaE   yeah, just as I stated
13:40 VanessaE   be was trying to push through blurry images.
13:40 kilbith    it sounded like an order
13:40 kilbith    no, it *was* an order
13:40 VanessaE   well it wasn't.  in normal english parlance, "you have got to X" used in this context means "this is terrible, PLEASE undo it"
13:41 kilbith    err, look around for the other input containing "revert"
13:41 kilbith    that's literally an harassing
13:42 kilbith    not even only for this day, not even for this channel
13:43 VanessaE   what you don't see in the logs is the the private discussions I usually have with him, sometimes others, to clarify the whole thing without polluting the public log with useless discussion
13:44 kilbith    ... and ? good strategy for re-writing the history
13:44 VanessaE   RBA has said unequivocally that my input is valuable to him.
13:44 nrzkt      VanessaE: did you use RFID or Wi-Fi for you wireless discussions ?
13:44 VanessaE   nrzkt: huh>
13:44 VanessaE   ?
13:44 kilbith    people can't check the private part, re-writing the history is easy
13:44 nrzkt      lol... i read wireless instead of useless, i need to clean my eyes :p
13:44 VanessaE   haha
13:44 * VanessaE hands nrzkt some new reading glasses :)
13:52 VanessaE   as for rewriting history, the discussion for that was entirely in public
14:02 est31      so, as we give every random person who comes along with a crash the blocker label, I've labeled some further bug reports: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/labels/blocker
14:02 est31      please complete the list with more bugs
14:42 VanessaE   celeron55, can you please weigh in on #611 ?  Let's end this damned debate about the origin of the game's jungle tree.
14:42 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/611 -- Animation blending. by blue42u
14:42 VanessaE   er
14:42 VanessaE   game@611
14:42 VanessaE   game#611 damn it.
14:42 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/611 -- Junglewood texture too light, boring
14:49 celeron55  well i prefer whatever is the most faithful to the original
14:50 celeron55  because it's one of the textures i used some time actually designing
14:51 celeron55  altough it is kind of weird 8)
14:51 celeron55  but it's my kind of weird!
14:52 VanessaE   heh
14:52 VanessaE   well in this case I meant the species that you patterned it after :)
14:53 VanessaE   see also game#619 for my proposal (I just want to replace the wood with an image kilbith came up with, and tried to derive a matching tree top)
14:53 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/619 -- Better jungle wood and jungle tree top textures by VanessaE
14:55 celeron55  well i threw a comment in there
14:55 celeron55  maybe it helps
15:21 hmmmm      jeez, delaying a release is not equivalent to never releasing
15:22 hmmmm      I already did the same thing one time and guess what, it was a disaster
15:22 hmmmm      and everybody else even supported the idea of a new release
15:34 est31      hmmmm, why do you want to delay the release?
15:34 hmmmm      because it's half-baked
15:34 est31      is there any bug thats so severe we cant release?
15:34 hmmmm      there are too many reviews
15:34 hmmmm      err
15:34 hmmmm      too many problems
15:35 est31      are there less problems, than e.g. for 0.4.11?
15:35 est31      or 0.4.10?
15:35 hmmmm      it's like serving people half-raw chicken
15:35 hmmmm      yes
15:35 est31      so LESS problems
15:35 est31      ?
15:35 hmmmm      in both of those releases we didn't know about blatant crashes or things taking down a server every 3 to 4 hours
15:36 est31      why can't it wait for 0.4.14
15:36 est31      you want to rush the bugfixes
15:36 est31      and make them inproperly
15:36 hmmmm      i don't actually understand what the reason is why there needs to be a release so badly
15:36 hmmmm      est31, out of everybody here, you're actually the ONLY one to want a release right now
15:37 est31      am I?
15:37 hmmmm      yes
15:37 est31      so then lets blow it off
15:37 hmmmm      why don't we
15:37 est31      no release until 2016
15:37 est31      until then we have freeze
15:38 est31      then minetest is proper
15:38 est31      finally
15:38 hmmmm      oh my god this is RBA level bullshit
15:38 hmmmm      come on
15:38 est31      so you want a release?
15:38 est31      yes or no
15:38 est31      and when do you want it
15:39 est31      name me a date
15:39 hmmmm      one week from now
15:39 est31      lets say two, so that we have time
15:39 VanessaE   one or two weeks -- unless we find a reason to delay again
15:39 est31      august 24?
15:40 hmmmm      whichever you prefer
15:40 est31      VanessaE, no additional delays
15:40 est31      we can have three weeks if you want
15:40 VanessaE   est31: what if some critical bug pops up right before release, as a result of another bug fix?
15:40 est31      lets determine it NOW
15:40 hmmmm      but jesus christ, it's like not only are you taking the half-cooked chicken out of the oven, but you're trying to cram it down your customers' throats
15:40 VanessaE   you know fix one, create two, that sorta thing.
15:40 est31      ok, but only new bugs
15:40 est31      not existing ones
15:41 est31      thats what you say VanessaE?
15:41 VanessaE   yes basically.
15:41 est31      ok august 23 then, people like sundays more it seems
15:42 est31      and possible delays if more critical bugs pop up
15:42 VanessaE   fine.
15:42 VanessaE   but now:
15:43 VanessaE   what's the *real* list of bugs that must be fixed by then?
15:43 est31      next thing: no bug wishlists, but actual lists which bugs we deem as "blocking"
15:43 est31      ninja'd lol :D
15:43 VanessaE   well that's actually what I was referring to
15:43 VanessaE   I saw where you tagged a lot of issues as blocker
15:43 VanessaE   I wasn't sure if some of those were so-tagged out of frustration, irritation, or legitimate.
15:44 est31      more to show that we did have crashes before
15:44 VanessaE   ok
15:44 est31      and that giving the blocker label is easy
15:45 est31      and if you just dont want to release, pressing the blocker label button is even easier
15:46 VanessaE   but that raises the question: why should a crash bug skip multiple releases?
15:46 VanessaE   rather, "if not now, when?"
15:46 VanessaE   (don't get me wrong, I understand perfectly well that some stuff can be a real bitch to fix)
15:49 VanessaE   at what point do you say "Ok, that's it - there's no way in hell we can make another release until old bugs X, Y and Z are fixed once and for all" ?
15:49 est31      that's what bugfix releases are for
15:50 hmmmm      again the whole point of it is
15:50 hmmmm      we never released while in a state where we KNEW that something was crashing, and was a common problem
15:51 est31      what are common problems in your eyes?
15:51 est31      please, github numbers only
15:51 VanessaE   hmmmm: right, however we did release in a few cases where there was an irritating, common problem that *didn't* result in a crash
15:51 VanessaE   (for example we nearly released 0.4.13 with that extruded wield mesh glitch)
15:51 est31      firefox too has a list of "known bugs" on every release
15:52 est31      but agreed, if there is a bug that makes minetest crash all 4 hours, its inacceptable
15:52 hmmmm      #3027 and #3011 at least
15:52 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3027 -- PcgRandom crashes the application.
15:52 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3011 -- Sometimes, you get "Lua: error in error handling" messages. Is the (non-handling) error caused by the engine?
15:53 hmmmm      these are really obvious bugs
15:53 hmmmm      big bugs
15:53 hmmmm      3011 is hard to track down but it happens every 3-4 hours
15:53 est31      ok, agree
15:53 VanessaE   *nod*
15:53 hmmmm      and then delete_area() needs to be fixed
15:53 hmmmm      this was introduced in 0.4.12-dev
15:53 hmmmm      *not before*
15:53 est31      delete_area?
15:53 est31      its older than 0.4.12
15:53 hmmmm      minetest.delete_area()
15:53 hmmmm      it is?
15:53 * hmmmm    goes to look
15:54 est31      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/0.4.12/doc/lua_api.txt#L1885
15:54 est31      ok, addition of 0.4.12 it seems
15:54 hmmmm      when was 0.4.12 released
15:55 hmmmm      feb 18th
15:55 hmmmm      okay so i guess you're right
15:55 hmmmm      didn't seem that long ago
15:55 est31      time flies :/
15:57 hmmmm      6/6/2013 - 11/24/2013 - 1/1/1024 - 7/6/2014 - 12/26/14 - 2/18/15 - 8/18/15
15:57 hmmmm      just looking at the timeline of releases
15:57 Calinou    1024 heh
15:58 VanessaE   Calinou: well he likes nice round numbers :)
15:58 hmmmm      5.5 months, 1 month, 6 months, 5 months, 3 months, 6 months
15:58 hmmmm      sorry 1024 just gets typed more naturally than 2014
15:58 est31      heh lol
15:58 est31      yea it does indeed
15:58 hmmmm      I really don't think that 0.4.13 is taking too long
15:59 est31      you convinced me
15:59 hmmmm      you can see there have been releases that were clearly rushed in the past and another release was made a month later to fix it
15:59 hmmmm      the thing is though
15:59 hmmmm      the general public sees our big nasty bugs
15:59 hmmmm      and they form opinions about minetest
16:00 hmmmm      the opinions are not positive
16:01 est31      what do you mean with "big nasty"?
16:01 hmmmm      crashing sort of stuff
16:02 est31      the fact that 0.4.12 generates shadow fields everywhere, which is fixed now?
16:02 hmmmm      minetest becomes known as "that minecraft ripoff that crashes every couple of hours"
16:02 VanessaE   is not fixed.
16:02 est31      further bugs of 0.4.12?
16:02 hmmmm      "hah, the chinese must've ripped off minecraft"
16:02 hmmmm      "it's so poorly made"
16:03 est31      the reviews I've seen in the internet say "minetest doesn't have the features of minecraft, but for people who like minecraft alpha, its a nice nostalgic journey"
16:03 VanessaE   I still get random, square, black shadows on my worlds from time to time.  not super-common, but occasional and out of nowhere in areas already generated.  Easily fixed with worldedit thankfully.
16:03 hmmmm      yeah
16:04 est31      admittedly, most of those reviews are outdated
16:04 VanessaE   I'd take that as a negative review frankly.
16:04 hmmmm      the shadow thing wasn't as big of a deal IMHO because it didn't /crash/
16:04 hmmmm      and it's pretty difficult to solve
16:04 VanessaE   given that we're trying to build something here that's definitely not merely "minecraft alpha/nostalgic" quality
16:04 est31      crashes are difficult to solve too
16:04 est31      quality or feature set VanessaE?
16:05 VanessaE   both.
16:05 est31      the reviewers complained about the feature set.
16:05 hmmmm      what i plan on working on next version should actually fix this for real along with any other mapchunk dependency ordering-class problems
16:05 est31      you mean after the bugfix version 0.4.14 or whatever it's called?
16:05 VanessaE   most revies I've seen, when there was a complaint, it was of a general quality nature - i.e. the game feels buggy or "laggy" (usually low FPS) or some other nebulous thing.
16:05 hmmmm      hmm
16:06 hmmmm      est, we'll do things normally for one more version
16:06 hmmmm      0.4.14 should have bugfixes/improvements for 0.4.13's new features
16:06 est31      "normally"?
16:06 hmmmm      normally as in
16:07 hmmmm      we'll resume with adding new features next version
16:08 est31      this way we never get stable
16:09 est31      we have to freeze for months, or we wont get into a state VanessaE and others deem as "bug free"
16:10 hmmmm      well
16:10 VanessaE   when did I say "bug free"?
16:10 est31      "ok for release"
16:10 est31      dunno, hmmmm said it
16:10 hmmmm      i just don't want to be embarassed if i tell somebody that i work on minetest
16:10 est31      lemme see
16:11 hmmmm      and they try it out
16:11 VanessaE   to me, "ok for release" == "no nasty, major bugs that are gonna piss off the userbase" :)
16:11 hmmmm      oh god that's my biggest fear
16:11 hmmmm      i don't want people who know me IRL to look at minetest
16:11 VanessaE   heh
16:11 hmmmm      why is my name stamped on this thing even
16:11 est31      http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2015-08-09#i_4357791
16:11 hmmmm      "hey <name> I played around with it a while, it crashed when I did X"
16:12 VanessaE   well to be fair, hmmmm, at least people who know I work on it (as a modder) are pretty happy to hear.  I'd say if that's the case, then you should be rather proud.
16:12 hmmmm      heh
16:12 hmmmm      that's because you don't work with the messy parts
16:14 VanessaE   true enough
16:14 VanessaE   BUT, the average person doesn't see the "messy" parts.
16:14 VanessaE   they just see that it works or doesn't (or fails after some time)
16:15 VanessaE   so a nasty, messy bodge like connection.cpp matters to us, but the user doesn't mind a little spaghetti as long as it tastes good.
16:16 hmmmm      they'd get a bug in their spaghetti every once in a while with that connection.cpp :)
16:16 hmmmm      that's enough to make me throw up
16:16 hmmmm      and probably a call from the health inspectors
16:17 VanessaE   lol
16:23 est31      ok hmmmm VanessaE #3031
16:23 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3031 -- Critical bugs to be fixed before 0.4.13
16:23 VanessaE   in any case you've put a ton of work into the project, and it's objectively better for it, so you should be proud at least of that much, even if the current state of the code is less than stellar.
16:28 est31      suggest further bugs
16:29 est31      but we need an actual list of bugs
16:29 est31      vague ideas are bad
16:50 est31      sigh
16:51 est31      I try to assemble an actual list of bugs to be fixed until 0.4.13, and I just get the reply "use the blocker label"
16:54 VanessaE   take the compromise: if it has a blocker label now, either add it to your list or remove the blocker label
16:55 VanessaE   and put them in a task list that can be checked off
16:56 VanessaE   (I think the markdown for that is "[ ] Fix crash foo in barBlah()" )
16:58 est31      VanessaE, do you propose additional bugs to be added?
16:58 VanessaE   not precisely.  lemme skim through the list again.
17:00 ripper93   Hello everyone. This is the channel where I can report a problem with the dev wiki?
17:01 VanessaE   ripper93: as long as it's not "I can't create an account because no kitten captcha" :)
17:01 ripper93   VanessaE: lol, never mind then.
17:01 VanessaE   ripper93: in which case, ask Calinou to create one for you :)
17:02 est31      /msg Calinou e-mail address
17:02 ripper93   VanessaE: thank you.
17:02 Calinou    hi
17:02 ripper93   est31: this means I should send my e-mail address for him in a private message?
17:03 est31      yes
17:03 Calinou    ripper93, in the PM, specify e-mail, desired username (MediaWiki will add an uppercase character automatically at the first character)
17:03 est31      and I think its her
17:03 Calinou    and whether you want an account for regular wiki, dev wiki, or both
17:03 Calinou    est31, him*
17:03 est31      ok
17:04 VanessaE   est31: how about this one: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2984
17:04 VanessaE   it's not a regression, but rather a skin compat failure
17:04 est31      it is a valid bug I agree
17:05 est31      but its rather something for github's milestone feature
17:05 est31      you like to have it, but perhaps you like to procrastinate it too
17:09 VanessaE   ok this one I can confirm:  #2964
17:10 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2964 -- right click and drag inventory bug
17:10 est31      the question is whether this is a bug
17:10 est31      e.g. whether it is actually desired behaviour
17:10 VanessaE   if it doesn't work the way users expect, it's a bug imho
17:10 VanessaE   well that's not strictly tue
17:10 VanessaE   true*
17:11 est31      just you know, pushing things back, then forth, then back again is time waste imo
17:11 est31      and at the end of the day you dont even release
17:11 VanessaE   but in this case, you try to use the feature and it just acts weird even to seasoned users. An implementation failure, you could call it since it's trying to mimic a feature in MC./
17:11 est31      even more waste
17:13 VanessaE   #2945
17:13 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2945 -- Immortal/Zombie Glitch
17:13 VanessaE   ok this one is a definite gameplay breaker.
17:13 VanessaE   but as you said, it's not new
17:19 VanessaE   I think you can close #2690 .. it's been fixed hasn't it?
17:19 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2690 -- positions of particle_spawner output not entirely accurate
17:20 est31      I think no, im not sure
17:29 VanessaE   anything else I could suggest would be among the ones labeled as blocker.
19:02 est31      hmmmm, kahrl what's your preferred way to make heaps?
19:02 est31      I want to fix this leak paramat keeps pointing to
19:02 est31      so I need to order mapblocks now by their last used time
19:02 est31      (last used for rendering)
19:03 est31      and then I've planned to delete mapblocks older than a specified amount of seconds
19:03 est31      err
19:03 est31      delete mapblocks that are over a given count
19:03 est31      e.g. 1000 mapblocks are allowed to be loaded, not more
19:04 VanessaE   est31: what about also freeing them based on distance from the player?
19:04 est31      not good
19:04 est31      a day ago you suggested to add travelnets to mtgame
19:04 VanessaE   mmhmm
19:06 VanessaE   but I am thinking more a multiplier - i.e. if max(age_seconds,0)*max(distance_meters, 0) is greater than some reasonable threshold, delete the block
19:06 VanessaE   and if the count is over 1000, delete strictly by age
19:07 est31      if you limit by count only, the leak is gone
19:07 est31      so distance metric not needed
19:08 VanessaE   true
19:09 VanessaE   but if you also limit by age and distance, you reduce the total memory in use, for example of a typical player who teleports back and forth between his/her home and mine
19:09 VanessaE   in theory one shouldn't need more than a few hundred mapblocks loaded in that case - for that user anyway
19:10 est31      travelnets are much like quotient space identifications of points
19:10 est31      the metric needs to be updated
19:11 VanessaE   in that example, the blocks' age would be fairly low, enough to keep even a large distance from exceeding the unload threshold.
19:11 VanessaE   in any case limiting it by count alone is enough for now
19:11 VanessaE   the rest can be worked out later.
19:14 hmmmm      no don't add travelnet to mtgame until the error in error handling gets fixed
19:14 VanessaE   of course, there's network bandwidth to consider - the less you keep loaded, the more you have to re-transfer as the old blocks expire.  if the client would cache the received data and only query the server for newly-changed blocks (based on timestamp, not content) then it wouldn't matter how many the client keeps on hand
19:15 est31      well yeah
19:16 VanessaE   hmmmm: agreed, though I think that was more the result of using any generic teleporter between two points on the map
19:16 est31      but that goes in the feature domain
19:16 VanessaE   (i.e. how that would affect how many blocks are loaded)
19:16 est31      hmmmm, fully agree
19:18 est31      hmmmm, does std::priority_queue sound goo?
19:18 est31      good*
19:18 hmmmm      I don't know, I guess
19:18 hmmmm      whatever works
19:18 est31      also, should I rather implement a custom type to get the comparisons, or should I implement a custom comparator
19:19 est31      I need it to store 1. the useagetimer
19:19 hmmmm      est, the thing is, mapblocks are already deleted
19:19 est31      2. the mapblock
19:20 est31      and 3. the mapsector
19:20 est31      while 1 isnt required
19:20 est31      it can be read from the mapblock already
19:20 est31      its one pointer dereference and method call
19:21 est31      hmmmm, they are, just they are deleted by time, not by how much there are
19:21 hmmmm      so do you know if that's the actual problem??
19:22 est31      I've set the time to 10 seconds, and the blocks got deleted
19:22 est31      but setting time that low is bad again, because of the server
19:22 est31      instead we should allocate as much blocks as we can, and only delete if there is no more room
19:22 est31      people can adjust it then in their settings
19:23 hmmmm      sounds good to me
20:09 TBC_x      hey, aren't the too-far-away mapblocks sitting in memory uncompressed
20:09 TBC_x      ?
20:11 est31      yes
20:11 TBC_x      why not to do all caching compressed?
20:11 est31      thats a feature
20:12 TBC_x      well... memory overuse is not a bug?
20:12 est31      I just delete them
20:13 est31      no need to do fancy compressing
20:13 est31      also its hard to find out how far away mapblocks really are for clients
20:13 est31      as they can teleport around
20:14 TBC_x      I think the most offenders are underground, never actually seen by the player
20:14 TBC_x      therefore I think that a server could use some form of occulsion culling (if that's the correct term)
20:15 est31      it is
20:15 est31      and currently the client manages it
20:15 TBC_x      oh, okay
20:17 TBC_x      is there any kind of statistics of visible vs loaded blocks?
20:19 est31      yes
20:19 est31      either turn on infostream
20:19 est31      @ least loaded blocks)
20:19 est31      (
20:20 est31      or edit map.cpp, change infostream to actionstream in  Map::timerUpdate
20:20 est31      and remove the deleted_count != 0 case for if
20:20 TBC_x      and I expect that too-far-away mapblocks deallocate their meshes
20:25 est31      its damn hard to find out what too far away means
20:26 est31      because if you have a travelnet, and teleport back and forth, you have a problem
20:26 est31      you'll need to "cut" the distance here
20:26 est31      its better to manage them based on count
20:27 TBC_x      for mapblock meshes I would say that renderable distance
20:27 TBC_x      for any meshes
20:28 TBC_x      teleportation would just skip mapblock download
20:29 est31      #3033
20:29 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3033 -- Add count based unload limit for mapblocks by est31